Help with the future of my Sorcerer

[Solunaris]

As the title suggests, I need some advice about how to approach the future of my character. First, some background knowledge; our party is comprised of a Human Eldritch Champion, a Zendikar Vampire Pact of the Tome Warlock, a Zendikar Goblin Lore Bard, a Human Nature Cleric, and myself a Half-Elf Draconic Sorcerer. Out of all those characters, the Eldritch Champion has the most HP, closely followed by my own and then a rather large gap between him and the next highest; the Cleric. As you may have guessed melee enemies are a major problem for us, and the DM has recently cranked up the difficulty.

So, I've been forced to shore up our front-lines as the only other character that can stand in melee for more than a round or two. My DM was kind enough to allow me to swap some of my cantrips for the SCAG melee ones, give me proficiency in a few martial weapons (Short Swords and Long Swords, half of the Elven weapons training) and even the go ahead to multiclass as a Paladin.

Here are my Stats as of level 7

Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 18

AC: 16 (Unarmored)

My main problem is my low AC and to-hit for melee combat, and I see two general solutions for this. I'll be taking at least two levels in Paladin for proficiencies and a fighting style (plus half spell slot progression, the main reason I am going Paladin instead of Fighter). The question then becomes should I go sword and board, grab medium armor, and take the Defense fighting style to get my AC to 20 (to continue to prioritize my Cha) and leaving myself open for a feat at 18th level or remain unarmored as I am now (still picking up a shield) and get a slower AC increase (18 at 9th, 19 at 14th and 20 at 18th) and lower Cha but a better to hit? Either way I need to take Warcaster since I intend to continue casting spells meaning I won't be able to max out both my Dex and my Cha.

The question boils down to should I go the armored route or the unarmored route?

[SharkForce]

can't help noticing, but...


if all you want out of multiclass is proficiencies and fighting style, fighter and paladin both cost you 1 level of spell slot progression, because fighter does it in one level while paladin takes two levels and you only gain one level of spell slot progression.

if you *also* want the ability to smite and access to 1st level paladin spells, then paladin is probably still the way to go, i suppose. otherwise, a single level of fighter means you'll get new spell levels known one level earlier.

[Specter]

There are many ways to improve AC other than heavy armor.
- wearing a shield (you'll need War Caster for that)
- Shield of Faith (via Cleric/Paladin)
- Shield (grab it if you don't have it already)
- Haste

Other good defensive options:
- Blur
- Mirror Image
- Blink
- Greater Invisibility

So even if you go for a full plate (which you don't need), you should look out for those spells. And you don't need to attack with weapons, definitely.

[Solunaris]

There are many ways to improve AC other than heavy armor.
- wearing a shield (you'll need War Caster for that)
- Shield of Faith (via Cleric/Paladin)
- Shield (grab it if you don't have it already)
- Haste

Other good defensive options:
- Blur
- Mirror Image
- Blink
- Greater Invisibility

So even if you go for a full plate (which you don't need), you should look out for those spells. And you don't need to attack with weapons, definitely.

My problem is that I am finding myself in close range combat as often as the Fighter since all the other party members are deathly allergic to getting hit. Low ACs and low HPs on every character because they're built for range and casting. It's very much a "The Fighter is being overwhelmed in melee annd one of us needs to step up to eat some hits." Do Sorcerers have other ways to attack close range without getting disadvantage other than with weapons?

Also, I wasn't aware that I'd be getting proficiency in heavy armor. I figured I'd have to settle for Half-Plate; did I miss something about multiclassing?

As for the defensive options, I have Shield, Mirror Image, and Haste (though the latter is cast on the Fighter most of the time but I suppose I could twin cast it) and was planning on taking up a shield too. My main concern was about if an 18 AC is alright for a front line fighter until level 14 or if I should strive for 20 immediately.

[Specter]

My problem is that I am finding myself in close range combat as often as the Fighter since all the other party members are deathly allergic to getting hit. Low ACs and low HPs on every character because they're built for range and casting. It's very much a "The Fighter is being overwhelmed in melee annd one of us needs to step up to eat some hits." Do Sorcerers have other ways to attack close range without getting disadvantage other than with weapons?

Also, I wasn't aware that I'd be getting proficiency in heavy armor. I figured I'd have to settle for Half-Plate; did I miss something about multiclassing?

As for the defensive options, I have Shield, Mirror Image, and Haste (though the latter is cast on the Fighter most of the time but I suppose I could twin cast it) and was planning on taking up a shield too. My main concern was about if an 18 AC is alright for a front line fighter until level 14 or if I should strive for 20 immediately.

Oh yeah, Half-Plate, forgot. Even worse for the disadvantage in Stealth.

Thing is, even if you do find yourself in close range, you don't need to attack with a weapon because it wouldn't be good. Twinned cantrips or something like Fireball, Lightning Bolt and Banishment can help you more.

17AC should be fine with Shield. If you do dip, take Fighter for defense fighting style.

[Petrocorus]

Also, I wasn't aware that I'd be getting proficiency in heavy armor. I figured I'd have to settle for Half-Plate; did I miss something about multiclassing?

I think we assumed you were speaking of rebuilding your character with a couple of Paladin level from the start, hence, you'd get the heavy armor proficiency. Because as it is, you cannot multiclass to Paladin, the rules say you need Charisma 13 AND Strength 13 to multiclass.

If you want to multiclass now or without rebuilding your stats, you can only multiclass to Fighter. I'll advise to go SaB, and probably with the Defence Fighting Style, since melee weapon won't be your primary source of damage even in your melee attacks with cantrips.

Concerning the armor, breastplate plus dex plus shield plus FS give you an AC of 19 without disadvantage on Stealth if you care about it and without hindering your movement, a bit better than your unarmoured AC (with shield) and without having to use more your ASI into Dex. You can still go into half-plate later, and magic armour may be easier to find than rings and bracers in your campaign.

I will advise you to consider to ask your DM to rebuild your character and take this Fighter level as your first level, for the heavy armour proficiency (if you don't care about stealth and speed), the Strength save and for a few additional HP. Your race and maybe a background change would let you keep all relevant skill/tool proficiencies.

[Alejandro]

Perhaps your fellow party members should pick up some melee toughness, too. No reason only you have to fix a group problem.

[Rysto]

The nature cleric has medium and heavy armour proficiency. Why isn't he able to last in melee?

[Asmotherion]

Going Paladin 2 will add Divine Smite to your options, and you *can* use it with sorcerer spell slots. You can also quicken your SCAG cantrips while doing so, to make 2 attacks and a lot of dammage.

Most important to consider though, is that SCAG cantrips are melee attacks, not Melee Spell Attacks. That means they use STR or DEX to make the Attack Roll, not your Charisma.

Here is a fix for that as well: 3 Warlock levels, Pact of the Tome, and take Shillelagh with it. Then, use a Quarterstaff to deliver Green-Flame/Booming Blade. You don't need proficiency for it. You also get to pick up Eldritch Blast and Agonising+Repealing Blast in the Process, wich makes you the best Blaster in the Game at the same time.

Finally, with your Paladin Levels you can put on armor and use a shield, and leave your dexterity as is, instead maxing out Charisma eventually. I don't know what level you are, but if you don't have War Caster already, get it ASAP.

Overall, your target Character looks like Warlock 3/Paladin 2/ Sorcerer X. You'll have few spells, but you'll be excelent in both melee and ranged combat.

Taking only Paladin 2 is still viable, but you'll need to max out Dex too, which is less ASI-efficient. Ultimatelly it's up to you. Also note that, if you're planing on a higher level game, you'll never get 9th level spells with the former build. It can also take time to build, and the best solution to do so, is ask your DM to "retrain" your character's class levels. Some DMs allow this, so it's never a bad idea to ask.

[Arkhios]

I think we assumed you were speaking of rebuilding your character with a couple of Paladin level from the start, hence, you'd get the heavy armor proficiency. Because as it is, you cannot multiclass to Paladin, the rules say you need Charisma 13 AND Strength 13 to multiclass.

If you want to multiclass now or without rebuilding your stats, you can only multiclass to Fighter. I'll advise to go SaB, and probably with the Defence Fighting Style, since melee weapon won't be your primary source of damage even in your melee attacks with cantrips.

Concerning the armor, breastplate plus dex plus shield plus FS give you an AC of 19 without disadvantage on Stealth if you care about it and without hindering your movement, a bit better than your unarmoured AC (with shield) and without having to use more your ASI into Dex. You can still go into half-plate later, and magic armour may be easier to find than rings and bracers in your campaign.

I will advise you to consider to ask your DM to rebuild your character and take this Fighter level as your first level, for the heavy armour proficiency (if you don't care about stealth and speed), the Strength save and for a few additional HP. Your race and maybe a background change would let you keep all relevant skill/tool proficiencies.

OP said that their DM gave a go ahead for multiclass, so I'm actually assuming it's fine for the DM that the OP's character doesn't have Strength 13. RAW does say otherwise, but in any given game, DM's word is the law, if and especially when their word is against RAW.

[SharkForce]

Going Paladin 2 will add Divine Smite to your options, and you *can* use it with sorcerer spell slots. You can also quicken your SCAG cantrips while doing so, to make 2 attacks and a lot of dammage.

Most important to consider though, is that SCAG cantrips are melee attacks, not Melee Spell Attacks. That means they use STR or DEX to make the Attack Roll, not your Charisma.

Here is a fix for that as well: 3 Warlock levels, Pact of the Tome, and take Shillelagh with it. Then, use a Quarterstaff to deliver Green-Flame/Booming Blade. You don't need proficiency for it. You also get to pick up Eldritch Blast and Agonising+Repealing Blast in the Process, wich makes you the best Blaster in the Game at the same time.

Finally, with your Paladin Levels you can put on armor and use a shield, and leave your dexterity as is, instead maxing out Charisma eventually. I don't know what level you are, but if you don't have War Caster already, get it ASAP.

Overall, your target Character looks like Warlock 3/Paladin 2/ Sorcerer X. You'll have few spells, but you'll be excelent in both melee and ranged combat.

Taking only Paladin 2 is still viable, but you'll need to max out Dex too, which is less ASI-efficient. Ultimatelly it's up to you. Also note that, if you're planing on a higher level game, you'll never get 9th level spells with the former build. It can also take time to build, and the best solution to do so, is ask your DM to "retrain" your character's class levels. Some DMs allow this, so it's never a bad idea to ask.

i don't get the impression he's been given a go-ahead for a complete redesign of the character from the ground up.

[Citan]

As the title suggests, I need some advice about how to approach the future of my character. First, some background knowledge; our party is comprised of a Human Eldritch Champion, a Zendikar Vampire Pact of the Tome Warlock, a Zendikar Goblin Lore Bard, a Human Nature Cleric, and myself a Half-Elf Draconic Sorcerer. Out of all those characters, the Eldritch Champion has the most HP, closely followed by my own and then a rather large gap between him and the next highest; the Cleric. As you may have guessed melee enemies are a major problem for us, and the DM has recently cranked up the difficulty.

So, I've been forced to shore up our front-lines as the only other character that can stand in melee for more than a round or two. My DM was kind enough to allow me to swap some of my cantrips for the SCAG melee ones, give me proficiency in a few martial weapons (Short Swords and Long Swords, half of the Elven weapons training) and even the go ahead to multiclass as a Paladin.

Here are my Stats as of level 7

Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 18

AC: 16 (Unarmored)

My main problem is my low AC and to-hit for melee combat, and I see two general solutions for this. I'll be taking at least two levels in Paladin for proficiencies and a fighting style (plus half spell slot progression, the main reason I am going Paladin instead of Fighter). The question then becomes should I go sword and board, grab medium armor, and take the Defense fighting style to get my AC to 20 (to continue to prioritize my Cha) and leaving myself open for a feat at 18th level or remain unarmored as I am now (still picking up a shield) and get a slower AC increase (18 at 9th, 19 at 14th and 20 at 18th) and lower Cha but a better to hit? Either way I need to take Warcaster since I intend to continue casting spells meaning I won't be able to max out both my Dex and my Cha.

The question boils down to should I go the armored route or the unarmored route?


My problem is that I am finding myself in close range combat as often as the Fighter since all the other party members are deathly allergic to getting hit. Low ACs and low HPs on every character because they're built for range and casting. It's very much a "The Fighter is being overwhelmed in melee annd one of us needs to step up to eat some hits." Do Sorcerers have other ways to attack close range without getting disadvantage other than with weapons?

Also, I wasn't aware that I'd be getting proficiency in heavy armor. I figured I'd have to settle for Half-Plate; did I miss something about multiclassing?

As for the defensive options, I have Shield, Mirror Image, and Haste (though the latter is cast on the Fighter most of the time but I suppose I could twin cast it) and was planning on taking up a shield too. My main concern was about if an 18 AC is alright for a front line fighter until level 14 or if I should strive for 20 immediately.
Hey ;)

You are on the right way in my opinion with the Paladin dip.
What I would suggest is actually taking a middleground: stay unarmored, but grab a shield with the Protection style. This way, you can greatly help your friend when you have to stand with him.
Also, twin Shield of Faith so both of you gain a nice +2 AC.

Compared to medium armor + Defense, you lose out 2 AC right now (17+1), but the help on your friend with Protection should outweight this significantly in the long run, and you don't have stealth penalty (or grab medium armor but still get Protection).

Also, for your melee attacks, you have four great options:
1. Booming Blade, when you want an enemy to stay put.
2. Shocking Grasp, when you want you or a friend to move away from an enemy without risking OA.
3. Lighting Lure, to move the enemy away from your friends.
4. GreenFlame Blade, when you have two enemies close together.

Shocking Grasp is often forgotten sadly, but works great for you because it means you can sheathe your weapon (so you can cast Sorcerer spells) and still have a good melee option.

Don't also forget Frostbite or Chill Touch for ranged options: the first targets Constitution save and imposes disadvantage on the next attack roll (great to help your friend move away), the other is a melee attack that prevent HP regain. ;)

So basically...
- You want to allow several friends to "disengage"? Shocking Grasp or Lightning Lure, depending on whichever is the most efficient for the situation.
- You want to allow one people to "disengage"? Frostbite does it at range, safer for you.
- You want to force someone to stay put? Booming Blade.

Also, with Paladin, you will get Command and Compelled Duel, which are two other great ways to help defuse a dangerous situation.
Command can deprive several creatures at once (with upcast or Twin) from their whole turn ("Stop").
Compelled Duel is a fun way to disable one (or two with twin) opponents: cast it on a target, stay behind the Fighter, maybe even the Fighter grapple the enemy. Or ask your Cleric to cast Sanctuary on you and put yourself in harm way to block access to your squishies.

Other options you may consider either now or later...
- If you have high enough WIS, dip into Life/Tempest/War Cleric instead of Paladin to gain heavy armor proficiency and cope with the mobility penalty.
- If you have high enough WIS, dip into Monk so you can use quarterstaff with DEX (so no need for Warcaster in this aspect, since quarterstaff would be a focus also).
- Dipping 1 level in Fiend Pact to gain occasional THP. Or dipping 3 to get Shillelagh, so you can use only a quarterstaff as a focus and as a weapon.
- Instead of going Paladin, go Swashbuckler Rogue until you get Uncanny Dodge (meaning you renounce to a fullcaster career).
- If your Warlock pal took Thorn Whips, he should also contribute to soft control sometimes.
- If you are set on using a weapon usually, then favor DEX and take Defensive Duelist. By the time you get it, it's a net +3-4 AC against an attack: great defensive reaction.


But honestly I think it should be enough, and as long as you are still a fullcaster (= Paladin 2-3 will be only dip ever) you should max CHA only. IF really you still have an AC problem later, IMO, you would better spend one feat on a defensive feature (Heavily Armored, Defensive Duelist, Shield Master) rather than 2 ASI on Dex just for the sake of gaining +2 AC and a bit better weapon attack.
One more ASI is no small thing for you after all. ;)

TL;DR: Dip Paladin 2 at least, grab Protection style and wield a shield (don medium armor if you don't care about stealth penalty), prepare Command, Compelled Duel, Shield of Faith. Have (one way or another) Shocking Grasp, Booming Blade and Lightning Lure at least, possibly Frostbite and GFB if you can.
Keep your weapon sheathed as long as you don't require actually using "weapon cantrips", use your action with Shocking Grasp or non-attack cantrips if you are stuck into melee, use your reaction to help your friend or cast Shield if you are targeted.
Twin as necessary, coordinate with your friend, and it should work well.
You have twin Shield of Faith for the defense boost, (twin) Compelled Duel to keep the big one in check, (twin) cantrips to help avoiding Opportunity Attacks.
I'm against casting Haste (especially twinned) if you have to risk yourself in melee though: you'd put your friend (and yourself) in great danger should you lose Concentration.
Against a group, better prepare Slow: you have good chance of affecting at least 1-2 enemies, provides great benefit for the whole party, and no big drawback when the spell end.

[Petrocorus]

OP said that their DM gave a go ahead for multiclass, so I'm actually assuming it's fine for the DM that the OP's character doesn't have Strength 13. RAW does say otherwise, but in any given game, DM's word is the law, if and especially when their word is against RAW.

Oh my. I apparently missed that line in OP's post. My point concerning armor still stands, Paladin or Fighter, OP would probably do better by going the armoured route with breastplate / half-plate plus shield plus Defence FS given his need for durability. He could still ask for a rebuild to take those Paladin levels as first levels. He would lose the Con save proficiency, which means it's not straightly better. then taking the Paladin levels now.

[Solunaris]

Thank you all the advice guys, I think I've got a fairly good idea of how to proceed from here. Especially from Citan for putting forward several ideas I hadn't even considered.

[Citan]

Thank you all the advice guys, I think I've got a fairly good idea of how to proceed from here. Especially from Citan for putting forward several ideas I hadn't even considered.
Glad this helped you. ;) Have fun, and come back sometimes to tell the tale of how you saved your friend's sorry ass (or how your squishies actually drew you out of a risky situation because you suddenly felt so resilient you rushed into danger like a newbie XD).

[Solunaris]

Glad this helped you. ;) Have fun, and come back sometimes to tell the tale of how you saved your friend's sorry ass (or how your squishies actually drew you out of a risky situation because you suddenly felt so resilient you rushed into danger like a newbie XD).

It might be fun to create a post about our journeys; though I am quite terrible at translating events into words. I wanted to include one of our misadventures as an example, but I can't figure out how to write it out without it becoming a jumbled mess of nonsense.