Battle Cleric Help for a Newb (3.5)

[darkcrab34]

Note: Im aware this has likely been asked before, and theres even a handbook, I just need some more pinpoint advice and as thus I offer cookies to all those that help.

Ive been playing DnD 3.5 off and on for a few years, as its the favored system a bunch of my friends use. I usually run melee meat shields as most of said friends don't really enjoy the role. Now im ok with that, as who doesn't like using a metal stick to dish out justice.....or evil. I've had many fun fighter types, heck i was even allowed to use a frenzied berserker once ( that ended as well as you can imagine. I gained two levels and a position in the big bads army for killing my whole party at least >>). Needless to say the next campaign was about staging a rebellion against said emperor, and the raging char returned as a boss.

But enough of my silly stories.

But after so many basic meat shields and grappler types Ive decided to finally step my feet into the spellcaster pool. Now, I was worried about being lost in the vast sea of options offered to casters, but a friend offered me a good middleground.

The battle cleric

I can still be a nice meat shield, and partake in cleric buffs and the other elements of thier spellpool to begin offering me the chance to learn and adapt to spellcasting. He even reminded me that I can start getting used to metamagic via DMM.
tr
Now I found an online book called the clerics handbook, but im seeking some advice to make sure I do this right. First just a few basic rules per my DM mostly. Please read before offering suggestions, its short I promise.
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1. If we don't own the book, it can't be used. Please don't offer me a way to wiggle it outta said DM, it won't work when I mention a few things below. Also online splat books etc are a complete no go.

2. Cheese is fine as long as it isn't nuclear cheese. What I mean to say is, since I'm generally the only proper melee, my DM generally gives me some leeway on a few things to make my life easier.

3. Ill be starting at lvl 11, But I read that goliath is amazing for 1 LA, and he generally doesn't allow for free LA stuff, so i'll be 10 as goliath is said to be amazing for battle cleric.

4. Flaw feats are around, at 2 as well

5. 32 point Buy..naturally 2 more points due to lvl 4/8

-----------------------

Now as per my actual questions....so I can stop wasting your time.

1. What order of feats should I aim for as a battle cleric? I remember seeing that I wanted Divine meta into quick and persist I think? But between power attack and anything else, what kind of order should I put them in?

2. How good is the ordained champion? It looks pretty good, but ive been warned that Hextor himself is a pretty terrible pick for domains(gotta learn about all of THAT) and I really can't say if my DM will let me fiddle with the pre-reqs to make it another god. Also is holy power worth it with the free war domain? Despite that, is Ordained really worth dipping into?

3. Assuming ordained is either bad....or a decent dip are there any other prestiges worth it for a battle cleric? I can't get bone knight as the book isn't in my groups possession mind you

Any help would be massively appreciated for this dnd newb, thanks in advance! Again im sorry if this has been posted 1000 times by now.

[Troacctid]

1. If we don't own the book, it can't be used. Please don't offer me a way to wiggle it outta said DM, it won't work when I mention a few things below. Also online splat books etc are a complete no go.
Which books do you own?


3. Ill be starting at lvl 11, But I read that goliath is amazing for 1 LA, and he generally doesn't allow for free LA stuff, so i'll be 10 as goliath is said to be amazing for battle cleric.
Noooooo goliath is terrible for a cleric don't pick it!

+1 LA is not worth it for what you get. There are a few niche builds where goliath is good, but cleric is not one of them.


2. How good is the ordained champion? It looks pretty good, but ive been warned that Hextor himself is a pretty terrible pick for domains(gotta learn about all of THAT) and I really can't say if my DM will let me fiddle with the pre-reqs to make it another god. Also is holy power worth it with the free war domain? Despite that, is Ordained really worth dipping into?
Yes! It is very good! In fact, it is one of the best ways to do what you are trying to do, so I highly recommend it.

For Hextor, you will want War, Destruction, and Domination domains, although taking Law and trading it for Law Devotion is also reasonable. If Unearthed Arcana is available, the cloistered cleric variant is very strong as well, either trading the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion or keeping it and trading its domain power for a bonus feat.

And yes, divine power is the nuts, especially when you can cast it as a swift action.


1. What order of feats should I aim for as a battle cleric? I remember seeing that I wanted Divine meta into quick and persist I think? But between power attack and anything else, what kind of order should I put them in?
You don't want DMM: Quicken because as an Ordained Champion, you can quicken your War spells for free.

DMM: Persist is not as important for an Ordained Champion, but persistomancy is still one of the most cheesy-powerful things that you can do in this game, so it will still boost your power significantly. Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7260) is a list of spells that you can persist, sorted by spell level and source.


3. Assuming ordained is either bad....or a decent dip are there any other prestiges worth it for a battle cleric? I can't get bone knight as the book isn't in my groups possession mind you
Depends what books you have available, but you can look in my signature for a list of all spellcasting prestige classes. Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1geywITbI4M-Up08SGD-rUHlnobR66aIgKqu7mILkmhU/edit#gid=691970088&fvid=280207147) are all the divine prestige classes sorted by source.

[flappeercraft]

Note: Im aware this has likely been asked before, and theres even a handbook, I just need some more pinpoint advice and as thus I offer cookies to all those that help.

Ive been playing DnD 3.5 off and on for a few years, as its the favored system a bunch of my friends use. I usually run melee meat shields as most of said friends don't really enjoy the role. Now im ok with that, as who doesn't like using a metal stick to dish out justice.....or evil. I've had many fun fighter types, heck i was even allowed to use a frenzied berserker once ( that ended as well as you can imagine. I gained two levels and a position in the big bads army for killing my whole party at least >>). Needless to say the next campaign was about staging a rebellion against said emperor, and the raging char returned as a boss.

But enough of my silly stories.

But after so many basic meat shields and grappler types Ive decided to finally step my feet into the spellcaster pool. Now, I was worried about being lost in the vast sea of options offered to casters, but a friend offered me a good middleground.

The battle cleric

I can still be a nice meat shield, and partake in cleric buffs and the other elements of thier spellpool to begin offering me the chance to learn and adapt to spellcasting. He even reminded me that I can start getting used to metamagic via DMM.
tr
Now I found an online book called the clerics handbook, but im seeking some advice to make sure I do this right. First just a few basic rules per my DM mostly. Please read before offering suggestions, its short I promise.
-----------------------
1. If we don't own the book, it can't be used. Please don't offer me a way to wiggle it outta said DM, it won't work when I mention a few things below. Also online splat books etc are a complete no go.

2. Cheese is fine as long as it isn't nuclear cheese. What I mean to say is, since I'm generally the only proper melee, my DM generally gives me some leeway on a few things to make my life easier.

3. Ill be starting at lvl 11, But I read that goliath is amazing for 1 LA, and he generally doesn't allow for free LA stuff, so i'll be 10 as goliath is said to be amazing for battle cleric.

4. Flaw feats are around, at 2 as well

5. 32 point Buy..naturally 2 more points due to lvl 4/8

-----------------------

Now as per my actual questions....so I can stop wasting your time.

1. What order of feats should I aim for as a battle cleric? I remember seeing that I wanted Divine meta into quick and persist I think? But between power attack and anything else, what kind of order should I put them in?

2. How good is the ordained champion? It looks pretty good, but ive been warned that Hextor himself is a pretty terrible pick for domains(gotta learn about all of THAT) and I really can't say if my DM will let me fiddle with the pre-reqs to make it another god. Also is holy power worth it with the free war domain? Despite that, is Ordained really worth dipping into?

3. Assuming ordained is either bad....or a decent dip are there any other prestiges worth it for a battle cleric? I can't get bone knight as the book isn't in my groups possession mind you

Any help would be massively appreciated for this dnd newb, thanks in advance! Again im sorry if this has been posted 1000 times by now.

Ordained Champion is a realy good class if you act as a fighter who can cast spells instead of as a caster who can fight like a fighter. Hextor is in my opinion really good, take destruction and domination domains as the 2 domains for cleric and then due to ordained champion you get the War domain. With domination domain you get access to the domain spell Monstrous Thrall which is basically Will save or be permanently dominated, especially useful for getting others to help you whether as extra meat shields, casters or controlling those you want to control like a king or something. Destruction domain gets you smite attack once a day and disintegrate which while not the most optimal of things are pretty good and finally War domain works perfectly for a battle cleric as you get free martial proficiency and weapon focus with the deity's chosen weapon which in this case with Hextor is the Flail which is not a bad weapon to use, but IIRC it said somewhere you could instead pick the Composite Longbow or Scimitar im pretty sure.

On feats for a battle cleric I would reccomend just taking Extend spell, Persist spell, DMM Perist and then concentrate on getting feats to fight and or Extra turning.

[Troacctid]

You actually have to take War as one of your first two domains because you need the Weapon Focus to qualify for Ordained Champion.

[darkcrab34]

First of all thank you for all the quick replies. Now ill answer and ask a few questions.

1. If not goliath, are there any suggestions you guys would offer for a battle cleric? I'd rather stay at 1 La tops. Just asking cause the handbook said goliaths were amazing for battle clerics.

2. What books do I own? Honestly near all of em, so as for prestige etc just offer it and ill say if I can't use it. Our total collection is near every book lol.


3. Due to knowledge div, is cloistered cleric better than regular cleric?

4. Outta curiosity, how strong is a well made battle cleric?

Again, thanks for the help.

[flappeercraft]

First of all thank you for all the quick replies. Now ill answer and ask a few questions.

1. If not goliath, are there any suggestions you guys would offer for a battle cleric? I'd rather stay at 1 La tops. Just asking cause the handbook said goliaths were amazing for battle clerics.

2. What books do I own? Honestly near all of em, so as for prestige etc just offer it and ill say if I can't use it. Our total collection is near every book lol.


3. Due to knowledge div, is cloistered cleric better than regular cleric?

4. Outta curiosity, how strong is a well made battle cleric?

Again, thanks for the help.

On race I would reccomend a Human or a Lesser Aasimar as they MOST OF THE TIME are good but not always so you could be worshipping Hextor with no problem. Human because the bonus feat is always good and Aasimar because of the racial bonus to Wisdom.

[Troacctid]

First of all thank you for all the quick replies. Now ill answer and ask a few questions.

1. If not goliath, are there any suggestions you guys would offer for a battle cleric? I'd rather stay at 1 La tops. Just asking cause the handbook said goliaths were amazing for battle clerics.
Well I don't know what the handbook's writer was smoking. :smalltongue:

Illumian is very good. You can either go aeshkrau and use Strength to determine your bonus spells (as well as a +2 bonus to caster level and Strength checks), or naenhoon and get a better version of Divine Metamagic as a racial ability (as well as a +2 bonus on all Int/Con/Wis-based skill and ability checks).

Human is also just generally strong. The bonus feat helps a lot.

I'd probably go with one of those two.


3. Due to knowledge div, is cloistered cleric better than regular cleric?
That and other reasons. Basically, it gives you a bunch of really great bonuses in exchange for losing a tiny bit of HP and some BAB that you don't even care about because of divine power.


4. Outta curiosity, how strong is a well made battle cleric?
One of the strongest classes in the game.

[darkcrab34]

Well I don't know what the handbook's writer was smoking. :smalltongue:

Illumian is very good. You can either go aeshkrau and use Strength to determine your bonus spells (as well as a +2 bonus to caster level and Strength checks), or naenhoon and get a better version of Divine Metamagic as a racial ability (as well as a +2 bonus on all Int/Con/Wis-based skill and ability checks).

Human is also just generally strong. The bonus feat helps a lot.

I'd probably go with one of those two.


That and other reasons. Basically, it gives you a bunch of really great bonuses in exchange for losing a tiny bit of HP and some BAB that you don't even care about because of divine power.


One of the strongest classes in the game.

Dumb question than, I get how divine power makes the BAB issue irrelevant, but what about the hp issues? If in gonna be a front liner, Wont I miss the higher hp?

Also I'm definatly gonna max that champion prestige, saw another prestige that I may aim for after that. I got the book for ruby knight indicator....or I think thats what its called. internet is terrible here so my searching power Is horrendous.

How is said ruby knight prestige after champion?

[stanprollyright]

1. If we don't own the book, it can't be used.

In that case, what books are available?


2. How good is the ordained champion? It looks pretty good, but ive been warned that Hextor himself is a pretty terrible pick for domains(gotta learn about all of THAT) and I really can't say if my DM will let me fiddle with the pre-reqs to make it another god. Also is holy power worth it with the free war domain? Despite that, is Ordained really worth dipping into?

3. Assuming ordained is either bad....or a decent dip are there any other prestiges worth it for a battle cleric? I can't get bone knight as the book isn't in my groups possession mind you

I've never played a battle cleric per se, but in general any full casting PrC with a decent HD is better than straight Cleric. BAB isn't important because of divine power. I'm not a big fan of Ordained Champion because of the reduced caster level, but if you only go 3 levels (so you only lose 1 CL) it might be good. If you have Complete Divine, I'd suggest looking at Divine Oracle, Church Inquisitor, and Contemplative (obligatory dip at 10 for an extra domain at the very least). A dip into Prestige Paladin from UA can be nice if you have decent Cha.

[flappeercraft]

Dumb question than, I get how divine power makes the BAB issue irrelevant, but what about the hp issues? If in gonna be a front liner, Wont I miss the higher hp?

Also I'm definatly gonna max that champion prestige, saw another prestige that I may aim for after that. I got the book for ruby knight indicator....or I think thats what its called. internet is terrible here so my searching power Is horrendous.

How is said ruby knight prestige after champion?

I have not played Ruby Knight Vindicator but I have heard it is really good but mostly for Paladins with battle blessing which on paper seems pretty good but since you are going to be a battle cleric I'm not sure. Also the problem is that for Ordained Champion you need to worship Hextor/Heironeous while for RKV you need to worship Wee Jas so that is something you need to consider, its one or the other.

[darkcrab34]

I have not played Ruby Knight Vindicator but I have heard it is really good but mostly for Paladins with battle blessing which on paper seems pretty good but since you are going to be a battle cleric I'm not sure. Also the problem is that for Ordained Champion you need to worship Hextor/Heironeous while for RKV you need to worship Wee Jas so that is something you need to consider, its one or the other.


Yea I just saw the whole god issue between the two lol, in that case ill go at least 3 into ordained champ, and than ill look into another prestige.

Also to answer the other poster above I have near every book for 3.5 between me and my group, such as complete divine as you suggested.

Def gonna want to find a good secondary prestige for the battle cleric.

[GilesTheCleric]

If you're playing in a Spelljammer/ Planescape game, this is the full list of Hextor's available domains: Competition, Destruction, Domination, Evil, Law, Tyranny, War. Law is the only bad domain of those. You can use any flail as a favoured weapon.

HP is important, but there's many spells that will let you halve your damage (Corpsebond, Substitution, Empyreal Ecstasy, Starmantle, Sublime Revelry, Imbue with Spell Ability [Shield Other], and probably others). Furthermore, you can apply some HoTs and temp HP to yourself (Vigor) before combat, allowing you to effectively have much more HP than you actually do. Trading off between the standard Cleric's HD and Cloistered's Knowledge Devotion is a tricky balance; regular Cleric is probably best at lower levels, while Cloistered allows you to dump more into PA at higher levels. Which is better depends on how long you'll be playing at each set of levels.

Ruby Knight Vindicator is from ToB, and yes, it's pretty legit.

CW 146, PHB 32, 107, 146, DaD 58, 75, CD 109, 113, LGD 74, LGG 172We've collectively learned a lot about optimisation in the 8 years since that guide was published, and the views of the author don't always compensate for what happens at actual tables. There's a lot of good advice there, but you should still think critically about your choices.

[Troacctid]

Dumb question than, I get how divine power makes the BAB issue irrelevant, but what about the hp issues? If in gonna be a front liner, Wont I miss the higher hp?
It's only like 5 HP. Have a decent Con score and you'll be fine.


Also I'm definatly gonna max that champion prestige, saw another prestige that I may aim for after that. I got the book for ruby knight indicator....or I think thats what its called. internet is terrible here so my searching power Is horrendous.

How is said ruby knight prestige after champion?
Powerful, but, unfortunately, incompatible—it requires you to worship Wee Jas.

Some decent options for an evil cleric might include Earth Dreamer, Thaumaturgist, Paragnostic Apostle, Nightcloak, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, Tainted Sorcerer...


I've never played a battle cleric per se, but in general any full casting PrC with a decent HD is better than straight Cleric. BAB isn't important because of divine power. I'm not a big fan of Ordained Champion because of the reduced caster level, but if you only go 3 levels (so you only lose 1 CL) it might be good. If you have Complete Divine, I'd suggest looking at Divine Oracle, Church Inquisitor, and Contemplative (obligatory dip at 10 for an extra domain at the very least). A dip into Prestige Paladin from UA can be nice if you have decent Cha.
You would NEVER stop at only 3 levels of Ordained Champion. The 4th level ability is the whole reason why you're in the class in the first place! It is insanely strong.

[stanprollyright]

You would NEVER stop at only 3 levels of Ordained Champion. The 4th level ability is the whole reason why you're in the class in the first place! It is insanely strong.

Whoops, didn't look at the abilities. I assume you're talking about Rapid Spontaneous Casting, aka free quicken on War domain spells, which does seem rather strong.

[Rebel7284]

Law is the only bad domain of those

Law domain can be traded in for Law Devotion feat which IS pretty good. Also, in case of Ordained Champion, all the domains you don't care about can be turned into Fighter Bonus Feats anyway.

Ruby Knight Vindicators make amazing battle clerics. (Divine Impetus should probably be houseruled to free action usable 1/turn as it doesn't make sense otherwise.)
But with Maneuvers stapled onto cleric casting and a way to abuse action economy, it's one of the best tanks in the game.

The most powerful thing you can do, however, is make sure you don't lose caster levels. Persisting higher level spells will for the most part make you better in combat than the class features you'd be getting otherwise.

Specific build stubs:

Cloistered Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 1/X 1/Contemplative 1

With that second build, you can be an Azurin Cleric or Rebuke Dragons cleric to get two Turn Undead pools, thus persisting twice as many spells, including all the Paladin Spells you may need.

[darkcrab34]

Law domain can be traded in for Law Devotion feat which IS pretty good. Also, in case of Ordained Champion, all the domains you don't care about can be turned into Fighter Bonus Feats anyway.

Ruby Knight Vindicators make amazing battle clerics. (Divine Impetus should probably be houseruled to free action usable 1/turn as it doesn't make sense otherwise.)
But with Maneuvers stapled onto cleric casting and a way to abuse action economy, it's one of the best tanks in the game.

The most powerful thing you can do, however, is make sure you don't lose caster levels. Persisting higher level spells will for the most part make you better in combat than the class features you'd be getting otherwise.

Specific build stubs:

Cloistered Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 1/X 1/Contemplative 1

With that second build, you can be an Azurin Cleric or Rebuke Dragons cleric to get two Turn Undead pools, thus persisting twice as many spells, including all the Paladin Spells you may need.


Hmm thanks for the ideas, and while I enjoy the idea of the ruby knight, can't say for sure how my dm would enjoy action econ abuse stuff. Geck he's had enough bad experiences with celerity and that one maneuver from the book of nine swords.

Assuming I still decide to stick with ordained champ as it still looks really solid, what kinda dips would you go for?
Thanks again everyone for the help.

[Troacctid]

You don't really want to be dipping noncasting classes at all. Just advance your casting.

[darkcrab34]

You don't really want to be dipping noncasting classes at all. Just advance your casting.

Yea when I get home from work, gonna look into some other prestiges listed here.

The court inquis, the divination one etc. Though that 1 level into contemporary for 1 new domain sounds nice. Travel domain or strength domain sound good for a battle cleric.