And the aeon sigh: What if all alignments in pathfinder were flipped?

[Xuldarinar]

A thought experiment and discussion I wanted to start up, just for the hell of it. In short, what would happen if (by some set of absurd means) someone managed to apply the effects of Helm of Opposite Alignment to the entirety of the Great Beyond. Everyone is flipped to their opposite alignment, though for simplicity exclude changes to those of TN alignment, and even the planes themselves flip with it. Deities for the most part change alignment, but their portfolios remain the same otherwise, if modified slightly to better fit their new alignment.

What would occur? What sorts of entities would exist then? What would you play different in such a setting?

[Lord Raziere]

Chaos. No matter how smooth the transition its going to cause widespread upheaval in some form. You don't make that great of a change to the cosmos in a single day and not get a big mess.

Suddenly all the normal PC races are evil aside from humanity who can be of any alignment so might as well be True Neutral. But all the human nations and their alignments flip, so Cheliax is now CG somehow, Alkenstar is now a lawless wild western, Galt has decided that revolution was a stupid idea and is now going back to its old traditions, Andoran is now NE and only lets people believe its still about freedom for its own selfish gain, and the River Kingdoms are now LN forming an international union to form a united economic bloc based on rigorous well-thought out treaties to make sure they never fight again while maintaining their own cultural and political independence. Just a few examples.

Suddenly the evil deities are bastions of good and realize that they are a rebel minority against once good deities that now rule most of civilization, with only small bands of good orcs and goblins and whatnot to fight back against them. PF Goblins suddenly become a race of zealous LG crusaders dedicated to burning all evil with flame, being recklessly brave and always holding themselves to their oaths no matter what to a comical degree.

The Shackles (LN) has suddenly decided to stop all illegal trading, piracy and so on, outlawing all the businesses it was founded upon, unite all its pirate lords into a single legitimate navy with a rigid command structure, and only do all its trade above the board, and fine everyone for the crimes they were committing only seconds ago. Now they hire themselves out to anyone as privateers and mercenaries who always hold to their contracts no matter what.

Rahadoum has turned CN, still completely secular but now the government has broken down, everyone thinks that life is every man for themselves, people openly yell "screw all the gods!" attack all religions that try to convert them good or evil, and pretty much descends into lawlessness and indulging in every pleasure they possibly can before death.

Nowhere near comprehensive, but should get things started.

[Xuldarinar]

Chaos. No matter how smooth the transition its going to cause widespread upheaval in some form. You don't make that great of a change to the cosmos in a single day and not get a big mess.

Suddenly all the normal PC races are evil aside from humanity who can be of any alignment so might as well be True Neutral. But all the human nations and their alignments flip, so Cheliax is now CG somehow, Alkenstar is now a lawless wild western, Galt has decided that revolution was a stupid idea and is now going back to its old traditions, Andoran is now NE and only lets people believe its still about freedom for its own selfish gain, and the River Kingdoms are now LN forming an international union to form a united economic bloc based on rigorous well-thought out treaties to make sure they never fight again while maintaining their own cultural and political independence. Just a few examples.

Suddenly the evil deities are bastions of good and realize that they are a rebel minority against once good deities that now rule most of civilization, with only small bands of good orcs and goblins and whatnot to fight back against them. PF Goblins suddenly become a race of zealous LG crusaders dedicated to burning all evil with flame, being recklessly brave and always holding themselves to their oaths no matter what to a comical degree.

The Shackles (LN) has suddenly decided to stop all illegal trading, piracy and so on, outlawing all the businesses it was founded upon, unite all its pirate lords into a single legitimate navy with a rigid command structure, and only do all its trade above the board, and fine everyone for the crimes they were committing only seconds ago. Now they hire themselves out to anyone as privateers and mercenaries who always hold to their contracts no matter what.

Rahadoum has turned CN, still completely secular but now the government has broken down, everyone thinks that life is every man for themselves, people openly yell "screw all the gods!" attack all religions that try to convert them good or evil, and pretty much descends into lawlessness and indulging in every pleasure they possibly can before death.

Nowhere near comprehensive, but should get things started.


Its beautiful.. and hilarious, to me at least.

I wonder then, if Asmodeus would let Rovagug out. Asmodeus would then be a Chaotic Good deity (matching his long-dead brother's alignment), and Rovagug would be Lawful Good. Though, that would certainly add to the bedlam.

[ngilop]

PF Goblins suddenly become a race of zealous LG crusaders dedicated to burning all evil with flame, being recklessly brave and always holding themselves to their oaths no matter what to a comical degree.



This is the greatest thing I have ever read that Lord Raziere has typed. my only correction would be

PF Goblins suddenly become a race of zealous LG crusaders dedicated to burninating all evil with flame, being recklessly brave and always holding themselves to their oaths no matter what to a comical degree.

And it makes me wish that there was at least a sect o' gobbbies that lived like this,

[Xuldarinar]

This is the greatest thing I have ever read that Lord Raziere has typed. my only correction would be

PF Goblins suddenly become a race of zealous LG crusaders dedicated to burninating all evil with flame, being recklessly brave and always holding themselves to their oaths no matter what to a comical degree.

And it makes me wish that there was at least a sect o' gobbbies that lived like this,

Now if only the Silver Pyromancer had an equivalent in pathfinder.

edit; Goblin Firebombers with the Holy Bombs discovery..

[Coidzor]

The Infinite, teeming multitudes of the Abyss start to get organized and LG demons swarm out of the Worldwound to bring Benevolent Order to Golarion and the rest of its planetary system.

Also, the blood war comes to an end, on the one hand because Asmodeus finally gets bored and on the other hand because eventually a hierarchy and chain of command and logistics kick in for the demons who have every other advantage.

[inuyasha]

If the effects are spreading to the material plane, I think that monks would be one of the most interesting changes...

Monks are beings of discipline and logic, so much so that they derive might and power from it. And if they were to become chaotic, not only would they become ferocious and insane, they wouldn't lose any of their powers.

I think that'd be pretty scary.

EDIT: Also, what do you think the now Chaotic Good Kytons would be like? I imagine they'd be more prone to breaking chains now than making them, but what would become of their trademark sadomasochism?

[Stealth Marmot]

Dogs and cats, living together, MASS HYSTERIA!

[Psyren]

My guess is universal peace, because the smartest deities in the setting are either neutral (Pharasma, Irori) and thus morally unaffected, or evil (Asmodeus and Norgorber.) LG/CG Asmodeus would easily run circles around LE/CE Iomedae - he would tie her head in knots. He would also promptly unlock the newly CG/LG Rovagug's cage, who would then lead the infinite good demons in the Abyss to very quickly overrun the comparative handful of evil archons and azata.

[Xuldarinar]

If the effects are spreading to the material plane, I think that monks would be one of the most interesting changes...

Monks are beings of discipline and logic, so much so that they derive might and power from it. And if they were to become chaotic, not only would they become ferocious and insane, they wouldn't lose any of their powers.

I think that'd be pretty scary.

EDIT: Also, what do you think the now Chaotic Good Kytons would be like? I imagine they'd be more prone to breaking chains now than making them, but what would become of their trademark sadomasochism?

Masochism would remain as would their path of body modification. They just wouldnt be bound to inflicting it upon others. Offering? Sure.

[Slithery D]

Also, the blood war comes to an end, on the one hand because Asmodeus finally gets bored and on the other hand because eventually a hierarchy and chain of command and logistics kick in for the demons who have every other advantage.

This wouldn't happen because there is no blood war in Pathfinder.

[Psyren]

This wouldn't happen because there is no blood war in Pathfinder.

It's not quite the same as the one in 3.5, no - but the church of Asmodeus does actively seek to destroy demons. (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/traits/religion/asmodean-demon-hunter) Furthermore, Golarion does have a less-specific version of the Pact Primeval (ISWG 218.)

[Sheogoroth]

It would work pretty well along the Good/Evil axis.

In fact, ineffectual but well meaning devil legalism would contrast interestingly with the Self-righteous cruelty of the merciless hand of evil justice of the Archons.

Great Old Ones then become benevolent and misunderstood alien entities, similar to Flumphs.
Mindflayers become Interstellar refugees.
Good beholders just want to be left alone, kinida like metallic dragons.
Dragons sort of just trade places.

[The_Iron_Lord]

It would be fun to play a group of PCs in this world who were CE murderers or some such, then ally themselves with all the now-good criminals to defeat the now-chaotic evil imprisoners, then do some kind of crusade to unite the demons against the archons and angels. Solars would be scary, as they can hold their own against two Balors at once, I think...


PF Goblins suddenly become a race of zealous LG crusaders dedicated to burninating all evil with flame, being recklessly brave and always holding themselves to their oaths no matter what to a comical degree.

IT IS PERFECT...

[Xuldarinar]

It would be fun to play a group of PCs in this world who were CE murderers or some such, then ally themselves with all the now-good criminals to defeat the now-chaotic evil imprisoners, then do some kind of crusade to unite the demons against the archons and angels. Solars would be scary, as they can hold their own against two Balors at once, I think...



IT IS PERFECT...



That would be fun. A number of interesting campaign elements could certainly spring from this idea. And the goblins area beautiful thing. If only one could integrate a Fire Elemental Annihilator with the Paladin class (outside of an Elemental Annihilator with VMC Paladin). Smite evil, with fire. Least some holy fire options exist already that work with gobs.




Edit; Also, started another thread on this matter over on the Paizo forums. If you want to see that side of the discussion, here is a link (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u2ne?And-the-aeon-sigh-What-if-all-alignments-in).

[Pyromancer999]

The thing is, the alignment changes in forces of the great beyond don't automatically affect the species on the Material Planes. Sure, Asmodeus may have changed alignment, but Cheliax can either claim that Asmodeus has been corrupted and uphold the new tenets, or see a newly converted Lawful Evil deity. Similarly, Clerics of Iomadae may find themselves becoming fans of the now-good Norgorber.

Also, alignment change doesn't necessarily mean opposition in portfolios/natures. Zon-Kuothon may be Chaotic Good now, but that doesn't mean he doesn't endorse bringing pain to Evil, and his darkness may cover those who need to hide while hunting evil. A better example is Norgorber becoming a patron of assassins/killers for a noble cause: the rebel who slays the tyrant, the peasant who finds the opportunity to plunge a knife into the chest of the Bandit Lord that has been pillaging his village and killed her family, the slave who offs their cruel master in his sleep.

Also, alignment changes don't necessarily mean a change in abilities. Rovagug might be willingly imprisoned now, sacrificing his freedom in exchange for the safety of the world he now loves, knowing he could accidentally unleash a demonic plague or other destruction.

[Milo v3]

EDIT: Also, what do you think the now Chaotic Good Kytons would be like? I imagine they'd be more prone to breaking chains now than making them, but what would become of their trademark sadomasochism?
They become welcoming of all forms of self-expression. You might use tattoos/piercings/exercise/fashion to express yourself, but kytons are outsiders and thus considerably more malleable physically. You may think it's disgusting or horrorific seeing a person with their skin flayed off and spikes in their eyes, but the kytons would tell you to not kinkshame them and that you should try to keep an open mind.

Note: This is sorta how Kytons work in my setting to begin with since I use the subjective morality rules.

[stanprollyright]

This is the greatest thing I have ever read that Lord Raziere has typed. my only correction would be

PF Goblins suddenly become a race of zealous LG crusaders dedicated to burninating all evil with flame, being recklessly brave and always holding themselves to their oaths no matter what to a comical degree.

And it makes me wish that there was at least a sect o' gobbbies that lived like this,

That's it: next character is a goblin paladin.

[inuyasha]

They become welcoming of all forms of self-expression. You might use tattoos/piercings/exercise/fashion to express yourself, but kytons are outsiders and thus considerably more malleable physically. You may think it's disgusting or horrorific seeing a person with their skin flayed off and spikes in their eyes, but the kytons would tell you to not kinkshame them and that you should try to keep an open mind.

Note: This is sorta how Kytons work in my setting to begin with since I use the subjective morality rules.

That's a pretty cool way to look at it! Can I get a look at these subjective morality rules? I don't dislike alignment as much as most people, but I love looking at rule alternatives and brainstorming.

[Xuldarinar]

That's a pretty cool way to look at it! Can I get a look at these subjective morality rules? I don't dislike alignment as much as most people, but I love looking at rule alternatives and brainstorming.



Right here; (From this link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules#TOC-Variant-Alignment-Rules-Unchained-Variant-), or the quote below)



Subjective Morality: You can make your world extremely complex by replacing all alignment-based effects with subjective morality based on loyalties. In this kind of game, everyone is the hero of his own story, and the only alignment-based items and spells that exist are the ones named after the good alignment (such as holy weapons and holy word) plus detect evil. However, these effects apply not to good in the usual sense, but instead depend on the loyalties of their users. When someone uses detect evil, it detects others who have loyalties that oppose the caster's. When a character wields a holy weapon, it deals extra damage to those with conflicting loyalties, and so on. It's up to the GM to decide when loyalties conflict. For instance, if a magus decides that his primary loyalty is to himself, he could not reasonably claim that everything that ever attacks him has a conflicting loyalty, but an enemy who constantly abused him in the past would have a conflicting loyalty. Against this enemy, the magus's holy attacks would strike true. This world might even do away with the idea of loyalties to the concept of good and allow paladins and antipaladins alike to use the paladin class and smite each other. Since even outsiders no longer have an alignment subtype, you'll need to add other subtypes to the list of choices for abilities such as bane or a ranger's favored enemy class feature. This covers subtypes such as demon or devil, but some outsiders have no non-alignment subtype. If you want such creatures to be subject to these abilities, you could lump them together under a new subtype (such as "independent"), or add subtypes on a case-by-case basis—the astral leviathan might have the "astral" subtype, for example.

[Milo v3]

That's a pretty cool way to look at it! Can I get a look at these subjective morality rules? I don't dislike alignment as much as most people, but I love looking at rule alternatives and brainstorming.

This page has various ways of altering/removing alignment, and more sensibly laid out than the PFSRD one IMO. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/gameplay/removingAlignment.html)

[Kish]

Some portfolios would be easier to match with new alignments than others. Chaotic Evil Justice is actually pretty easy (there's no shortage of examples of people who show every sign of genuinely believing that anything interfering with their personal whims, no matter how cruel or depraved those whims are, is objectively unjust), but Chaotic Good Tyranny is a lot trickier.

[Particle_Man]

Tangentially from this I had an idea for a campaign where the fey were all evil and the bad guys of the setting.

Anyhow, if the gods and outsiders change but mortals don't then paladins would be scrambling to find to patrons (as would antipaladins). Clerics too.

Too bad Pathfinder doesn't have modrons/slaadi because that would be hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and that player (you know, *that* guy) that wants to play the "good guy" succubus suddenly has a much stronger case. :smallsmile: