Optimization Invocations for Bladesinger\Undying Light Warlock [Archive]

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. Shadowblade .

2016-12-15, 08:22 AM

Talionis

2016-12-15, 09:17 AM

What do you need from it?

Spear maybe a waste, do you really intend to snipe with the build? I built a Warlock that could snipe and it was hard for the DM to work that into normal adventures. It's an investment that rarely had a payoff.

Repelling Blast has the ten foot knock back which is surprisingly helpful.

Misty Visions is a contender at will Silent Image is quite a bit better than the cantrip and sometimes they can work together.

Mask of Many Faces is at will Disguise Self. Very useful socially, great combo with the Friends cantrip. Beguiling Influence gives you some extra proficiencies, I'd guess you could get them if you really wanted them. They get better if you have really high Charisma which you might for EB.

Fiendish Vigor is 8 points of Temporary Hit points awesome early, but worthless over time and you won't be taking more levels to trade it out. I'd stay away from this one. But it's reasonable for melee character to consider. It also doesn't work well withnArmor of Agathys, a first level Warlock spell you should strongly consider casting in higher Wizard slots. It scales well.

For a Wizard Eyes of the Rune Keeper should be a consideration since you may have the highest intelligence and be asked to read everything. Eldritch Sight falls into the same category at will Detect Magic is something.

Devils Sight is very good less good if Tiefling has Dark Vision, I can't remember between variants, but I think you can cast Darkness once a day as a Tiefling it's a combo. You won't be able to spam Darkness since you're not getting second level Warlock spells and I don't think Darkness is on Wizard list, but I could be wrong on that.

Don't take Armor of Shadows, just cast Mage armor with a first level slot, heck your 1st level Warlock slot recharges possibly before your first encounter of the day.

Beast Speach and Whispers of the grave are probably not worth it, but talking to dead corpse can be funny and effective.

. Shadowblade .

2016-12-15, 11:06 AM

btw we are in Ravenloft (Curse of Strahd campaign)

Eldritch Spear - I guess it would be useful on outdoor battlefield mostly, where I will be free to fly and snipe enemies with EB.
Dont know how common such encounters will be in CoS campaign.

Devil Sight - I dont have tiefling ability to cast the Darkness (because I am Winged Tiefling), but it is on my wizard list anyway :smallwink:.
Could be very useful against magical darkness.

Repelling Blast - not sure about its usefulness - for close combat I have my swords and GFB/BB melee cantrips and for ranged combat EB, Firebolt and Sacred Flame. So both combat variants are covered here.

Talionis

2016-12-16, 01:37 PM

Seriously, look at Armor of Agathys. Its awesome spell if you are going to be in melee. It lasts for a pretty good time. Drive yourself silly trying to keep it around longer by getting resistances or other things that help reduce damage (a cleric with Warding Bond can be your best friend), but that first level spell cast in higher level slot can be a godsend. Extra damage. Extra Hitpoints. and its like a Rattlesnake, who wants to hit me and get hit, which can be an effect where your enemies don't know your AoA is gone.

Daehron

2016-12-16, 01:55 PM

btw we are in Ravenloft (Curse of Strahd campaign)

Eldritch Spear - I guess it would be useful on outdoor battlefield mostly, where I will be free to fly and snipe enemies with EB.
Dont know how common such encounters will be in CoS campaign.

It is situational, at best. You'd have to work hard to make it worth while for you.

Devil Sight - I dont have tiefling ability to cast the Darkness (because I am Winged Tiefling), but it is on my wizard list anyway :smallwink:.
Could be very useful against magical darkness.

Again situational, but unless your whole team has Devil Sight, gaining a tactical advantage for just yourself, while gimping the rest of the party, is not a good team building exercise.

Repelling Blast - not sure about its usefulness - for close combat I have my swords and GFB/BB melee cantrips and for ranged combat EB, Firebolt and Sacred Flame. So both combat variants are covered here.
Repelling Blast's knockback is not about usefulness for yourself, especially not in melee combat. It is about altering positioning of opponents for the party's benefit. Coupled with movement restricting effects, it can be game changing. A much more useful trick than Devil Sight, for certain.

Gignere

2016-12-16, 05:04 PM

For a winged tiefling devil sight + darkness combo is absolutely devastating. You can get out blocking your friends by flying but since you are still hidden by darkness you enjoy permanent advantage and become untargetable by a lot of nasty spells.

Citan

2016-12-17, 06:58 PM

Hello,
which invocation is best for Winged Tieflling Bladesinger 3/Undying Light Warlock 2 ?
1st one will be Agonizing Blast, which leaves single opened invocation slot.
My hot candidates for tthe 2nd invocation are Devil Sight and Eldritch Spear...
I prefer to be able to reach Bladesinger 18, so Warlock will be just Level 2 dip (=max 2 invocations)
Hi! ;)

Hmm, as much as I hate playing the dealbreaker, I don't think you are geared towards the best choices here...
I mean, I understand how you like the idea of +CHA on each blast. But unless you intend to bump CHA, by the time you get your 3rd ray, you will deal more damage with your wizard cantrips (both melee and ranged) because your INT will be much higher (so better to-hit and better damage on hit), and this will be even truer at 17th level...
I mean, even Firebolt and GFB taken as Wizard cantrips will benefit from the bonus Warlock damage, so I see no reason to take them "as Warlock", and no reason to use anything else on mundane turn unless the enemy is resistan/immune to fire, in which case you also probably have other options than Eldricht Blast as a Wizard.

I would rather suggest you choose any two among the following, considering what you like to play with, what role you want to fulfill in the party, and more generally what it will probably need the most...
So, please bear with a quick rundown of my opinion on the invocations (these are totally unordered, numbers are just for readibility)...

1. Armor of Shadows: it's only one spell slot, so it will be of diminishing value over time, and a wasted invocation past level 12 or so. But until then, it's always one more slot you have for a "oh ****" Shield every adventuring day. This may make a difference until level 5. Probably a bad choice if your DM tend to follow the guidelines with 2 short rest though. Probably a great choice if he tends to prevent the party from taking short rest.

2. Beguiling Influence: always nice skills to be proficient with, a top choice if you don't have a face already.

3. Devil's Sight: it is not only useful in the "Darkness" concept. If you like to go adventuring solo, if you are expected to contribute to scouting/ambushing, if you expect to go in lots of dark places, or if nobody else has darkvision, this is a top choice.

4. Eldricht Spear: this can be great or useless. It depends a bit too much on the situation to my taste, and it does influence you to stay so far away from your friends that they may feel you are not a teammate. XD And since you are a Wizard, I would tend to say that if blasting from afar is really your thing, taking Spell Sniper feat would be a much better idea (because you ignore half and 2/3 cover, so it's actually usable more easily in enclosed areas).

5. Fiendish Vigor: same as Mage Armor. Great in the first levels, very little value past level 5-6 or so. Better on a pure Warlock than as a "definitive choice" one.

6. Eldricht Sight: very campaign dependent, so maybe ask people who know your campaign... For those with much magic involved it's great. But, big but... It's a) a ritual, b) on Wizard list. Clear PASS.

7. Eyes of the Rune Keeper: same.

8. Gaze of Two Minds: situationally great, but even while I love those kind of abilities, this one imo requires a bit too much of "preparation" to be really useful. I would pass...

9. Misty Visions: Silent Image is always a great one to play with. ;) Always a good choice if you are creative with illusions.

10. Mask of Many Faces: always useful in many situations. A solid choice.

11. Repelling Blast: because this is a "soft control" feature, it can be useful in many various situations. It can also synergize fairly well with many Wizard spells, basically all that are AOE, concentration (Flaming Sphere, Wall of Fire, Web, Grease, Stinking Cloud, etc).

My personal choice would be, considering it's a "definitive" choice...
Repelling Blast, because I love the ability to push people into traps or away from friends ;)...
And any other among Devil Sight, Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions: basically abilities which you couldn't easily obtain otherwise through class features or feats.

. Shadowblade .

2016-12-19, 05:37 AM

Citan

2016-12-19, 06:45 AM

thanks for analysis, guys

Repelling Blast - I have just problem that there is no logical additional effect related with this knockback effect for EB in rules - no chance for knockdown ( with save), no additional dmg when repelled creature hits the wall / other creature - it just depends on DM's decision. Plus it is forced movement - so no attacks of opportunity - well, maybe except of our Polearm Master Paladin (?). I know that I can repel them to hazardous terrain or off the ledges, but I dont plan to cast hazardous terrain spells often, because I will need to keep my concentration for defensive spells (Protection from Good & Evil, Blur, Haste etc...)
True enough, every of what you said.
But in fact that was not the main use I viewed for this effect anyways. ;)
Rather...

1. Push enemies together in the expectation of a friend's AOE (like that creature that thought itself smart by keeping 20 feet away from his squad in case of a Fireball, or this other one that could be included in the field of a Slow if he was only 5 feet closer from others). Or just pushing one creature towards your muscle friend with the big-ass GWM weapon so he can actually bash the head full-time on his next turn, instead of having to use action on Dash or cope with thrown weapons.

2. Push enemies away so one of your friend can move on his oncoming turn without risking an OA or having to Disengage. Or just help your tanky friend hold a chokepoint by repelling some creatures so the actual number of creatures that will attack your friend in a given round is lessened, if only by one.

3. Worst case, push your allies themselves out of harm way: a nice DM would admit a auto-hit if your target is willing, and while the idea of hurting yourself your friend may seem strange, there are some corner-cases when suffering this will still be the better option. After all it will be only ever around ~5 HP it suffers.
Situations such as...

- Your friend is grappled or restrained by a creature (so speed 0), which would be too hard to hit.
- Your friend is in the periphery of a difficult terrain (so close to normal terrain), so couldn't reach his objective without having to Dash (or more generally, there is somewhere he wants to reach that he couldn't with just his normal speed).
- Your friend could use action on Disengage, but it's really important he is free to act on his next turn because this could change the encounter dynamic.
- Your friend could use action on Disengage, but then he couldn't Dash to run away, and he does want to run away as fast and far as possible from the 1+ nasty creatures that are currently threatening him.
- Or more generally, you -or (s)he- finds that losing around 5 HP is a perfectly acceptable price to pay to be free to act. Especially once everyone has >70 HP.

All of this may seem very situational, and it is indeed.
But while situations where you using Repelling Blast could save the day will be very rare, if you pay attention, you will find many other situations where Repelling Blast is "just" an excellent choice. Especially once you get several beams (so you could "just deal damage" on a target with one-two beam, while also use one just for the sake of tactical positioning). It is really something similar to a Fighter splitting his Attack between weapon attacks and shove. ;)

The main problem of this is that you probably won't increase your CHA ever, so it may seem a bit unreliable at times compared to a true Warlock (unless, for cases 3, your DM accepts the fiat. Which seams very reasonable to me). On the bright side, this is an attack, so you can use the usual advantage mechanics and other buffs (such as Bless) if available.

. Shadowblade .

2016-12-20, 02:20 AM

I have high Charisma and I plan to to max. it for stronger punch so there is no issue here.
But I guess this can be problem for pushing allies around (1d10+Cha dmg).

Citan

2016-12-20, 05:39 AM

I have high Charisma and I plan to to max. it for stronger punch so there is no issue here.
But I guess this can be problem for pushing allies around (1d10+Cha dmg).
Hmmm so you are actually gearing towards 100% EB Invocations (Repelling Agonizing?)
That sure makes sense with the fact that you plan on maxing Charisma. It means you want it to be your main sustained attack I guess?
Or you planned to max Charisma "just" for the fire bonus on GFB and fire spells you will learn as a Bladesinger?

But it does indeed make it much more hurting. The ideal would be that your DM houserule Agonizing to work as Repelling (you *may* add CHA but you don't *have* to).
Otherwise it means that...
- On a Bear Barbarian, Ancients Paladin, Chain Lock, you can still use it without thinking too much, since they will have damage.
- On Fighters / Paladin / Barbarians built as tank (high CON), it is the same.
- On all others, this will probably be too risky a tactic until you all get over 10th character level or so at the minimum.

Honestly, I would probably take only Repelling, because there are plenty good other invocations to choose from, and you also have nice cantrips as a Wizard, notably Firebolt and GFB which will benefit from your +CHA bonus... And you will also probably want to go into melee most of the time to use your class features).

But either choice is good anyways. ;)

. Shadowblade .

2016-12-20, 08:40 AM

Hmmm so you are actually gearing towards 100% EB Invocations (Repelling Agonizing?)
That sure makes sense with the fact that you plan on maxing Charisma. It means you want it to be your main sustained attack I guess?
Or you planned to max Charisma "just" for the fire bonus on GFB and fire spells you will learn as a Bladesinger?

But it does indeed make it much more hurting. The ideal would be that your DM houserule Agonizing to work as Repelling (you *may* add CHA but you don't *have* to).
Otherwise it means that...
- On a Bear Barbarian, Ancients Paladin, Chain Lock, you can still use it without thinking too much, since they will have damage.
- On Fighters / Paladin / Barbarians built as tank (high CON), it is the same.
- On all others, this will probably be too risky a tactic until you all get over 10th character level or so at the minimum.

Honestly, I would probably take only Repelling, because there are plenty good other invocations to choose from, and you also have nice cantrips as a Wizard, notably Firebolt and GFB which will benefit from your +CHA bonus... And you will also probably want to go into melee most of the time to use your class features).

But either choice is good anyways. ;)

I want to have both powerful melee & ranged attack - GFB/BB for melee attack + Firebolt (level 1-4) / EB (level 5+) for ranged attack to effectively use my improved mobility and save my spell slots, so I will be able to optimally choose from close/ranged combat according the enemy abilities.

So I want Agonizing Blast definitely and not sure about the Repelling Blast / Devil Sight / Eldritch Spear.
btw: I am also not sure if my party members would be happy when I would repel their opponents around the battlefield :smallbiggrin: especially the paladin...

Citan

2016-12-20, 11:03 AM

I want to have both powerful melee & ranged attack - GFB/BB for melee attack + Firebolt (level 1-4) / EB (level 5+) for ranged attack to effectively use my improved mobility and save my spell slots, so I will be able to optimally choose from close/ranged combat according the enemy abilities.

So I want Agonizing Blast definitely and not sure about the Repelling Blast / Devil Sight / Eldritch Spear.
btw: I am also not sure if my party members would be happy when I would repel their opponents around the battlefield :smallbiggrin: especially the paladin...
Well, that COULD actually be a very fun way to interact with him... If you are opposed in alignements, teasing him that way... XD

Otherwise, I'd say just ask your DM if he would admit the suggested houserule (choice to add +CHA or not), if yes pick Repelling Blast, otherwise just roll 1d4 (1. Reroll. 2 Repeling Blast. 3. Devil Sight 4. Eldricht Spear). :smallbiggrin:

. Shadowblade .

2016-12-20, 12:07 PM

Well, that COULD actually be a very fun way to interact with him... If you are opposed in alignements, teasing him that way... XD

Otherwise, I'd say just ask your DM if he would admit the suggested houserule (choice to add +CHA or not), if yes pick Repelling Blast, otherwise just roll 1d4 (1. Reroll. 2 Repeling Blast. 3. Devil Sight 4. Eldricht Spear). :smallbiggrin:

well, he is Vengeance paladin :smallbiggrin:

I prefer to pick the invocation myself, I have still two levels for my decision and questions for DM :smallsmile: