Delay Spell (3.5)

[SirNibbles]

I was thinking about a build that uses Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials, and Delay Spell in order to cast 5 spells before the enemy NPC even knew combat had begun (we could continue having a conversation and I could be casting these spells).

Round 1: Cast spell with 5 round delay
Round 2: Cast spell with 4 round delay (4)
Round 3: Cast spell with 3 round delay (3, 3)
Round 4: Cast spell with 2 round delay (2, 2, 2)
Round 5: Cast spell with 1 round delay (1, 1, 1, 1)
Round 6: The effects of all 5 spells instantly activate.

How do I make sure the enemy doesn't notice the spells with Detect Magic?

In what order do the spells activate?

What spell (or spells) would be best for this tactic to be able to hit a wide variety of enemies? I'm somewhat limited on variety due to likely needing Arcane Thesis for each spell being used to cut the +5 down to +2.

What extra Metamagics should I apply? Is Fell Drain a good option?

Thanks.

[Khedrac]

Unfortunately without some way of disguising spellcasting (e.g. the skill trick conceal spellcasting) simply eliminating the verbal, material and somatic components of a spell does not stop it being obvious that you are spell casting (for example you still provoke unless casting defensively). Quickening will avoid the potential AoO, but again, it does not disguise the casting action.
Now casting spells does not automatically begin combat, so you might be able to cast in this manner If there is no obvious effect the other party might even conclude that your casting failed, but without some method of hiding the cast (which none of the feats do) your first spell will cause initiative before you cast it (unless you get surprise).
So yes, but might delay combat after initiative is rolled, but equally, they might attack before you even cast the first spell triggered by your decision to enter "combat".

[flappeercraft]

Unfortunately without some way of disguising spellcasting (e.g. the skill trick conceal spellcasting) simply eliminating the verbal, material and somatic components of a spell does not stop it being obvious that you are spell casting (for example you still provoke unless casting defensively). Quickening will avoid the potential AoO, but again, it does not disguise the casting action.
Now casting spells does not automatically begin combat, so you might be able to cast in this manner If there is no obvious effect the other party might even conclude that your casting failed, but without some method of hiding the cast (which none of the feats do) your first spell will cause initiative before you cast it (unless you get surprise).
So yes, but might delay combat after initiative is rolled, but equally, they might attack before you even cast the first spell triggered by your decision to enter "combat".

You should consider using Invisible spell, but I would reccomend one of the spells to be ray of dizziness which is like single target slow as a ray but no save.

[SirNibbles]

Unfortunately without some way of disguising spellcasting (e.g. the skill trick conceal spellcasting) simply eliminating the verbal, material and somatic components of a spell does not stop it being obvious that you are spell casting (for example you still provoke unless casting defensively). Quickening will avoid the potential AoO, but again, it does not disguise the casting action.
Now casting spells does not automatically begin combat, so you might be able to cast in this manner If there is no obvious effect the other party might even conclude that your casting failed, but without some method of hiding the cast (which none of the feats do) your first spell will cause initiative before you cast it (unless you get surprise).
So yes, but might delay combat after initiative is rolled, but equally, they might attack before you even cast the first spell triggered by your decision to enter "combat".

Is there a specific piece of text that says that spellcasting is obvious even if there are no components that can be sensed? I'm perplexed at how the enemy would notice me casting a spell when I literally do nothing and then nothing happens.

"Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks."
-Quote regarding awareness at the start of combat

Listen checks should be dealt with when we eliminate the verbal component from our spells with Silent Spell.

Spot checks should be dealt with when we eliminate the somatic component from our spells with Still Spell and we don't need to reach into our Spell Component Pouch thanks to Eschew Materials. With Delay Spell, the spell has no physical manifestation until the round it activates, not the round it is cast. There's nothing to see that would give it away (though I supposed I could throw in invisible spell just for the sake of completeness).

Reading page 170 of the PHB (Casting Spells: Concentration) indicates that you have to concentrate on a spell if you're being distracted. Having a conversation isn't listed as being a distraction. Strong wind blowing blinding rain or sleet into your face is a DC 5+SL Concentration check. How low would the check for 'listening to the priest talk about the history of the church' be compared to that?


You should consider using Invisible spell, but I would recommend one of the spells to be ray of dizziness which is like single target slow as a ray but no save.

You cannot apply Delay Spell to Ray of Dizziness- Delay Spell can only be applied to spells with a range of Touch or Personal or spells that affect an area. Targeted spells and rays can't be delayed.

[Khedrac]

Is there a specific piece of text that says that spellcasting is obvious even if there are no components that can be sensed? I'm perplexed at how the enemy would notice me casting a spell when I literally do nothing and then nothing happens.
Not a specific piece, but it's the absence of any text stating that casting without components fails to provoke attacks of opportunity.
The fact that simply casting a spell is a distracting-enough action to provoke means that it is very noticeable that you are doing something (not necessarily casting a spell though).
The presence of the skill trick means that without the skill trick it is fairly obvious what you are doing (though at this point I would say that a componentless spell and a spell-like ability are probably hard to tell apart without making a hard spellcraft check).


"Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks."
-Quote regarding awareness at the start of combat
And this is what gives you a surprise round if they fail it.


Listen checks should be dealt with when we eliminate the verbal component from our spells with Silent Spell.
Agreed.

Spot checks should be dealt with when we eliminate the somatic component from our spells with Still Spell
Ah no - you still have to perform a distracting action which is obvious to anyone if they are in combat with you. You don't have to perform the intricate gestures that make up the somatic component, but you still have to take an action. That is several seconds of doing something, even is that something is now standing absolutely still concentrating on something. This is an obvious action.

and we don't need to reach into our Spell Component Pouch thanks to Eschew Materials. With Delay Spell, the spell has no physical manifestation until the round it activates, not the round it is cast.
Also agreed.

There's nothing to see that would give it away (though I supposed I could throw in invisible spell just for the sake of completeness).
Disagreed as mentioned above.

Reading page 170 of the PHB (Casting Spells: Concentration) indicates that you have to concentrate on a spell if you're being distracted. Having a conversation isn't listed as being a distraction. Strong wind blowing blinding rain or sleet into your face is a DC 5+SL Concentration check. How low would the check for 'listening to the priest talk about the history of the church' be compared to that?
There is 'concentrating on a spell', and there is 'concentrating on a spell'. Here we hit a limitation of English - I cannot think of a different word to use for paying attention to what you are doing when casting a spell. I don't mean making a concentration check (possibly with a chance of failure) as in casting when distracted or casting defensively; I mean that you have to focus your attention on casting the spell which distracts you from what is going on around you (thus provoking an AoO unless you go for casting defensively).

Now because the skill trick works for spells even if they have somatic and verbal components, a good argument can be made that when you cast a componentless spell people around you know you did something, but they don't know what (with the skill tricks added they probably don't know that anyone did anything). The decision on whether people know that what you did was cast a spell is undefined enough to be a reasonable DM's call.
The position that you don't need the skill trick to conceal that you did "something" is house-rule or it would not provoke AoOs in combat (or out of combat).

[ExLibrisMortis]

You should really consider switching over to psionics. No verbal/material/somatic components, and a Concentration check can conceal all displays (flashes, bangs, smells etcetera). Delay Power is right in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You save yourself four feats and have your main trick up at level 3.

[Venger]

I was thinking about a build that uses Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials, and Delay Spell in order to cast 5 spells before the enemy NPC even knew combat had begun (we could continue having a conversation and I could be casting these spells).

Round 1: Cast spell with 5 round delay
Round 2: Cast spell with 4 round delay (4)
Round 3: Cast spell with 3 round delay (3, 3)
Round 4: Cast spell with 2 round delay (2, 2, 2)
Round 5: Cast spell with 1 round delay (1, 1, 1, 1)
Round 6: The effects of all 5 spells instantly activate.

How do I make sure the enemy doesn't notice the spells with Detect Magic?

In what order do the spells activate?

What spell (or spells) would be best for this tactic to be able to hit a wide variety of enemies? I'm somewhat limited on variety due to likely needing Arcane Thesis for each spell being used to cut the +5 down to +2.

What extra Metamagics should I apply? Is Fell Drain a good option?

Thanks.
Time stop is the usual complement to this strategy, but unless you're already starting at high levels, it's not really a useful suggestion. When are you starting out with this character?

I strongly advocate working born of three thunders in. If you're dabbling with arcane thesis, see about snowcasting to get flash frost in the mix as well, alongside the aforementioned invisible spell to get your total level down and add additional effects.


You should consider using Invisible spell, but I would reccomend one of the spells to be ray of dizziness which is like single target slow as a ray but no save.
with enough reducers as mentioned above, you could consider split ray.


You should really consider switching over to psionics. No verbal/material/somatic components, and a Concentration check can conceal all displays (flashes, bangs, smells etcetera). Delay Power is right in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You save yourself four feats and have your main trick up at level 3.

this is also a solid idea. talk to your gm about entering prcs as a kineticist, they're usually not too difficult to adapt.