3.5 Action economics, jump, and you.

[Orionxhavok]

A recent issue came up in a game that I am a part of where a character was lying prone, on his turn he used a move action to get up, used his standard action as a move action to make a vertical jump check to try to grab the foot of a flying creature. Now he isn't trying to subdue this creature yet and as such I don't believe it's a grapple check to hit, however the srd says.

"If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired height. If you wish to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. If you fail the Jump check, you do not reach the height, and you land on your feet in the same spot from which you jumped."

Now while this seems obvious, it seems geared towards grabbing a stationary object like a wall or ledge, and not a moving, flying creature.

So given the circumstances, and the standard 3.5 rules for the game, and the action economy, would this be possible within a single turn? If so, is it a grapple check? A touch attack? Strength/dexterity check?

I only want to follow the rules if there are rules given for something this specific, however I've searched to the best of my ability and appreciate the help.

-thanks, Orion

[Ashtagon]

I'd rule this as....

Jump check to get high enough.

If jump success then touch attack to grab a hold.

If you grab a hold then start the grapple rules . Bear in mind that even if the grapple fails your weight plus what you're carrying might well exceed the flyers encumbrance limit bringing them down anyway.

[Zanos]

Trying to grab onto an actively resisting creature is going to be a grapple check, even if you "aren't trying to start a grapple." Move action to jump, standard action to initiate grapple.

[John Longarrow]

I'll second Ashtagon. This seems a lot like the "Partial Charge" that lets a zombie move and attack in one round.

Course you need to figure out the characters vertical reach before you do the jump check. Vertical reach is normally about 140% of vertical height. This takes into consideration hand open enough to grab with.

[Orionxhavok]

Zanos mentioned initiating a grapple is still nessicary, so that in that single turn it would take two move actions and a standard action to grapple. Is that the general consensus?

'If jump success then touch attack to grab a hold."

This case would still need the standard action for the touch attack unless you counted the jump check as a free action it wouldn't work since a move action was already needed to get up from prone.

[Orionxhavok]

I hate to double post but another player suggested this.

"If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."

Now the last sentence is interesting, RAW this only works with physical conditions that prevent other actions, but does this have any sway in a character having to use his move action to get up from prone?

OR

Can I leap into the air as part of the move action to get back on my feet from this text?

"Action
None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump."

The answer might be neither is true, I'm just looking for a way for this to make sense from a logical viewpoint. Since jumping and grabbing a ledge and jumping to grab a talon/foot shouldn't be that different in difficulty. Especially not so much so that it requires an additional action.

[OldTrees1]

Standing up from Prone as a Free Action is a Tumble DC 35 check.


I don't know about jumping while prone, but it might be as simple as taking the penalty for your reduced speed (0ft => -18 jump) and have double the DCs due to not having a running start(unless you have an ability that makes you always count as having a running start).

However a successful jump will land you on your feet(if you have ranks or beat the DC by 5) or prone(untrained and beat the DC by less than 5).

[Zanos]

The answer might be neither is true, I'm just looking for a way for this to make sense from a logical viewpoint. Since jumping and grabbing a ledge and jumping to grab a talon/foot shouldn't be that different in difficulty. Especially not so much so that it requires an additional action.
A talon/foot is smaller and is actively trying to kill you and your friends and is resisting being grappled.

It sounds like you're trying to get the effect of having grappled a creature without spending an action on it or rolling to do so, honestly.

[Segev]

Jumping and grabbing a ledge is all part of a move action. The game rules specify that pulling yourself up costs an additional move action of its own.

If the ledge is actively dodging, however, I'd say it takes a melee touch attack (or a CMB check for grapple, in PF) to actually grab it. And then a grapple check not to have it simply shake you off, if it's inclined to.

I'd argue that a moving but willing target would just use the normal "jump and grab" rules. So if you're trying to jump and grab the talons of a friendly giant eagle who's trying to catch you, you just need the normal jump check. And the move action that's letting you move the distance you're covering.

Because jump checks are part of a move action, and generally not actions on their own, I believe nothing prevents you from jumping as part of a charge, either.

[OldTrees1]

Because jump checks are part of a move action, and generally not actions on their own, I believe nothing prevents you from jumping as part of a charge, either.

Jumping, Tumbling, and Balancing are explicitly allowed as part of a charge.

[Zanos]

I'd argue that a moving but willing target would just use the normal "jump and grab" rules. So if you're trying to jump and grab the talons of a friendly giant eagle who's trying to catch you, you just need the normal jump check. And the move action that's letting you move the distance you're covering.
I agree.
Deus Vult!

[Orionxhavok]

So to recap, getting up from prone (move action) jumping (part of a move action) and grabbing a manticore 5 feet in the air (grapple, so standard action, but also a touch attack) is impossible without gaining additional actions in a round?

Thanks again guys.

[ComaVision]

If a player wanted to do that then I'd have them in the air and in reach of beasty at the end of their turn (get up and jump as their turn).

On the beasty's turn, if it continued flying or otherwise provoke an attack of opportunity, then the player could try to initiate the grapple. If it stayed in place and didn't provoke, the player could attempt to initiate the grapple at the beginning of his next turn.

The rules for jumping to grab something only say you land on your feet at the end of your turn if you failed the jump check.

[InvisibleBison]

So to recap, getting up from prone (move action) jumping (part of a move action) and grabbing a manticore 5 feet in the air (grapple, so standard action, but also a touch attack) is impossible without gaining additional actions in a round?

Thanks again guys.

Keep in mind that if the manticore isn't able to use its whole body to resist the grapple it probably should take a -20 penalty on any grapple checks (based on the rules for Improved Grab, MM p. 310).

[Zanos]

Keep in mind that if the manticore isn't able to use its whole body to resist the grapple it probably should take a -20 penalty on any grapple checks (based on the rules for Improved Grab, MM p. 310).
If you can't fly and are just barely making a jump to get a hand on it's foot, I doubt you're able to use your whole body either.

[InvisibleBison]

If you can't fly and are just barely making a jump to get a hand on it's foot, I doubt you're able to use your whole body either.

Good point! -20 for everyone!

[Segev]

So to recap, getting up from prone (move action) jumping (part of a move action) and grabbing a manticore 5 feet in the air (grapple, so standard action, but also a touch attack) is impossible without gaining additional actions in a round?

Thanks again guys.

You might be able to get away with calling the "jump and grapple" a "partial charge." Maybe.

[Orionxhavok]

I think ending my turn midair would be the best bet. At least then it would have to make a withdrawal action or a tumble skill to avoid the attack of opportunity, using its turn for only movement. Thanks again.