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Bartmanhomer
2016-12-14, 09:22 PM
Hey everybody. I've a question to all the Dungeon Masters or DMs out there? What does it like to be a Dungeon Master? Because I'm thinking of becoming a Dungeon Master someday.

Koo Rehtorb
2016-12-14, 09:40 PM
Icicles on the spine of a skeleton on the subway at midnight.

Bartmanhomer
2016-12-14, 09:43 PM
Icicles on the spine of a skeleton on the subway at midnight.

Oh I get it. It's a joke. :smile:

Beans
2016-12-14, 10:02 PM
It depends, I think, on
1. What system you are playing
2. The people you play with
3. Your experience with DMing in general and the particular system and style of game
4. What kind of game you're playing within the system
5. some other things probably

But in my experience (with my homebrew Kamen Rider nonsense), I've found that being a DM can be both very fun and very taxing. You get to set up challenges and battles for your players to face, and you get to watch them try to deal with what you lay out before them. However, there is (and, to a degree, should be) a pressure on you to actually provide a fun game for your players to work with, and it can be a lot of work figuring out what style of play is good for you and your players and then going about it. If you're not running published modules (whether because you choose not to or your system lacks them or whatever), you generally have make everything up on your own, draw maps, etc. That can be challenging and tedious, but it can also be really fun and a learning experience.

So to sort of wrap up my long, silly ramble---DMing depends on how much you put into it, but when it's good it can be fantastic.

RazorChain
2016-12-14, 10:10 PM
Wow? Difficult question.

But mostly it feels good, especially if you've mastered your craft. For me it comes effortlessly, I've been GMing for 27 years so I could probably conjure up a pretty good game on the spot with nothing but a pencil and a die.

I think my biggest hurdle when I was young was to gain the understanding that it wasn't about me, my world, my npcs, my plot but about the players and their characters. Now a large part comes from my players enjoyment, their excitement, their thrill. It's a bit like having children and to be happy about their enjoyment.

I started with a new group almost a year ago, all of them unexperienced some playing their first game and it made me realize how jaded I'd become. Now I'm revitalized just be watching them discover what this hobby has to offer.

And there is also responsibility and hard work. If you are going to start Game Mastering then hone your craft, there is a lot to learn.

Stryyke
2016-12-15, 12:31 AM
This is my personal experience. Experiences vary. As such take this information as a data point, rather than the be-all-end-all.
In my opinion there are two types of DM'ing. There's the short campaign and one offs. Then there's long campaign.

For the short campaign and one-offs, the whole point is the player's enjoyment. There is little to no recruiting involved, so you end up with a wide array of people, with different experience levels. Many groups have a DM rotation for these types of games, so no one person get's burnt out being DM.

For the long campaign, I would argue that it is important that YOU, the DM, are working on something you really want to. There is a ton of work involved in an long campaign, and it's important that your morale stays high. In long campaigns, I have more stringent recruiting. So rather than focusing on balancing varied player attitudes and goals, you can find players whose personality mesh with yours and the setting.

But no matter what type of campaign, you have to be organized. Each player has to keep track of their own characters, and sometimes those characters can be taxing. The DM has to know about the PCs, all the NPCs, all the enemies, and try to keep the players on track. The DM MUST be comfortable being an authority. At any table, the DMs word is final, which comes with responsibilities. If you aren't the authority, players will run roughshod over you; and while they may think it's fun for a while, it ends up very bad for long term cohesion.

And the #1 rule of being a DM is flexibility. It's best if you can improvise around your players actions. Any DM will tell you that players have a knack for doing the one thing you hope they won't do, at the worst possible time. That lovely plan you spent 15 hours drawing up, goes out the window if the players turn right instead of left. You can look at it as a frustration, or a challenge.

The best DMs will read what I have written and be excited. Someone who will likely make a passable DM will read what I have written and accept it. You may not be suited to be a DM if you read what I wrote and think it's too much work.

I love bringing happiness to others, so DM'ing is really fun for me. It's so satisfying watching players reactions as they overcome a particularly difficult foe or obstacle. At the end of campaigns, I tend to feel bummed. Not that I don't like being a player, but I like DM'ing more. But like anything we do, it takes experience and lots of fail. If you are afraid to fail, you will struggle.

Freed
2016-12-15, 12:43 AM
If I have to describe it, you're being a mega-player with way too many PCs and each has an extremely fleshed out backstory.

OldTrees1
2016-12-15, 01:13 AM
On the one hand you are in control of the construction of the world. As such you feel a sense of power and excitement at the chance to show off your creativity, skill, & knowledge but also feel slightly tired from the standard you are holding yourself to.

On the other hand you are watching other players play D&D. Sure running D&D is a kind of play, but it is not the same kind of play as running a PC.


In other words: You feel a mix of "the grass is always greener on the other side" and "the grass here is green enough".

Incanur
2016-12-15, 01:18 AM
Running a game resembles teaching. :smallamused: You put in a tons of prep time; students/players put in little or none. You develop awesome material that they only distantly comprehend or appreciate. Sometimes they don't even show up. Sometimes they forget the basics. Often they enjoy the ride, but rarely in the way you hope or expect.

KatteLars
2016-12-15, 02:24 AM
Beans, Stryyke and Razorchain described my experience pretty well, I'll just add that it helps to find out your limits/ambitions in DM'ing. I'm not a huge fan of doing oneshots, but I've had to realize that my campaigns can't last for longer than a year (in real time, supposing one day of play every week). Longer than that, and I burn out. So I've gotta plan my campaigns accordingly :)

Cozzer
2016-12-15, 04:24 AM
A bit like being a writer, a bit like being an actor, a bit like being a diplomat and, if your system of choice is complex enough, a bit like being a mathematician or statistician. Ratios may vary depending on your style. :P

Oh, and the "being a writer" part refers to the kind of writer who has to put out a chapter weekly even if he has no good ideas and no time to come up with some, and who sometimes discovers he ****ed himself up with a piece of canon he estabilished a year ago without really thinking about it and now cannot just un-canon it.

hifidelity2
2016-12-15, 04:49 AM
Wow? Difficult question.

But mostly it feels good especially if you've mastered your craft. For me it comes effortlessly, I've been GMing for 27 years so I could probably conjure up a pretty good game on the spot with nothing but a pencil and a die.

And there is also responsibility and hard work. If you are going to start Game Mastering then hone your craft, there is a lot to learn.

I agree / in the same position – been playing for over 30 years and DMing on / off for most of that period

It has been rewarding, fun and at times tear you hair out frustrating


Start small – use a published adventure.
Start at low level.
If the players are experienced then tell them this is the 1st time and that you are doing a published adventure
Know the rules! – this does not mean every variant but the basics
If you make a mistake (e.g. forget to add the Monsters +’s tell the players and agree what you will do going forward – e.g. “from the next encounter I will be adding their +56 to hit” so they might be slightly harder to fight than you think)





Wow? Difficult question.

I think my biggest hurdle when I was young was to gain the understanding that it wasn't about me, my world, my npcs, my plot but about the players and their characters. Now a large part comes from my players enjoyment, their excitement, their thrill. It's a bit like having children and to be happy about their enjoyment.





I agree totally – both you and the players are there to have fun.
YOU are not writing a story (like a book) as the players will do the unexpected – It’s the TABLE (i.e. all of you) that are writing the story

You also can’t be too precious over your world / characters / major NPC’s

Ninja_Prawn
2016-12-15, 04:50 AM
A bit like being a writer, a bit like being an actor, a bit like being a diplomat and, if your system of choice is complex enough, a bit like being a mathematician or statistician. Ratios may vary depending on your style. :P

Oh, and the "being a writer" part refers to the kind of writer who has to put out a chapter weekly even if he has no good ideas and no time to come up with some, and who sometimes discovers he ****ed himself up with a piece of canon he estabilished a year ago without really thinking about it and now cannot just un-canon it.

Pretty much this. DMing is hard: you're the director, script-writer, actor (with dozens of simultaneous roles) and the grip... you have to be able to plan and improvise. It takes vision, leadership, communication and dedication to be a great DM. And sometimes there's maths.

For Bartmanhomer in particular, I want to highlight one aspect: you need to be able to read people. The heart of DMing is providing a fun game for the players, which means you need to be paying attention to them, picking up their signals and understanding what they do and don't enjoy. Because they won't tell you - half of them probably don't even know what they want in the first place. Empathy, insight and intuition are valuable attributes for a DM so if you struggle with those things, it might be more difficult for you.

evangaline
2016-12-15, 06:43 AM
For Bartmanhomer in particular, I want to highlight one aspect: you need to be able to read people. The heart of DMing is providing a fun game for the players, which means you need to be paying attention to them, picking up their signals and understanding what they do and don't enjoy. Because they won't tell you - half of them probably don't even know what they want in the first place. Empathy, insight and intuition are valuable attributes for a DM so if you struggle with those things, it might be more difficult for you.

Agreed. For example, learning how to read someones body language will significantly help/improve your DM-ing. There are a lot of free sites, tutorials and other media available on the internet which can teach it.

Kelb_Panthera
2016-12-15, 06:45 AM
Sometimes it feels like you're the director of a brilliant movie.

Sometimes it feesl like you're the captain of your winning sport team.

Sometimes it feels like you're herding cats that are herding squirrels.


When things go well, it fills you with a satsifaction that few other things do.

When it goes poorly, you want to strangle your friends with their own guts.


What can I say, it's hard to put into words.

hymer
2016-12-15, 07:03 AM
Hey everybody. I've a question to all the Dungeon Masters or DMs out there? What does it like to be a Dungeon Master? Because I'm thinking of becoming a Dungeon Master someday.

It feels like a horde of ungrateful simpletons are constantly either roaring their disapproval at you or showering you with indifference, while you spend every last ounce of energy, time and creativity you have trying to please them - unless you stop DMing, in which case they whine at the lack of games and shun you socially while talking about you behind your back.

Ask me again in summer, I may feel better then. :smallamused:

RazorChain
2016-12-15, 07:11 AM
It feels like a horde of ungrateful simpletons are constantly either roaring their disapproval at you or showering you with indifference, while you spend every last ounce of energy, time and creativity you have trying to please them - unless you stop DMing, in which case they whine at the lack of games and shun you socially while talking about you behind your back.

Ask me again in summer, I may feel better then. :smallamused:

Good to get both sides of the story :smallbiggrin: And yes hymer is right, there will be idiots, problem players and narcissists. Your job is to either reform them or boot them out of your game if they are ruining the fun for everyone.

Darth Ultron
2016-12-15, 08:23 AM
Feels kind of like being an all powerful god

Stealth Marmot
2016-12-15, 08:31 AM
It's like being the driver on a cross country road trip and being the only one that knows that you are so very lost, but you don't want the passengers to know so you can't ask directions.

Lacco
2016-12-15, 09:11 AM
In my opinion... best summary of "What Does It Feel Like To Be a Game Master" is the Ode to the Three Ring Binder by Blackjack...

:smallbiggrin:

And it can be a thankless job - but if you get players who understand what it is to be a GM/DM, you usually get lots of thanks, praises and sometimes even free pizza... :smallsmile:

ellindsey
2016-12-15, 11:16 AM
Feels kind of like being an all powerful god

If that's what it feel like, you are doing it wrong. Very, very wrong.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-15, 11:35 AM
It's often somewhat like having memorized a scene from The Tempest to act out, only to accidentally end up at Improv Night, and you end up having to do a Brooklyn accent and pretend that it's set in the Hall of Justice.

It can be a bit like spinning a bunch of plates that get frustrated instead of breaking. And sometimes they hate each other.

Sometimes you feel like Hannibal, applauding the moment when a plan comes together.

Sometimes it's like trying to smash down a brick wall.

Sometimes it's like trying to nail Jell-O to a tree.

Sometimes it's like that exhilarating roller-coaster feeling.

It varies, is what I'm saying. :smalltongue:

Cozzer
2016-12-15, 12:02 PM
Oh, also like being the editor of four-to-six writers who are all writing the same story without consulting each other about where it should go. And it's your job to create something coherent and engaging from the material they produce, without making any of them feel like their input is being ignored.

Pugwampy
2016-12-15, 02:12 PM
Its a labour of love and a thankless task . Yes its fun but probably not as much fun as being a player .

If everything goes off without a hitch , you can get real buzz from players interacting with your world and your creations but it can also be a knife that cuts your soul . You must be careful about investing too much emotions into NPC,s or having favorite pet monsters .

Never forget your monsters are there to get killed by players who will loot them of their magic goodies and become stronger and stronger and you must adapt .

You must learn to let go of things . You must try to say yes to any funny thing they can think up or if possible negotiate it down .

I think the most successful clubs are those that have all players rotating as DM,s every so often , if only make everyone understand how much work and commitment goes into making a cool session .

Its not rocket science being a DM . You have more then one Character or monster and make a funny story for the players . Perhaps you make a better combat scene than the story or perhaps you like making the story better then any fight . Its your preference . DM styles are unlimited .

Delicious Taffy
2016-12-15, 02:55 PM
From my own experience, I can only describe it as taxing.

Bartmanhomer
2016-12-15, 03:54 PM
From my own experience, I can only describe it as taxing.

So it's not as fun, I assume?

CharonsHelper
2016-12-15, 03:58 PM
So it's not as fun, I assume?

It's just as fun as playing, but it is more work. Depending upon your personality, the prep can be nearly as fun as playing.

I'd also say that it's a very satisfying feeling to GM a smoothly run campaign.

Cozzer
2016-12-15, 04:42 PM
So it's not as fun, I assume?

It... depends. When it's fun, it's way more fun. When it's unfun, it's way more unfun. It's more swingy.

If a session goes badly and you're a player, you just suffer through a bit of boredom and go home. If you're the GM, you've just wasted your preparation and your ego suffered HP damage.

If a session goes perfectly and you're a player, you have a lot of fun. If you're the GM and see all the players having a lot of fun, you feel like the best person ever.

CharonsHelper
2016-12-15, 04:43 PM
you feel like the best person ever.

I always feel like the best person ever. Whenever anyone else does, they're deluding themselves. *nods convincingly*

ComradeBear
2016-12-15, 04:55 PM
I liken it to being the mental version of running a really fun marathon with your friends.

You prepare beforehand, you get out there and do it, great things happen and lots of smiles are had, it's great and wonderful and then it's over.
And you're exhausted, with no idea how that happened.

I love GMing. My general recommendation for people who want to be GMs Someday is to take the Someday off and just start doing it.

Darth Ultron
2016-12-15, 05:04 PM
If that's what it feel like, you are doing it wrong. Very, very wrong.

Eh, your wrong is my kind of right.


Oh, also like being the editor of four-to-six writers who are all writing the same story without consulting each other about where it should go. And it's your job to create something coherent and engaging from the material they produce, without making any of them feel like their input is being ignored.

Maybe like being the only adult at a party full of kids. Or like being the creator/writer/director/executive producer with some bratty actors in a play/movie.

CharonsHelper
2016-12-15, 05:42 PM
Maybe like being the only adult at a party full of kids. Or like being the creator/writer/director/executive producer with some bratty actors in a play/movie.

I think that might be more true for you. From your other posts, your table has way more drama than any table I've ever been at. (I had one player walk away in a hissy fit at a PFS convention table once for no reason I could tell - but the rest of the table was cool.)

But - tables vary. Take all anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt.

braveheart
2016-12-15, 05:43 PM
The most important aspect of being a GM is to be able to enjoy the happiness of others, while it is fun to run a flawless session, your on the losing side, and you made the side to lose, all the conflict you put before your players is going to be overcome and if you don't enjoy watching your players revel in victory it can be depressing.

Incanur
2016-12-15, 07:34 PM
So it's not as fun, I assume?

I prefer running a game to playing a PC. (To be fair, I have less experience with the latter.) I enjoy worldbuilding, crafting stories, and contemplating implications, so GMing has pleasures that go beyond the sessions themselves.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-12-15, 07:35 PM
Depending upon your personality, the prep can be nearly as fun as playing.

This is a good point. Prep work before the campaign - or even theoretic prep for a non-existent campaign - can be a lot of fun.

Sometimes all I want to do is roll on random tables all day and see where it takes me.

Baelon
2016-12-15, 11:25 PM
It... depends. When it's fun, it's way more fun. When it's unfun, it's way more unfun. It's more swingy.

If a session goes badly and you're a player, you just suffer through a bit of boredom and go home. If you're the GM, you've just wasted your preparation and your ego suffered HP damage.

If a session goes perfectly and you're a player, you have a lot of fun. If you're the GM and see all the players having a lot of fun, you feel like the best person ever.

This would be exactly my answer. There have been sessions I've walked away from feeling like I'd just wasted copious amounts of time and energy. And there've been sessions that I left feeling like I'd just won an Oscar. It can be the greatest experience the medium can offer and it can be the worst. Usually it falls somewhere in the middle.

Usually, you screw things up. Most of the time, things will go wrong. You'll have a few notes you want to hit and you'll miss some of them. You might hit the others, but you'll always regret the ones you didn't hit. Even if the players don't notice, you will. If the hits outnumber the misses and the players had a good time, maybe you'll convince yourself it was a win. If the misses outnumber the hits and the players were bored, maybe it was a loss. If you missed more than you hit, but they still liked it...you'll just be glad it's over.

It's performance art. And like any art, the goal is to evoke emotion in the audience. When you get the desired emotion, it feels incredible. When you don't, it feels terrible. But the successes make all the failures worth it.

I'd never discourage anyone from DMing. If you want to try it, go for it.

Knaight
2016-12-15, 11:53 PM
It's just as fun as playing, but it is more work. Depending upon your personality, the prep can be nearly as fun as playing.
It also depends on the prep. Long term prep bores the heck out of me and I broadly avoid it, short term setting building for small pieces is a lot of fun for me. As for it being as fun as playing - again this is personality dependant. I find it way more fun personally. Having just one character is so limiting, and there's something deeply enjoyable about being the one with all the secret knowledge, doing the creative work that only you can do with all that knowledge in real time in response to the players, and watching the game unfold.

BWR
2016-12-16, 05:07 AM
It is often a lot of work, though the exact amount depends on the sort of system you use and game you run. You hear stories of people who put in hours of prep time for each session and those who basically show up and wing it, and both of these seem to have about the same success rate.
The feeling you get when you see the players enjoy themselves, when they are fired up, when they are really involved the the RP and the plot, and when they years later fondly reminisce about games you ran: it's an amazing feeling.
The feeling you get when you see bored and listless faces, when the players don't care what happens, when you screw up to the PCs' and players' detriment, when you get feedback that the session or entire game you ran wasn't that good or even rather terrible: that's a horrible feeling.

Phoenixguard09
2016-12-16, 05:43 AM
If you're a certain kind of person, it is amazingly fulfilling, especially if you have a good group of players.

For me personally, I love watching my players interact with the world I have created, or watching them succeed in trying circumstances.

My key thing to keep in mind is that I want my players to succeed, if not at the task at hand, at least in telling a kick-ass story. If I can't get that thought in my head I am in for a bad session.

It feels great. It can be really frustrating, even disappointing at times, but the more you and your group work towards everyone's fun, the better it feels.

Communication is key again.

Lorsa
2016-12-16, 05:44 AM
I can describe my feelings about DMing in very simple terms.

It is the most awesome thing in the world and if I could be paid to do it my life would be complete.

Jay R
2016-12-16, 09:25 AM
So it's not as fun, I assume?

It's very different kind of fun. Being a player is play-fun. Being a DM is fulfillment-fun, like writing a story, building a model, judging disputes, refereeing a football game, and helping my friends, all at once.

Surprisingly, it is not immersive at all. I'm not in a fantasy world, like I try to be when I'm playing. Instead, I am deeply involved in the minutia of the rules, so (as far as possible) my players don't have to be.

At its best, my mind is fully absorbed for hours during the game, after spending lots of time off and on planning during the week before. [The planning is far more immersive than the game itself. That's when I can get into the feel of the fantasy world.]

Telonius
2016-12-16, 10:09 AM
For me, it's really close to the feeling I got when I was a stage manager back in high school and college. Lots of work behind the scenes, and most of the time nobody realizes that unless you've screwed up royally. But you get the satisfaction of setting up the whole thing for the actors/PCs to have an awesome time, and seeing something you had a big hand in planning come to reality right in front of you.

PhoenixPhyre
2016-12-16, 11:17 AM
I've found I strongly prefer being a DM to being a player. For me the story (evolving as it is) is the thing--playing in someone else's world means I keep hitting walls I didn't know were there.

Big piece of advice: Make sure you keep your groups small. The energy drain is exponential (at least with D&D) when the groups get above about 5. 6 is stressful, 7 is draining, 8 is bad, 9 is awful. How do I know this? I DM for two school groups as well as an adult group. The adult group is 4 people, and it's great. The kids groups are both about 7-8 and it's like herding cats. Doesn't help that I only have 35 minutes a week with one group and about 75 minutes with the other, compared to 4 hours a week with the adults.

Don't get me wrong, I love doing it. But it can be draining.

killem2
2016-12-16, 12:21 PM
TLDR? I feel like the banker in a game of real life monopoly.


It's a totally thankless job. It is the crux of the game and with out it, you have nothing. If you choose to run your own module. Home grown, thought up only from your own cortex then you have to be prepared for anything including the heart break and frustration of having your creation be made invalid. You might spend hours on creating NPCs and monsters to challenge the players only to have them use the one solution you didn't think of to beat them.

You have to have the fortitude to deal with defeat on a constant basis. You have to have the patience to wait on players as the decide what to do and wait around doing nothing as they run the show.

You have to be the person who is the babysitter of eternity. You have to be able to keep a group of real people in line, so they can focus on the game at hand. You also have to deal with an exponential amount of attitudes at your table for each player there is. Because each player might act one way, and their characters act another way.

Susie may not like what you did to her character Wren, and resent you (as a person) for it, and then Wren, will act a specific way based on that as well.

Being a Dungeon Master means being able to be damn near selfless for the greater good of the play group. If you happen to be the dungeon master and the host of where this session is, you also have to keep in mind the comfort levels of each real person i your group. Their dynamics what makes them tick. If you have a really shy person who just likes to roll dice, you have to work to keep them engaged just as much as looney-toon bard-extreme who sings real limericks to the group.

You also have to know your **** when it comes to rules. If you are single arbiter of the rules, you can't be wishy washy about it. If you don't know, you have to be able to admit you don't know and look up the rules. Some DMs will in place of finding RAW will hand waive **** and that's a dangerous thing to get involved with especially if you are new dm and the players are new to table top RPGs.

If you use a pre made adventure, you experience less of these head aches but they come with their own. Pre made adventures depend on the writer of the adventure knowing how to make a great story. If it is, you will notice right away. Your players will notice. If it isn't, you'll feel like something is missing or you may have left something out.

As a new DM you will have a lot of people shilling their own opinions on you. You do you. You will feel like there is only one way to DM and it's just not true. You will have people on these forums and others telling you, you have to use the tier system, you can't play your own PC and be the DM. What you have to remember is, there is no wrong or right way to do these games, only right and wrong ways to conduct your self morally.

You will feel like a piece of **** the first time you kill a long time character of a player. You might not feel anything. What matters is you know how to handle the situation.

So what does it feel like to be a DM, it feels like a bearer of unbelievable responsibility so you can allow 3-6 other people to have a fantastic gaming session. Do not become a DM if you can't be ok with the fact, you may never play as a player. Because after all, there has to be a DM/GM.

Joe the Rat
2016-12-16, 02:19 PM
Pretty much this. DMing is hard: you're the director, script-writer, actor (with dozens of simultaneous roles) and the grip... you have to be able to plan and improvise. It takes vision, leadership, communication and dedication to be a great DM. And sometimes there's maths.

For Bartmanhomer in particular, I want to highlight one aspect: you need to be able to read people. The heart of DMing is providing a fun game for the players, which means you need to be paying attention to them, picking up their signals and understanding what they do and don't enjoy. Because they won't tell you - half of them probably don't even know what they want in the first place. Empathy, insight and intuition are valuable attributes for a DM so if you struggle with those things, it might be more difficult for you.


Sometimes it feels like you're the director of a brilliant movie.

Sometimes it feesl like you're the captain of your winning sport team.

Sometimes it feels like you're herding cats that are herding squirrels.


When things go well, it fills you with a satsifaction that few other things do.

When it goes poorly, you want to strangle your friends with their own guts.


What can I say, it's hard to put into words.
Sums up my main thoughts, but


I always feel like the best person ever. Whenever anyone else does, they're deluding themselves. *nods convincingly*
...is what you tell yourself in the end.

It's a bit of homework. Even if you are using prefabs, you still need to know what the pieces are, how they work, and have an idea of how to use those bits and pieces when the party does something totally unexpected. But the first time they take the bait and put things in motion - moving events, setting off crisis, or simply activating your trap card - that is an amazing feeling.

So yeah, it's a lot like teaching.

It's a bit like being a supervillain as well. Your game is the plot that unfolds, and the party is the team of heroes trying to stop your crazy scheme. But you are a cliche supervillain. You send minions (monstes & NPCs), and put them in surprisingly escapable death traps (dungeons/adventures) and see how they work themselves out. But here's the strange part. You want them to win. You want to see them get out of things, and see how they mess up the next part of your scheme, particularly because it means a different part of your byzantine (never actually call it "half-assed") scheme comes into play.

So it's a lot like being Thanos teaching kindergarten, only with more food stains.

Comet
2016-12-16, 02:31 PM
Y'all have some pretty bad players :smalltongue:

Ninja_Prawn
2016-12-16, 02:45 PM
Y'all have some pretty bad players :smalltongue:

This is probably a case of people tending to complain when things are bad, but not say anything when they're good. So I'll provide some counterbalance: my players are great, and I love them all. :smallsmile:

Pugwampy
2016-12-16, 04:35 PM
Do not become a DM if you can't be ok with the fact, you may never play as a player. Because after all, there has to be a DM/GM.

Thats a bit harsh . Even the DM needs a vacation .

killem2
2016-12-16, 05:10 PM
Thats a bit harsh . Even the DM needs a vacation .

Sure, you can always break from playing. But when you come back, if no one wants to DM or you can't find anyone. You have a choice to make. :smallsigh:

Thankfully, I have someone now who swaps with me. But it wasn't always like that.

Knaight
2016-12-16, 07:05 PM
It's very different kind of fun. Being a player is play-fun. Being a DM is fulfillment-fun, like writing a story, building a model, judging disputes, refereeing a football game, and helping my friends, all at once.

Surprisingly, it is not immersive at all. I'm not in a fantasy world, like I try to be when I'm playing. Instead, I am deeply involved in the minutia of the rules, so (as far as possible) my players don't have to be.
I'd break fulfillment-fun down into two categories, both of which are much nearer the fulfillment side of the play-fulfillment spectrum than the sort of fun being a player is. The first is creative-fun, which fits your writing a story and building a model examples. This also includes the applied research end, where you're learning new things, adapting them, and then building parts of a game with it, from making interesting NPCs, setting cultures, even maps to developing mechanics. The second is perfomance-fun, which occurs during the part of running a game where you are directly doing things. There's the enjoyment of portraying a character and getting real responses to it, there's the enjoyment of running your side of a conflict in general and making interesting gameplay in real time, etc. Then to make all of this better you're using your creativity and performing for people you like and care about.

I GM probably 98% of the time (spent playing RPGs), and play the remaining 2%, and that's a ratio I'm pretty happy with. Being a GM is just much more enjoyable.


TLDR? I feel like the banker in a game of real life monopoly.

It's a totally thankless job. It is the crux of the game and with out it, you have nothing. If you choose to run your own module. Home grown, thought up only from your own cortex then you have to be prepared for anything including the heart break and frustration of having your creation be made invalid. You might spend hours on creating NPCs and monsters to challenge the players only to have them use the one solution you didn't think of to beat them.

You have to have the fortitude to deal with defeat on a constant basis. You have to have the patience to wait on players as the decide what to do and wait around doing nothing as they run the show.

You have to be the person who is the babysitter of eternity. You have to be able to keep a group of real people in line, so they can focus on the game at hand. You also have to deal with an exponential amount of attitudes at your table for each player there is. Because each player might act one way, and their characters act another way.
I'm really sorry that you're the DM of your group, because this sounds miserable - and while some of it is system side (there's a reason I avoid D&D), and some of it is less than ideal group dynamics, a lot of it is that the very things that a lot of us get enjoyment from are what's sapping your fun. I've found it not to be thankless, with people generally appreciating the GMing done. The players interacting with my material in ways I didn't expect is what I enjoy most, and certainly involves no heart break or frustration. I'm not even sure where you're getting the bit about the fortitude to deal with defeat on a constant basis - yes, my NPCs tend to lose the fights they're in against the PCs, but that's not me dealing with defeat that's me successfully building an interesting fight scene as part of the performance-fun I was talking about above.

As for the babysitting and dealing with attitude, that's a group dynamic thing. In decent groups I've basically never had to do anything more than help keep focus, which is a non issue.


You also have to know your **** when it comes to rules. If you are single arbiter of the rules, you can't be wishy washy about it. If you don't know, you have to be able to admit you don't know and look up the rules. Some DMs will in place of finding RAW will hand waive **** and that's a dangerous thing to get involved with especially if you are new dm and the players are new to table top RPGs.

...

As a new DM you will have a lot of people shilling their own opinions on you. You do you. You will feel like there is only one way to DM and it's just not true. You will have people on these forums and others telling you, you have to use the tier system, you can't play your own PC and be the DM. What you have to remember is, there is no wrong or right way to do these games, only right and wrong ways to conduct your self morally.
Knowing the rules helps, and this is part of the reason I tend to favor rules light games. With that said, there are plenty of groups where hand waving is totally fine, so a rules focused approach where you have to know all the rules is not the one true way to GM. As for "you do you", absolutely. People offer the advice that works for them, and it is worth listening to. At the end of the day though everyone's GMing is going to have a distinct style, much the way that writing or speech patterns do. Trying to exactly mimic an existing style that works really well might help you grow as a GM, but that's not something worth targeting as an actual goal. Target being the best your-style-GM you can be instead.

RazorChain
2016-12-16, 10:53 PM
TLDR? I feel like the banker in a game of real life monopoly.


It's a totally thankless job. It is the crux of the game and with out it, you have nothing. If you choose to run your own module. Home grown, thought up only from your own cortex then you have to be prepared for anything including the heart break and frustration of having your creation be made invalid. You might spend hours on creating NPCs and monsters to challenge the players only to have them use the one solution you didn't think of to beat them.

When you introduce the PC's to the your world, it's no longer yours alone, it belongs to the players as well. It's like most media when subjected to audience, then the artist/maker can't call it his own anymore.

At the end of each session I ask my players if they had fun, what they thought about the session and try to get some feedback. This way you learn to know your players better and get better at GMing. When the players tell you that they look forward to next session, show enthusiasm and interest, that's their thank you. If you are not having fun being a GM then you shouldn't. GMing like playing is a reward in itself.



You have to have the fortitude to deal with defeat on a constant basis. You have to have the patience to wait on players as the decide what to do and wait around doing nothing as they run the show.

This is a very antagonistic view of the game, a me vs. them mentality. You are cheering for the wrong team. One of the things about Gming I like is that I'm always in the center of attention, there isn't really a down time until I wait for my turn. The GM is the person who gets the most attention and has the most time in the limelight!




You have to be the person who is the babysitter of eternity. You have to be able to keep a group of real people in line, so they can focus on the game at hand. You also have to deal with an exponential amount of attitudes at your table for each player there is. Because each player might act one way, and their characters act another way.

Susie may not like what you did to her character Wren, and resent you (as a person) for it, and then Wren, will act a specific way based on that as well.

This sounds like the maturity level of a kindergarten. But players acting one way and characters acting another way sounds like roleplaying to me. I have a hard time to relate, sounds like my gaming table when I was starting GMing as a 10 year old. Don't worry as your players reach adulthood then this will mostly take care of itself.




Being a Dungeon Master means being able to be damn near selfless for the greater good of the play group. If you happen to be the dungeon master and the host of where this session is, you also have to keep in mind the comfort levels of each real person i your group. Their dynamics what makes them tick. If you have a really shy person who just likes to roll dice, you have to work to keep them engaged just as much as looney-toon bard-extreme who sings real limericks to the group.

You don't have to be selfless, your investment should be in the PC's....not the NPC's that you have created. The game isn't about you, it's about them. If you take no joy from that then you are either going to be a bad GM or a depressed and unhappy one. You are an entertainer and just like singer isn't singing to enjoy his own voice but to entertain an audience. The singer might be doing this because he loves to sing and loves to entertain. And your job is to make the PC's shine and give them a spot in the limelight, make them feel special.



You also have to know your **** when it comes to rules. If you are single arbiter of the rules, you can't be wishy washy about it. If you don't know, you have to be able to admit you don't know and look up the rules. Some DMs will in place of finding RAW will hand waive **** and that's a dangerous thing to get involved with especially if you are new dm and the players are new to table top RPGs.

Knowing the rules is useful but hand waiving is just fine. My group just hand waives when we don't remember a rule to keep the game fast and flowing. After the session we might dig up the rule in question. Also there are system that are very rules light if people prefer that. Else you as a GM can often just make cheats sheets or make a personilized GM screen with the rules you need the most for easy reference.




As a new DM you will have a lot of people shilling their own opinions on you. You do you. You will feel like there is only one way to DM and it's just not true. You will have people on these forums and others telling you, you have to use the tier system, you can't play your own PC and be the DM. What you have to remember is, there is no wrong or right way to do these games, only right and wrong ways to conduct your self morally.

When I have played with an unexperience GM I am ready to cut him a lot of slack, and then I'm ready to discuss thing at the end of the session. Yes people have different opinions about GMing styles but people also have different preferences as players and sometimes those don't go hand in hand. All GM's will develope their own style, it's natural. But there is nothing wrong with gathering knowledge, advice and tips from others. As for DMPC's people will have different opinions but the large majority of players I've played with and discussed the matter with don't enjoy them. The only person who seems to enjoy the DMPC is the DM/GM.



So what does it feel like to be a DM, it feels like a bearer of unbelievable responsibility so you can allow 3-6 other people to have a fantastic gaming session. Do not become a DM if you can't be ok with the fact, you may never play as a player. Because after all, there has to be a DM/GM.

I think unbelievable is a rather strong word here....I would rather say the bearer of a minor responsibility. If you fail your responsibilty then the only consequences will be boredom for the gaming group, worse things have happended. The only reason I can see that a person will have a hard time getting in the player seat after being a GM is if he's a darn good one, the group will always vote for the best, but they also need a break to recharge their batteries.

RazorChain
2016-12-16, 11:00 PM
Feels kind of like being an all powerful god


Feels more to me like being an all loving, all knowing, all powerful benevolent deity. Because if you behave like an ****head then nobody but fools and imbeciles will worship you anymore.

Alberic Strein
2016-12-17, 03:01 AM
It's three parts community manager, one part writer, one part lawyer, one part comedian, and one part rallye co-pilot.

...And one part social worker. On your off days.

In other words it's fun, exhausting, demanding and sometimes require you to let go of people.

D+1
2016-12-17, 11:28 AM
Want to know what it feels like to be a DM? Run a game and you'll know. You'll know not only what it feels like but whether it's something you enjoy and/or want to continue to explore.

You'll need a few understanding players, but just jump in and go for it. Don't overplan or overthink anything. It is something best learned and best understood simply by DOING it.

wumpus
2016-12-18, 02:30 PM
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2223

Ok, yes it is a link to another comic (that doesn't even use stick figures). But I think it does sum it up (and moreso for oldschool DMs).

Wish
2016-12-18, 03:15 PM
A large part of it is who is it you are playing with.

Strangers?
New Friends?
Old Friends?


But lets disregard that for your original question. Even though it gets easier once you understand whats going on in your players heads, but fun to play with new people.

Being a DM, is interesting, you have to plan out, listen to suggestions and be able to react in the best possible way, be aware of resource management (time, encounters, story holes, rules, and math), assume that nobody is perfect (everyone has a flaw), know what your players consider fun.

Some DMs run different games with different styles. Just find what you are good at, know what you are bad at, and accept that the whole thing is a journey with a community of people and not just the table you are playing with at the time. :-)

2D8HP
2016-12-18, 04:32 PM
Watching people play D&D?
Fun!
:smile:

Worldbuilding?
Fun!
:smile:

Playacting NPC's?
Fun!
:smile:

Rules minutiae memorization and adjudication?
A colossal pain in the ... neck!
:annoyed:

All those shiny abilities and options that make it fun for a player, make it more of a hassle to DM.

It's easier to be the DM if your using stripped down rules like the 48 pages of the 1977 "blue book", but your players will miss their options.

One good part of being a DM is that you can make a game that you'd want to play:


When I started playing DnD the players weren't supposed to know all the rules:You are a DM aren't you? Because
As this book is the exclusive precinct of the DM, you must view any non-DM player possessing it as something less than worthy of honorable death.


The first version of what became D&D was the rules system inside Dave Arneson's mind.

The rules are there because players want some idea of what the odds are first, and it's easier to choose from a catalog than write on a blank page.

When D&D started there was no mention of role-playing on the box!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SfSTvUzCu4I/AAAAAAAAA9A/9bUyti9YmUk/s320/box1st.jpg
While the 1977 Basic set did indeed say "FANTASY ROLE-PLAYING GAME"
http://i2.wp.com/shaneplays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/dungeons_and_dragons_dd_basic_set_1stedition_origi nal_box_holmes_edition.jpg?zoom=4&resize=312%2C386
The phrase "role-playing" was not part of the 1974 rules.
http://i2.wp.com/shaneplays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/original_dungeons_and_dragons_dd_men_and_magic_cov er.jpg?zoom=4&resize=312%2C494
Notice that the cover says "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames", not role-playing!
I believe the first use of the term "role-playing game" was in a Tunnels & Trolls supplement that was "compatible with other Fantasy role-playing games", but early D&D didn't seem any more or less combat focused than the later RPG's I've played, (in fact considering how fragile PC''s were avoiding combat was often the goal!) so I wouldn't say it was anymore of a "Wargame". I would however say it was more an exploration game, and was less character focused.
Frankly while role-playing is alright, it's the 'enjoying a "world" where the fantastic is fact' part that is much more interesting to me.

These rules are strictly fantasy. Those wargamers who lack imagination, those who don't care for Burroughs'
Martian adventures where John Carter is groping through black pits, who feel no thrill upon reading Howard's Conan saga, who do not enjoy the de Camp & Pratt fantasies or Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
pitting their swords against evil sorceries will not be likely to find Dungeons & Dragons to their taste. But those whose imaginations know no bounds will find that these rules are the answer to their prayers. With this last
bit of advice we invite you to read on and enjoy a "world" where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!
E. Gary Gygax
Tactical Studies Rules Editor
1 November 1973
Lake Geneva, WisconsinWhile I'm ever grateful to Holmes for his work translating the game rules into English, perhaps he (an academic psychologist) is to be blamed for mis-labelling D&D with the abominable slander of "role-playing" (a psychological treatment technique).
It's too late now to correct the misnomer, but D&D is, was, and should be a fantasy adventure game, not role-playing, a label no good has come from!

“If I want to do that,” he said, “I’ll join an amateur theater group.” (see here (http://www.believermag.com/issues/200609/?read=article_lafarge)).
While Dave Arneson later had the innovation of having his players "roll up" characters, for his "homebrew" of Chainmail:
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2016/04/the-original-dungeon-masters/

At first the players played themselves in a Fantastic medievalish world:
http://swordsandstitchery.blogspot.com/2016/10/in-celebrate-of-dave-arnesons-birthday.html?m=1

So a wargame was made into a setting exploration game, and then was later labelled a "role-playing" game.
While it's still possible to play D&D as the wargame it once was, I'm glad that the game escaped the "wargame" appellation, which makes the game more attractive to those of us with 'less of an interest in tactics, however I argue (to beat a dead horse), that the labeling of D&D as a role-playing game is hurtful ("Your not role-playing, your roll-playing! etc.).
Just label D&D an adventure game, and people can be spared all the hand-wringing, and insults when acting and writing talents don't measure up to "role-playing" standards, and instead we can have fun exploring a fantastic world together.
Please?

Start with some basics, explain verbally that Dungeons & Dragons is a table-top adventure game in which you control the action attempts of adventurers exploring a fantastic world.

Tell them the DM describes a scene.

Players say what actions their PC attempts.

DM makes up a percentage chance of success.

Player rolls dice.

Then the DM narrates the results.

That's the game.

You will be the eyes and ears of the PC's.
Tell the players what their PC's perceive including what the PC's think the odds are. Ask them what the actions of the PC'S are like this:
"Fafhrd (use the PC's name, not the players name, this is to help immersion) you see the Witch King approach what do you do?".

Further explain that the PC's whose action attempts the players control have hit points, and when the PC's suffer damage, the PC's lose hit points. When the PC's have no hit points left, their PC's die. Stress this.
Then explain ability scores.
Start with Strength. Explain that most people have average Strength of 10, and that one in a thousand are so strong that they have a Strength of 18, and that one in a thousand are so weak that they have a Strength of 3.
Explain the other "abilities" likewise.

Next the PC's backgrounds.
Somehow (Worldbuild a reason by Crom!) the PC's speak the language of the region the adventure starts in, but they come from somewhere else, "a small village", "the forest", :the Hall of the Mountain King", together you can add details later.

What gods do the PC's worship?
None.
They worship a goddess who goes by many names:
Tyche, Fortuna, Dame Fortune, The "Lady" (luck). Her holy symbol is dice used as a necklace, and her worshippers hymn is "please, oh please, oh please! ".

Introduce the rest of the Pantheon in play, through what the PC's see and hear. Likewise the Geography.

What brings them to the adventure site?

Treasure!

I'd have to say that I would like to start the campaign In medias res, by the DM telling us something like:
“In the Year of the Behemoth, the Month of the Hedgehog, The Day of the Toad."

"Satisfied that they your near the goal of your quest, you think of how you had slit the interesting-looking vellum page from the ancient book on architecture that reposed in the library of the rapacious and overbearing Lord Rannarsh."

“It was a page of thick vellum, ancient and curiously greenish. Three edges were frayed and worn; the fourth showed a clean and recent cut. It was inscribed with the intricate hieroglyphs of Lankhmarian writing, done in the black ink of the squid. Reading":
"Let kings stack their treasure houses ceiling-high, and merchants burst their vaults with hoarded coin, and fools envy them. I have a treasure that outvalues theirs. A diamond as big as a man's skull. Twelve rubies each as big as the skull of a cat. Seventeen emeralds each as big as the skull of a mole. And certain rods of crystal and bars of orichalcum. Let Overlords swagger jewel-bedecked and queens load themselves with gems, and fools adore them. I have a treasure that will outlast theirs. A treasure house have I builded for it in the far southern forest, where the two hills hump double, like sleeping camels, a day's ride beyond the village of Soreev.

"A great treasure house with a high tower, fit for a king's dwelling—yet no king may dwell there. Immediately below the keystone of the chief dome my treasure lies hid, eternal as the glittering stars. It will outlast me and my name,"

100 years ago the sorcerer Zenopus built a tower on the low hills overlooking Portown. The tower was close to the sea cliffs west of the town and, appropriately, next door to the graveyard.
Rumor has it that the magician made extensive cellars and tunnels underneath the tower. The town is located on the ruins of a much older city of doubtful history and Zenopus was said to excavate in his cellars in search of ancient treasures.

Fifty years ago, on a cold wintry night, the wizard's tower was suddenly engulfed in green flame. Several of his human servants escaped the holocaust, saying their rnaster had been destroyed by some powerful force he had unleashed in the depths of the tower.
Needless to say the tower stood vacant fora while afterthis, but then the neighbors and the night watchmen comploined that ghostly blue lights appeared in the windows at night, that ghastly screams could be heard emanating from the tower ot all hours, and goblin figures could be seen dancina on the tower roof in the moonlight. Finally the authorities had a catapult rolled through the streets of the town and the tower was battered to rubble. This stopped the hauntings but the townsfolk continue to shun the ruins. The entrance to the old dungeons can be easily located as a flight of broad stone steps leading down into darkness, but the few adventurous souls who hove descended into crypts below the ruin have either reported only empty stone corridors or have failed to return at all.
Other magic-users have moved into the town but the site of the old tower remains abandoned.
Whispered tales are told of fabulous treasure and unspeakable monsters in the underground passages below the hilltop, and the story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of the older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.
Portown is a small but busy city 'linking the caravan routes from the south to the merchant ships that dare the pirate-infested waters of the Northern Sea. Humans and non-humans from all over the globe meet here.
At he Green Dragon Inn, the players of the game gather their characters for an assault on the fabulous passages beneath the ruined Wizard's tower.

:smile:



To avoid "railroading" don't drop the PC's into a situation that is lame with their having no choice in the matter
Instead, as in treasure seeking examples, the DM has dropped the PC's into a situation that is AWESOME! so of course the players would choose it.

Don't forget to have someone say:

"When do we get there?"
"Real soon!"

"Demon Dogs!"

"What is best in life?

"This goes to eleven".

"What about you centurion, do you think there's anything funny?"

"A shrubbery!"

:wink:

Your welcome.

I've also found that paradoxically the less prep work I've done, the more my players seemed to like it.

We need more DM's.

Good luck.

Cluedrew
2016-12-18, 07:15 PM
Well I am a new GM and have been met with limited success so far. Luckily I play with friends who let me make mistakes.

There is one other thing I would take a way from this thread. Make sure you show your Dungun Master/Game Master/Storyteller/Master of Ceremonies/... that's all I got, that you appreciate what they do.

D+1
2016-12-18, 07:35 PM
There is one other thing I would take a way from this thread. Make sure you show your Dungun Master/Game Master/Storyteller/Master of Ceremonies/... that's all I got, that you appreciate what they do.
Indeed. Players go to a D&D game anticipating that they will have fun. The DM shows up hoping that EVERYONE ELSE has fun. That deserves some appreciation - although the wise DM will never take the job EXPECTING to get it.

Cealocanth
2016-12-18, 08:00 PM
Mix all of these feelings together in a big pot, simmer on medium heat for an hour, and you get essence of GM.


The feeling of being a babysitter
The feeling of seeing your world come to life before you and watching others play in it
The feeling of sheer dominance over your pitiful foes
The feeling of desperately trying to please others
The feeling of exhaustion that comes from way too much necessary prep work.

Mystral
2016-12-19, 06:07 AM
Hey everybody. I've a question to all the Dungeon Masters or DMs out there? What does it like to be a Dungeon Master? Because I'm thinking of becoming a Dungeon Master someday.

https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/110/images/49427-3-1388631865.jpg

Joe the Rat
2016-12-19, 11:21 AM
The unnatural aging is only slightly exaggerated in that picture.

wumpus
2016-12-19, 11:55 AM
Watching people play D&D?
Fun!
:smile:

Worldbuilding?
Fun!
:smile:

Playacting NPC's?
Fun!
:smile:

Rules minutiae memorization and adjudication?
A colossal pain in the ... neck!
:annoyed:

I've also found that paradoxically the less prep work I've done, the more my players seemed to like it.

We need more DM's.

Good luck.

Oddly enough, the best game I ever played was Villains and Vigilantes. The only other comment I found on that game was somebody who thought it was the *worst* game he ever played. I think the difference was simple:

I didn't know the rules or look in the rule book (this was old school gaming at its best)
I know the GM barely knew the D&D rulebook, so I suspect he didn't bother with the rules too closely in this one either
I don't think the GM did much in the way of preparation, although this isn't true. The villains were carefully created and had strong backstories, but the situations I would encounter them were pretty much thought up on the spot.
The GM was seriously into comic books and had a wild imagination.

The adventure is what matters, the rules not so much. If your players show up with books, try pulling a heavily modded ruleset off the internet (tell the players you did, but not which one. Hopefully there won't be too many conflicts on you characters). Don't follow it too closely (it probably isn't well tested anyway).

Virfortis
2016-12-19, 12:26 PM
In my experience it is both a blessing and a curse.

It is a blessing because over time you will be able to adapt to situations quickly and be the best ad-libber of your friends.

It is a curse because a lack of DMs means that, unless otherwise noted, you will be expected to DM for the rest of your D&D life.

I have been playing for a year now. I've been a player exactly one month, all other 11 months was spent as a DM. I can't find anyone else to DM a game for me, and AL isn't roleplay friendly.

FabulousFizban
2016-12-19, 02:49 PM
Imagine trying to herd drunk ferrets through a flaming hoop

CharonsHelper
2016-12-19, 04:00 PM
The adventure is what matters, the rules not so much. If your players show up with books, try pulling a heavily modded ruleset off the internet (tell the players you did, but not which one. Hopefully there won't be too many conflicts on you characters). Don't follow it too closely (it probably isn't well tested anyway).

I'm glad that works for you.

That would annoy the **** out of me. I want to know the rules of any game before I play it. A lot of what I enjoy about RPGs is playing around with the rules & customizing them in different ways etc. I enjoy the adventure, but I enjoy playing within the system as well.

I don't think that I would be a good fit for your game. Which is fine. I just don't think that you should try to sell your gaming style as the only way to play.

Cozzer
2016-12-20, 10:01 AM
I agree. The rules state clearly what my character can and can't do when he interacts with the world. If the GM fudges the rules about Strength, for example, it means that the strength of my character will be exactly what the GM wants it to be in each situation.

Now, no ruleset is perfect and there are always edge cases where a bit of fudging is for the best, but I would argue that if you find yourself fudging the rules too often, maybe it means you're using the wrong set of rules. An in any case, I would argue that the players very definitely need to know what the rules are.

Pugwampy
2016-12-20, 12:21 PM
That would annoy the **** out of me. I want to know the rules of any game before I play it. A lot of what I enjoy about RPGs is playing around with the rules & customizing them in different ways etc. I enjoy the adventure, but I enjoy playing within the system as well.

Some vet players abuse rules to needlessly bully and take advantage of a new DM,s .

Its awesome to have a walking dnd dictionary provided they know when to be helpful with book knowledge and when to , to put it bluntly STFU and just accept a situation and have fun.

Rules are a set of guidelines and suggestions written by overworked and underpaid wage slaves and constantly evolving for better or worse . Every DM has their own set of little house rules and play style that has nothing to do with any book rules . Its DM,s job to analyze all rules and discard what he thinks is less fun or too much admin . Being DM means you can change anything you dont like and if rules lawyers have a problem with it , tough for them .

The point of the game is to have fun and DM cannot expect to know everything written in hundreds of books . When so and so situation arises he has to make up something on the spot if only just to move the game forward . A good player knows the rules but also the quirks of the DM .

I always found when the players are having great fun , no one cares too much about rules. A stressed DM can use book rules to shield himself from opportunist players .

Stealth Marmot
2016-12-20, 02:25 PM
Imagine trying to herd drunk ferrets through a flaming hoop

My goal is to live a life where I wouldn't HAVE to imagine those sorts of things because I'd have seen or done them.

2D8HP
2016-12-20, 02:36 PM
I always found when the players are having great fun, no one cares too much about rules.
True that.

Imagine trying to herd drunk ferrets through a flaming hoopThe DM"s (presumably sober) ferret that attacked my boot (with my foot in it) was one of the reasons that I stopped playing D&D for decades.

Stealth Marmot
2016-12-20, 03:01 PM
The DM"s (presumably sober) ferret that attacked my boot (with my foot in it) was one of the reasons that I stopped playing D&D for decades.


Well the little buggers give you +2 on reflex saves so...

CharonsHelper
2016-12-21, 09:07 AM
Its awesome to have a walking dnd dictionary provided they know when to be helpful with book knowledge and when to , to put it bluntly STFU and just accept a situation and have fun.

You should change your name to Pugrumpy I never said that they were wrong or evil - just that I wouldn't have fun playing at their table if they make stuff up on the fly like that with no consistent rulings.


Rules are a set of guidelines and suggestions written by overworked and underpaid wage slaves and constantly evolving for better or worse . Every DM has their own set of little house rules and play style that has nothing to do with any book rules . Its DM,s job to analyze all rules and discard what he thinks is less fun or too much admin . Being DM means you can change anything you dont like and if rules lawyers have a problem with it , tough for them .

I have zero problems with house rules. I just want to know what they are beforehand.

2D8HP
2016-12-21, 11:47 AM
I have zero problems with house rules. I just want to know what they are beforehand.
Sometime in the early to mid 1980's my players really wanted to try other games with different settings, chiefly Call of Cthullu (horror), Champions (comic book superheroes), and Top Secret (espionage), since I just didn't care as much about those games (I don't think I ever read all the rules of Top Secret), and I really "phoned it in".
One day after I'd GM'd a little Call of Cthullu, but no Champions or Top Secret yet, my players craved yet another RPG table top adventure game. I studied the Champions rules and just got bogged down learning them, and I barely had time to glance at Top Secret.

So what did I do?

I ran a "Top Secret" campaign using about 10% of the Top Secret rules, 70% of the Call of Cthullu rules (my thinking was that the 1920's was close enough to the 1980's, and CoC proved very easy to adapt), and 20% were rules I made up on the spot to hold it together. I described scenes I remembered from movies, and I made up most everything on the spot with little to no prep work on my part (I did have years of experience DM'ing already though).
It worked great! My players loved it :smile: (they loved it too much, I really just wanted to be a D&D player again, the closest I ever got to that in the next couple of decades was a little Rolemaster, some Runequest, and Shadowrun,. I barely got to play any D&D again until last year).:frown:
I don't know if I can improvise now like I could then, but after that experience I decided that setting is much more important than rules anyway.

CharonsHelper
2016-12-21, 02:34 PM
I don't know if I can improvise now like I could then, but after that experience I decided that setting is much more important than rules anyway.

No - that's great. I'm glad that that worked well for you and your group and you shouldn't change how you play.

It's totally a personal taste thing that I want to know the rules going in. I enjoy the tactical/strategic decision making as much as I do the straight role-playing, and I need to know the ground rules to make semi-competent decisions. (I mostly power-game sub-par choices to make them viable.)

All I meant to do was comment that a general sentiment that the rules don't matter can vary from table to table and group to group.

wumpus
2016-12-21, 07:24 PM
I don't know if I can improvise now like I could then, but after that experience I decided that setting is much more important than rules anyway.

Looks like Pendragon is up to edition 5.1. After playing Bushido (the "other" game noted for building the setting first and making pretty generic* rules built entirely around the setting) I was rather annoyed that D&D "campaign settings" really don't change the base game to match the settings.

I might buy the rules sometime, even if I don't think I will ever get any players together to play it. I'm just curious what's in it. My bushido samurai was one of my more memorable characters (I think he would have gotten into a suicidal blood feud had the game continued...).

* AD&D was the big game at the time, and I noticed a distinct mapping for all AD&D classes to Bushido classes (Samurai in service~=Paladin (not virtuous, but highest social rank), Buddhist priest~=cleric, Shinto priest=druid). I think the rest was generic to the publishing company. But every rule seemed tailored to the setting.

2D8HP
2016-12-21, 08:25 PM
Looks like Pendragon is up to edition 5.1.....
I bought four editions of Pendragon!
It topped my list of games I'd like to try for decades.

Pugwampy
2016-12-22, 08:13 AM
just that I wouldn't have fun playing at their table if they make stuff up on the fly like that with no consistent rulings.

Oh i agree the rule thats made up to help with an unforeseen situation should stay consistent afterwards unless something better is found .

If a new rule is born during a game session , everyone has to agree with it and stick to it .

If you keep asking DM for his thoughts on so and so rules in the book , you should be fine . I have yet to come across any DM who 100 percent likes and enforces every single book rule . Its possible he needs explanation and understanding to why there is such and such a rule in the book . New Dm,s always fall into that trap . Its easy to reject a rule you dont quite understand . A rules lawyer can help alot with that .

That said its quite obvious that some rules are mega flawed or needlessly time consuming . It makes no sense to use them .

Jay R
2016-12-22, 09:36 AM
I don't know if I can improvise now like I could then, but after that experience I decided that setting is much more important than rules anyway.

This is quite true, and often the issues of the setting aren't obvious. I'm currently playing 3.5e, and enjoying it. But one of my annoyances is the setting.

No, not the DM's setting. The world assumptions in the rules that pretty much any magic item can be found for sale. Magic items are not wondrous or rare, any more than a BMW is here. It just means the owner has money.

In the earlier versions, if you were wielding a +2 longsword, it meant that you had had a great adventure, and found it, hidden in some long lost treasure. In 3.x, it means that you can't afford a +3.

I'm not speaking against this version, except to say that it isn't my favorite. Lots of people love it, and I'm enjoying it. My point is that many of the differences between games are actually differences in setting, even if they are just part of the core rules.

Cozzer
2016-12-23, 05:26 AM
True. The rules do partly define a setting. If you're playing D&D and aren't stopping at level 4 or so, the rules imply that your setting has superhuman people, each of them able to take on an army of common soldiers and win. If you try to sweep this part of the setting under the rug without changing the rules, the very logic of your setting will break into a million pieces (example: the mayor threatens the level 8 PCs with three castle guards, the PCs laugh at him, the guards suddenly are level 12 despite that contradicting every other estabilished fact).

Pugwampy
2016-12-23, 09:27 AM
the guards suddenly are level 12 despite that contradicting every other estabilished fact

Ohh meanie DM <but well within his rights > I think one lvl 12 guard can handle a handful of level wussy 8 PC,s

If all NPC,s and monsters are the same level always there is no game balance .

La La land cannot be level stagnant while PC,s Level up especially for planned combat encounters . My favorite monsters are orcs and gobs , I have to put class levels on them for high level players .

My average village people are low levels but at least on par with skills .

Jama7301
2016-12-23, 09:40 AM
There's a certain joy to be found in it. If you can craft a scene or situation, a scene, an encounter, a moment, or a line that they remember for years, it's a great feeling.

On the flip side, there are debates and concessions that you may have to make. And while throwing out your planning or what you had wanted to do is hard, hopefully it can lead to a more pleasant experience. I've been prepping my first Dungeon World game for a bit, but upon talking to my players and discussing the system, 3/4 of them aren't interested in the mechanics of it, so I've had to switch it to the more familiar DnD system. Looks like the wish is to play 5e, a game I haven't played, but I'll adapt.

For me, if I can learn a system in order to give the other players a shot at enjoying themselves, as long as it's not antagonistic enjoyment at anyone else's expense, I'll be pleased.

2D8HP
2016-12-23, 10:47 AM
......Dungeon World game for a bit, but upon talking to my players and discussing the system, 3/4 of them aren't interested in the mechanics of it, so I've had to switch it to the more familiar DnD system. Looks like the wish is to play 5e, a game I haven't played, but I'll adapt.

For me, if I can learn a system in order to give the other players a shot at enjoying themselves, as long as it's not antagonistic enjoyment at anyone else's expense, I'll be pleased.I've bought (but never played) Dungeon World and it looks really cool.
I've played 5e DnD and I'm enjoying it more and more (I've also discovered that I don't like starting at higher levels, which seems to be a minority opinion).
As for being interested in mechanics, as a player after the rules provide a template for character creation, I really don't want to think about the rules at all, and just get immersed in a story in which I act like Errol Flynn as Robin Hood/The Sea Hawk/Captain Blood/Sinbad the Sailor (OK I don't think Errol Flynn ever portrayed Sinbad, but it would have been cool!, Micheal York as d'Artagnan, and the cartoon version of Aragorn work too. Yes I have a limited range).
As a DM when it comes to mechanics, decades ago I wished for more rules to cover more situations, but later I found it easier to just make up the chances of success rather than wade through the books to find the right rule. Again I think that's a minority opinion.

Alent
2016-12-23, 02:05 PM
Since it doesn't look like anyone else has posted it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTwJzTsb2QQ

Yeah, Being a DM is kind of like that.

keybounce
2016-12-25, 05:06 PM
Sure, you can always break from playing. But when you come back, if no one wants to DM or you can't find anyone. You have a choice to make. :smallsigh:

Thankfully, I have someone now who swaps with me. But it wasn't always like that.

You can always just let a player run a dungeon or special encounter for a session if the GM isn't available. Heck, Da&Dr had a session where, I think it was Pete had to run the group for a session in a bit of a challenge map.

Sariel Vailo
2016-12-28, 03:12 PM
it it is hate it is love it is infuriating,it is amazing but it depends on your group

Yukitsu
2016-12-28, 04:08 PM
I'm DM from time to time of a group of sloths who seem at the very best, willing to wait at a train station for me to send a plot wagon at them. Basically once they're on the train things are fine but if the train ever derails, it's a bunch of sloths sitting in a derailed train for hours on end. I know a lot of DMs that would love this but I'm a big fan of player agency and player choice, but give them an option of a red pill or a blue pill and they'll all be completely paralyzed by chronic indecision.

King539
2016-12-28, 07:11 PM
https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/110/images/49427-3-1388631865.jpg

Dang, someone beat me to it. Well, it's fun. As a DM, almost everything I do is improv. I love improv.

Freed
2016-12-29, 12:42 AM
It's like you're writing a story with main characters whose actions are decided by spinning a wheel.

Solaris
2016-12-29, 07:05 PM
It feels like a horde of ungrateful simpletons are constantly either roaring their disapproval at you or showering you with indifference, while you spend every last ounce of energy, time and creativity you have trying to please them - unless you stop DMing, in which case they whine at the lack of games and shun you socially while talking about you behind your back.

Ask me again in summer, I may feel better then. :smallamused:

Oh, hey, you took what I was gonna say.

GMing is great if you have a good group. There's just one problem with that: Good groups are very, very, vanishingly rare. I haven't had much luck putting together good groups online, unfortunately; it seems the internets are the refuge of those people who've been kicked out of their old groups for any number of gamer sins. Most of my enjoyment from GMing comes from watching the players and their characters overcome the challenges I set before them and navigate the world. It's a little like watching a movie or play whose script's earlier drafts you wrote: What happens bears some resemblance to what you put together, but it's being reinterpreted by the actors and the dicerector to something new.

If you have a good group, running the game is awesome. Even the mediocre sessions are a lot of fun, and I've walked away from some that I felt were rather lousy due to my performance and/or prep work being subpar but the players enjoyed (without, I think, realizing that they were the reason it worked).

If you have a middling to bad group, running the game is a tiresome chore. You'll get whiners, rules lawyers, players who just love to argue for the sake of argument because they must be right and damn anyone else trying to have fun, various flavors of sociopathy, narcissism, and other 'fun' personality disorders that they gleefully inflict on their fellow human beings... which is why it's very important to screen your players before you start your game.

I've found that every game I've run wherein I took a "Take all comers" attitude turned out just awful, by the way. It's really true what they say: An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure. The players don't even have to be all old friends of yours, either; one of my most enjoyable and best games was people I'd only just met when I posted the interest thread.


I'm DM from time to time of a group of sloths who seem at the very best, willing to wait at a train station for me to send a plot wagon at them. Basically once they're on the train things are fine but if the train ever derails, it's a bunch of sloths sitting in a derailed train for hours on end. I know a lot of DMs that would love this but I'm a big fan of player agency and player choice, but give them an option of a red pill or a blue pill and they'll all be completely paralyzed by chronic indecision.

What always makes me laugh is when I get a group like that responding to an ad for a sandbox game. Just once I'd like to get players responding to a sandbox who actually knew how to have agency rather than treat the whole damned thing like the standard-issue DM-driven plot.
It's enough to make me seriously consider quitting running games. It's certainly contributed to my deep and abiding contempt for people in general.


It's like you're writing a story with main characters whose actions are decided by spinning a wheel.

... And that's even before the dice get involved!

Spartakus
2016-12-30, 05:47 AM
Hey everybody. I've a question to all the Dungeon Masters or DMs out there? What does it like to be a Dungeon Master? Because I'm thinking of becoming a Dungeon Master someday.

It's like travelling through a foreign land wiht a map drawn by someone who's never been there. If you only care for your destination you're in for a bad surprise, but if it's the journey you want, you may as well enjoy the ride no matter how lost you are.

Seriously, your players will wreck your plans. Don't try to prevent it, embrace it. Often the most beautiful places can be found off the road.
Alos, DM'ing is a form of art. And as with all art, your first try will propably suck. So take it easy, pick a published adventure, low level and get some experience. And don't worry. Good DMs aren't good because of exceptional talent, but because they have experience and enjoy what they do.

CharonsHelper
2016-12-30, 09:23 AM
Alos, DM'ing is a form of art. And as with all art, your first try will propably suck. So take it easy, pick a published adventure, low level and get some experience.

I'll second starting with a published adventure. Besides prepping the game for you, and hopefully being decent (If you like Pathfinder - they make great adventures - but it may be crunchier than you'd want for your first time out).

It has the secondary advantage of, if the session goes badly, your players will probably blame the published adventure as much or more than they blame you! :smallbiggrin:

Solaris
2016-12-30, 05:10 PM
I'll second starting with a published adventure. Besides prepping the game for you, and hopefully being decent (If you like Pathfinder - they make great adventures - but it may be crunchier than you'd want for your first time out).

It has the secondary advantage of, if the session goes badly, your players will probably blame the published adventure as much or more than they blame you! :smallbiggrin:

There's also the advantageously polarizing effect of the adventure; both the GM and the group can look at it and use it to decide what things they do and don't like when they game.

Peelee
2016-12-30, 06:30 PM
Hey everybody. I've a question to all the Dungeon Masters or DMs out there? What does it like to be a Dungeon Master? Because I'm thinking of becoming a Dungeon Master someday.

It feels like a lot of work. Fun, but a lot of work.

wumpus
2017-01-03, 11:24 AM
Looks like Pendragon is up to edition 5.1. After playing Bushido (the "other" game noted for building the setting first and making pretty generic* rules built entirely around the setting) I was rather annoyed that D&D "campaign settings" really don't change the base game to match the settings.

I might buy the rules sometime, even if I don't think I will ever get any players together to play it. I'm just curious what's in it. My bushido samurai was one of my more memorable characters (I think he would have gotten into a suicidal blood feud had the game continued...).


Yes, I'm quoting myself. But the point is that (1e pdf) Pendragon is available for free until 1/31/2017.
https://mobile.twitter.com/stewartwieck/status/815062506024697856?p=v
(thanks to Justignorme: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21553007&postcount=7)

Innocent_bystan
2017-01-04, 04:39 AM
Running a game resembles teaching. :smallamused: You put in a tons of prep time; students/players put in little or none. You develop awesome material that they only distantly comprehend or appreciate. Sometimes they don't even show up. Sometimes they forget the basics. Often they enjoy the ride, but rarely in the way you hope or expect.

+1, my thoughts exactly.

But with the addition that it is very rewarding when done right (just like teaching).

Stealth Marmot
2017-01-04, 07:09 AM
Running a game resembles teaching. :smallamused: You put in a tons of prep time; students/players put in little or none. You develop awesome material that they only distantly comprehend or appreciate. Sometimes they don't even show up. Sometimes they forget the basics. Often they enjoy the ride, but rarely in the way you hope or expect.

Also you have to keep telling them not to shove crayons up their nose.

Or is that just my players?

Katrina
2017-01-05, 01:26 AM
In my experience, running a game is a very taxing experience. Doubly so if you are writing your own material and not using an Adventure Path or prewritten quest. You spend a lot of time each week preparing the adventure and the plot, getting the NPCs ready, trying to predict what insane troll logic your players will apply to lead them in as many squirrelly directions as possible, and keeping in mind everything you've done up to this point. You have to keep every NPC fresh enough that the players won't get bored, but you also have to face the very real concept that even your BBEG is designed to eventually be defeated. Any NPC you try to get to ally with the party will most likely be ignored or used as cannon fodder, and any NPC you don't plan a single line of dialogue for will become the party favorite.

A large portion of running a successful game is to learn what your players like and what your players expect. While you can occasionally subvert their expections and get away with it, running game elements that they don't like will quickly result in them disliking your games in general. Tailoring your game's content to your player group is key. For example, over the years, i have found that my group dislikes any form of politics or intrigue. They dislike it very strongly. What they do like is a string of combat encounters as long as your arm. And so, I have learned over the years to design my games as a series of combats with minor story stringing each one together. Occasionally, I will drop a minor intrigue or big mystery in, but for the most part they are simply fight after fight. And my players enjoy it. They really do.

I used to try and put in strong stories and get backstories from my players. I discovered that most of them were not really into that, and just wanted to fight things. Then I started writing stories that saw them get involved in a story with an NPC around them, a living macguffin they had to protect or something of that nature. But I received a surprising amount of criticism for that. So I experimented with straight combat encounters and it was wildly successful. In the end, it is all about different strokes.

Now, I am a different kind of player. The kind of player who could actually enjoy sitting around doing things in character that were simple rp and not combat or even truly story relevant. I enjoy intrigue and well developed stories and big reveals. But my players don't, so I've had to adapt to that. From all reports, I've done that well. In the end though, I find that my enjoyment is the thing that suffers from that. Doing it isn't exactly boring, because it's still a large social activity with my friends, but I've begun to wonder if it might be better to simply let the game go rather than continuing to put myself through this kind of thing.

In conclusion, it is all about the compatibility between what you like from a game and what your prospective players like in a game. If you like the same things, you'll probably find it a much more enjoyable experience than I do. But the key to being a good gm from your player's point of view, in my opinion and experience, is knowing your audience.



The short version. GMing is taxing, but can be rewarding. I have found that the biggest thing is to learn what your players want from a game, and sometimes they won't tell you overtly. You'll instead have to parse what they say they don't like until you find the formula they like.

Ninja-Radish
2017-01-06, 08:21 PM
To me it felt like trying to herd a bunch of cats who took turns scratching up my ankles. But that might not be a typical DM experience 😉