Concentration completely unreliable?

[Spectre9000]

So, I'm looking at a melee character using Haste. The problem is that damage between 40 and 60 depending on your constitution modifier and proficiency, pretty much guarantees a failure. A dragon wyrmling as a CR 3 can possibly deal 40 damage, though unlikely, and you don't even have Haste at level 3. From there it just gets more and more likely to see 40+ damage. Even if you get warcaster, advantage doesn't do you any good if it's impossible to roll high enough. You can't just go "well don't get hit" because you're going to get hit. It seems like using any concentration in melee is doomed to failure as soon as you cast it. How does anyone keep a concentration spell going in combat?

[Dalebert]

I think you're math is maybe off a bit. If you get hit for 40 hp at almost any level, which is unlikely as you said, then you've got more to worry about than losing concentration on a spell. Remember when a lot of dice are rolled, it becomes more and more likely to be an average roll due to the bell curve. Many DMs just use average dmg for simplicity, this one included. I can hardly remember a single time my concentration save was higher than DC 10. It's quite rare. Dmg has to exceed 20.

Most melee have prof in con saves and a decent con, usually 16+. So you're looking at +6 at level 5 and going up from there. So an average conc check save is going to have an 85% chance of success even without warcaster. If you're a gish, you likely have con save prof AND warcaster and your conc check failures will be a very rare thing, even when the DC is higher than 10, which is rare.

You are going to fail sometimes and lose a spell. That's the whole point. But I get the feeling you haven't actually seen this type of character in action much. Once you have, I think you will be more optimistic.

[RickAllison]

Like Dalebert said, taking sufficient damage to guarantee concentration failure means something has gone wrong long before that point. Really, one of the most dangerous things for losing concentration is the little attacks, because it seems like you can take an ample amount of them yet each one carries a DC 10 concentration check. Unless and until you get a +9 for your Con save, 10 attacks at four damage is both a more likely scenario, and almost as dangerous. If you only fail on a 1, you are looking at a good 60% success rate. If you fail on a 2, it goes down to 35%. On a 3, 20%. That is what your PC is looking at if you have 16 Con and just getting Haste until level 9. Oh, and don't forget that if you fail at any point, you are looking at a turn of doing nothing but being a target. If you can get a +9 for your Con save to auto-succeed your base-damage concentration saves, then you can worry about the big guys. Until that point, every attack down to cute little bunnies and puppers has a small chance of wrecking you.

[Spectre9000]

At CR 9, a Young Dragon's breath attack deals 55 (10d10) damage. That could auto break a concentration spell. It just seems when you need them most, they're going to fail because when you need them most is when you're fighting something big. Furthermore, you say you have bigger things to worry about if you take that much damage, I disagree, because it's at that exact moment you truly need that spell to recover from it. If you still had haste, you could disengage, dash, and run to get 60 feet away without any opportunity attacks, which can certainly save your life after a massive hit.

[Dalebert]

At CR 9, a Young Dragon's breath attack deals 55 (10d10) damage.

Yes. If you take that much damage, it is likely you will lose concentration spells. You're not always going to maintain concentration. That much damage is rare. Plan for the possibility always. Haste is a little risky because it has downsides for ending. On the other hand, if you made your save, you took 22 dmg which makes losing concentration unlikely if you're built for maintaining it.

Do you want absolutely zero risk of ever losing concentration? That's not what's intended. What's the point of the concentration limitation then? You're going to have to accept risk if you're an adventurer.

[Specter]

If you're not set on the character go Fighter with Abjurer, or Eldritch Knight depending on how long you want to hold on for Haste.

These will give you CON save proficiency (so you don't waste another feat), along with War Caster. You can easily have an AC of 19 (Breastplate + shield + Defense), which can become 24 with the Shield spell. If they use area damage on you, cast Absorb Elements. They should be lucky if they break your concentration.

[RickAllison]

At CR 9, a Young Dragon's breath attack deals 55 (10d10) damage. That could auto break a concentration spell. It just seems when you need them most, they're going to fail because when you need them most is when you're fighting something big. Furthermore, you say you have bigger things to worry about if you take that much damage, I disagree, because it's at that exact moment you truly need that spell to recover from it. If you still had haste, you could disengage, dash, and run to get 60 feet away without any opportunity attacks, which can certainly save your life after a massive hit.

Pro-tip: Never use Haste in a fight where you have enemies that could regularly dole out that much damage. It isn't about the concentration dropping (it sucks, but it happens and makes things interesting), it is about losing an entire turn of adjusting to the butt-whooping you just got. Different spells have different uses and optimal timing, and Haste is really bad for any time when you would expect to lose it.

Haste has its uses, and it is fantastic for dealing with mooks as the increased speed with Disengage and the AC boost makes the small fry largely unable to crack your concentration. You just really should not use it against a dragon or similar enemies. Just like you wouldn't use Cloudkill against something that doesn't need to breathe, and you wouldn't use Intelligence saving throws against a mind flayer. If you are worried about these sort of attacks, you should pick up Absorb Elements from the EEPC! It will let you halve that breath weapon damage as a reaction and I think a 1st level slot.

[Dalebert]

Excellent suggestion by Specter. Absorb Elements is a staple on all my casters who have EE as their +1.

I'm simply suggesting your title is hyperbolic. You're translating "occasionally you will lose concentration on a spell even if you're built for it" into "completely unreliable". That's quite exaggerated. Your arguments are the extreme cases that aren't common, and even then there are things you can do, e.g. use spells that help you take less damage like Protection from <element>, prepare Absorb Elements, Shield, or just avoid using concentration spells when the likelihood of failing conc checks is very high due to damage. These are decisions casters have to make that are part of the strategies and challenges of the game.

[jaappleton]

In regards to a Frost Dragons breath, is that a Con save or Dex? I don't have my MM with me, so I'm asking.

If its Dex, doesn't Haste give Advantage on Dex saving throws?

[RickAllison]

In regards to a Frost Dragons breath, is that a Con save or Dex? I don't have my MM with me, so I'm asking.

If its Dex, doesn't Haste give Advantage on Dex saving throws?

Dragon Frost and Poison Breath target Constitution, all others target Dex. So don't use it against Silver, White, or Green dragons!

[jaappleton]

Dragon Frost and Poison Breath target Constitution, all others target Dex. So don't use it against Silver, White, or Green dragons!

For Green Dragons, hope you're a Dwarf, Yuan-Ti Stout Halfling, Monk, Druid, or have eaten a Heroes Feast.

....There's actually a lot of ways to counter poison, when you think of it. And I'm sure I'm missing some.

[Spectre9000]

So, concentration spells aren't totally unreliable. I'm glad that's true. I just didn't know all the ways to maintain it, which is why I asked this. Thanks for the input.

[SharkForce]

For Green Dragons, hope you're a Dwarf, Yuan-Ti Stout Halfling, Monk, Druid, or have eaten a Heroes Feast.

....There's actually a lot of ways to counter poison, when you think of it. And I'm sure I'm missing some.

there's a level 2 spell. doesn't even require concentration. makes you as resistant to poison as a dwarf. lasts an hour i think.

[hymer]

there's a level 2 spell. doesn't even require concentration. makes you as resistant to poison as a dwarf. lasts an hour i think.

This is all correct, and it's called... *drumroll*

Protection from Poison

It also cures one poison currently afflicting the target.

[Asmotherion]

Depends on your Build, Constitution Score, Proficiency or not in the save, and how you play.

There are things that can hit really hard. However the vast majority of attacks won't deal more than 20 damage in a single hit, and DC 10 is easy for someone with a bonus as low as +5 to Con Saves (+3 from Con score, +2 from proficiency), something easy to get from even first level. At least if your build focuses on a Concentration Spell.

The 40 damage you are mentioning is something that would need a con save of DC 20. Meaning someone with the score above would need a roll of 15+. That said, he probably won't meet something that deals 40 damage in one turn 'till he's at least lv6. At that point he'll have a prof bonus of +3, and may or may not use his ASI for con, to make it +4. With a +7 Con Save, he needs to roll 13+. It's still dificult, but much more propable than 15+. At level 20, with +6 prof bonus, warcaster feat and +5 to con saves, you roll twice, and only need one of those rolls to be Higher than 9 to meet the DC 20. If you take 50 damage in one turn, it's a bit more dificult to meet, as you'll need a roll of 16+.

I usually house-rule that the DC from damage caps at 30, and a natural 20 is always a success. in the end, it's all a matter of perspective, but if you get 50+ damage from a single hit, I think you'll have to worry for more than just loosing your spell.

[Talamare]

Well, using those Dragons as examples...

Ancient Gold Dragon does 13d10 on his Breath Weapon... sure
However, all his other attacks only deal like 2d8 to 2d10

So, wait til after the Big Scary Breath to use concentration

[RickAllison]

And that makes sense. Dragons are supposed to be terrible creatures able to sniff all but he greatest of mortals. The idea of a dragon being able to shut down a mage's concentration like that just seems so appropriate!

[Douche]

Your problem is assuming that Haste is supposed to be self cast

[BW022]

You can't just go "well don't get hit" because you're going to get hit. It seems like using any concentration in melee is doomed to failure as soon as you cast it. How does anyone keep a concentration spell going in combat?

Only wizards and sorcerers generally have haste. Maybe a lore bard. None of these classes should be in melee in the first place. If you are going to take 40hp of damage in any of these classes at level 5 would outright kill any wizard, nearly all sorcerers, and most bards. Wizard with 16 constitution is only 37hp at level 5 - baring dwarf. Nor is 40hp realistic. Blue worm is pretty rare, you might not be in the blast area (and you likely are scattering), average damage is 22, save DC is 12, etc. You are well in the 80% range of taking less than 20 damage, i.e. only a DC 10 save.

Most realistic threats at lower-levels are shear number of attacks. Six goblins with bows, a troll with two good attacks per round, etc. These creatures are simply likely to hit you.

If you are an arcane caster going into melee, then you need to figure out how to protect yourself -- regardless of concentration. You typically don't have the hit points to survive repeated rounds of getting attacked. This means armor (either by feat, mage armor, a shield, etc.), defensive spells which do not require concentration (shield, mirror image, blink, etc.), abilities which reduce damage, really nerfing opponents before you enter melee (blindness), staying out of easy attack range (reach weapons), having spells/abilities which really convince folks not to hit you (tempest domain, hellish rebuke, etc.), etc. Basically, you need something to keep you going in melee.

So... multi-classing into fighter (heavy armor, shield, and constitution saves) or cleric (heavy armor, shields, spell slots, and say tempest). Next would be war caster (typically needed is you are going armor/shield/weapon anyway). Next, would be to plan for, obtain, and use non-concentration defensive spells (mirror image, blink, etc.). Next, use different concentration spells as appropriate -- and be ready to change tactics. Finally, remember that most combats only last say 6-7 rounds on average. If a concentration spell is up for 3-4 rounds... it is still extremely good. Don't get upset if it goes down.

I have an blade pact warlock who uses a lot of concentration spells -- darkness, fear, fly, polymorph, and greater invisibility. The character doesn't have war caster and is only +2 to constitution saves. However, I use them selectively. Darkness if for when the combat is going poorly and folks need to escape. I'll cast, stay out of melee and let others heal, regroup, or flee. Fear is used on groups. I'll cast, and then move to the back and stay ranged. Fly I use when faced with melee only creatures and switch to ranged -- or a reach weapon. Polymorph is used against foes who can't handle a giant ape. (i.e. melee without reach). I'll cast, move, attack (reach), and move away. I wouldn't use it if there were ranged or flying creatures. Greater invisibility is my main melee ability. Typically, I'll pre-cast armor of agathys or blink to go with it. It isn't bad in melee since they typically can't hit me -- or often simply target someone else they can see. Sometimes, I'll put greater invisibility on someone else -- say a rogue -- and then stay at the back, even though I'm better at melee.

Used appropriately, concentration spells can themselves be used to prevent you from being hit. However, be willing to not enter melee if that is the best option. I've gone entire combats without taking any damage.

My advice for haste would be to look at your opponents and use the defensive abilities of the spell. I wouldn't use it if there were any ranged opponents around. Nor would I use it to gain multiple attacks. I would use it against a melee creatures preferably engaged with another PC. Close, attack (normal), then use the action to disengage, and move away. Your opponent might be completely unable to hit you -- or might choose to simply never attack you.

[Talamare]

Only wizards and sorcerers generally have haste. Maybe a lore bard. None of these classes should be in melee in the first place. If you are going to take 40hp of damage in any of these classes at level 5 would outright kill any wizard, nearly all sorcerers, and most bards. Wizard with 16 constitution is only 37hp at level 5 - baring dwarf. Nor is 40hp realistic. Blue worm is pretty rare, you might not be in the blast area (and you likely are scattering), average damage is 22, save DC is 12, etc. You are well in the 80% range of taking less than 20 damage, i.e. only a DC 10 save.

Pure Paladin gets Haste

[thompur]

Pure Paladin gets Haste

And impure Paladins get Fathers Day cards.

[Citan]

If you're not set on the character go Fighter with Abjurer, or Eldritch Knight depending on how long you want to hold on for Haste.

These will give you CON save proficiency (so you don't waste another feat), along with War Caster. You can easily have an AC of 19 (Breastplate + shield + Defense), which can become 24 with the Shield spell. If they use area damage on you, cast Absorb Elements. They should be lucky if they break your concentration.
Agreed on Absorb Elements, less so on Abjurer.
Abjurer is really the best for this in the long run, because you end with a starting "shield" of usually 45 HP at level 20.

But, it is a long way to get there!
For a long time, it will be a 1/long rest cushion that lasts a few attacks, then you are back as little squishy Wizard (because sure you reactivate with Shield, but 2 THP won't help much if you are attacked by creatures able to hit you in the first place).

That is why I would rather suggest Bladesinger for that.
You immediately get a good bonus to AC and concentration, so you can easily match 19 AC (Mage Armor, 16 DEX and 16 INT) from level 2 onwards, but you also get +3 on your concentration saves.
You end with 20 INT and 18 DEX (provided you take only Warcaster) so AC 22.
Same with concentration, the +5 added to CON mod + proficiency + advantage will still best the "better CON mod because higher at start plus bump" + proficiency + advantage.

And for the worst cases, you can expend a spell slot to reduce the damage just enough to ensure the success of your concentration save.
You also get better initiative and DEX saves than the Abjurer (well, latter not necessarily true, Abjurer could pick Shield Master ;)).

People tend to narrow Bladesinger as just "the wizard who hits in melee".
But it can be great if built with defense in mind too. ;)


So, concentration spells aren't totally unreliable. I'm glad that's true. I just didn't know all the ways to maintain it, which is why I asked this. Thanks for the input.
This is a fairly stupid build, but for the sake of trying the best Concentration save without any magic equipment is...

Paladin Ancients 7-8 / Bladesinger Wizard 10 (or Bladesinger 2 / Lore Bard 8 for Cutting Words) / Fiend Warlock 1 / Fighter 1 and-or Sorcerer 1 (Shadow if allowed, Draconic otherwise).
Need 13 in STR, INT and CHA.
Start Human with 13 STR / 9 DEX / 14 CON / 16 INT / 9 WIS / 16 CHA
(or: Hal-Elf 13 / 9 / 14 / 16 / 8 / 16)
Start Sorcerer/Fighter: Constitution saving throw proficiency + STR or Charisma (I'd suggest STR to compensate low stat, but whatever).
Then the rest however you want (small dips would actually be better), taking Resilient: DEX, Warcaster and bumping either INT or CHA.

Putting aside all that embarrassing fluff consideration, as well as any questioning about how the hell would you level such a character... XD

You would end with a concentration bonus equal to...
CON mod: +2
Proficiency: +6
Bladesinger: +3 (let's be conservative, say you went with CHA as main)
Paladin: +4 (unless I'm mistaken, Concentration saving throw is affected by Aura of Protection)

So, basically the nearly same as a pure Fighter+Bladesinger? (+15 instead of possibly 3+6+5=14)? Then why bother?

Well, because the main difference is... The enemy will first have to damage you enough to really endanger your Concentration!
You don't get any better AC, but you get...
- Overall better saves (Aura of Protection).
- Great damage cushion (THP from Fiend + magic resistance from Paladin).
- Extra chance to avoid Concentration auto-break by falling to 0HP anyways (Shadow Sorcerer).

The worse being that you are probably still a decent to good contribution to the party, thanks to the ability to take (Bladesinger) and deal (Smite) heavy damage.

Even more, obviously, if you are lucky enough to find items that boost Constitution, Intelligence or Dexterity. ;)

[Biggstick]

Pure Paladin gets Haste

Only Vengeance Paladins get Haste.

[Erys]

And impure Paladins get Fathers Day cards.

Does that mean oath breakers are just deadbeat dads?