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Stryyke
2016-12-14, 07:59 AM
This isn't part of my next campaign, but it might be part of a future campaign that may run in tandem on alternating weeks.

The first problem is scope. In most settings, what is the scope of the various gods. I get the impression that they are omniscient, since players can "speak" to them regardless of geography. Can most gods be contacted across planar boundries? Is it an understood that they live on a different plane? Is there any way to access that plane?

The second problem is power. I doubt any party can sneak up on a god, so they will always have to contend with their power. But if a god could be killed by conventional powers, they wouldn't be gods. They would be powerful wizards. I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that. Just having the PCs talk their way through, or solve some riddles seems just silly. Then anyone with a bit of luck and an INT score could defeat them. I'm wondering what other possible interesting final confrontations exist, where swords and darts are of no use. Everything I come up with seems lame, too easy, or no better than just stabbing god with a sword.

The closest I've come to something that makes actual sense, and isn't completely lame, is the Kryptonite approach. But I'm hoping other people have some interesting ideas.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-14, 09:01 AM
This isn't part of my next campaign, but it might be part of a future campaign that may run in tandem on alternating weeks.What setting and system do you have in mind? These may be relevant.


The first problem is scope. In most settings, what is the scope of the various gods.It varies, naturally. In Eberron, for instance, they're so distant that it's possible they may not even exist.


I get the impression that they are omniscient…Not really. Even in some of the highest-powered D&D settings, they "merely" perceive that which falls into their domain as (or, for more powerful gods, before) it happens.


Can most gods be contacted across planar boundries?Depends on the setting, system, et cetera.


Is it an understood that they live on a different plane?See above.


Is there any way to access that plane?More often than not, though seldom is it easy.


I doubt any party can sneak up on a god…You'd be surprised. :smallamused:


…so they will always have to contend with their power.Which is not always insurmountable.


But if a god could be killed by conventional powers, they wouldn't be gods.This is wildly incorrect.


They would be powerful wizards.Can they not be both?

(Rhetorical question, they totally can.)


I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that.You might have to expand on this.


Just having the PCs talk their way through, or solve some riddles seems just silly. Then anyone with a bit of luck and an INT score could defeat them.By this logic, anyone could have invented the nuclear bomb, yet it wasn't until relatively recently that they were made.


I'm wondering what other possible interesting final confrontations exist, where swords and darts are of no use.Just as a reminder, Balder, who was very much a god, was killed by a dart.


Everything I come up with seems lame, too easy, or no better than just stabbing god with a sword.You say that like stabbing a god with a sword was a bad thing. :smalltongue:


The closest I've come to something that makes actual sense, and isn't completely lame, is the Kryptonite approach.Funny that you should mention Kryptonite, since the only thing stopping Supes from being a god is a lack of worshippers.


But I'm hoping other people have some interesting ideas.I'll try and post something in a bit, I have a bus to catch, 'kay? :smallsmile:

Stryyke
2016-12-14, 10:01 AM
"I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that."

To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability. If they don't have those things, do they even classify as gods? You suggest that gods can just be really powerful mortals, but in my mind, they aren't gods. Just really powerful mortals.

Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.

As for setting, breadth of information is helpful. I have a setting in mind, but I like to look at a lot of other settings, and keep the parts I think fit.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-14, 10:30 AM
To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability. If they don't have those things, do they even classify as gods?Yes. The real-world definition of "god" is "a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes." No omniscience or omnipotence required. No invulnerability or immortality required. No actual power over nature or human fortunes required.


You suggest that gods can just be really powerful mortals, but in my mind, they aren't gods.You're setting a pretty high bar there. Most gods from real-world mythologies couldn't pass it.


Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.Done, see above.

SimonMoon6
2016-12-14, 10:39 AM
"I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that."

To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability.

Well, there's your problem.

You may thinking of God versus gods. There is a certain ethnocentrism in assuming that all gods that anybody has every worshipped would have to be similar to the Judeo-Christian deity who has the properties that you describe. But most gods in most mythologies are very very different. Most gods are not omniscient. Most gods can be killed and often are killed. This is just a thing that happens in the various mythologies of the world. Now, if you want to have a Judeo-Christian deity in your world, well, good luck; there's very little game support for such a concept (even if things like paladins and clerics are really built assuming such an ethnocentric world view). If you want a polytheistic mythology that has any basis in the world mythologies of reality then you have to abandon such concepts as gods being omniscient and invulnerable.



If they don't have those things, do they even classify as gods? You suggest that gods can just be really powerful mortals, but in my mind, they aren't gods. Just really powerful mortals.


I have been thinking about this for a while, trying to establish the difference between superheroes and gods:

(1) Gods are immortal (but possibly killable). Left to their own devices, the gods will live forever (though sometimes, this may be due to the foods they eat), but it is possible that they will be killed (as in Norse, Greek, and Egyptian mythologies, for example).

(2) Gods have powers greater than most mortals.

(3) Gods may have worshippers but that's not necessary (as there are gods that are not worshipped).

(4) Gods tend to be part of the same family, so that we can say, "These guys are gods". Like, some of the children of the Greek Titans are the Greek gods (and some other relatives as well). Typically, the gods are either the guys who have been around since the beginning of time (and their relatives) or are descended from people who have been around since the beginning of time.

(5) Gods have a "portfolio", a particular field in which they are the absolute ruler. Poseidon is ruler of the sea; other gods don't do anything involving the sea. Hades is ruler of the underworld; the other gods can't do anything involving the underworld. And so forth. This doesn't work so well in a D&D setting where, say, if two gods are both 20th level clerics, then they can both cast any of the cleric spells, including but not limited to the ones involving the sea or the underworld.

SimonMoon6
2016-12-14, 10:41 AM
Funny that you should mention Kryptonite, since the only thing stopping Supes from being a god is a lack of worshippers.


There was a story once where Superman was being worshipped and he had to tell people to cut it out. But does that elevate him to the status of a god? I would say no.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-14, 11:03 AM
To be fair, that's more a case of him refusing to let himself be categorized as a god. Compare to his Themysciran counterpart, Wonder Woman, who battles, calls on, and even occasionally has membership in the Greek pantheon; I wouldn't hesitate for a second to call her a goddess. Or Thor, in Marvel Comics - sure, folks can argue that he's "just" an alien or whatever, but there's a point where they're just refusing to call a spade a spade.

Altair_the_Vexed
2016-12-14, 11:20 AM
I blogged on this topic a while back (http://running-the-game.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/gods-what-are-they-for.html) - it all boils down to this: what is the point of the "gods" in your setting?

It's up to you whether the gods are really divine powers, or more like some uppity energy being from classic Star Trek. BUT! You have to decide, and stick to it.
(Of course, you might have more than one type - "real" gods, and fake ones, too!)

BarbieTheRPG
2016-12-14, 11:44 AM
....
Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.
....

There it is. Decide what a god is in your setting first.

Stryyke
2016-12-14, 12:21 PM
Excellent work guys. You all get an "A" for effort. Thanks so much for your input. Very good information.

Let's see how I can explain what I'm searching for. I think my new campaign is most inspired by the Daedric princes from the Elder Scrolls series. But my issue stems from The Wheel of Time.

At the end of the Wheel of Time, Rand is tasked with destroying "the Dark One." Upon confronting the dark one, however, rather than engaging in a test of martial skill, the Dark One successfully convinces Rand that the very world that he seeks is no better than the world the Dark One imagines. Rand ends up sealing the Dark One away again, rather than destroying him.

While I wouldn't use that specific ending, it has me thinking about the possibility of a campaign that is very much D&D through the whole campaign, but with a different type of conclusion. Having the players tasked with simply touching the Big Bad with a specific item, for instance. Where the "final fight" requires all the player's skill, is interesting, but does not involve simply killing the Big Bad in the exact same way you just disposed of all of his/her minions.

BarbieTheRPG
2016-12-14, 12:34 PM
Why not use mythology as your guide? Plenty of stories there about ancient heroes defeating awesome terrors. Usually they begin with a quest, which turns into a series of quests until enough magic items are gained to save the day.

The ancient heroes were successful because they had both human and divine help.

Klara Meison
2016-12-14, 01:08 PM
"I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that."

To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability. If they don't have those things, do they even classify as gods? You suggest that gods can just be really powerful mortals, but in my mind, they aren't gods. Just really powerful mortals.

Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.

As for setting, breadth of information is helpful. I have a setting in mind, but I like to look at a lot of other settings, and keep the parts I think fit.

>To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability.

High-level wizards, at least in Pathfinder/3.5, have both. They also can semi-easilly repeat most "godlike" feats you would find in the folklore, like whatever greek gods did, or 10 egyptian plagues. You may need to clarify a bit more.

>But if a god could be killed by conventional powers, they wouldn't be gods. They would be powerful wizards.

Nethys from Pathfinder, a god of magic, is a very high-level wizard. That's how he became a god-by being the wizardest wizard that ever wizarded wizarding.

Personally, if I wanted to define what constituted a god in dnd, I'd give them properties like:


Immune to aging.
Can't be killed by a lv1 commoner at all, either through invulnerability, physical toughness, or being capable of self-resurrection. Any means to kill a god require either special artifacts or for you to be at least close to their level of Badass.
Can grant other people spells.
Outclasses low-level mortals by far in their speciality and at least matches the strongest/toughest/wizardiest in the fields they don't specialise (e.g. a god of magic should be at least as good at melee combat as the best lv 1 fighter out there).
Can receive and respond to prayers in some way.
Very likely posess a host of immunities and/or resistances.

Thinker
2016-12-14, 01:13 PM
Excellent work guys. You all get an "A" for effort. Thanks so much for your input. Very good information.

Let's see how I can explain what I'm searching for. I think my new campaign is most inspired by the Daedric princes from the Elder Scrolls series. But my issue stems from The Wheel of Time.

At the end of the Wheel of Time, Rand is tasked with destroying "the Dark One." Upon confronting the dark one, however, rather than engaging in a test of martial skill, the Dark One successfully convinces Rand that the very world that he seeks is no better than the world the Dark One imagines. Rand ends up sealing the Dark One away again, rather than destroying him.

While I wouldn't use that specific ending, it has me thinking about the possibility of a campaign that is very much D&D through the whole campaign, but with a different type of conclusion. Having the players tasked with simply touching the Big Bad with a specific item, for instance. Where the "final fight" requires all the player's skill, is interesting, but does not involve simply killing the Big Bad in the exact same way you just disposed of all of his/her minions.

Just because a god dies, doesn't mean it has to stay dead. Zeus, Osiris, Ishtar, Quetzalcoatl (possibly, though he doesn't return to his worshipers), and Baldr (stays dead, but could have returned to life if all living things had wept for him) are good examples. In many mythologies with an afterlife, dying isn't the end of an entity's existence and there are often ways to return for those heroic, skilled, or clever enough to figure it out. That could be part of the arc - Dark One is killed and defeated, but that doesn't seem to stop the badness from happening. That could have been a part of his plan all along - he needed to travel to the land of the dead to retrieve some object. To finally defeat him, the players might need to stop him from using whatever mechanism allowed him to return the first time (which may have bigger consequences for the world) or they might have to find a way to use his death against him - maybe the new Dark One cannot travel across hallowed ground and so he becomes trapped in a church cellar since he cannot leave.

GungHo
2016-12-14, 04:02 PM
It kind of comes down to either you can or you can't. If you can, then you branch off into "how hard is it?".

It can be insanely hard, to the point of "practically impossible".
It can be "exotic means only".
It can be "same stuff that kills anyone else, just more of it"
It can be "that's it?"

You get to decide where to go on that continuum.

Freed
2016-12-14, 06:38 PM
Trick the god into changing into a weaker human form, or using a great amount of power right before the fight. Kinda similar to the kryptonite but not exactly.

veti
2016-12-14, 07:08 PM
Just because a god dies, doesn't mean it has to stay dead.

In D&D this is true of everyone, though.

I would take a tip from the death of Baldur. For each god, let there be some sort of rules/prophecy about their death, and that is the only way they can be killed. In Baldur's case, it involved a weapon fashioned from mistletoe. Like Cronus could only be killed by one of his own children, or Macbeth (not a god, but still) could only be killed by someone born by caesarian...

So if you want to kill a particular god, you have to find out what their vulnerability is (i.e. what the rules/prophecy say about them - this may or may not be general knowledge, and may or may not be known by the target - merely learning this information could be a major quest in its own right). Give the prophecy a precise yet vague wording, leave room for player creativity. Then it's up to the players to engineer the situation necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

Thinker
2016-12-14, 07:34 PM
In D&D this is true of everyone, though.

Just because default D&D doesn't treat death as a serious obstacle, doesn't mean that you have to follow suit. Besides, in many stories the protagonist returns to life after death (from Osiris to Heracles to Superman).


I would take a tip from the death of Baldur. For each god, let there be some sort of rules/prophecy about their death, and that is the only way they can be killed. In Baldur's case, it involved a weapon fashioned from mistletoe. Like Cronus could only be killed by one of his own children, or Macbeth (not a god, but still) could only be killed by someone born by caesarian...

So if you want to kill a particular god, you have to find out what their vulnerability is (i.e. what the rules/prophecy say about them - this may or may not be general knowledge, and may or may not be known by the target - merely learning this information could be a major quest in its own right). Give the prophecy a precise yet vague wording, leave room for player creativity. Then it's up to the players to engineer the situation necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

That would be a lot of prophecies or a lot of immortal gods.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-14, 07:44 PM
Like Cronus could only be killed by one of his own children, or Macbeth (not a god, but still) could only be killed by someone born by caesarian...Well, no, Macbeth was prophesied not be harmed by one of woman born, but that doesn't mean he's immune to a stone crumbling off the parapets and striking him on the head. Or his bed catching fire.

Fri
2016-12-14, 09:20 PM
There's an interesting disconnect with the western use of the word "god" here.

In some language (including my native) there are two words people use to talk about divine beings, "god" (to discuss about cooking god, god of gambling, thor, odin), and "God" (actual omniwhatever Deity with capital D).

So yeah, "god" is easily killable depending on settings. People kill gods all the time in fictions. Demigods or gods' bastard childs are kinda good at it :smallamused:

In Exalted setting, gods are involved in Celestial Bueraucracy, there are a couple of super powerful gods that rule over time or whatever, but there are thousands if not millions of minor gods that just maintain over a single lake or town or whatever, and the PCs punch them in daily basis.

In some settings (like Discworld) gods are shaped by believe and can wither into nothingness if nobody believe in them. The story of Discworld "Small Gods" is about the god of a major civilization that almost wither into nothingness because barely anybody in its civilization actually believe on it anymore and only do rituals for the sake of rituals/politics.

In DnD, IIRC actual difference between "gods" and "powerful wizards" is that gods have "Deity Level" and it bypass a lot of things and prevent a lot of things. Common way to bypass a Deity Level is having Deity Level yourself, that's why gods can kill gods in DnD, though particularly crafty mortals can also bypass it. Mortals can also gain Deity Levels one way or another and become gods that way (usually by somehow killing a god and stealing their portofolio).

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-14, 10:05 PM
Well, yeah, English makes that distinction, too, though not everyone bothers to notice the difference. For the record, I've been limiting my part of this to "lowercase-g" gods.

And yeah, 3rd Edition D&D introduced Divine Ranks, but it's not like they actually de-legitimized anything else being capable of claiming godhood; it just boosted those beings that had divine ranks from "about on par with a wizard" to "about on par with a wizard, with some more wizard hastily shoved in there."

Lord Raziere
2016-12-14, 11:05 PM
There's an interesting disconnect with the western use of the word "god" here.

In some language (including my native) there are two words people use to talk about divine beings, "god" (to discuss about cooking god, god of gambling, thor, odin), and "God" (actual omniwhatever Deity with capital D).


Thats why I generally the term "Spirit" to refer to any being that is merely "divine" rather "all powerful ruler of an abstract domain of existence" an angel or a demon or a fae is a spirit, a god is far more. it leads to less confusion.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-15, 01:07 AM
I don't see it as particularly avoiding confusion if people have to ask why you keep referring to Thor as the spirit of thunder.

(Also, spirits are not necessarily gods and vice-versa.)

Lord Raziere
2016-12-15, 01:18 AM
I don't see it as particularly avoiding confusion if people have to ask why you keep referring to Thor as the spirit of thunder.

(Also, spirits are not necessarily gods and vice-versa.)

No, Thor is a god. a valkyrie on the other hand is a spirit.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-15, 03:24 AM
No, Thor is a god. a valkyrie on the other hand is a spirit.Thor is not the "all powerful[sic] ruler of an abstract domain of existence." Please, make up your mind.

Lord Raziere
2016-12-15, 03:40 AM
Thor is not the "all powerful[sic] ruler of an abstract domain of existence." Please, make up your mind.

No, he is The God of Thunder, you said it yourself. thats a domain. Rather than A spirit of thunder that is merely apart of many spirits of thunder. He is a unique powerful being that rules all thunder.

veti
2016-12-15, 03:49 AM
Well, no, Macbeth was prophesied not be harmed by one of woman born, but that doesn't mean he's immune to a stone crumbling off the parapets and striking him on the head. Or his bed catching fire.

"No man of woman born" - you're right, that does leave a lot of possibilities. Anyone female, for a start. I believe the Lord of the Nazgul had a similar deal, with a similar loophole.

But discounting those, because this was Elizabethan theatre... "No man of woman born" could harm him. So, although he could theoretically be killed by crumbly masonry, if you were a MoWB, you couldn't successfully arrange for that to happen (couldn't push it, or lay a trap), because that would be harming him.

Obviously this approach requires a lot of customisation. But I don't think that's a weakness. Killing a god should be something pretty hard to pull off, requiring a lot of homework and meticulous planning. For some gods, there may not be any prophecy - then you've got to find someone who's prepared and qualified to make one, and try to prevent it from coming to the target's attention...

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-15, 03:52 AM
No, he is The God of Thunder, you said it yourself.I don't particularly care if you are able to find an instance of me using one article adjective over another, that doesn't make him the god of thunder by the definition you gave.


thats a domain.No, it's a phenomenon caused by the weather. Lots of gods have some manner of power over the weather even in Norse myths, and Thor is hardly unique in that regard. Even if it was and Thor was the only being or spirit who could cause thunder to happen, that still falls short of thunder-omnipotence.


Rather than A spirit of thunder that is merely apart[sic] of many spirits of thunder.See above.


He is a unique powerful being that rules all thunder.Unique? Yes, but not part of your criteria. Powerful? Yes, but not the "all powerful[sic]" from your criteria. Rules all thunder? Not quite; at bare minimum, he's gotta compete with Zeus, the Thunderbirds, Jupiter, and so on.

Lord Raziere
2016-12-15, 06:16 AM
Unique? Yes, but not part of your criteria. Powerful? Yes, but not the "all powerful[sic]" from your criteria. Rules all thunder? Not quite; at bare minimum, he's gotta compete with Zeus, the Thunderbirds, Jupiter, and so on.

Suddenly other pantheons now are in this discussion? These are all different mythologies that are mutually incompatible worlds and views of how things work, often developed without any knowledge of the other. What are the meta-mythological rules? I doubt anyone who worshipped Thor was thinking "oh but these other gods rule the thunder on that other continent on the other side of the world. Thor only controls our thunder." That we see any commonality or can put them into the same class of being at all is a product of our modern world sharing all this information and comparing notes.

I mean a flood being an apocalypse that devoured the entire world was a lot more plausible back when your entire world seemed to be an isolated village next to the river. They could not have possibly accounted for the world being round, a globalist society, or being able to get from one end of the globe to the other in a span of hours. What was all powerful then is quaint now only by perspective. But nevertheless they were believed to be all powerful.

I mean even the assumption that the gods might say, rule these domains in a geographical territorial sense with say, Jupiter taking Italy and Thor taking Finland or something is a thing one would invent to make sense of those two thing contradicting each other rather than anything the people actually believed, a meta-myth rule that would be established only as a way of setting ground rules.

Please define your meta-myth rules and stop silently assuming everyone already knows them.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-15, 07:27 AM
Please define your meta-myth rules and stop silently assuming everyone already knows them.Simple: Call things what they are… or even don't if you want, but if you don't because it doesn't jibe with how you want it to be, don't act like you're doing it in this grand gesture of avoiding confusion, since it's causing confusion.

Having utter control, mastery, unsurpassible power over one's domain is not part of what makes a god a god (hell, even having a domain isn't). A god can have something like this, mind, but it's not at all as common as you're making it out to be, so gatewaying godhood status behind it is nonsensical.

Thinker
2016-12-15, 08:45 AM
There's an interesting disconnect with the western use of the word "god" here.

In some language (including my native) there are two words people use to talk about divine beings, "god" (to discuss about cooking god, god of gambling, thor, odin), and "God" (actual omniwhatever Deity with capital D).

So yeah, "god" is easily killable depending on settings. People kill gods all the time in fictions. Demigods or gods' bastard childs are kinda good at it :smallamused:

In Exalted setting, gods are involved in Celestial Bueraucracy, there are a couple of super powerful gods that rule over time or whatever, but there are thousands if not millions of minor gods that just maintain over a single lake or town or whatever, and the PCs punch them in daily basis.

In some settings (like Discworld) gods are shaped by believe and can wither into nothingness if nobody believe in them. The story of Discworld "Small Gods" is about the god of a major civilization that almost wither into nothingness because barely anybody in its civilization actually believe on it anymore and only do rituals for the sake of rituals/politics.

In DnD, IIRC actual difference between "gods" and "powerful wizards" is that gods have "Deity Level" and it bypass a lot of things and prevent a lot of things. Common way to bypass a Deity Level is having Deity Level yourself, that's why gods can kill gods in DnD, though particularly crafty mortals can also bypass it. Mortals can also gain Deity Levels one way or another and become gods that way (usually by somehow killing a god and stealing their portofolio).

I think that the distinction between god and other magical being is largely arbitrary. Some like to say that a god requires devoted worship, otherwise its a fey, spirit, nymph, kami, daemon, angel, djinn, or some other non-god being. But I think that is false. Many divinities did not seek out worship, but they were worshiped anyway. If you believe that the river floods because Hapi makes it so, you will ask it to make the flood beneficial to you. Since many divinities have human-like urges and desires, they might be willing to do so out of vanity, greed (sacrifices), or altruism. Or they might do what they're going to do anyway, but it can't hurt to ask.

Thinker
2016-12-15, 08:51 AM
No, he is The God of Thunder, you said it yourself. thats a domain. Rather than A spirit of thunder that is merely apart of many spirits of thunder. He is a unique powerful being that rules all thunder.

So, what do you do about Hapi, the god of the annual flooding of the Nile; Sati, the goddess of the flooding of the Nile; Anaka, the goddess of the Nile; Khnum, the god of the Nile (or the source of the Nile, depending on time period); Sobek, the god of the Nile; and Nephthys, the goddess of rivers? They're all from Egyptian mythology and all of them received worship and were a part of religious ceremony and tradition regarding the way the Nile worked. Some of them had additional roles, but that was not considered their primary purpose in the world.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-15, 09:55 AM
Judging by earlier posts, Raziere would probably mentally demote all but one of them to mere "spirits" and set the most "powerful" one over the others.

Lord Lemming
2016-12-17, 05:02 AM
"No man of woman born" - you're right, that does leave a lot of possibilities. Anyone female, for a start. I believe the Lord of the Nazgul had a similar deal, with a similar loophole.

But discounting those, because this was Elizabethan theatre...

To my understanding, Macbeth was actually at least partly the reason why Tolkien included the Lord of the Nazgul (or, Witch King) bit. Tolkien didn't like the technicality of 'no man of woman born' being 'man born slightly differently.' So, Tolkien wrote his own version.

It was said of the Witch King: "Not by the hand of man shall he fall." The Nazgul assumed this to mean that no man could kill him, and so his humiliation was all the greater when he was killed by a woman, Eowyn.

Technically, in the grammatical context of the prophecy regarding the Witch King, 'man' refers not to any individual male human, but to the human race in general. This means that his fall must have actually been caused by the hobbit, Merry, that stabbed him in the back seconds before he could kill Eowyn and gave her the chance to finish him.

So there you have it. A needlessly involved novice-level breakdown of one master of English literature's attempt to improve upon the work of ANOTHER master of English literature. :smallsmile:

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-17, 11:46 AM
It wasn't even the only Macbeth reference in LotR; remember when Birnam Wood marched on Dunsinane Hill? :smallamused:

Jay R
2016-12-17, 01:21 PM
Baldur died in Norse mythology, slain by a mistletoe spear or arrow. All the gods are to die in battle at Ragnarök.

Quetzalcoatl burned himself to death in one Aztec myth.

Tammuz was a Babylonian shepherd-god, whose death was mourned yearly.

In Hindu mythology, Shiva killed Ganesha by beheading him. (Eventually he was brought back t life, using the head of an elephant in place of his original one.)

In the Mahabharata, Krishna was killed by an arrow, and ascended into heaven at that time.

In Egyptian mythology, Osiris was slain by Set.

The titan Chronos ate his children, the first Olympian gods. But his wife slipped him a stone instead of the infant Zeus, so Zeus grew up and replaced Chronos on the Olympian throne.

The idea that a god can be killed is pretty common, actually. The notion that they can't be killed is (relatively) recent.

Lord Lemming
2016-12-17, 02:51 PM
The titan Chronos ate his children, the first Olympian gods. But his wife slipped him a stone instead of the infant Zeus, so Zeus grew up and replaced Chronos on the Olympian throne.

The children were eaten, yeah, but they didn't die. I think that the Olympian gods, Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and their ilk, were actually unkillable. You could imprison them, injure them, sometimes even defeat them, but you couldn't destroy them. At least, I don't think that there are any stories where any of the Olympians were killed. There were, however, plenty of lesser beings below the Olympians who could be killed who other mythologies would probably call gods.

Millstone85
2016-12-17, 03:05 PM
Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.

Option A: tautological divinity
Someone's god is a god, even if someone's god is a dragon, an average Joe, a boulder of unusual shape or a legend.

Option B: the power of worship
Similar to A, but being regarded as a god by enough people gives magical powers. Side effects include gaining sentience or coming into existence.

Option C: sufficiently advanced magic
It is indistinguishable from divinity. Alternate title: biggest fish in the pond.

Option D: great watchmaker
They made this world and/or its races. That's why they are the gods.

Option E: great clockwork
You killed the god of the sea? No wonder the waves and the deeps all turned into solid salt.

Mith
2016-12-17, 03:28 PM
The children were eaten, yeah, but they didn't die. I think that the Olympian gods, Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and their ilk, were actually unkillable. You could imprison them, injure them, sometimes even defeat them, but you couldn't destroy them. At least, I don't think that there are any stories where any of the Olympians were killed. There were, however, plenty of lesser beings below the Olympians who could be killed who other mythologies would probably call gods.

I think that in some stories, Chronus cursed Zeus with the same curse that Oranus cursed him: To be overthrown by his own child/son. (I cannot remember the exact wording).

Because of this curse, Zeus ate Metis, in the form of a fly, to prevent any child born from her, who would be greater than him. This led to the birth of Athena who is the child of Divine Right of Kings and Wisdom/ Good Counsel.

Also, Achilles mother was predicted to have a son that would greatly surpass his father, which is why Zeus and Poseidon avoided her and placed her with Peleus, Achilles father.

WhovianBeast
2016-12-17, 03:37 PM
You get another god to do it. PCs may not be able to kill gods due to power problems, but why not be able to bribe/manipulate them? You (the GM) can always invent a turf war.

Jay R
2016-12-17, 04:05 PM
The children were eaten, yeah, but they didn't die. I think that the Olympian gods, Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and their ilk, were actually unkillable. You could imprison them, injure them, sometimes even defeat them, but you couldn't destroy them. At least, I don't think that there are any stories where any of the Olympians were killed. There were, however, plenty of lesser beings below the Olympians who could be killed who other mythologies would probably call gods.

True. That example was stretching it. The others are good, though.


Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.

Since that varies wildly by mythos, and we don't agree on a single mythos, no such clarification is possible.

You cannot clarify what is not defined.

Aeson
2016-12-17, 04:48 PM
True. That example was stretching it. The others are good, though.
One could argue that "imprisoned in Tartarus" and "banished to Tartarus" are euphemisms. The spirits of the dead go to the underworld and cannot in general return, thus those who are slain could be said to be banished to and imprisoned within the underworld, and Tartarus is simply that portion of the underworld (or perhaps more accurately the abyss beneath the underworld) to which the dead whom the gods wish to punish most severely are sent. As for why you'd use a euphemism, well, if you believe in the religion/stories/etc or if we're talking about a fictional setting where the gods are both real and powerful, it's perhaps unsafe to openly report or comment upon the more serious indiscretions of the gods - especially the more powerful gods - and patricide and other intra-family killings tend to be regarded as rather serious crimes.

Komatik
2016-12-17, 08:36 PM
@OP in addition to D&D's knowledge of their domains, Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicle contains spirits that gain attention of when their names are spoken. Random mentions are of course no interest but repeat mentions of their name can draw... undesirable attention to you.

Âmesang
2016-12-17, 09:18 PM
So something I've sometimes pondered: are deities immune to time stop? Or would attempting to contact a deity during that spell (such as via miracle) fail because you're undetectable? :smallconfused:

Cluedrew
2016-12-17, 09:21 PM
Thats why I generally the term "Spirit" to refer to any being that is merely "divine" rather "all powerful ruler of an abstract domain of existence" an angel or a demon or a fae is a spirit, a god is far more. it leads to less confusion.Despite the flack this definition got, I think it is a good starting point. Of course like "magic" we have to adjust the definition for different... sets of lore (real-world or fictional) because they didn't agree on a single definition ahead of time.

Still some common characteristics I tend to look for in "gods":
Omnipresence: Hardly universal yet to me it is perhaps the most iconic feature of gods.
Domains: Gods are usually the god of something so (possibly on top of some general powers) often have extremely great, perhaps even infinite, power in a single area
Above Magic: If the setting also contains magic, gods seem to have a power that does not quite obey the same rules. Usually in a "superior" way.
Immortal: Some times merely un-aging, other times utterly unkillable by any stretch of the imagination. The latter usually comes from:
Outside the World: Gods don't live in the world with us. Everything we see of them is their reaching into the world. They are still beyond it.

As for how to kill one... my general answer to that is: No. Still it depends on the setting and story you want. If you are really interested, go track down Emperor Tippy.

Nozza
2016-12-17, 09:35 PM
In a Homebrew, D&D 5e-based campaign I once took part in, the players were tasked with preventing the resurrection of Gruumsh, (the god of destruction), who had been slain by demi-gods long ago. The Demi-Gods were unable to truly slay Gruumsh, as he was not trapped in a mortal body and would have just returned to the Lower Planes if he had been killed. So they sealed his soul in four phylacteries and scattered them apart.

The players were unable to prevent the resurrection, but being mere mortals, they would not have even been able to repeat the same thing the Demi-Gods did. So they resorted to trapping Gruumsh in a Mortal Body so they could handle him. By interrupting the ritual, they managed to prevent Gruumsh from being resurrected in God-Form, and instead trapped him inside the corpse of a Tarrasque. Our sorcerer, who was well-versed in the lore of the world, knew that if Gruumsh was trapped in a mortal body, it would begin to decay. The weaker the body, the faster the decay, and if the body decayed completely, he would simply take God-form again. So we trapped him in the strongest body we could to prevent him from decaying into God-hood, and had to kill the Tarrasque manually before Gruumsh was able to escape from it. By doing so, our Sorcerer managed to extract Gruumsh's soul from the Tarrasque and absorb it himself, acting as a living phylactery. We then exiled our Sorcerer to the Astral plane, where he would never die, and Gruumsh would never escape.

So I'd say try and strip the God of what makes them strong. Try to trap them in a mortal shell, or take away their power.

Frozen_Feet
2016-12-19, 06:09 PM
As far as my hack of the d20 divinity rules go:

Most gods are mortal. They might not even be very high level. So you find out their race, class etc. and plan accordingly.

If you cannot fight them directly, you could try attacking their instances. If a god loses all their instances, they may lose divine ranks and even cease to be gods. For example, to defeat a god of war, end the wars he is god to.

If the above is too hard, you might try to attack a god's worshippers. A god's power is not directly proportional to number of worshippers, but having few of them usually prevents them from ascending in divine rank. More, if a god's worshippers are whittled down to just one, and the worshipper feels betrayed by their god, they may lay a blood curse against the god and become anathema to them.

Speaking of anathemas, most gods have vulnerabilities against some things opposed to their portofolios. For example, rats might be anathema to god of grains. The presence of anathema is nauseating to gods, they bypass regeneration and defenses of a god, and they cannot be affected by Salient Divine Abilities.

In case of really powerful gods, none of the above might be particularly helpful. Some Salient Divine Abilities make a deity properly immortal. They might still be vulnerable to being reduced to a mere spectre, weaker than the weakest shadows, if the artifacts they are tied to are destroyed, but this isn't the same as death.

Some gods might be entirely unkillable save by a higher ranking God of Death reciting a death for them.

---

As for my current game setting, "killing a god" ranges from fairly doable to mindless endeavor. Like "magic", "god" refers to the supernatural, and there is no definition of supernatural which is univeral across cultures. Hence, the only commonality "gods" have is that they have, at some point, been called such by humans.

Some gods are incarnations of ancestral spirits. They can be killed when they have physical form on Earth, but this just banishes them to the spirit realm. To truly rid the world of them, all descendants of them have to be eliminated.

Other gods are extraterrestrial beings. Many are dead by default, it's just that "dead" is not a permanent condition for them and does not stop them from influencing the world around them.

Yet others are manifestations of cosmic forces. You cannot kill them, quite often they are not alive to begin with. They cannot be destroyed within bounds of the existing world, as they define those boundaries. Gods of death are the best example; they are emptiness given temporary form, they spawn when its cold and dark from dead leaves, snow, sand etc. A human may keep one at bay with a mere torch, but regardless of whether you destroy a dozen, a hundred or a thousand, you have not deprived them of anything vital, because the very concept of "vital" is inapplicable. To destroy them, you would have to reverse entropy, but you can think and observe entropy only because it works the way it does.

Hence why trying to "kill" the last kind of gods is "mindless"; whatever would need to be done to destroy them would also destroy you as a conscious being.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-20, 12:21 AM
In the games I run, there are a great many spirits that inhabit the world, and while all kinds would enjoy mortal worship in some fashion or another, the spirits who act as overseers to the objects, places, and concepts of the living world enjoy the most worship by far. Mostly by dint of sharing the most real estate with their mortal worshippers; elemental spirits trend toward some pretty inhospitable regions, demons spend most of their time in the demon realm, the Fair Folk live on the borders of reality itself, and ghosts continue their existence in the land of the dead.

Most things that get worshipped as gods tend to have a number of supernatural powers, making them harder to kill than a basic human (but remember that much like humans, you don't necessarily have to kill them to defeat them). The terrestrial gods I mentioned earlier even lack a physical body as a baseline, though they have means to materialize by creating a body in some fashion. If they are killed, they may yet persist via divine sanctums they've built, or restore themselves to life with worship, but it's an uncertain thing and usually somewhat diminishing. Certain gods will also have certain banes; for instance, the god of the ocean is fated to be destroyed by a specific dagger, so that dagger has the power to kill him permanently (but given that fate is not all-powerful in my games, something else could possibly kill him).