At The Highest Levels Of Optimization, Which Is Better? Sorcerer Or Wizard?

[JNAProductions]

See title. And I'm talking Tippy levels here-all cheese allowed, every book, nothing off the table.

Which is better? Or is there even a substantial difference?

[JoshuaZ]

See title. And I'm talking Tippy levels here-all cheese allowed, every book, nothing off the table.

Which is better? Or is there even a substantial difference?

At the highest levels of optimization, everything is Pun-Pun. Can you be more specific?

[JNAProductions]

Fair enough. At around what level do Sorcerers and Wizards become equal? And are the levels similar?

For instance, is there a pure RAW, no questions asked Sorcerer build that matches entirely a Wizard build of similar op-fu levels?

[Jormengand]

Fair enough. At around what level do Sorcerers and Wizards become equal? And are the levels similar?

For instance, is there a pure RAW, no questions asked Sorcerer build that matches entirely a Wizard build of similar op-fu levels?

There's probably one that exceeds it, even, somewhere between the points of "Both of you are basically spontaneously casting off your entire list" and "The number of spells you get per day ceases to matter."

[CharonsHelper]

The wizard because he can adjust his spell list to meet his challenges each day. (Or even on the fly if he left a few slots free and has a couple minutes to spare.)

Plus he gets higher level spells a level sooner.

(Though the sorcerer's extra spells are nice for the first couple levels - it rarely matters too much at upper levels.)

[LordOfCain]

Counting down the minutes until rageicecthuluvillain shows up.

[GilesTheCleric]

Counting down the minutes until rageicecthuluvillain shows up.

I was going to say; we did already just have this thread. Can we start posting topless hunky sorcerers pre-emptively?

[Chulehdoido]

https://rlv.zcache.com.br/eu_estou_olhando_o_meme_mouse_pad-rea80bde06da646f7b83ee17c2b62cf9f_x74vi_8byvr_512. jpg

The wizard because he can adjust his spell list to meet his challenges each day. (Or even on the fly if he left a few slots free and has a couple minutes to spare.)

Sorcerer can do it too, but, better. :thog:

Or is there even a substantial difference?
Action Economy. Sorcerer is far superior action economy.

[Eldariel]

Well. With easy options, Wizard gets Int times spontaneous spells per day and all spells known. Sorcerer gets all spells spontaneously, has to work hard to catchup (but has the Loredrake option to surpass) the Wizard in terms of spells it can cast, has to work quite hard to get access to all spells, but has easier slot recovery tricks. Ultimately, Wizard gets the same tricks if we move a bit further up. As casters, Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobolds do win out though; on level 6 they are 2 effective levels of casting (getting 5th level spells on level 7) ahead until we begin looping slots and feats to get 9s on level 1. However, Wizard has more feats for other cool stuff and the better base chassis.

Basically, Wizard is better until Sorcerer makes up the lost level of casting WotC saw fit to impose upon them, and gets the ability to alter their spells on the fly. After that they are broadly equal though Sorcerer with Sovereign Archetypes pulls ahead with enough work, until Wizard catches up with slightly more extreme work.

[JNAProductions]

Good Stuff

Thanks Eldariel! That's exactly the sort of info I was looking for.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Given that you can make Wizards cast spontaneously and Sorcerers cast off their entire list... I'd say the advantage probably goes to Wizards at odd-numbered levels where they're a spell level ahead, and Sorcerers at even-numbered levels where they have parity.

[Chulehdoido]

Metamagic Reductions + Greater Arcane Fusion + Celerity/Lesser Celerity = free 8 standard actions and 4 move actions por each Greater Arcane Fusion casted.
Sorcerer apply Greater Arcane Fusion(Multiple Actions) as Craft Contingency Spell feat.
Be king of Action Economy.

[The Viscount]

I was going to say; we did already just have this thread. Can we start posting topless hunky sorcerers pre-emptively?

They aren't pre-emptive, the sorcerers get here early through use of teleport through time! It's no use; you've already lost!
http://img12.deviantart.net/c525/i/2014/070/9/a/ember_melody_by_theguardiandragon-d381t4c.jpg

I think I'd say Wizards though, if only because their optimization is more straightforward and doesn't have to overcome being actively hated by one of the designers.

[Telonius]

Odd thought ... at some point of high stat scores, the number of bonus spells granted will exceed the available number of castings of 9th level spells per day. 14,400 rounds in a day. +1 9th level spell for every 8 over 20 your ability score would be, so that makes roughly ... 115,220-ish? If either the Wizard or the Sorcerer can get their stat to above that level, there is effectively no difference in the number of spells per day. That doesn't take things like Time Stop into account.

[bekeleven]

Sorcerers, because they can spontaneously cast off of their entire list of you believe in magic ❉ ✱ ✲ ✴ ✵ ✶ ✷ ✸ ❇ ✹ ✺ ✻ and can be kobolds to make up the level difference.

[Chulehdoido]

Odd thought ... at some point of high stat scores, the number of bonus spells granted will exceed the available number of castings of 9th level spells per day. 14,400 rounds in a day. +1 9th level spell for every 8 over 20 your ability score would be, so that makes roughly ... 115,220-ish? If either the Wizard or the Sorcerer can get their stat to above that level, there is effectively no difference in the number of spells per day. That doesn't take things like Time Stop into account.

This comparison is extremely limited. There are many other possible comparisons.
Action Economy, Charisma Synergy, Best Multiclassing, Exclusive Spells, Access to non-Sorcerer / Wizard list, Best Shapechanging, etc.
Right?


At high optimization, Time Stop is useless

The Wizard says! "Hahaha does not matter your action economy, Time Stop + Daleyed Spells and teleport alway = I win."
The Sorcerer Says! "No, sorry."

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder963/55327963.jpg

[Telonius]

This comparison is extremely limited. There are many other possible comparisons.
Action Economy, Charisma Synergy, Best Multiclassing, Exclusive Spells, Access to non-Sorcerer / Wizard list, Best Shapechanging, etc.
Right?


At high optimization, Time Stop is useless

Absolutely - just to mention it though, since spells per day is one of those metrics that people tend to argue over, and mentioned as (variously) one way that Sorcerer is ahead, or how Wizard can actually get more per day through specializing. At highest op, it doesn't matter; they're both going to be equally able to cast as many spells per day as they want.

[Chulehdoido]

Absolutely - just to mention it though, since spells per day is one of those metrics that people tend to argue over, and mentioned as (variously) one way that Sorcerer is ahead, or how Wizard can actually get more per day through specializing. At highest op, it doesn't matter; they're both going to be equally able to cast as many spells per day as they want.
Sorcerer can throw multiples spells(or Actions) per round and apply metamagic easily. Specializing is always a bad pick. Wizards have bad action ecomony.

What the Wizard Defenses against it?
Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 7: Sculpt Antimagic Filed(Line)
Slot 4: Sanctum Arcane Fusion

Slot 4: Searing Maximized Empower Fell Draining Twin Orb of Fire
Slot 1: Twin Maximized Empower Fell Draining Hail of Stones

Only one Greater Arcane Fusion = 1250 damage -8 negative level, Save or Dazed

[Eldariel]

Time Stop is actually quite important because it literally states you're undetectable for the duration of the spell. Depending on the reading and the interpretations, that might make you able to bypass all sorts of contingencies, immediate action defenses, etc. It also enables approaching while you can't be affected. Offensively it's extremely convenient.

Please note that it's easy enough to add cross-list spells to your class's list. (Greater) Arcane Fusion is certainly a fine spell but simple Extra Spell can arguably acquire it (which is available at a whim through Dark Chaos Shuffle, Limited Wish Psychic Reformation or similar on-the-fly rebuild abilities) and Wyrm Wizard, Recaster or similar can explicitly acquire it. There are of course plenty of other means. Thus, unique spells don't really matter either way.

Also note e.g. the Lucubration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesLucubration.htm)-based restoration cycles (combined with Sanctum Spell to lower Lucubration's own level to make it recoverable) using stuff like Twin/Repeat Sanctum Spell Lucubration to restore Lucubration + another spell already acquires essentially infinite daily spells so the casting stat question isn't that important. There's also the Psionic Restoration chain of course, and there are ways to restore higher level slots.


On a sufficiently high level of optimization (without the use of Manipulate Form, Illithid Savant or the like) every caster can have infinite actions, infinite slots and all spells every turn.

[Chulehdoido]

Time Stop is actually quite important because it literally states you're undetectable for the duration of the spell. Depending on the reading and the interpretations, that might make you able to bypass all sorts of contingencies, immediate action defenses, etc. It also enables approaching while you can't be affected. Offensively it's extremely convenient.
Heighten Temporal Repair spell counter time stop.


Please note that it's easy enough to add cross-list spells to your class's list. (Greater) Arcane Fusion is certainly a fine spell but simple Extra Spell can arguably acquire it (which is available at a whim through Dark Chaos Shuffle, Limited Wish Psychic Reformation or similar on-the-fly rebuild abilities) and Wyrm Wizard, Recaster or similar can explicitly acquire it. There are of course plenty of other means. Thus, unique spells don't really matter either way.
No, Greater Arcane Fusion work only with Sorcerer Spells. Not Wizard Spells.



On a sufficiently high level of optimization (without the use of Manipulate Form, Illithid Savant or the like) every caster can have infinite actions, infinite slots and all spells every turn.
No. Only infinite slots is possible.

[Telonius]

EDIT: Whoops, misread that

[LordOfCain]

Heighten Temporal Repair spell counter time stop.

No, Greater Arcane Fusion work only with Sorcerer Spells. Not Wizard Spells.


No. Only infinite slots is possible.
If you have infinite slots and therefore infinite time stops... how do you not have infinite actions and therefore infinite castings

[Chulehdoido]

If you have infinite slots and therefore infinite time stops... how do you not have infinite actions and therefore infinite castings
Temporal Repair=Time Stop fail.

[eggynack]

Heighten Temporal Repair spell counter time stop.
Seems incredibly short duration to work well for this sort of purpose. Also, doesn't look like it counters this aspect of time stop. Only spells of lower level fail to affect you if you're in the area. Time stop is, at worst, a same level spell. The higher level than temporal repair thing is for stopping the dispelling if the time-altered character enters the spell's area. And, actually, time stop wouldn't be hit by the dispelling effect either. After all, that clause of temporal repair only works on spells with a multi-round duration, and time stop's multi-round duration is a purely apparent one, not an actual one. So, the first clause is the only one that could plausibly do anything, and it doesn't do anything against the equal level time stop, so temporal repair does not counter time stop.


No, Greater Arcane Fusion work only with Sorcerer Spells. Not Wizard Spells.
Almost all wizard spells are also sorcerer spells. Unless, of course, you're contending that greater arcane fusion only works with spells that are sorcerer only, which is, first, not seemingly accurate, and, second, pretty problematic for your argument.


No. Only infinite slots is possible.
That really isn't an argument. More like just a claim absent evidence.

[Eldariel]

Heighten Temporal Repair spell counter time stop.

That counters nothing, just means you can't enter within 50' of the target (100' if it's Widened as it should be), which is hardly necessary for killing someone while operating with complete impunity.


No, Greater Arcane Fusion work only with Sorcerer Spells. Not Wizard Spells.

99% of Wizard-spells are Sorcerer-spells too, arguably you can cast those through Arcane Fusion since it doesn't specify you have to know them as Sorcerer-spells, just that you can only cast spells that exist as Sorcerer-spells. You can't use it with the Wizard-only spells (arguably Lucubration falls into this category which makes the loop inconvenient since you can't do it in a single round) but that's about it. Not that it matters, you can easily get Sorcerer-casting to complement your Wizard-casting through Shapeshifting.


No. Only infinite slots is possible.

Uh, good luck proving that. Even simple Greater Arcane Fusion into Greater Celerity + Celerity, or Twinned Arcane Fusioned Celerities can be nested ad nauseam (Arcane Fusion essentially allows using a standard action to cast Celerity even though it's normally a swift action spell). That's just the simplest off the top; you can also replicate psionics through use of e.g. Ice Assassins or even simple shapeshifting, and get access to a number of action loops.

[Chulehdoido]

Seems incredibly short duration to work well for this sort of purpose. Also, doesn't look like it counters this aspect of time stop. Only spells of lower level fail to affect you if you're in the area. Time stop is, at worst, a same level spell. The higher level than temporal repair thing is for stopping the dispelling if the time-altered character enters the spell's area. And, actually, time stop wouldn't be hit by the dispelling effect either. After all, that clause of temporal repair only works on spells with a multi-round duration, and time stop's multi-round duration is a purely apparent one, not an actual one. So, the first clause is the only one that could plausibly do anything, and it doesn't do anything against the equal level time stop, so temporal repair does not counter time stop.
Persist + Heightein spell Temporal Repair = Time Stop Fail.



Almost all wizard spells are also sorcerer spells. Unless, of course, you're contending that greater arcane fusion only works with spells that are sorcerer only, which is, first, not seemingly accurate, and, second, pretty problematic for your argument.

No, It's RAW.

[eggynack]

Persist + Heightein spell Temporal Repair = Time Stop Fail.
That's not what the text says.



No, It's RAW.
The RAW is sorcerer spells only. Wizards have sorcerer spells though.

[Chulehdoido]

The RAW is sorcerer spells only. Wizards have sorcerer spells though.
Wizard have Wizard spells from Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Its RAW

[eggynack]

Wizard have Wizard spells from Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Its RAW
You really need to cite something here.

[Chulehdoido]

Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.

Sorcerer = Sorcerer Spell

Wizard = Wizard Spells

It's RAW

[eggynack]

Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.

Sorcerer = Sorcerer Spell

Wizard = Wizard Spells

It's RAW
That line doesn't even strictly indicate that sorcerer and wizard spells are distinct. After all, an or can be inclusive.

[legomaster00156]

If ever one needs to prove to someone that 3.5 casters are brokenly powerful, this thread is a good way to do it.

[Chulehdoido]

This is explicit.
Sorcerer OR Wizard conjuration


If ever one needs to prove to someone that 3.5 casters are brokenly powerful, this thread is a good way to do it.
It's true. :redcloak:

[eggynack]

This is explicit.
Sorcerer OR Wizard conjuration
Not if it's an inclusive or it isn't.

[Chulehdoido]

Not if it's an inclusive or it isn't.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/l0MYxIeQmVDTRRJKw/200_s.gif

[eggynack]

Also, bonus thing, spells don't really define the terms of the game outside the context of the spell itself. You really need a general rule here.

[Chulehdoido]

Also, bonus thing, spells don't really define the terms of the game outside the context of the spell itself. You really need a general rule here.

It would be more honest. Admit that you missed. Right?

[ryu]

Also, bonus thing, spells don't really define the terms of the game outside the context of the spell itself. You really need a general rule here.

Eggy you do realize this conversation is pointless right? It'll keep going like this for hours and absolutely nothing will come of it. Then it'll start again the next time a thread like this happens.

[TheFamilarRaven]

@Chulehdoido While I'm by no ways an expert in optimization, the way you present your arguments is so abrasive, condescending and devoid of any meaningful counterpoints, that anyone reading this thread is just naturally inclined to disagree with you.

2ndly, your reading of Shadow conjuration is extrapolating beyond its scope. The spell does not state that spells cast by a wizard and spells cast by a Sorcerer are completely different. It merely states that it covers all Sorcerer or Wizard spells; meaning if there happens to be a (Summoning) spell that is exclusive to either class, the spell can mimic it.

And while I have no idea as to how a Wizard might get access to Greater Arcane Fusion, it does not say "x level spell or lower that he can cast as a sorcerer". It simply says "sorcerer spell". Black Tentacles is a sorcerer spell, it is also a wizard spell, because a spell is/can be both because it's classification does not change depending on who's casting it . So if a wizard knew that spell and could cast Greater Arcane Fusion he'd be able to tack that spell on. In fact your reading of the spell, as others have stated, would imply that the combined spells would have to Sorcerer exclusive spells.

[eggynack]

It would be more honest. Admit that you missed. Right?
Pretty sure I'm merely adding to the points against your position.

Eggy you do realize this conversation is pointless right? It'll keep going like this for hours and absolutely nothing will come of it. Then it'll start again the next time a thread like this happens.
Maybe, but I feel like I haven't had enough Draco sparring experience. Also, if nothing else, I did learn that argument against temporal repair. Came into this discussion unsure of why this apparent time stop counter didn't see any talk, even if there could exist talk limited by some downsides, and now I know quite well why it sucks. There's a point there if nowhere else.

[ryu]

Pretty sure I'm merely adding to the points against your position.

Maybe, but I feel like I haven't had enough Draco sparring experience. Also, if nothing else, I did learn that argument against temporal repair. Came into this discussion unsure of why this apparent time stop counter didn't see any talk, even if there could exist talk limited by some downsides, and now I know quite well why it sucks. There's a point there if nowhere else.

Fair enough. The repeatedly punching a brick wall to strengthen your knuckles (after they grow back from breaking on an immovable object) is understood.

[LordOfCain]

Maybe, but I feel like I haven't had enough Draco sparring experience. Also, if nothing else, I did learn that argument against temporal repair. Came into this discussion unsure of why this apparent time stop counter didn't see any talk, even if there could exist talk limited by some downsides, and now I know quite well why it sucks. There's a point there if nowhere else.
Why isnt Draco sparring a professional sport yet?

[ryu]

Why isnt Draco sparring a professional sport yet?

Because sport implies it's difficult enough of a task to take effort and practice.

[Virdish]

Why isnt Draco sparring a professional sport yet?

Cause it's hard to find judges. Most get bored after the first few rounds.

[Crake]

Why not both?

A level 28 character, with 8 levels in epic ultimate magus (as per the epic level handbook, any prc with 5 or more levels can be carried on to epic levels, just extrapolating the existing progression out) will have 20 levels of sorcerer cast and 20 levels of wizard casting. Be an eidetic wizard, by this level with your WBL you could easily have every single spell in your eidetic spellbook. Now grab versatile spellcaster, you can spend your multitudes of spellslots to spontaneously cast any spell you know (which is now all of them). You have a ridiculous number of spell slots, you can use spells to apply metamagic to other spells. Be an elf, DCFS away those useless proficiency feats into automatic silent/still/quick spell. Your caster level is also something like 31 I think, despite the fact that you're actually only level 20 in both classes

This is of course assuming your game goes out to level 28 though. If not, then well, carry on with your argument I guess.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm just kinda surprised that any build that's making heavy use of the Celerity spell line would touch Temporal Repair with a 10ft pole without Sculpting it. Not that it matters anyway, since anybody wanting to use Time Stop within 50ft of the caster could just take out a Tower Shield and be perfectly fine.

[ryu]

Why not both?

A level 28 character, with 8 levels in epic ultimate magus (as per the epic level handbook, any prc with 5 or more levels can be carried on to epic levels, just extrapolating the existing progression out) will have 20 levels of sorcerer cast and 20 levels of wizard casting. Be an eidetic wizard, by this level with your WBL you could easily have every single spell in your eidetic spellbook. Now grab versatile spellcaster, you can spend your multitudes of spellslots to spontaneously cast any spell you know (which is now all of them). You have a ridiculous number of spell slots, you can use spells to apply metamagic to other spells. Be an elf, DCFS away those useless proficiency feats into automatic silent/still/quick spell. Your caster level is also something like 31 I think, despite the fact that you're actually only level 20 in both classes

This is of course assuming your game goes out to level 28 though. If not, then well, carry on with your argument I guess.

If we're opening it all up to prestige classes and epic you can acquire all the sorcerer stuff before level 20 plus other stuff with early entry to multiprogressing PRC like theurge or similar. It's a much wider set of spells this way.

AV: I've actually made use of that with minion to get full cover. Don't laugh. It's legit.

[Chulehdoido]

Temporal Repair is only to prevent the wizard from preventing the attack. This is very useful within the area.

[eggynack]

Temporal Repair is only to prevent the wizard from preventing the attack. This is very useful within the area.
Again though, it doesn't prevent the attack. It doesn't apparently do anything to time stop.

[barakaka]

Lol at high level when the campaign got really Tippy, I once saw a Factotum ascend a tower and empty a wand of Orb of Force killing a Lich and a few Dread Wraiths... in 3 rounds. He took the feat Font of Inspiration over and over and over and then used cheesy tricks to get more of it on the fly. Hilarious. Nearly anyone can be a broken caster when the gloves are off which is really the fun of being high level.

Personally, as someone with decent system mastery, I find Sorcerer to be easiest at high level. Buy a bunch of scrolls for your randomly required utility spells, and roll in all the Sorcerer goodies. Wings of Cover saved my ass more times than I can count, and Sand Shaper was a godsend.

[Chulehdoido]

Again though, it doesn't prevent the attack. It doesn't apparently do anything to time stop.
No, Heightein or Earth spell Temporal Repair beat Time stop.

[eggynack]

No, Heightein or Earth spell Temporal Repair beat Time stop.
Even at the same spell level as time stop, temporal repair still fails to do anything to time stop. Reread the spell.

[Chulehdoido]

Even at the same spell level as time stop, temporal repair still fails to do anything to time stop. Reread the spell.

The description of the spell says, about lower spells and higher level spells. But it does not say anything about spells of the same level. Either way, Earth Spell makes the level of spell higher. Even so, you should use a caster level check.

[LordOfCain]

The description of the spell says, about lower spells and higher level spells. But it does not say anything about spells of the same level. Either way, Earth Spell makes the level of spell higher. Even so, you should use a caster level check.
And a wizard can't use Earth Spell why?

[AmberVael]

Is Psion a viable answer? Because an optimized Psion can get up to some real shenanigans.

[Chulehdoido]

And a wizard can't use Earth Spell why?
Because time stop is alread level 9.


Is Psion a viable answer? Because an optimized Psion can get up to some real shenanigans.
Sure, I love learn more psionics.

[The_Iron_Lord]

The thing is, a wizard or a sorcerer with incantrix levels can create a fast-time demiplane of an absurd time ratio, use quickened gate/planeshift/whatever, spend a day's worth of time there, then return with all their abilities and spells refreshed. As a free action. However, a wizard gets slightly more out of this because they can use that time to adjust their spells prepared to the battle they just left, as opposed to the sorcerer, who can only do similar things with aforementioned Tippy-esque cheese.

EDIT: Actually, they don't even need the incantrix levels. And if you go the Incantrix route, which makes things easier, the wizard can qualify at level 5 with only a tiny deviation from the desired build, whereas a sorcerer has to wait till level 13, barely getting the famed metamagic power and being unable to finish out the class until epic levels.

[Chulehdoido]

EDIT: Actually, they don't even need the incantrix levels. And if you go the Incantrix route, which makes things easier, the wizard can qualify at level 5 with only a tiny deviation from the desired build, whereas a sorcerer has to wait till level 13, barely getting the famed metamagic power and being unable to finish out the class until epic levels.
Divine Sorcerer can qualify at level 5 to Dweomerkeeper. Dweomerkeeper>Incantatrix

[Telonius]

And while I have no idea as to how a Wizard might get access to Greater Arcane Fusion

Wish would do it. And since we're talking high op here, we can assume he's enslaved a tribe of genies or Zodars or something to give himself unlimited cost-free wishes. :smallbiggrin:

[Malroth]

At the Highest levels of optimization, your class becomes completely moot. With one scroll and two psionic powerstones anybody can have full permanent access to any spell casting list as well as whatever published monster abilities you feel like gettting.

[Technetium43]

Divine Sorcerer can qualify at level 5 to Dweomerkeeper. Dweomerkeeper>Incantatrix

Divine Sorcerer does not give a character a domain. it merely gives them the granted ability, and the spells, of a domain their deity offers. Also, Time Stop is not lower level than even a Heightened Repair, thus you still have to make the caster level check.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The thing is, a wizard or a sorcerer with incantrix levels can create a fast-time demiplane of an absurd time ratio, use quickened gate/planeshift/whatever, spend a day's worth of time there, then return with all their abilities and spells refreshed. As a free action. However, a wizard gets slightly more out of this because they can use that time to adjust their spells prepared to the battle they just left, as opposed to the sorcerer, who can only do similar things with aforementioned Tippy-esque cheese.
I've seen the Ancestral Relic Runestaff trick mentioned, though I'm not sure if it works. The idea, I think, is to have a runestaff with one spell of each level you can cast, then "sacrifice" to change what spells they are. Because the new cost of the item is the same as the old one, you only "sacrifice" zero gold, meaning no time is spent doing so.

[eggynack]

Divine Sorcerer can qualify at level 5 to Dweomerkeeper. Dweomerkeeper>Incantatrix
Wait, you're using dweomerkeeper for this, instead of incantatrix? That doesn't actually reduce below +1, so you need another source of reduction to get persist on this 9th level spell. Actually, it doesn't look like you have any +0's, so arcane thesis wouldn't do it. How are you reducing this spell down from 15th level? Either way, this is an utterly ridiculous amount of feat investment, beyond what is possible without serious feat swapping cheese. You currently have extend, persist, heighten, earth sense, earth spell, some item creation feat (seemingly craft contingent), and some source of metamagic reduction. That alone would be all your feat slots accounted for on a non-human, but your established offensive combo apparently uses twin, searing, maximize, empower, fell drain, sculpt, and sanctum spell. Which is, y'know, a lot of feats. Doesn't seem to add up.

[Technetium43]

Oh, you don't know? Schrödinger's Sorcerer has every feat ever published available for it. That's how this works, right? :smalltongue:

Of course, there's no such thing as Schrödinger's Wizard.

EDIT: But yeah, that's standard for them.

[Bad Wolf]

You fools! You've summoned him back to this earth!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/64/af/e264afd3273f7419cd65086392cd1971.jpg

Quick, post pictures of shirtless male sorcerers.

My offense has no defense

[Crake]

If we're going by pure class abilities, both classes are capable, at the highest levels of optimization, of having infinite spell slots. Both classes are also capable of accessing the entire spell list, wizard by having all the spells in his spellbook, sorcerer by having a knowstone of each spell (assuming dragon magazine knowstones are acceptable). Wizard can spontaneous cast any spell in his spellbook with versatile spellcaster, qualifying through numerous ways.

The only difference is it's far cheaper for a wizard to learn every spell in his spellbook than it is for a sorcerer to do the same with knowstones. Thus they are equal in capabilities, but wizard comes out on top due to cheaper cost, and earlier ability to cast 9th level spells.

That's pretty much it.

[ryu]

If we're going by pure class abilities, both classes are capable, at the highest levels of optimization, of having infinite spell slots. Both classes are also capable of accessing the entire spell list, wizard by having all the spells in his spellbook, sorcerer by having a knowstone of each spell (assuming dragon magazine knowstones are acceptable). Wizard can spontaneous cast any spell in his spellbook with versatile spellcaster, qualifying through numerous ways.

The only difference is it's far cheaper for a wizard to learn every spell in his spellbook than it is for a sorcerer to do the same with knowstones. Thus they are equal in capabilities, but wizard comes out on top due to cheaper cost, and earlier ability to cast 9th level spells.

That's pretty much it.

Also I don't really sorcerer often, but don't wizards also have a higher total number of bonus feats to work with? While not the most massive of deals it's still something.

[Crake]

Also I don't really sorcerer often, but don't wizards also have a higher total number of bonus feats to work with? While not the most massive of deals it's still something.

Again, if going by pure class levels, yes

[Chulehdoido]

Wait, you're using dweomerkeeper for this, instead of incantatrix? That doesn't actually reduce below +1, so you need another source of reduction to get persist on this 9th level spell. Actually, it doesn't look like you have any +0's, so arcane thesis wouldn't do it. How are you reducing this spell down from 15th level? Either way, this is an utterly ridiculous amount of feat investment, beyond what is possible without serious feat swapping cheese. You currently have extend, persist, heighten, earth sense, earth spell, some item creation feat (seemingly craft contingent), and some source of metamagic reduction. That alone would be all your feat slots accounted for on a non-human, but your established offensive combo apparently uses twin, searing, maximize, empower, fell drain, sculpt, and sanctum spell. Which is, y'know, a lot of feats. Doesn't seem to add up.
Summon Undead + Undead Battery feat = Free metamagic slot!
Sorcerer wins.

[Chulehdoido]

If we're going by pure class abilities, both classes are capable, at the highest levels of optimization, of having infinite spell slots. Both classes are also capable of accessing the entire spell list, wizard by having all the spells in his spellbook, sorcerer by having a knowstone of each spell (assuming dragon magazine knowstones are acceptable). Wizard can spontaneous cast any spell in his spellbook with versatile spellcaster, qualifying through numerous ways.

Sorcerer have acess to everyspell in this game.

Rings of Theurgy(Comp Arcane 146)giving access to all spells for the sorcerer, similar to the mage of the arcane order.
Theurgy Rings gives access to cleric spells / Wizard / Druids / Bards to Sorcerers.
Summons / Ice Assassins / Simulacruns / Minions refills the rings.
Black Ethergaunt = Wizard Spells Acess
Planetar = Cleric Spells Acess
Abeil Queen = Druid Spells acess





Sorry double.

[Technetium43]

Undead Battery is third party and thus irrelevant. It's also setting specific to Dragonlance, meaning you can't use any of the other setting specific things, like Dweomerkeeper (although sorcerer STILL doesn't qualify for it without multiclassing) or Incantatrix.

[Chulehdoido]

Undead Battery is third party and thus irrelevant. It's also setting specific to Dragonlance, meaning you can't use any of the other setting specific things, like Dweomerkeeper (although sorcerer STILL doesn't qualify for it without multiclassing) or Incantatrix.
Official and Licensed. Undead Battery is relevant.
No, its qualify(Divine Sorcerer).

[Technetium43]

Divine Sorcerer doesn't give you a domain. It gives you the granted power and some spells that come from that domain.

[Chulehdoido]

Your depth of belief allows you to channel divine power the
way a cleric does. By doing so, you gain access to a single
cleric domain.

RAW wins.

[Technetium43]

'Access' to a domain doesn't mean you have that domain. Also, Dweomerkeeper requires both arcane and divine casting.

[Chulehdoido]

Your depth of belief allows you to channel divine power the
way a cleric does. By doing so, you gain access to a single
cleric domain.

Its divine spells way a cleric does. Domain spells are divine.




If DM disagree. Imbue with spell ability.


You fools! You've summoned him back to this earth!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/64/af/e264afd3273f7419cd65086392cd1971.jpg

Quick, post pictures of shirtless male sorcerers.

My offense has no defense

LoL
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/f9/5e/f6/f95ef605b472d0ed0392b6b3098d12d6.jpg

[Necroticplague]

Er, what's the source on Divine Sorcerer? A quick look for it reveals something that very obviously doesn't work.


A deity, probably the patron of your race, grants you power usually reserved for his divine followers.
Prerequisite: Sorcerer level 1st, alignment within one step of patron deity.
Benefit: You gain access to a cleric domain, giving you the domain's granted power. Each day, you can add one spell from the domain's spell list to your sorcerer spell list. You cast the spells made accessible by this feat as arcane spells.
You do not have to choose a domain you already possess from levels of cleric (if any). If you don't have levels in cleric but later gain them, you do not need to choose the domain gained from this feat as one of your two cleric domains.
Special: You may only gain this feat at your first sorcerer level.

EDIT: To provide a bit more than question: Normally, the wizard barely edges out the sorceror (due to getting spells a level earlier), but a kobold sorceror who takes Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is even in that aspect. The wizard has the advantage in bonus feats, while the sorceror has the advantage of using a stat that's more useful for 'x stat to y bonus' purposes. The Archivist is probably a cut above either, though, due to not being limited by a spell list.

[Chulehdoido]

Its Divine Sorcery feat.(Dragon 343)

Divine Sorcerer (Comp Champion pg52) Domain Acess ACF

[eggynack]

Summon Undead + Undead Battery feat = Free metamagic slot!
Sorcerer wins.
Undead battery does not appear to be first party, and is thus not pertinent to optimization discussion unless you can cite a first party source for it. Meaning, to be clear, something besides age of mortals. Moreover, even were the feat allowed, it only solves the cost reduction half of the equation. The part where you don't have enough feats is, if anything made way worse, because undead battery requires two prerequisite feats and is a feat itself.

[Chulehdoido]

Undead battery does not appear to be first party, and is thus not pertinent to optimization discussion unless you can cite a first party source for it. Meaning, to be clear, something besides age of mortals. Moreover, even were the feat allowed, it only solves the cost reduction half of the equation. The part where you don't have enough feats is, if anything made way worse, because undead battery requires two prerequisite feats and is a feat itself.
Official and Licensed Book. Undead Battery feat is valid.
I dont have enough feats? Wrong.

[Necroticplague]

Its Divine Sorcery feat.(Dragon 343)

Divine Sorcerer (Comp Champion pg52) Domain Acess ACF

Ah got it. That still doesn't work. Complete Divine has more expanded rules for how having a domain as an arcane caster works.


. If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely. Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters.
With 'such spells' refering to 'domain spells'.

[Chulehdoido]

Ah got it. That still doesn't work. Complete Divine has more expanded rules for how having a domain as an arcane caster works.


With 'such spells' refering to 'domain spells'.

Wrong.
It referes only to Prestige Class

Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters.

Divine Sorcerer is not a prestige class and allows you to channel divine power the
way a cleric does.

It does not matter, Imbuir with spell ability

[eggynack]

Official and Licensed Book. Undead Battery feat is valid.
It wasn't published by Wizards, though, but rather by Sovereign Press, so it's not a valid source. Anything besides dragonlance campaign setting is merely an officially licensed third party book.


I dont have enough feats? Wrong.
Saying it doesn't make it true.

[Chulehdoido]

It wasn't published by Wizards, though, but rather by Sovereign Press, so it's not a valid source. Anything besides dragonlance campaign setting is merely an officially licensed third party book.

Saying it doesn't make it true.

That's just your opinion. It's official, Dragon Mag is official too. I know it's sad, but you can admit that the sorcerer is superior with metamagic! Right?

[eggynack]

That's just your opinion. It's official, Dragon Mag is official too. I know it's sad, but you can admit that the sorcerer is superior with metamagic! Right?
It's not an opinion. It's a broad consensus at worst, an absolute fact at best. Officiality on its own doesn't mean anything without some note of what it's officially being. And, again, you're just not addressing the ridiculous number of feats this character is taking.

[Chulehdoido]

It's not an opinion. It's a broad consensus at worst, an absolute fact at best. Officiality on its own doesn't mean anything without some note of what it's officially being. And, again, you're just not addressing the ridiculous number of feats this character is taking.
Consensus? From who? Official sources are valid.
See how get the 38 feats
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS).

[eggynack]

Consensus? From who? Official sources are valid.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169277-DND-How-taboo-is-Dragonlance-3-5-material), for one. Basically anywhere you'll check, for another. I mean, you're experiencing a small part of the consensus right now, for whatever that's worth.



See how get the 38 feats

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS).

First, could've just agreed with me when I said chaos shuffle shenanigans, instead of linking to your past self and proving that your very presence is against the rules. Second, just looked at your build, and temporal repair isn't on the list of persisted spells. So, yeah.

[Chulehdoido]

First, could've just agreed with me when I said chaos shuffle shenanigans, instead of linking to your past self and proving that your very presence is against the rules. Second, just looked at your build, and temporal repair isn't on the list of persisted spells. So, yeah.
This is not my build. But I'm improving him. Let's say, it will be even more powerful, but, I am not able to post. Exams week

And Temporal Repair will be inside. Vileblade and Putrefation too(Dragon 300).

[Bad Wolf]

Hey Chulehdoido, we never did get around to that challenge we were talking about....

EDIT: Also, what makes a wizard unable to duplicate all your tricks?

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. the OP, The Clockwork Wizard (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time) provides access to all wizard spells infinitely often in zero time with no contentious rules interpretations I'm aware of. Doing the same thing with a sorcerer is a bit trickier.

[Chulehdoido]

W.r.t. the OP, The Clockwork Wizard (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time) provides access to all wizard spells infinitely often in zero time with no contentious rules interpretations I'm aware of. Doing the same thing with a sorcerer is a bit trickier.
You just showed me 1 more infinite loop.TO build. Very annoying and easy to reproduce




EDIT: Also, what makes a wizard unable to duplicate all your tricks?
Just read this topic and u will see.

[Bad Wolf]

Just read this topic and u will see.

Weird, I'm not seeing anything. I'm forced to conclude that you don't have anything to disprove/prove that, and thus, I'm forced to conclude that they're both equal at the very least.

[JNAProductions]

Chulehdoido, you do realize that the build you linked to uses infinite loops, right?

[RedMage125]

Did LordDrako come back under a new name? I'm having flashbacks.

[AvatarVecna]

Did LordDrako come back under a new name? I'm having flashbacks.

Yes, multiple times. But obviously the last time he did so and got banned, he respected it and didn't return under a new username.

[Segev]

As far as gaining access to every spell for the sorcerer, if we're willing to go into Epic levels and feats, Master Staff lets him spend spell slots to cast spells out of any staff he makes, instead of spending the staff's charges. A spell that costs 50 charges to cast from the staff is actually cheaper than a spell in a wizard's spellbook of equal level. An epic sorcerer with Master Staff can know every spell (by shoving them all in his staff) for less than a wizard, at least if the wizard is relying on spellbook costs.

To get spells he doesn't have on his list crafted in requires either a custom magic item that expressly provides this (you can use wish as the core spell for the item), or requires assistance or spell-knowledge-swapping shenanigans, but those are all fairly common TO tricks.


Note that a wizard can do the same trick, mind.

[Efrate]

Being that each can get infinity everything for what its worth, the speed at which they can matters more. Kobald shenanigans get you past a wizard casting at 7? So when does the brokeness start for each? Whats the earliest you can TO your choice of infinities for each class?

[Segev]

Being that each can get infinity everything for what its worth, the speed at which they can matters more. Kobald shenanigans get you past a wizard casting at 7? So when does the brokeness start for each? Whats the earliest you can TO your choice of infinities for each class?

Obligatory "Emperor Pun-Pun comes online at level 1" comment. Just to get it out of the way.

[Drezius]

Did LordDrako come back under a new name? I'm having flashbacks.

Now under a portuguese name! Crazy stinky feet.
Btw, guys, we dont have this feat in portuguese. Lorddrako never will understand.

[ryu]

Now under a portuguese name! Crazy stinky feet.
Btw, guys, we dont have this feat in portuguese. Lorddrako never will understand.

I stopped thinking that was down to language/cultural barrier a long time ago. After all you're apparently from the same general area and you're a productive member of the community who generally understands things at a reasonable rate. No, this is just on him.

[Emperor Tippy]

At highest non Pun-Pun (or near equivalent) levels, the order is Psion -> Wizard -> Sorcerer.

[Jormengand]

At highest non Pun-Pun (or near equivalent) levels, the order is Psion -> Wizard -> Sorcerer.

Out of interest, could you explain why?

[JNAProductions]

Out of interest, could you explain why?

Seconded. I believe you, but I'd like to know why.

[Vaz]

Is Psion a viable answer? Because an optimized Psion can get up to some real shenanigans.

I prefer Ardent. Dominant Time Mantle? Oh go on.

[Bad Wolf]

At highest non Pun-Pun (or near equivalent) levels, the order is Psion -> Wizard -> Sorcerer.

Well, i-

*Sees username*

..never mind.

But joking aside, why's that?

[Jack_Simth]

Well, i-

*Sees username*

..never mind.

But joking aside, why's that?
Probably action economy. Discounting tricks that give uncapped numbers of actions (such as, say, Sanctum Spell [Greater] Arcane Fusion outside your sanctum), the Psion has an easier time going nova. Additionally, Psychic Reformation and Psychic Chigury. Oh yes, and for non-combat powers, you can actually use a powerstone off your own power points rather than actually using the stone once per day per stone, as I understand it (from level 1, even!).

[Strigon]

Who keeps making these threads?
And why?

And how does He find out about them so quickly? Does He just constantly lurk on the forum, waiting for a Sorcerer vs Wizard thread to show up so that He can reveal Himself yet again? What's His endgame?

And why do we keep making these threads?

[ryu]

Probably action economy. Discounting tricks that give uncapped numbers of actions (such as, say, Sanctum Spell [Greater] Arcane Fusion outside your sanctum), the Psion has an easier time going nova. Additionally, Psychic Reformation and Psychic Chigury. Oh yes, and for non-combat powers, you can actually use a powerstone off your own power points rather than actually using the stone once per day per stone, as I understand it (from level 1, even!).

Which means an even wider list of ''spells'' all without the normal components meaning basically free still, silent, and eschewed materials. I mean right at the off you have access to all psionics and arcane, and I'm pretty sure you could get access to a lot of stuff from the divine lists from people using various methods to cast them arcane like prestige classes and feats.

Strigon: Because. Of. Reasons.

[GilesTheCleric]

Who keeps making these threads?
And why?

And how does He find out about them so quickly? Does He just constantly lurk on the forum, waiting for a Sorcerer vs Wizard thread to show up so that He can reveal Himself yet again? What's His endgame?

And why do we keep making these threads?

You do have to admit that they're more exciting than another thread about monks or martial/caster disparity, at least.

http://img08.deviantart.net/7035/i/2013/124/0/b/kapalik___invocation_of_kali_by_rumaani-d2slq8m.jpg

[Jack_Simth]

Which means an even wider list of ''spells'' all without the normal components meaning basically free still, silent, and eschewed materials. I mean right at the off you have access to all psionics and arcane, and I'm pretty sure you could get access to a lot of stuff from the divine lists from people using various methods to cast them arcane like prestige classes and feats.
Ooh, I forgot the Spell to Power Erudite! Plus Psicrystals, especially with the answer of "You get a new one the next morning" are mostly more useful (and durable, and disposable) than standard familiars (Channel Power especially - mount your psicrystal on someone's staff, and if they're within a mile, you can make your will known... and at very little risk).

Edit: Oh yes, and power point recharge methods come online easier than do spell slot recharge methods....

[Efrate]

Emperor, i get psion at the top but why wizard over sorcerer? Im curious as to your reasoning.

[ZamielVanWeber]

First, could've just agreed with me when I said chaos shuffle shenanigans, instead of linking to your past self and proving that your very presence is against the rules. Second, just looked at your build, and temporal repair isn't on the list of persisted spells. So, yeah.

I personally love that build. It has so much wrong with it but, above all, I love that he traded away his familiar twice but kept it so he could DCFS away the Alertness for a feat. Just as a reminder of who you are dealing with.

[Vaz]

Emperor, i get psion at the top but why wizard over sorcerer? Im curious as to your reasoning.

Intelligence over Charisma, especially in universe.

[Chulehdoido]

Intelligence over Charisma, especially in universe.
http://witzzer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/10-things-only-really-stupid-people-will-understand.png

[Bad Wolf]

http://witzzer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/10-things-only-really-stupid-people-will-understand.png

Hey, you never responded to my post.

[Rhyltran]

Hey, you never responded to my post.

That pic has me pretty convinced he's the same guy. Going by that? He won't respond to you. He didn't last time, he won't now. Anyway the entire playground knows the answer to the question is Wizard.

[Chulehdoido]

Hey, you never responded to my post.
Exam week. Sorry. But ok!
Best Action Economy of the game.(GAF)
Acess to ANY SPELL!(Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Bard) and persist all.(Rings of Theurgy)
Best Multiclassing(Marshal <3)
Throw multiples spells per round and apply metamagic easily
Not limited to Sorcerer/Wizard list, Acess Amazing spells like Body Outside Body, Transcend Mortality, Giant Size, Minute Form, Creeping Darkenss, Improvisation,etc.
Apply Charisma to everything(Initiative x2, Saves x3, Dex Based Skills, Wis Based Skill, Attack roll, Damage, AC, apply penalty on saves equal to the Charisma bonus(-Cha mod saves is so fun))
Better with metamagic(Apply metamagic easily and have acess to free metamagic slot over level 9)
Undead Batter feat
Better with Shapechange(Almost Every form is charisma based, I love Death Giants Synergy)+ Strengh of the True Form spell
STUPID AMAZING SORC ONLY(Wings of Everything <3, Arcane Fusion, Strengh of the True Form)
Sorcerer style
Edit: AMAZING SYNERGY WITH ZHENTARIM SKYMAGE.

[JNAProductions]

And a wizard can't do any of that because...

[Chulehdoido]

And a wizard can't do any of that because...
Wizards cant do any that listed.


Edit:<3

[nyjastul69]

Wizards cant do nothing listed.

This is correct. They pretty much can do everyrhing listed. I'm glad you agree.

[JNAProductions]

This is correct. They pretty much can do everyrhing listed. I'm glad you agree.

Admittedly, to my knowledge, wizards don't have as much Marshal synergy, since they're Int-based and Marshals are Cha-based. That being said, losing a caster level is not worse a Marshal dip.

[Chulehdoido]

Admittedly, to my knowledge, wizards don't have as much Marshal synergy, since they're Int-based and Marshals are Cha-based. That being said, losing a caster level is not worse a Marshal dip.
Wizards cant do any listed. :biggrin:

[JNAProductions]

So how do Sorcerers do that? Oh, but no using Infinite Loops-like that old Ragevillain guy did.

[Chulehdoido]

So how do Sorcerers do that? Oh, but no using Infinite Loops-like that old Ragevillain guy did.
Infinite loop is stupid. I will never use that.
Everything listed is not infinite loops.

[JNAProductions]

Then prove it. Post a build.

[Bad Wolf]

Exam week. Sorry. But ok!
Best Action Economy of the game.(GAF)
Acess to ANY SPELL!(Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Bard) and persist all.(Rings of Theurgy)
Best Multiclassing(Marshal <3)
Throw multiples spells per round and apply metamagic easily
Not limited to Sorcerer/Wizard list, Acess Amazing spells like Body Outside Body, Transcend Mortality, Giant Size, Minute Form, Creeping Darkenss, Improvisation,etc.
Apply Charisma to everything(Initiative x2, Saves x3, Dex Based Skills, Wis Based Skill, Attack roll, Damage, AC, apply penalty on saves equal to the Charisma bonus)
Better with metamagic(Apply metamagic easily and have acess to free metamagic slot over level 9)
Undead Batter feat
Better with Shapechange(Almost Every form is charisma based, I love Death Giants Synergy)+ Strengh of the True Form spell
STUPID AMAZING SORC ONLY(Wings of Everything <3, Arcane Fusion, Strengh of the True Form)
Sorcerer style
Edit: AMAZING SYNERGY WITH ZHENTARIM SKYMAGE.

Wizards can get GAF, along with pretty much any other spell through Wyrm Wizard, they can throw multiple spells per round (Arcane Spellsurge and Celerity), Wizards can apply Intelligence to their Hitpoints, attack rolls, damage rolls, pump up their AC to insane levels, dont need to waste a full-round action on metamagic, there's plenty of INT-focused shapechange forms, wizards can get 'sorcerer only spells' easily.

As for Zhentarim skymage...did you see the part where they get two spells of every level free, that they can add to their spellbook?

[Chulehdoido]

Then prove it. Post a build.
After Exam Week.

I can create a build, which I delete all the wizards of the material plane(Without Infinite loops and limited summons and not epic cheeses)
:wink:


Wizards can get GAF, along with pretty much any other spell through Wyrm Wizard, they can throw multiple spells per round (Arcane Spellsurge and Celerity), Wizards can apply Intelligence to their Hitpoints, attack rolls, damage rolls, pump up their AC to insane levels, dont need to waste a full-round action on metamagic, there's plenty of INT-focused shapechange forms, wizards can get 'sorcerer only spells' easily.

As for Zhentarim skymage...did you see the part where they get two spells of every level free, that they can add to their spellbook?
GAF work only with Sorcerer spells. Wizards cant do it.
I know every wizard actually wanted to be a sorcerer. Charisma is far superior to intelligence.
I love Zhentarim Pets and share spells with them <3

[Kelb_Panthera]

Out of interest, could you explain why?

I might be able to help here.

Psion is on top because of the interaction of psychic chirurgy and StP erudite. A psion can, thanks to these things, know every spell and power in the game, can manifest them freely, and needs never rest thanks to PP recharge tricks. This is about as close as you get to pun-pun without actually crossing the line.

Now wizard vs sorcerer is a little trickier but I'd hazard it's because both can do pretty much anything that can be done but wizards do it just a tad more efficiently. It really is the defference betwee $10,000 and $10,000.01 but the wizard has the extra penny.

I have no beefcake to ward off the reincarnation of Lorddraco.

[Virdish]

I have no beefcake to ward off the reincarnation of Lorddraco.

He has already been reincarnated and has been tempted into spawnung one of his eldritch horrors upon the face of giantitp. Alas we are doomed.

[Chulehdoido]

I stop posting, the guy complains that and says I do not reply him. So I answer. And then they complain about me. Can not understand.

[Bad Wolf]

I stop posting, the guy complains that and says I do not reply him. So I answer. And then they complain about me. Can not understand.

They complain about you because you stubbornly refuse to consider the points of other users, keep on making accounts despite being banned, post pictures which have little to do with the topic, and have poor grammar.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Then prove it. Post a build.

Do not encourage that. Every build he posts is more illegal than the last. My friend still cites the various illegalitis of the last one, especially the trading his familiar twice while keeping it so he can trade away the feat. Also if you point out any of the monstrous violations of the rules he will give the "nuh uh" you keep seeing now. He has already derailed this topic, which I was actually curious about.

[Rhyltran]

Do not encourage that. Every build he posts is more illegal than the last. My friend still cites the various illegalitis of the last one, especially the trading his familiar twice while keeping it so he can trade away the feat. Also if you point out any of the monstrous violations of the rules he will give the "nuh uh" you keep seeing now. He has already derailed this topic, which I was actually curious about.

The best way to deal with him is to ignore his existence and continue on with the thread as if he doesn't even exist. Then he'll be forced to go away. It's the most effective counter considering all he's trying to do is derail the thread anyway.

[Chulehdoido]

Do not encourage that. Every build he posts is more illegal than the last. My friend still cites the various illegalitis of the last one, especially the trading his familiar twice while keeping it so he can trade away the feat. Also if you point out any of the monstrous violations of the rules he will give the "nuh uh" you keep seeing now. He has already derailed this topic, which I was actually curious about.
False, trade familiar twice? what? wrong.
monstruous violantios of the rules? wrong, no arguments = false.

[Drezius]

In a single thread, a 5 page thread, lorddrako manages to get to my forum rank.
This is terribly sad.

[Chulehdoido]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS)
Last Lord Drako update.
Still no arguments :nale:

[lylsyly]

I am going to say something.. and I really don't care if you take offense or not.. some of us come here to learn how to play the game better... not to have threads interrupted with B.S.

and it is always the same people doing the same things...

GO FIND ANOTHER PLAYGROUND

[Chulehdoido]

I am going to say something.. and I really don't care if you take offense or not.. some of us come here to learn how to play the game better... not to have threads interrupted with B.S.

and it is always the same people doing the same things...

GO FIND ANOTHER PLAYGROUND
http://data.whicdn.com/images/52123240/large.jpg

[AnachroNinja]

I'm not gonna lie... That SpongeBob pic was worth a giggle. I think I actually have to give him two points for that.

[Chulehdoido]

I'm not gonna lie... That SpongeBob pic was worth a giggle. I think I actually have to give him two points for that.
:thog:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2PAdO3ghqSg/Vs8TeJsoACI/AAAAAAAAADQ/vTkWc4XLSSI1PlN1GDbgoAhlt4bbRKI3QCKgB/s200/Darth%2Bjoinha.jpg

[RedMage125]

Sorcerer-king can't beat any wizard build.

Wizard is the Magic Master.

Sorcerer want to play with magic and my mind, but instead he cries.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.

[Chulehdoido]

Sorcerer-king can't beat any wizard build.

Wizard is the Magic Master.

Sorcerer want to play with magic and my mind, but instead he cries.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.

Sorcerer-King is bad.

Try beat Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS))
I alread improved this build, it will be still more powerful.



Sorcerer want to play with magic and my mind, but instead he cries.

Prepare to be a ghost slayer :smallbiggrin:

[RedMage125]

Sorcerer-King is bad.

Try beat Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS))
I alread improved this build, it will be still more powerful.

So Lord of the Sevenfold Shadow is your build? That you have improved upon?

It fails.

Lord of Seven is illegal build, cannot take dweomerkeeper. Cannot "cast divine spells".

Just like Sorcerer-King; does not know rules.

Lies, cheats, and cries when he can't get his way.

Tendentious Lord of Sevenfail loses against God-Wizards.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.




Prepare to be a ghost slayer :smallbiggrin:

Can I be a ghost buster instead?

Because I ain't afraid of no ghost.

[Chulehdoido]

So Lord of the Sevenfold Shadow is your build? That you have improved upon?

It fails.

Lord of Seven is illegal build, cannot take dweomerkeeper. Cannot "cast divine spells".

Just like Sorcerer-King; does not know rules.

Lies, cheats, and cries when he can't get his way.

Tendentious Lord of Sevenfail loses against God-Wizards.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.
Domain spells are divine.
But ok
Imbue with spell ability :redface::nale:

Its Lord Drako update build.
"God-Wizards fail again"

[RedMage125]

Domain spells are divine.
But ok
Imbue with spell ability :redface::nale:

Its Lord Drako update build.
"God-Wizards fail again"

Domain spells are still arcane when cast by a divine sorcerer.

Imbue with Spell Ability is a buff that does not qualify Lord of Sevenfail Shadow for a Prestige Class.

"Lord Drako builds fail again"

So...this is an update to your build, then?

It still fails.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.

[Chulehdoido]

Domain spells are still arcane when cast by a divine sorcerer.

Imbue with Spell Ability is a buff that does not qualify Lord of Sevenfail Shadow for a Prestige Class.

"Lord Drako builds fail again"

So...this is an update to your build, then?

It still fails.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.

Domain spells are divine. Divine Sorcerer i'snt a Prestige Classe and they use Divine Power as some way the cleric does.
Sorry

Buff cant qualify? That's new to me.

[RedMage125]

Domain spells are divine. Divine Sorcerer i'snt a Prestige Classe and they use Divine Power as some way the cleric does.
Sorry

Buff cant qualify? That's new to me.

Domain spells are divine WHEN CAST BY A CLERIC.

Divine Sorcery says "Each day, you can add one spell from the domain's spell list to your sorcerer spell list." So you still cast it as a SORCERER (arcane) spell.

Why are you trying to improve a LordDrako build?

LordDrako's builds failed because he didn't understand the rules.

He was a cheater.

And a liar.

And cried all the time.

I have already proved it.

[Chulehdoido]

Domain spells are divine WHEN CAST BY A CLERIC.

Divine Sorcery says "Each day, you can add one spell from the domain's spell list to your sorcerer spell list." So you still cast it as a SORCERER (arcane) spell.

Why are you trying to improve a LordDrako build?

LordDrako's builds failed because he didn't understand the rules.

He was a cheater.

And a liar.

And cried all the time.

I have already proved it.

Imbue with spell ability.


I know the wizard does not stand a chance against this build, so check to see illegalities. Normal, it is the same when a presidential candidate loses and asks to recount the votes.
Imbue with spell ability qualify and there are many other ways to acquire divine casting.

[RedMage125]

Imbue with spell ability.


I know the wizard does not stand a chance against this build, so check to see illegalities. Normal, it is the same when a presidential candidate loses and asks to recount the votes.
Imbue with spell ability qualify and there are many other ways to acquire divine casting.

If you're entire build is dependent on "I had a cleric help me", then you are not better than a God-Wizard.

So...like everything else LordDrako ever did in his entire life, it fails.

I ask again, why would you want to "improve" a build from a person who did not understand the rules of the game?

[Chulehdoido]

If you're entire build is dependent on "I had a cleric help me", then you are not better than a God-Wizard.

So...like everything else LordDrako ever did in his entire life, it fails.

I ask again, why would you want to "improve" a build from a person who did not understand the rules of the game?
Planetar summons.
Sorry.

[Segev]

I ask again, why would you want to "improve" a build from a person who did not understand the rules of the game?

It would seem more advantageous to build one's own build that doesn't rely on somebody else's misconceptions of the rules, certainly.

[Chulehdoido]

It would seem more advantageous to build one's own build that doesn't rely on somebody else's misconceptions of the rules, certainly.

This is normal, you know that the wizard can not win a fight against this build. They will always seek to disqualify. Expected. But no arguments.

[Drezius]

"But no arguments". From Lorddrako.

/thread?

[Segev]

This is normal, you know that the wizard can not win a fight against this build. They will always seek to disqualify. Expected. But no arguments.

Your mask is slipping.


And I know no such thing. Frankly, my answer to this thread's opening question is that there really isn't much difference except aesthetics at the highest levels of optimization between a wizard and a sorcerer. Particularly at epic levels, they literally can mime each others' advantages to their arcane hearts' content.

[Chulehdoido]

Your mask is slipping.


And I know no such thing. Frankly, my answer to this thread's opening question is that there really isn't much difference except aesthetics at the highest levels of optimization between a wizard and a sorcerer. Particularly at epic levels, they literally can mime each others' advantages to their arcane hearts' content.


The difference is brutal, you will never see a wizard approach that build(It will still be updated). Show me only one and I will not comment anything else.

[RedMage125]

Planetar summons.
Sorry.
Ok, I'll bite, how will your Evil, tainted sorcerer summon a Planetar? Especially at level 7, which is the level he would have to do it in order to have entry to the Dweomerkeeper Prestige Class at the level specified in the build?


This is normal, you know that the wizard can not win a fight against this build. They will always seek to disqualify. Expected. But no arguments.

Why would anyone want to bother posting a LEGAL build against a cheater build?

A build from a cheater is going to win because he cheats the rules.

LordDrako was a liar, a cheater, and he did not know the rules as well as he thought he did.

Your build has to be legal BEFORE anyone can challenge it.

[Chulehdoido]

Ok, I'll bite, how will your Evil, tainted sorcerer summon a Planetar? Especially at level 7, which is the level he would have to do it in order to have entry to the Dweomerkeeper Prestige Class at the level specified in the build?

Why not? Binding?
Ok man, Dragon Ally spell = Gray Linnorm(Cleric Casting)
Ok, early game he need a cleric, that's true. Or a potion :smallcool:



Why would anyone want to bother posting a LEGAL build against a cheater build?

A build from a cheater is going to win because he cheats the rules.

LordDrako was a liar, a cheater, and he did not know the rules as well as he thought he did.

Your build has to be legal BEFORE anyone can challenge it.

That build is legal. Your first arguments was destroyed.
More arguments, please.

[Emperor Tippy]

So Psion wins because of four factors.

1) Psychic Chirurgery allows the Psion to get all psionic powers onto his list of powers known. This alone would push Psion up to reasonably competitive with Wizard or Sorcerer but slightly lower because the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is just better. But Spell to Power Erudite means that all of those spells can be made into Psionic powers, and they then become valid targets for Psychic Chirurgery and thus the Psion can now also cast all of those spells in addition to having all of his powers. Then you have the existence of Wyrm Wizard which can make any spell from any list into an Arcane spell, which makes it a valid target for a Spell to Power Erudite and thus for Psychic Chirurgery. These spells turned into powers are also generally better than the base spells (loosing little things like material components).

2) Psion has the best spontaneous casting mechanic in the game, so all of those spells and powers that you got above are always at your finger tips ready to go. No spell books, no spell slots. It also has Int as its primary casting stat, and that is the best casting stat in the game.

3) Psion has easy and low resource access to various methods of regaining Power Points thanks to cost reduction and Bestow Power. This means, at even middle tier high op the Psion regains all of his PP after any encounter and effectively has unlimited PP outside of combat. At top tier optimization all PP can be regained as essentially a free action thanks to action economy abuse.

4) Psion's can natively break action economy harder than any other class. A Psion 20 can take as many standard actions as they want for zero real cost.

Then comes the Wizard. They beat Sorcerer's for three big reasons.

1) They get spells a level earlier than Sorcerer's, they can increase their spells known using less resources than a Sorcerer, and they work off a better main casting stat.

2) A Sorcerer has to spend finite build resources and/or build under alignment restrictions to equal a Wizard who has expended zero finite build resources.

3) Wizard's synergize better, more of their abilities build on one another and make a greater whole than Sorcerer abilities do for them.

----
At the end of the day, at highest non pun-pun op levels the difference between Wizards and Sorcerer's is fairly academic. The Wizard is better but it's a minuscule difference on an absolute scale and in play you are unlikely to see any real measurable difference. Frankly, Wizard win's at highest op levels because it edges by a tiny bit (in resource expenditure, ease of use, practicality, power, or some other similar category) in a lot of separate area's while Sorcerer edges the Wizard in very, very, few area's.

[Bad Wolf]

Why not? Binding?
Ok man, Dragon Ally spell = Gray Linnorm(Cleric Casting)

Lesser Dragon Ally, the weakest version, is a fifth level spell. You can't cast that spell with only seven levels of Sorcerer casting.

[RedMage125]

Why not? Binding?
Ok man, Dragon Ally spell = Gray Linnorm(Cleric Casting)
Ok, early game he need a cleric, that's true. Or a potion :smallcool:

Binding a planetar requires a Greater Planar Binding spell, which you cannot yet cast yourself (at the level you would be before taking Dweomerkeeper) so you need a higher-level character to do so. Furthermore, granting Imbue With Spell Ability to an Evil character is a request that a planetar would find "unreasonable" by its standards (as a being of pure Good). Ergo, the planetar would not do it, because "unreasonable demands are never agreed to", as per the spell. Also Imbue With Spell Ability is not one of the normal planetar spells prepared, as per the Monster Manual, so odds are good that if you called a planetar, it would not have that spell for that day.

So Planar Binding is not an option at all.

A Grey Linnorm casts spells like a cleric, true, but who says the one you summon has that spell prepared for the day? Linnorms are selfish and evil, so not likely to prepare a spell that grants another creature their power. So the Grey Linnorm will have to rest and re-prepare spells. Thus, your request will take 13,000 gp (1,000gp per hit die) because it takes longer than one day, IN ADDITION to the cost of paying a high-level spellcaster to cast a 7th level spell with a 250xp cost (which is 2,160 gp, assuming you get a wizard to do it). Not to mention that, if you continue to hold onto the "ability to cast" that spell, the Grey Linnorm is effectively PERMANENTLY giving up one of its 4th level spells per day, which constitutes "hazardous" (as the spell slot is no longer available to the Linnorm), which means DOUBLE the bribe, so 26,000 gp. This exceeds the Wealth-by-level guidelines for a 7th level character (as you took Dweomerkeeper at 8th level) so you cannot use this method.

Also, the PHB says that if a spells total cost exceeds 3,000gp it is not available, except by DM's permission.

And again, for ALL of those options, since you cannot do it yourself, and you need someone else to do it for you, your build fails to be better than the God-Wizard.



That build is legal. Your first arguments was destroyed.
More arguments, please.

Build is not legal. You have not posted a new build that doesn't hinge on Divine Sorcerer counting as "divine spells", so until you do, only the printed build is what exists.

You have proposed changes, but those are all flawed, or at the very least expensive.

Lord of Sevenfail is only as good as the people he pays to cast spells FOR him, because he is weak.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.

:wink:

[Segev]

Honestly, a wizard 20 can do everything that build can do. It takes some work and some finagling with magic items, but he can do it. The spells exist, and, especially when you get into planar binding to call forth other casters to do your bidding, the wizard 20 can literally mimic all of it.

You may have specific abilities the wizard 20 won't, but they amount to no additional actual capabilities in practice.

The thing is... all of this is also true of Sorcerer 20, with the right choices (namely, make sure you get greater planar binding and wish).

Yes, playing with those other builds gets you things earlier, or gets you cool toys you can use in different ways, with less cheese, and more tacit DM permission (due to them being baked in as class features), but you can manage all of them with straight sorc or wiz 20.

[RolkFlameraven]

Darco is still trying to say that just because its a divine spell that if he casts it from an arcane source it is still divine? Now I have to wonder what he thinks of the bard. As it stands it is an arcane class with cure spells. Are those cure spells still divine?

Does a cleric who gets mage armor from a domain cast that mage armor as an arcane spell? That seems to be the crux of his argument so far as I can tell for this "build" he championing. Seems an odd way to interpret how these things work.

[ryu]

Darco is still trying to say that just because its a divine spell that if he casts it from an arcane source it is still divine? Now I have to wonder what he thinks of the bard. As it stands it is an arcane class with cure spells. Are those cure spells still divine?

Does a cleric who gets mage armor from a domain cast that mage armor as an arcane spell? That seems to be the crux of his argument so far as I can tell for this "build" he championing. Seems an odd way to interpret how these things work.

It seems odd because you're correct and he just never understood the rules to begin with.

[RedMage125]

It seems odd because you're correct and he just never understood the rules to begin with.

Misunderstanding the rules always been LordDrako's biggest flaw. A great deal of it has to do with language barrier, as English is not his first language. A situation which would NORMALLY merit more understanding and patience on everyone else's part.

However...he continues to behave in such a manner as if he is the greatest optimizer who has ever lived. He believes that his misunderstandings of the RAW are, in fact, a greater insight that he, and only he, has noticed, which makes him "a better optimizer" than anyone else. This in the face of all logic that native-English speakers might have a better grasp of nuances of things originally printed in English, and the fact that the entire body of literature for this edition has been complete for over 8 years, giving 3.5e optimizers who natively speak English that long to have pored over the entire edition.

This wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't abrasive and offensive about it. If he had an ego like this and was just like "here is what I've got, marvel at my magnificence" it would be one thing, but he directly insults people, and cries like a sore loser when people point out illegalities in his build. His ego will not allow the idea that his understanding of the RAW may be secondary to anyone else's. If someone points out how his build is illegal, he believes it is because others have no way to beat his character on his terms.

Which is, of course, true. No one can beat a cheater when the cheater gets to set the rules of the match. With his original character, the "Sorcerer-King", he believed the ONLY fair way to match a wizard build against it was if he had access to all divination magic regarding his opponent, who would not be allowed to do the same, AND he got to attack said wizard while the wizard was preparing spells, completely unaware of the sorcerer.

That would be like if you wanted to have a death match of a lvl 5 wizard vs a level 5 barbarian (Core only), but would ONLY allow it in a dead magic zone...

The dichotomy of it all is startling, because he understands SOME nuances of the RAW as they pertain to optimization, but misses glaringly obvious ones in others. Take, for example, the Sorcerer-King's ridiculously massive Diplomacy check, which he believed he could use to make any deity Fanatic (as per Epic Diplomacy), because even statted out deities could not make the opposed Sense Motive check. This overlooked the fact that the Fanatic condition is considered a Mind-Affecting effect, which ALL deities, of any divine rank, are immune to.

I was on the original LordDrako thread. Towards the end, I even got him to admit he was wrong about a rule (specifically using Wish to do Psychic Reformation to alter a class feature, when it can only change skills, feats, and powers known). But it took a LONG time. He doesn't change his mind easily. And since he believes himself to be the best optimizer in existence, he doesn't think anyone else could possibly teach him anything.

Couple that with his belief that Sorcerers are in every way better than wizards (which shows a misunderstanding of the PURPOSE of the Tier system) and his drive to somehow "prove" it, you will be able to spot a LordDrako thread easily. They invariably involve Tainted Sorcerers.

[Bad Wolf]

You know, I baby sit this kid who made up a little game of catching a ball. You got ten points for every ball you caught. And then I caught a ball. And then it was one point. For me of course, he still got ten points.

Even he admitted it was unfair.

[Virdish]

You know, I baby sit this kid who made up a little game of catching a ball. You got ten points for every ball you caught. And then I caught a ball. And then it was one point. For me of course, he still got ten points.

Even he admitted it was unfair.

Don't forget greater arcane fusion. Lord Draco loves his greater arcane fusion. Oh and his "non-infinite" loops taken to arbitrarily high numbers.

[Strigon]

Snip

Come to think of it, is there a reason everyone seems convinced he's not just a troll?
I mean, let's face it. If he were looking to improve, he'd actually change his tricks.
If he were just looking to show off, he wouldn't use the same tricks here over and over again; he'd either find somewhere else, or find a new trick to show off.

How sure are we that he's serious?

[GilesTheCleric]

How sure are we that he's serious?

It doesn't even really matter whether he's serious or not. He's already violated the forum rules (multiple times) by creating new accounts after his other accounts have been banned.

[lichbolado]

Binding a planetar requires a Greater Planar Binding spell, which you cannot yet cast yourself (at the level you would be before taking Dweomerkeeper) so you need a higher-level character to do so. Furthermore, granting Imbue With Spell Ability to an Evil character is a request that a planetar would find "unreasonable" by its standards (as a being of pure Good). Ergo, the planetar would not do it, because "unreasonable demands are never agreed to", as per the spell. Also Imbue With Spell Ability is not one of the normal planetar spells prepared, as per the Monster Manual, so odds are good that if you called a planetar, it would not have that spell for that day.

So Planar Binding is not an option at all.

A Grey Linnorm casts spells like a cleric, true, but who says the one you summon has that spell prepared for the day? Linnorms are selfish and evil, so not likely to prepare a spell that grants another creature their power. So the Grey Linnorm will have to rest and re-prepare spells. Thus, your request will take 13,000 gp (1,000gp per hit die) because it takes longer than one day, IN ADDITION to the cost of paying a high-level spellcaster to cast a 7th level spell with a 250xp cost (which is 2,160 gp, assuming you get a wizard to do it). Not to mention that, if you continue to hold onto the "ability to cast" that spell, the Grey Linnorm is effectively PERMANENTLY giving up one of its 4th level spells per day, which constitutes "hazardous" (as the spell slot is no longer available to the Linnorm), which means DOUBLE the bribe, so 26,000 gp. This exceeds the Wealth-by-level guidelines for a 7th level character (as you took Dweomerkeeper at 8th level) so you cannot use this method.

Also, the PHB says that if a spells total cost exceeds 3,000gp it is not available, except by DM's permission.

And again, for ALL of those options, since you cannot do it yourself, and you need someone else to do it for you, your build fails to be better than the God-Wizard.



Man you are creating problems and trying to make something simple difficult. Simple solution.
Evil Tainted? Necrotic tumor spell and have a slave forever, free acess to Imbue With Spell Ability. Such a villain would never pay for services. Imbue with spell ability is so easy to get.
Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, Necrotic Tumor simply solve any problem.

You also confused Divine Sorcery with Divine Sorcerer ACF
- Divine Sorcerer ACF use divine power as some way the cleric does. Domain Spells Are Divine
- Divine Sorcery feat describes that are arcane.
You failed again, little boy.








A lich always return

[JNAProductions]

How are you using a 7th level spell at level 7?

Which, come to think of it, really SHOULD make sense, but hey, this is D&D! :P

[RolkFlameraven]

Man you are creating problems and trying to make something simple difficult. Simple solution.
Evil Tainted? Necrotic tumor spell and have a slave forever, free acess to Imbue With Spell Ability. Such a villain would never pay for services. Imbue with spell ability is so easy to get.
Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, Necrotic Tumor simply solve any problem.

You also confused Divine Sorcery with Divine Sorcerer ACF
- Divine Sorcerer ACF use divine power as some way the cleric does. Domain Spells Are Divine
- Divine Sorcery feat describes that are arcane.
You failed again, little boy.


A lich always return

At level 7?

Also, did you really just make a new account just to continue this fight in the same thread? Really? Just how long is this one going to last, an hour?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Edit: Hindsight probably not the nicest thing to say...

[Strigon]

It doesn't even really matter whether he's serious or not. He's already violated the forum rules (multiple times) by creating new accounts after his other accounts have been banned.

Well, yes, but we do have a habit of engaging his builds and arguments that suggests to me we think there's a chance to win.

[lichbolado]

@RedMage
Whats your problem, are you still commenting on the first build 2 years ago?

Your logic!
You: Sorcerer-King cant beat any wizard
Me: Sorcerer-King is bad. Try Beat Lord of the Sevenfold Shadow
You: THAT SO POWERFUL. But you cant qualify to Deomerkeeper, you cant cast Divine Spells !!
Me: Domain spell are divine and Imbue with Spell ability qualify.
You: OMG !! U NEED A CLERIC FRIEND !! YOU FAIL
Me: Sorry, but, Planetar / Gray Linnorm / Simulacrum / Ice Assassin
You: You cant call Planetar and Gray Linnorm will never help u
Me: Necrotic Tumor!
You: SORCERER-KING HAS VARIOUS ERRORS !! SEE THAT HE SPOKE THAT 2 YEARS AGO
Me: OMG, he went back to the first build again !!


This does not make sense or he realized he has no chance against Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow.


How are you using a 7th level spell at level 7?

Which, come to think of it, really SHOULD make sense, but hey, this is D&D! :P

I ANSWERED THAT, I SAID THAT THIS BUILD NEEDS A CLERIC IN THE INITIAL LEVELS OR BUY POTIONS.
Just read it earlier. WTF.






A POWERFUL LICH ALWAYS RETURN

[JNAProductions]

Now, I'm not knowledgeable enough to say whether or not it'll actually work. I'll leave that to those more well-versed in op-fu than I.

But I think it can be agreed-if you need someone else's help to get to your power, you're weaker than someone who does it alone.

Plus, reading Imbue With Spell Ability... I don't think that lets you qualify. It's like saying you qualify because you have a scroll of Cure Light Wounds.

[RolkFlameraven]

You mean a scroll or a staff right? As a potion can't have a spell of a level higher than 3rd.

Also, do you mean the Domain access AFC? Because you are STILL casting those spells as arcane spells even though they are coming off a domain. The "divine power" part isn't the spells, it the domain power you also get. Or is there some other AFC that you are using that I'm not seeing?

[lichbolado]

You mean a scroll or a staff right? As a potion can't have a spell of a level higher than 3rd.

right.







A lich always return

[JNAProductions]

Okay, so we're clear. Divine Sorcerer ACF grants Arcane casting of Cleric spells, meaning you don't qualify for Dweomerkeeper.

Glad we're on the same page.

[lichbolado]

Divine Sorcerer ACF grants Arcane casting of Cleric spells, meaning you don't qualify for Dweomerkeeper.

No. Where is this described?
Imbue with spell ability

:cool:

[JNAProductions]

At best, that lets you qualify so long as you never use those spells.

But according to most sensible readings, Imbue With Spell Ability does not let you qualify for Dweomerkeeper.

[lichbolado]

At best, that lets you qualify so long as you never use those spells.

But according to most sensible readings, Imbue With Spell Ability does not let you qualify for Dweomerkeeper.
Yes, i dont need use those spells.
really? This one is new to me.

[Virdish]

Why is anyone engaging with him. Report and move on. Eventually if no one respobds to his trolling he will move on to terrorize another forum.

[lichbolado]

Why is anyone engaging with him. Report and move on. Eventually if no one respobds to his trolling he will move on to terrorize another forum.
A powerful lich always return!


Cry more. So far I have not seen a wizard that can fight against Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow.
Look at these Wizard builds, they would be completely destroyed. Wizard Competition I (Burst of laughter)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wat a sec... I'm only really skimming at this point but did LordDrako just switch accounts mid-thread without missing a beat?

[JNAProductions]

Wat a sec... I'm only really skimming at this point but did LordDrako just switch accounts mid-thread without missing a beat?

Yup. Also, guys, I figured out what his phylactery is. It's hot, shirtless sorcerers.

[lichbolado]

Wat a sec... I'm only really skimming at this point but did LordDrako just switch accounts mid-thread without missing a beat?
Body outside Body! :biggrin:

[ryu]

Wat a sec... I'm only really skimming at this point but did LordDrako just switch accounts mid-thread without missing a beat?

In response to his previous getting banned yes.

[Virdish]

In response to his previous getting banned yes.

That would seem the nature of things.

[lichbolado]

A Powerful Lich ALWAYS RETURN. You dont know, but, he is around you... Take care!
:xykon:


I came back from the shadows to get a right answer. Now you can ban again.
But remember. He will always come back!

[RolkFlameraven]

No. Where is this described?
Imbue with spell ability

:cool:

May I ask just how this spell lets you get into a PrC? Imbue doesn't even let YOU cast the spell really as the range, caster level, damage dice and saves are all based off the caster of Imbue and not off the target. The Target isn't really casting a thing; sure it has to go through the motions but nothing is based off the target at all.

Or are you saying a fighter could get into PrC's that need "spell casting" based off this one spell? Because that's a... unique reading to say the least.

[lichbolado]

May I ask just how this spell lets you get into a PrC? Imbue doesn't even let YOU cast the spell really as the range, caster level, damage dice and saves are all based off the caster of Imbue and not off the target. The Target isn't really casting a thing; sure it has to go through the motions but nothing is based off the target at all.

Or are you saying a fighter could get into PrC's that need "spell casting" based off this one spell? Because that's a... unique reading to say the least.

You transfer some of your currently prepared spells, and the ability to cast them
Requirements
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks , Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Any item creation feat and any metamagic feat.
Spells: Ability to cast arcane and divine spells.

End Game.
My RAW has no Defense!






You do not have to believe me, just look at similar threads.

[RolkFlameraven]

You transfer some of your currently prepared spells, and the ability to cast them
Requirements
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks , Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Any item creation feat and any metamagic feat.
Spells: Ability to cast arcane and divine spells.

End Game.






You do not have to believe me, just look at similar threads.

So yes, you are saying that a fighter could take a PrC that calls for "the ability to cast spells" or "cast 2nd level spells" or some much and be fine because he was imbued. So long as he never casts those spells and loses the ability that is. Ok, good to know, not sure I know a single DM who would really let that fly but alright.

[lichbolado]

So yes, you are saying that a fighter could take a PrC that calls for "the ability to cast spells" or "cast 2nd level spells" or some much and be fine because he was imbued. So long as he never casts those spells and loses the ability that is. Ok, good to know, not sure I know a single DM who would really let that fly but alright.
If it is within the requirements. Yes. But a simple dispel can create big problems.

There are many other ways to acquire divine casting.
Planat Touch Stone(Catalogs of the enlightenment).(Planar Handbook pag 168)
Cry more.
Want more ways?

[Technetium43]

So if a sorcerer can do it, and a fighter can do it, then a wizard can do it. So it's a draw there, no advantage to the sorcerer on dweomerkeeper entry, as they both require either cleric multiclassing or outside help. Catalogues of Enlightment only grant the Domain power as the base ability, and the Higher Order ability is, as described earlier in the same section, a spell like ability and not actually casting the spell as a divine spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So yes, you are saying that a fighter could take a PrC that calls for "the ability to cast spells" or "cast 2nd level spells" or some much and be fine because he was imbued. So long as he never casts those spells and loses the ability that is. Ok, good to know, not sure I know a single DM who would really let that fly but alright.

I might for some corner case classes where the magic isn't a central feature. Take gnome artificer for example; it requires the ability to cast arcane illusions (anyspell) but hardly has any magical features at all. I'd let that slide.

RAW, it -does- work, technically, but it has significant issues.

[lichbolado]

So if a sorcerer can do it, and a fighter can do it, then a wizard can do it. So it's a draw there, no advantage to the sorcerer on dweomerkeeper entry.
And domain?

[Technetium43]

Sorcerer can't get the domain either, as has already been clarified (though you seem to enjoy ignoring this point), Divine Sorcerer only grants access to the spell list, and to the granted power. Access to something is not the same as possessing something.

[RolkFlameraven]

And domain?

What about the domain? Any spells cast are arcane spells as the caster is an arcane caster. Unless a Domain Wizard casts his spells as Divine too?

[lichbolado]

What about the domain? Any spells cast are arcane spells as the caster is an arcane caster. Unless a Domain Wizard casts his spells as Divine too?

Arcane Domain: At 1st level, a domain wizard selects an arcane
domain from those listed below


Sorry man, Divine Sorcerer domain spells are divine, but, domain wizard are explicit arcane.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorcerer can't get the domain either, as has already been clarified (though you seem to enjoy ignoring this point), Divine Sorcerer only grants access to the spell list, and to the granted power. Access to something is not the same as possessing something.

Honestly, the logic here seems a bit spurious. If you have access to the spells and the granted power of the domain, how do you not have the domain? Unless I'm mistaken, those two things make up the whole of a domain.

It's still not casting them as divine spells so it's not getting you into dweomerkeepr on its own but that argument doesn't seem to hold much water to me.

[Technetium43]

Divine Sorcerer merely adds the spells as spells that can be cast once per day, it does not alter the statistics of the spell in any way. If you can point the rules text out to me that specifically states 'these spells are cast as divine spells', then I'm willing to concede the point. And no, "channel divine power the way a cleric does" is both not in the benefits section of the ACF, nor does it have a rules definition of what it means, therefore it means nothing.

[RolkFlameraven]

Arcane Domain: At 1st level, a domain wizard selects an arcane
domain from those listed below


Sorry man, Divine Sorcerer domain spells are divine, but, domain wizard are explicit arcane.

*sigh* Alright so... your Sorcerer can cast those few spells in heavy armor and needs a divine focus for some of them I take it?

[lichbolado]

Divine Sorcerer merely adds the spells as spells that can be cast once per day, it does not alter the statistics of the spell in any way. If you can point the rules text out to me that specifically states 'these spells are cast as divine spells', then I'm willing to concede the point. And no, "channel divine power the way a cleric does" is both not in the benefits section of the ACF, nor does it have a rules definition of what it means, therefore it means nothing.
Domain spells dont need say, it's divine! its obvious, divine scource.
When the domains spells is arcane, This is described(Dragons Cast or Divine Sorcery feat)

[AnachroNinja]

Just out of curiosity, why did he get banned originally anyway? Yeah he's kind of obnoxious, but lots of people are.

[lichbolado]

*sigh* Alright so... your Sorcerer can cast those few spells in heavy armor and needs a divine focus for some of them I take it?
If requeriment, yes. Lord of the sevenfold shadow never cast spells with somatic or verbal components(Still and Silent spell feat).

[Erit]

I think I'd say Wizards though, if only because their optimization is more straightforward and doesn't have to overcome being actively hated by one of the designers.

Can someone explain the source of this notion, other than WoTC's name? Mere curiosity.

[Technetium43]

Domain spells dont need say, it's divine! its obvious, divine scource.
When the domains spells is arcane, This is described(Dragons Cast or Divine Sorcery feat)

Really? Because I just found rules text that directly contradicts this.

Complete Divine pg 20:

Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters.

The word prestige class is used, but it specifically refers to being granted extra domains. Guess what divine sorcerer does?

[lichbolado]

The word prestige class is used, but it specifically refers to being granted extra domains. Guess what divine sorcerer does?
You answered, so refer to a prc only

[AnachroNinja]

Unfortunately the fact that it *does* specify prestige class means it *doesn't* directly contradict his claim. I don't necessarily support his view, but your argument isn't valid either.

[Technetium43]

Unfortunately the fact that it *does* specify prestige class means it *doesn't* directly contradict his claim. I don't necessarily support his view, but your argument isn't valid either.

Yeah I'm aware, I was actually just wanting to see what is response was to the points, to collect more information about what he is and isn't willing to listen to. We can definitely scratch off 'similar adjucation of rules in slightly different situations' off the list, so there goes about most of RAI. It's kind of fascinating actually, like some sort of scientific trial. :smallbiggrin:

[lichbolado]

Try beat him!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS) (Try Beat !)

Wizard competition build. Easily destroyed.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414658-Wizard-Competition-I

[AnachroNinja]

You know, I do have to give credit though, the Domain Casting ACF does not at any point specify that you cast those domain spells as arcane. I'm not saying that it does say you cast them as divine, but it certainly is open to interpretation, especially since similar abilities like Arcane Disciple and Divine Sorcery do specify. An argument could be made that this indicates that the natural state of casting a domain is for it to be divine in nature unless otherwise specified.

For the most part this will always come down to people who think it's ludicrous to assume something works a certain way just because it doesn't say otherwise versus people who think it's crazy to assume something works a certain way unless it's directly specified.

Each argument has some merit.

[eggynack]

Wait a sec. Are you still, in this arbitrary new guise, claiming that wizards can not make use of arcane fusion because they lack sorcerer spells? If so, then what is the difference between saying that any spell cast by a wizard is a wizard, and not sorcerer, spell unless stated otherwise, and saying that any spell cast by a sorcerer is an arcane, and not divine, spell unless stated otherwise? Clearly it is your contention that it is the caster and not the source that is most crucial without additional detail, except now when you think the exact opposite. I'm pretty sure these two stances are mutually exclusive from a logical perspective.

[ZamielVanWeber]

DnD is a game that fundamentally lists what you can do, wit occasionally pointing out what you cannot. Since it does not say it let's you cast domain spells as divine, it does not. That would otherwise be an amazing way of entering geomancer without hiccups.

[Technetium43]

DnD is a game that fundamentally lists what you can do, wit occasionally pointing out what you cannot. Since it does not say it let's you cast domain spells as divine, it does not. That would otherwise be an amazing way of entering geomancer without hiccups.

And here we have someone stating my point significantly more eloquently than I ever could. Thank you.

[Bad Wolf]

Lesser Dragon Ally, the weakest version, is a fifth level spell. You can't cast that spell with only seven levels of Sorcerer casting.

You never responded to this.

Or if you're sticking to the Necrotic Cyst way, how would you get access to the dragon? Or how would you even cast Necrotic Domination at 7th level, seeing as it's a 4th level spell?

[RedMage125]

Man you are creating problems and trying to make something simple difficult. Simple solution.
Evil Tainted? Necrotic tumor spell and have a slave forever, free acess to Imbue With Spell Ability. Such a villain would never pay for services. Imbue with spell ability is so easy to get.
Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, Necrotic Tumor simply solve any problem.
You said Planar Binding and Dragon Ally, as per the RAW of those spells, you MUST pay for them to give you what you want. ESPECIALLY the dragon. And the planetar would never accept ANY amount of payment.

So both of those options fail. And you fail, because you do not understand the RAW.


You also confused Divine Sorcery with Divine Sorcerer ACF
- Divine Sorcerer ACF use divine power as some way the cleric does. Domain Spells Are Divine
- Divine Sorcery feat describes that are arcane.
You failed again, little boy.


And you have confused "the RAW don't say I cannot" with "that RAW say I can".

One of them is valid, and one is not. Here's a hint: unless the RAW spell out that a spell IS divine, then it's an arcane spell when a sorcerer casts it, because sorcerers cast arcane spells.


@RedMage
Whats your problem, are you still commenting on the first build 2 years ago?

Your logic!
You: Sorcerer-King cant beat any wizard
Me: Sorcerer-King is bad. Try Beat Lord of the Sevenfold Shadow
You: THAT SO POWERFUL. But you cant qualify to Deomerkeeper, you cant cast Divine Spells !!
Me: Domain spell are divine and Imbue with Spell ability qualify.
You: OMG !! U NEED A CLERIC FRIEND !! YOU FAIL
Me: Sorry, but, Planetar / Gray Linnorm / Simulacrum / Ice Assassin
You: You cant call Planetar and Gray Linnorm will never help u
Me: Necrotic Tumor!
You: SORCERER-KING HAS VARIOUS ERRORS !! SEE THAT HE SPOKE THAT 2 YEARS AGO
Me: OMG, he went back to the first build again !!
I never responded after you mentioned necrotic tumor (because I was actually PLAYING D&D). And I did that while maintaining the fiction that you were not LordDrako, which, up until now, you had done.



This does not make sense or he realized he has no chance against Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow.
Wow, it's word-for-word what I said in post 164.

You are so firm in your belief that you could not POSSIBLY be wrong, that you think people only point out illegalities in your build because they somehow "can't beat it".

Has it EVER occurred to you that JUST MAYBE the people who speak English as their first language MIGHT know the rules a little bit better? If you had an extra dose of humility and could accept that you made some mistakes and try and learn from those mistakes, you might not have gotten permanently banned (3 times).


I ANSWERED THAT, I SAID THAT THIS BUILD NEEDS A CLERIC IN THE INITIAL LEVELS OR BUY POTIONS.
Just read it earlier. WTF.
The God-Wizard doesn't need any cleric help.

Just saying.

Also, what potion? Because potions are only for 1st-3rd level spells.


Cry more. So far I have not seen a wizard that can fight against Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow.
Look at these Wizard builds, they would be completely destroyed. Wizard Competition I (Burst of laughter)
Anyone else find Drako accusing other people of "crying" ironic?



Domain spells dont need say, it's divine! its obvious, divine scource.
When the domains spells is arcane, This is described(Dragons Cast or Divine Sorcery feat)
That's not how rules work, Drako. Sorcerers cast ARCANE spells. Just like how Arcane Disciple allows a sorcerer to add the spells from a domain to his spells known list, they remains arcane spells when he casts them. Since the RAW do not EXPLICITLY say that the sorc can cast the as divine, they are not.


DnD is a game that fundamentally lists what you can do, wit occasionally pointing out what you cannot. Since it does not say it let's you cast domain spells as divine, it does not. That would otherwise be an amazing way of entering geomancer without hiccups.

Thank you Zamiel.

What you are describing is Munchkin Fallacy. When someone says "the RAW don't say I can't, so therefore I can".


You never responded to this.

Or if you're sticking to the Necrotic Cyst way, how would you get access to the dragon? Or how would you even cast Necrotic Domination at 7th level, seeing as it's a 4th level spell?
And he won't. And if he's not banned soon, then in a few pages he'll bring up the point you debunked yet again and pretend it did not happen.

[lichbolado]

You said Planar Binding and Dragon Ally, as per the RAW of those spells, you MUST pay for them to give you what you want. ESPECIALLY the dragon. And the planetar would never accept ANY amount of payment.

So both of those options fail. And you fail, because you do not understand the RAW.

I never responded after you mentioned necrotic tumor (because I was actually PLAYING D&D). And I did that while maintaining the fiction that you were not LordDrako, which, up until now, you had done.


The God-Wizard doesn't need any cleric help.

Just saying.

Also, what potion? Because potions are only for 1st-3rd level spells.

OMG!! Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow beat any God/BAD-Wizard!!
I need to invent difficulty for something so simple !!!
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/88/88f0f2bf2507cf431bf6b63e9f15a4e5b4205bd1ce57f99501 6c5e75265093a5.jpg


1)Little man,
To become desperate, a simple simulacrum or Ice Assassin of the Planetar / Gray Linnorm / Lilitu / Lammasu / Spirit of the Air / Firre (Eladrin) / Ghaele (Eladrin) / Solar / Trumpet Archon solution the problem
Or simply summon them or simply find and use Necrotic Tumor in them.

Or simply kills them and turns them into undead slayer.
What is the best option?



2)"God/BAD-Wizard" cant qualify to do it. Just cry.


3)Sorry, no potion, Scroll is enough

[lichbolado]

You never responded to this.

Or if you're sticking to the Necrotic Cyst way, how would you get access to the dragon? Or how would you even cast Necrotic Domination at 7th level, seeing as it's a 4th level spell?
I already answered that. I will not keep repeating answers.

[Bad Wolf]

1)Little man,
To become desperate, a simple simulacrum or Ice Assassin of the Planetar / Gray Linnorm / Lilitu / Lammasu / Spirit of the Air / Firre (Eladrin) / Ghaele (Eladrin) / Solar / Trumpet Archon solution the problem
Or simply summon them or simply find and use Necrotic Tumor in them.

Or simply kills them and turns them into undead slayer.
What is the best option?


A couple of points here. Lesser Planar Binding is a 4th level spell, which you can't cast before level 7. Therefore, you can't get access to any of those creatures unless you have a lenient DM. And you can't cast Ice Assassin or Simulacrum yet, because you're only level 7.

[Rhyltran]

OMG!! Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow beat any God/BAD-Wizard!!
I need to invent difficulty for something so simple !!!
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/88/88f0f2bf2507cf431bf6b63e9f15a4e5b4205bd1ce57f99501 6c5e75265093a5.jpg


1)Little man,
To become desperate, a simple simulacrum or Ice Assassin of the Planetar / Gray Linnorm / Lilitu / Lammasu / Spirit of the Air / Firre (Eladrin) / Ghaele (Eladrin) / Solar / Trumpet Archon solution the problem
Or simply summon them or simply find and use Necrotic Tumor in them.

Or simply kills them and turns them into undead slayer.
What is the best option?



2)"God/BAD-Wizard" cant qualify to do it. Just cry.


3)Sorry, no potion, Scroll is enough

Were you trying to quote yourself? Because this is accurate about your sevenfold sorcerer. Just I think you forgot the word can't in the "Lord of sevenfold beat God/Bad Wizard." I think you meant "Can't beat." which is an apt descriptor. Also you completely didn't understand Red Mage's argument.

[RedMage125]

OMG!! Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow beat any God/BAD-Wizard!!
I need to invent difficulty for something so simple !!!

I know English is your second language, but with your Vegeta meme, you just said that something simple has a very HIGH difficulty.

Which is really funny, because you actually don't understand the rules.



1)Little man,
To become desperate, a simple simulacrum or Ice Assassin of the Planetar / Gray Linnorm / Lilitu / Lammasu / Spirit of the Air / Firre (Eladrin) / Ghaele (Eladrin) / Solar / Trumpet Archon solution the problem
Or simply summon them or simply find and use Necrotic Tumor in them.

Or simply kills them and turns them into undead slayer.
What is the best option?
Which one can you do, or even have the money to pay someone to do for you, as a level 7 character?

Oh, none of them.



2)"God/BAD-Wizard" cant qualify to do it. Just cry.
God/Wizard can't qualify to do what?
Cheat?
Fail to understand the RAW?
Lie?
Make illegal character?
Cry to everyone like you do?



3)Sorry, no potion, Scroll is enough
Scroll of what?
Having a scroll of a divine spell is not enough to qualify you for Dweomerkeeper.


LordDrako doesn't understand the rules.

He cheats.
Cries when people say he cheats.
Still says he's the best.
Can't prove it.
Cries more.
Says everyone else is jealous of his character skills.
But no one is jealous of a whining cheater.
So sad.
Cry.

My argument has no defense.

I have already proved it.

[lichbolado]

A couple of points here. Lesser Planar Binding is a 4th level spell, which you can't cast before level 7. Therefore, you can't get access to any of those creatures unless you have a lenient DM. And you can't cast Ice Assassin or Simulacrum yet, because you're only level 7.

@Bad Wolf, Divine Sorcerer ACF or Planar Touchstone feat(Catalogues of Enlightenment, Planar Handbook pg 168) is enough to cast divine spells.
But if the DM disallowed, level 1-10, I Just need use a DIVINE SCROLL OF IMBUE WITH SPELL ABILITY or pay a cleric to cast it.

Imbue with spell ability has Duration: Permanent

@RedMage, Cry more.
http://theparentjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/babies-crying-cute-crying-baby.jpg

[eggynack]

@Bad Wolf, Divine Sorcerer ACF or Planar Touchstone feat(Catalogues of Enlightenment, Planar Handbook pg 168) is enough to cast divine spells.
But if the DM disallowed, level 1-10, I Just need use a DIVINE SCROLL OF IMBUE WITH SPELL ABILITY or pay a cleric to cast it.

Imbue with spell ability has Duration: Permanent

Again, this is in direct opposition to your stance on arcane fusion. It is your claim that a sorcerer spells are defined as those cast by a sorcerer. Thus, it is a trivial leap to say that arcane spells are those cast by an arcane caster, and that divine spells are those cast by a divine caster. A sorcerer, of course, is an arcane caster, so by your logic, any spell cast by a sorcerer must be arcane. Of course, an ability could always say otherwise, that the spell the sorcerer is casting is divine, but these abilities do not say so.

[lichbolado]

They are completely different things. It is one thing to define whether domain spells are divine or not.
Everyone knows that when it is arcane, this is described.
Divine Sorcery Feat
Arcane Disciple feat
Dragons casting

But that does not matter, there are several other ways to get divine casting.

[eggynack]

They are completely different things. It is one thing to define whether domain spells are divine or not.
Everyone knows that when it is arcane, this is described.
Divine Sorcery Feat
Arcane Disciple feat
Dragons casting

But that does not matter, there are several other ways to get divine casting.
Just because they say it works in one fashion every other time, that doesn't mean it necessarily works the other way when they don't say it. In fact, while you obviously can't make the logical leap perfectly, if something says it works one way every other time, and then they don't say anything this one time, then it makes even more sense to conclude that this method also doesn't work the way you want.

[RedMage125]

@Bad Wolf, Divine Sorcerer ACF or Planar Touchstone feat(Catalogues of Enlightenment, Planar Handbook pg 168) is enough to cast divine spells.
But if the DM disallowed, level 1-10, I Just need use a DIVINE SCROLL OF IMBUE WITH SPELL ABILITY or pay a cleric to cast it.

Imbue with spell ability has Duration: Permanent



They are completely different things. It is one thing to define whether domain spells are divine or not.
Everyone knows that when it is arcane,[B] this is described.
Divine Sorcery Feat
Arcane Disciple feat
Dragons casting

But that does not matter, there are several other ways to get divine casting.

Divine Sorcery and Arcane Disciple still have you cast those spells as ARCANE spells. So that does not give you "ability to cast Divine Spells". That's not "if a DM allows", that's RAW.

Let me ask you something. Do you REALLY believe that you, who does not speak English as a first language, know something about the rules that the rest of us, who have been playing this game for over 15 years with English as a first language, do not?

What is more likely? That you have misinterpreted the rules because of a language barrier? Or that you have some greater insight that thousands of gamers who speak English better have somehow missed?

Imbue With Spell Ability does, arguably work. But you don't have a means of GETTING that without outside help. And my whole point was that a God-Wizard does not NEED help from a cleric to be as powerful as he is. Your entire build can only happen if someone else helped you get there.

[RolkFlameraven]

I find myself wondering how a scroll of imbue works all of a sudden. After all if you were to read such a scroll it couldn't do anything as you wouldn't have spells to imbue into yourself would you? Unless the scroll itself already as one or more spells already imbued into it for the user of the scroll? And if you make such a scroll do you lose a level 4 spell slot until such time as someone reads it and then uses the spells that you took the time to imbue into the scroll?

I just find myself wondering just how expensive such a scroll would be, with it being a fourth level spell, being a fourth level spell slot tax for maybe your whole life and, possibly two firsts and a second level all in one scroll. The fourth, two firsts and a 2nd are easy, but that 4th level slot as a tax? And all of that is based off the idea you can even imbue the scroll with the spells in the first place, because normally a spell completion item like that wouldn't work in that way.

It would instead make whom ever read the scroll imbue the target with the spells and cost THEM that 4th right? My table has never used this spell so I'm trying to work my way through it. But if my thoughts are indeed how it works, then using UMD on a scroll of imbue wouldn't give you anything but up to three more arcane spells at the cost of one of your 4ths if you were a Sor, correct?

[Âmesang]

I love sorcerers. I do! They've been my favorite class ever since I first started with 3rd Edition. I love the fluff. I love the crunch. Yeah, they didn't get as many goodies as wizards (at least not at first), but I just loved the flavor. Playing a wizard felt like playing a jedi. Playing a sorcerer felt like playing as a non-whiny Anakin Skywalker.* Even when attempting to stat out a deity of magic I went with sorcerer because it felt more natural for the deity to be naturally imbued with magic instead of merely studying it like a mere mortal (and simply created a salient divine ability, Heart of Arcana, that'd allow the sorcerer god to know all sorcerer and sorcerer/wizard spells as well as creating new ones on the fly—basically having Divine Spellcasting/Heart of Arcana instead of Arcane Mastery/Divine Spellcasting/Spontaneous Wizard Spells).

However, just because they're my favorite… doesn't mean I think they beat wizards. I recognize that a well-played wizard can beat out a sorcerer, even if the two are neck-and-neck; at the end of the day… when all is said and done…


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d6/TheWiz.png

*Although I honestly did like his Episode III line, "his fate will be the same as ours." 'Bout the most Jedi-like he ever got in the films.


I was on the original LordDrako thread. Towards the end, I even got him to admit he was wrong about a rule (specifically using Wish to do Psychic Reformation to alter a class feature, when it can only change skills, feats, and powers known).
Though, to be fair, I believe limited wish/wish/miracle can also perform actions "of equivalent power." I'd imagine swapping out spells could be considered equivalent to swapping out powers (and, at least with limited wish, you're still comparing a 7th-level spell with a 4th-level power; alternatively a spellcaster could just research a "magic reformation"). EDIT: Also the Epic Level Handbook describes The Simbul using wish to swap out her sorcerer spells, so there's that…

[Biguds]

Hello guys.

As RolkFlameraven said, the question about the scroll of I.W.S.A left me wondering. I think that you merely cast Imbue yourself, so you need to transfer your own cleric spells.
So, even with a scroll, you still need a cleric, right?

[Sorry about the english]

[RedMage125]

Though, to be fair, I believe limited wish/wish/miracle can also perform actions "of equivalent power." I'd imagine swapping out spells could be considered equivalent to swapping out powers (and, at least with limited wish, you're still comparing a 7th-level spell with a 4th-level power; alternatively a spellcaster could just research a "magic reformation"). EDIT: Also the Epic Level Handbook describes The Simbul using wish to swap out her sorcerer spells, so there's that…

He wasn't using it to change spells known. He was using it to alter which Marshal Aura he had, which is outside the purview of Psychic Reformation. Then he tried to cite "retraining" rules from the PHB2, without reading them (they only allow that upon leveling up).

No, he's got poor knowledge of the rules. Take now for instance. He thinks if a spell appears on a domain list that makes it divine casting. So I guess by his logic, Burning Hands is a divine spell because it appears on the Fire Domain list.

Hey Drako...
If a cleric has the Fire Domain, is he casting arcane spells when he uses his domain slot for Burning Hands? Or are Wizards and Sorcerers casting divine spells when THEY cast Burning Hands?

Or..you know...that ACTUAL rules, which you don't understand...which is that when a wizard or sorcerer casts the spell, they cast it as an arcane spell, but when a Fire domain cleric casts it, it is a divine spell. The same thing happens with Divine Sorcerer and Arcane Disciple.

That's how all the people who have been playing this game for years and speak English as a first language know how it works, because it says so. You just think you know better than all of them, huh?

[Bad Wolf]

You know, it'd probably be easier for everyone if Drako just posted a level-by-level breakdown of his build.

[lichbolado]

Honestly, Planar Touchstone feat(Catalogues of Enlightenment, Planar Handbook pg 168)
Divine or Arcane?

[Technetium43]

Once per day, you may cast a spell from the cleric domain you have chosen, as though you had prepared the spell normally. You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell and have a Wisdom equal to 10 + the spell’s level.

Normally for an arcane caster would mean it was arcane. If you're a divine caster, normally means divine. If you're not a caster... who knows???

[lichbolado]

Sorcerer dont prepare spells.

Wisdom based

[Bad Wolf]

Honestly, Planar Touchstone feat(Catalogues of Enlightenment, Planar Handbook pg 168)
Divine or Arcane?

Looking at the book, the touchstone is on Mechanus. How are you supposed to get their at level 7?

[Technetium43]

Arcane Disciple is also wisdom based, and yet isn't Divine. Being based on Wisdom doesn't automatically mean Divine.

[lichbolado]

Arcane Disciple:
Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells


Planar touchstone feat:
It dont add domains spells to arcane list.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Planar Touchstone runs into the problem where the higher order ability does not grant you the ability to cast spells at all. It either grants you the ability to use cleric spells as SLAS or use cleric spells as supernatural abilities (the gamr gives no indication of which), but in either case you are not casting spells.

[Biguds]

I'd like to throw some texts that can be relevant.

Higher-Order Ability: The ability gained by someone who visits the touchstone and fulfills the recharge condition. This ability is limited to a number of uses per recharge, and thus can be used up, until such time as future visit is made. all higher-order abilities are considerade either supernatural or spell-like, as indicated in each ability's description

Higher-Order Ability: Once per day, you may cast a spell from the cleric domain you have chosen, as thought you had prepared the spell normally. You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell and have a Wisdom equal to 10 + the spell's level.

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:

10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer.

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

Pardon for any typing errors.

[Technetium43]

Planar Touchstone runs into the problem where the higher order ability does not grant you the ability to cast spells at all. It either grants you the ability to use cleric spells as SLAS or use cleric spells as supernatural abilities (the gamr gives no indication of which), but in either case you are not casting spells.

Sorry, this is correct. I actually brought up that ruling earlier, but was confusing the discussion with another one I was having.

[RedMage125]

Here's what Arcane Disciple says:
Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed for that feat. You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell's level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat. Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
Bold added for emphasis. Domain spells from Arcane Disciple are STILL arcane spells when cast by a wizard or sorcerer.

You even quoted it yourself. Arcane Disciple does NOT grant casting of Divine Spells.

Also, Drako, you didn't answer me about Fire domain clerics and Burning Hands. Here it is again:

If a cleric has the Fire Domain, is he casting arcane spells when he uses his domain slot for Burning Hands? Or are Wizards and Sorcerers casting divine spells when THEY cast Burning Hands?

Or...you know...that ACTUAL rules, which you don't understand...which is that when a wizard or sorcerer casts the spell, they cast it as an arcane spell, but when a Fire domain cleric casts it, it is a divine spell. The same thing happens with Divine Sorcerer and Arcane Disciple. They are spells which normally appear on a domain spell list, but the sorcerer casts them as arcane spells.

That's how all the people who have been playing this game for years and speak English as a first language know how it works, because it says so in the descriptions for the feat and ACF, respectively.

So according to you, how does that work?

Planar Touchstone runs into the problem where the higher order ability does not grant you the ability to cast spells at all. It either grants you the ability to use cleric spells as SLAS or use cleric spells as supernatural abilities (the gamr gives no indication of which), but in either case you are not casting spells.



Sorry, this is correct. I actually brought up that ruling earlier, but was confusing the discussion with another one I was having.

You forgot to add *drops microphone*, lol

[Necroticplague]

The center point of the argument appears to be "domain spells are always divine spells", with the 'unless stated otherwise' implicit to all rules in DnD. Is there any actual source/proof for this, or is that just an assertion they've made?

[Virdish]

The center point of the argument appears to be "domain spells are always divine spells", with the 'unless stated otherwise' implicit to all rules in DnD. Is there any actual source/proof for this, or is that just an assertion they've made?

Entirely just a assertion.

[lichbolado1]

I've searched around, and people differ on the topic.

If I take the Domain Access ACF of the sorcerer, does it qualify for having the Magic domain for the requirements of Dweomerkeeper?



Yes. The relevant text is here in bold:

Domain Access

"Your depth of belief allows you to channel divine power the way a cleric does. By doing so, you gain access to a single cleric domain.
Level: 5th.

@BadWolf thread! Question about qualifying for Dweomerkeeper [3.5]

Replaces: To gain this benefit, you do not learn a new 1st-level sorcerer spell and a new 2nd-level sorcerer spell at 5th level. From now on, you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level (not counting the domain spells from this alternative class feature).

Benefit: Choose one cleric domain. If you worship a specific deity, the domain you choose must be one to which your deity grants access. You gain the granted power of the chosen domain. In addition, you can cast one domain spell of each spell level available to you per day from that domain."

It also appears that this permits you to cast these spells as Divine Spells, as the paragraph with the bold text also says that when you are casting these spells, you are channeling divine power the way a Cleric does. This would seem to indicate that your domain spells function in a manner identical to the way they would for a Cleric (eg. the spells are Divine, and are keyed off of Wisdom rather than Charisma for DCs, and whether or not you can cast them).

Huh, so I don't even have to take divine caster levels. Thanks.

Hypocrisy.



@Topic,

In 10 years of D&D 3.5, I have so far not seen a single Wizard build capable of being a challenge to the Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow.
Be honest. Lord of the Sevenfold Shadow build counter all Wizards Defenses. There is no chance to escape.

Can I say, Lord of Sevenfold Shadow is the real Arcane-King?

[AvatarVecna]

Can I say, Lord of Sevenfold Shadow is the real Arcane-King?

You can say it all you like, that doesn't make it true.

[lichbolado1]

You can say it all you like, that doesn't make it true.
Prove it,
Create or list a build that can be a challenge.

The build that you created in Wizard Competition I would be wrecked by my clone (Body outside Body).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Prove it,
Create or list a build that can be a challenge.

The build that you created in Wizard Competition I would be wrecked by my clone (Body outside Body).

First make the build legal.

[eggynack]

In 10 years of D&D 3.5, I have so far not seen a single Wizard build capable of being a challenge to the Lord of The Sevenfold Shadow.
Be honest. Lord of the Sevenfold Shadow build counter all Wizards Defenses. There is no chance to escape.

Can I say, Lord of Sevenfold Shadow is the real Arcane-King?
You just think that no wizard builds can challenge this sorcerer build because you staunchly refuse to accept when you're utterly defeated. These builds that you keep saying you can beat crush yours into a trillion little pieces without breaking a sweat, and gusts of wind can do nothing to stop them. It doesn't help that your build isn't exactly legal. At the very least, its method of metamagic reduction is reliant on a 3rd party source, and there're apparently huge mistakes all over the place.

But that's not the main issue. Even if everything here works, even if we allow all your ridiculousness to stand as written, you still fall to something as simple as, say, hide life. Unless it's been changed since tome and blood, hide life is instantaneous, so AMF doesn't impact it, and after that you do nothing but damage, so the wizard survives just fine. That's to say nothing of astral projection, which allows the wizard to not especially care about his death.

Also, seriously? Lichbolado1? Kinda losing faith in this forum's ability to stop people from coming back. It's probably expecting way too much to think that some poor put upon moderator would be standing over potential users, monitoring them for copies, but jeez, that's some audacious closeness of username.

[lichbolado1]

First make the build legal.

Then you can start to create.

I'll make it easier, Lord of the Sevenfold Shadow decided to attack alone a Schol of Magic, What will be the defense of the Wizards?