How does Bloodrager stack up?

[Aasimar]

Howdy playground.

I'll be starting in a new game of pathfinder soonish, and I've been thinking about the bloodrager class.

Mostly it was pointed out to me by the GM, when I explained that given the background setting of far north in Greyhawk, I might want to play a barbarian or some sort of brute-type fighter, but that I also wanted to have some arcane spellcasting.

The original idea was pretty much to go melee dragon disciple, with minimal spellcasting. (just using the spellcasting from the qualifying class and Dragon Disciple to self boost, but nothing more)

I would have paired that with either fighter or barbarian (or maybe paladin if I could have envisioned it properly)

But, bloodrager having been pointed out to me, I have to say I'm seeing some possibilities.

Particularly in Steelblooded (the heavy armor variant). I'm even starting to see the appeal of abandoning the dragon disciple angle altogether and go for abyssal, destined, or some combination of two of the three (abyssal, destined or draconic) via crossblooded.

I definitely see the character as melee oriented, I'm thinking greatsword, but maybe a reach weapon if I were to go into the whole smarty-pants trip/AoO thing.

I'm also considering half orc and keen scent, to be a tracker.

Anyway, how would this stack up against a barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple? Or a barbarian/sorcerer(crossblooded abyssal/draconc)/Dragon Disciple?

Or is all of this utterly bad and I should feel bad?

The group is pretty low op.

Traits aren't used, but some backgrounds from some other thing the GM has from 3.5 are used instead.

I'm mostly looking for something cool to do, that's still functional.

[Krazzman]

Primalist is most often mentioned as a good archetype.

Maybe looking for a Bloodrager handbook might be good. Don't know if there is one in the optimisation guides compendium posted on this forum.

[Psyren]

Bloodrager is T3 and yes, there is a handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uV52XseHRUMKOM-fLF6oXwkF-bcmmPk93XR8u02-sYw/edit)

[Serafina]

As for how it stacks up:
The Dragon Disciple is really meant for natural attack builds. You get Claws and a Bite, have medium BAB and no features that make you better at weapons directly.
The Bloodrager can engage in any type of melee combat, depending on Bloodline. They can even increase their reach with Aberrant, which is pretty rare, and can also get a lot of other features that make them better at melee combat. Including full BAB.

So really your question here should be "do I want to play a Dragon-flavored natural attacker, or not?"
If you do, then either a Draconic Bloodrager or a Dragon Disciple work. The former will be more melee-focussed, while the latter can get different/more spellcasting.
If you don't, then the Bloodrager is a great, varied class that can also get Barbarian powers like the Barbarian (via the Primalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/primalist) archetype), and is probably even the best melee class for a reach defender build.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Bloodragers are pretty beast. Hands down one of my favorite melee classes It's really hard to go wrong with them.

The other posters have given sound advice, but heres my two copper.

1) If you go the Dragon Disciple route, make sure your DM allows the class to use your bloodrager bloodline instead of the sorcerer one. It's not a bad way to go if you wanna rip creatures apart with claw and bite attacks. You kinda get diminishing returns past level 6 IMO, because the main draw of DD (for me) is the stat boosts.

2) Check with your DM before grabbing Primalist as it's kinda broken. It's banned by Pathfinder society because it makes the barbarian sorta obsolete, and there's really no draw back to taking it other than maybe disqualifying you for some other archetypes.

[Geddy2112]

Second the above.

I personally think aberrant is the best bloodline, because it lets you qualify for the aberrant tumor, which is a familiar for the cost of a single feat. And it can hide on your body...very good.

A guy in my gaming group once ran an utterly nasty grippli aberrant steelblood bloodrager-other than race, he was a highly optimized reach/combat reflexes/critfish machine.

[upho]

Howdy playground.Hullo.



But, bloodrager having been pointed out to me, I have to say I'm seeing some possibilities.I believe the bloodrager is quite likely the most powerful and versatile of all Paizo classes without access to spells above 4th level. It's largely limited to melee, but has a chassis and several options which can make it very good at virtually any chosen specific melee combat style/role focus, such as control, damage, debuff, tanking and/or combinations thereof.


Particularly in Steelblooded (the heavy armor variant).From a purely mechanical point of view, I find the steelblood somewhat weird, since it mostly trades defensive features for other defensive features. But generally speaking, I think it loses more than it gains.

For most bloodragers, Fast Movement and (Improved) Uncanny Dodge is going to be more valuable than heavy armor with a slightly smaller speed penalty, Armor Training and a CMB bonuses so small it's barely worth mentioning (and an equally small CMD bonus so situational it's not worth mentioning at all). But most importantly, I have a very hard time seeing any bloodrager being better off by trading DR for the frankly crappy Blood Deflection. Exchanging one of your precious few spells/day for a minor deflection bonus is generally going to be a very bad trade (especially when considering the deflection bonus clashes with the 1st level staple spell protection from evil and later on with a ring of protection).

But perhaps for a tank build in a game limited to lower levels (say 1-7 or so), it may be at least equal to the standard version since AC will matter more and keeping it competitive could still be worth the required costs.


I'm even starting to see the appeal of abandoning the dragon disciple angle altogether and go for abyssal, destined, or some combination of two of the three (abyssal, destined or draconic) via crossblooded.This primarily depends on what you're looking to do in combat. Very roughly speaking, I'd pair melee combat roles with the stronger bloodlines as follows:

1. Control/Debuff Aberrant - reach is king, especially if you can use combat maneuvers and debuffs (I recommend demoralization via Cornugon Smash and a cruel weapon). Combine with a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes and combat maneuver feats (Dirty Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat), trip and/or dirty trick feats recommended). Wonderful with the primalist archetype, especially for nabbing the Come and Get Me rage power at 12th.
2. Damage Abyssal or Draconic with 4 or more levels in DD - both are good for wielding weapons, but especially well suited for natural attacks, and such a focus is typically the main reason for taking more than 4 DD levels. (Natural attacks has some potential issues though, more on this later.) If going abyssal, keep in mind you'll probably need to compensate for your abyss-mal (ha ha) AC with spells like blur and displacement. Best combined with the beast totem rage powers via the primalist archetype, granting you pounce at 12th.
3. Tanking Arcane - free blur and displacement will make you very difficult to hit (and free haste is great if none of your friends can cast the spell for some weird reason). I'd probably trade out the 12th level power for the superstition and Come and Get Me rage powers via the primalist archetype.
4. Any Destined - won't be quite as strong as the above in one particular role, but is good for combinations.

Keep in mind that this mostly describe the leanings of these bloodlines, but it's perfectly possible to make a great bloodrager which combines a combat role with a different bloodline than according to the above. Like with barbarians, this is especially true when it comes to damage, since basically all bloodragers can be at the very least decent damage dealers regardless of their other focus.

Remember that you can trade out your first level bloodline power for a bloodline familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar#TOC-Bloodline-Familiars), which is often a good idea both in terms of fluff and crunch. The primalist archetype is, as TheFamilarRaven mentioned, potentially very strong. So considering the modest optimization level of your group, it may not always be a great idea to get the mechanically most fitting rage powers (such as those mentioned above). Otherwise, I think it's a great option for adding extra flavor, and you'll find several unique neat little tricks to choose from even if not opting for the most mechanically powerful ones.

And speaking of optimization, if the game is expected to continue into higher levels, focusing on natural attacks can be kinda tricky, balance-wise. This is mainly because many natural attacks can be gained at 1st level (up to 5), which can easily make you very OP in comparison to the other PCs, while you may have problems keeping up with weapon wielders in higher levels due to the rapidly shrinking number of available options giving you additional attacks. But in most games, natural attackers have the potential to be far greater single-target damage dealers than any other builds during all levels, so you'll need to refrain from focusing too much on damage. (I can give you more specific tips and details if you're interested in this.)



I'm also considering half orc and keen scent, to be a tracker.That can certainly work. And check out the Sacred Tattoo Alternate Racial Trait!


Anyway, how would this stack up against a barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple? Or a barbarian/sorcerer(crossblooded abyssal/draconc)/Dragon Disciple?If you're primarily looking to be a frontline melee guy, the bloodrager is almost certainly going to be a better and less complicated fit.


Or is all of this utterly bad and I should feel bad?Absolutely not! The bloodrager rocks. Hard.


I'm mostly looking for something cool to do, that's still functional.And the bloodrager offers plenty of options for that. Let us know what strikes your fancy and we'll try to help you out.



2) Check with your DM before grabbing Primalist as it's kinda broken. It's banned by Pathfinder society because it makes the barbarian sorta obsolete, and there's really no draw back to taking it other than maybe disqualifying you for some other archetypes.I definitely wouldn't call it broken. I'd say it's not even close to being OP in a game including full casters. But yes, it does put a foot on what at least used to be the barb's special turf, although I think it's well worth to keep in mind the primalist gives a very staggered rage power progression and doesn't grant the Rage Power feature (so no access to the Extra Rage Power feat, for example), which means the barb still very much remains the "king of rage powers".



I personally think aberrant is the best bloodline, because it lets you qualify for the aberrant tumor, which is a familiar for the cost of a single feat. And it can hide on your body...very good.Yeah, who doesn't want to be more like The Thing? And who doesn't want to cuddle with their internal organs? Love the fluff, love the crunch! Extra great when paired with the protector archetype, especially because of the body-horror/comedy weirdness of having a part of your body coming off to defend you and provide flanking... :smallbiggrin:

But at least in higher op games, I prefer doing an alchemist (ragechemist vivisectionist) 2 dip for the discovery and an additional +6 Str during 20 min/day.

[Aasimar]

Thanks a lot for all the input folks, I'll mull it over for a bit, but I think I'll definitely be playing a bloodrager, just a question of archetypes and bloodlines at this point.

This thread has helped a lot.

[Psyren]

From a purely mechanical point of view, I find the steelblood somewhat weird, since it mostly trades defensive features for other defensive features. But generally speaking, I think it loses more than it gains.

For most bloodragers, Fast Movement and (Improved) Uncanny Dodge is going to be more valuable than heavy armor with a slightly smaller speed penalty, Armor Training and a CMB bonuses so small it's barely worth mentioning (and an equally small CMD bonus so situational it's not worth mentioning at all). But most importantly, I have a very hard time seeing any bloodrager being better off by trading DR for the frankly crappy Blood Deflection. Exchanging one of your precious few spells/day for a minor deflection bonus is generally going to be a very bad trade (especially when considering the deflection bonus clashes with the 1st level staple spell protection from evil and later on with a ring of protection).

I have to agree, Steelblooded seemed very underwhelming to me. I can't for the life of me see why it gets rated so highly. Heavy Armor is nice and all, but Mithral Full Plate counts as medium and gets the job done.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

You'd have to be proficient to avoid the (even reduced) ACP from screwing you over, but that is only a feat away. I find the Enlightened Bloodrager archetype is a bit more tanky; no rage penalties, plus Druid spells.

[TheFamilarRaven]

I definitely wouldn't call it broken. I'd say it's not even close to being OP in a game including full casters. But yes, it does put a foot on what at least used to be the barb's special turf, although I think it's well worth to keep in mind the primalist gives a very staggered rage power progression and doesn't grant the Rage Power feature (so no access to the Extra Rage Power feat, for example), which means the barb still very much remains the "king of rage powers".


Well, I meant that's it's relatively busted. If you compare everything to a wizard's power then of course everything else seems acceptable. My point was that it's a pretty cheesy option. It offers no drawback (other than maybe not being able to take another archetype?) and opens up more options. I mean every single suggestion you gave included having the primalist archetype, and rightly so. Because it is THAT good, there's hardly a reason NOT to take it, even if you never end up using it.

For that reason I suggest talking with your DM about it. I know I don't allow it at my table, but that shouldn't stop your DM from allowing it.


EDIT: Just checked, picking up primalist does not inhibit your ability to take other archetypes except for crossblooded so there is absolutely no reason NOT to take it unless you go crossblooded.



I have to agree, Steelblooded seemed very underwhelming to me. I can't for the life of me see why it gets rated so highly. Heavy Armor is nice and all, but Mithral Full Plate counts as medium and gets the job done.

Nitpick,




A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.


But yeah, steelblooded isn't all that great. As the above said, just grab a feat.

[Ssalarn]

Pretty well covered, but just wanted to note that you can combine Dragon Disciple and Bloodrager with intended synergy (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9tml), if you're so inclined.

Bloodrager is a very solid class, hard to go too wrong with whatever choices you make, especially considering you've noted that your group is relatively low op. Most of the ACG classes were made with higher optimization floors and somewhat lower ceilings than their CRB counterparts, so they tend to be pretty good for testing out builds or reading the room with a competent character who won't break the game.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I wrote a little bloodrager mini-guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377753-CTP-s-Guide-to-the-Bloodrager), repeating most of what's been said here.

I crunched the numbers on dragon disciple, though:


A note on Dragon Disciple

Many people consider bloodrager an excellent chassis to go into the Dragon Disciple prestige class.

There are a few minor inconsistencies and bits of confusion that emerge if you go this route, so talk to your GM. The confusions stems from the language of Dragon Disciple's advancing your bloodline abilities; it assumes you're a sorcerer, but the bloodrager's bloodline abilities differ in a few ways, primarily by only functioning if you're raging. It's pretty simple to assume so RAI, and overall such a character will function fine.

The question is, should you do so?

After comparing what is gained and what is lost by going into Dragon Disciple, I've determined that it's largely a wash.

First, don't take all 10 levels of the prestige class. If you do, you're losing out on Greater Bloodrage and the ability to auto-cast your spells when entering a bloodrage. Nothing Dragon Disciple offers is worth losing that; you might even want to wait until level 11 before you take the PrC, just so you don't delay the acquisition of that ability.

You'll also lose rage rounds, barring feats like Extra Rage to help make up the difference.

You'll never gain the maximum benefits of raging, but the inherent ability boosts of Dragon Disciple combined with the improved HD makes it mostly a wash. You'll lose some BAB and CL, but your casting is already limited enough that it won't effect you that much, and you won't lose an iterative attack.

If you're interested in taking Dragon Disciple, I suggest taking it to level 6 or 7, before you get the largely useless INT bump; none of its higher level abilities are much better than what you'd be gaining from Bloodrager itself, and you've already gimped yourself almost 2 minutes of rage a day.

Side by side, a Dragon Disciple Bloodrager will have slightly better stats when not raging, and sport a slightly better AC thanks to the natural armor increase. However, your BAB and CL will lag, which frankly makes it an unattractive option in my eyes.

[Psyren]

^ I agree with some of your points, but just wanted to note that Dragon Disciple advancing Bloodrager bloodlines is an official ruling, (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9tml) not merely RAI.

[squiggit]

I have to agree, Steelblooded seemed very underwhelming to me. I can't for the life of me see why it gets rated so highly. Heavy Armor is nice and all, but Mithral Full Plate counts as medium and gets the job done.

Mithral Fullplate still eats a -2 ACP even with armor expert, which applies to basically everything without proficiency. YMMV on whether or not your GM will let mithral heavy armor slide on ASF too.

I wouldn't say that Steelblood is amazing or anything, but all the people here calling it underwhelming or bad seems a bit strange. It trades a couple mediocre class features for a couple other mediocre class features.

[CockroachTeaParty]

^ I agree with some of your points, but just wanted to note that Dragon Disciple advancing Bloodrager bloodlines is an official ruling, (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9tml) not merely RAI.

Yeah, I saw that, was pseudo-ninja'd. I'll have to update.

[Psyren]

My bad on the full plate.


Mithral Fullplate still eats a -2 ACP even with armor expert, which applies to basically everything without proficiency. YMMV on whether or not your GM will let mithral heavy armor slide on ASF too.

I wouldn't say that Steelblood is amazing or anything, but all the people here calling it underwhelming or bad seems a bit strange. It trades a couple mediocre class features for a couple other mediocre class features.

I don't see how UD/IUD are mediocre. Being flat-footed or flanked is much, much more likely to get you killed or burn party resources than wearing heavy vs. medium armor. (Generally and with a decent Dex score after items, martials with all three types of armor end up with roughly the same AC.) Not to mention that if you keep them, you can qualify for other useful archetypes like Metamagic Rager or Rageshaper instead.

And as someone else mentioned above - trading your spell slots for a pittance of deflection AC is a terrible trade. Bloodragers get some really nice stuff on their list, particularly given that they can rage and apply buffs at the same time.