Sorcery Points as Spell Points

[Lawful Good]

Okay, don't get me wrong. I love sorcerers.
The problem is that they're rather inferior compared to wizards. With the addition of spontaneous casting to every caster, the only thing the sorcerer has going for it is metamagic. The problem with this is that they only get up to a meager 20 SP at max level. So a level 20 Sorcerer can cast roughly 20 spells with their FUN and INTERESTING mechanic, and then goes back to being a wizard, minus spell recovery and with only 15 spells (Yes, they can also create spell slots with their SP, but that drains their very limited resource even faster).

I had an idea for a mechanic, but I don't know how to make it work. I already use the Spell Points variant in the DMG for Sorcerers to make them a bit more flexible. My idea is to incorporate SP into the Spell Points system. By that I mean using Spell Points AS Sorcery Points. I don't know how this would balance, and whether or not sorcerers would need more/less Spell Points with this, but I think it would be interesting, so I have come here for your infinitely superior knowledge:smallbiggrin:.

Thoughts?

[Oramac]

Off the top of my head, and with no math done for balancing, I'd say just make the metamagics cost a number of Spell Points equal to their normal Sorc Point cost.

For example: Heighten Spell costs 3 Sorc points. If you want to use it with Spell Points, you have to spend (Spell Cost + 3) to cast the spell as Heightened.

[Lawful Good]

Off the top of my head, and with no math done for balancing, I'd say just make the metamagics cost a number of Spell Points equal to their normal Sorc Point cost.

For example: Heighten Spell costs 3 Sorc points. If you want to use it with Spell Points, you have to spend (Spell Cost + 3) to cast the spell as Heightened.

That's what I was thinking, but it feels like Sorcerers would have access to way much metamagic in a given day. I don't know, maybe a limit on the amount of metamagic used in a day?

Or maybe [Spell Cost +(2x normal mm cost]).

[Oramac]

That's what I was thinking, but it feels like Sorcerers would have access to way much metamagic in a given day. I don't know, maybe a limit on the amount of metamagic used in a day?

Or maybe [Spell Cost +(2x normal mm cost]).

Not really. Heighten is probably a bad example, since its cost is static.

Consider Twinned Spell. 1 point per spell level, so if you want to twin a 6th level spell, it'll cost 15 total points. Nine for the spell itself, and 6 for the upcasted Twin. You can do it more often than normal, but still won't be able to do that too often before you burn through a lot of points really fast.

[Lawful Good]

Not really. Heighten is probably a bad example, since its cost is static.

Consider Twinned Spell. 1 point per spell level, so if you want to twin a 6th level spell, it'll cost 15 total points. Nine for the spell itself, and 6 for the upcasted Twin. You can do it more often than normal, but still won't be able to do that too often before you burn through a lot of points really fast.

Hmm. Maybe the Sorcerer should have more Spell Points to represent their greater versatility with their known spells.

At a rough stab, maybe a bonus 2 points per Sorc level or something.

[Spiritchaser]

I have a DM that agreed to combine them. (points equal to spell points plus sorcery points, and those points could be used for either)

The thinking is that in a spell point campaign, sorcerers lose a differentiating factor and become relatively weaker.

Now: if I had a sorcerer wizard MC I imagine he might have considered a different call... Or maybe not.

[Oramac]

Hmm. Maybe the Sorcerer should have more Spell Points to represent their greater versatility with their known spells.

At a rough stab, maybe a bonus 2 points per Sorc level or something.

Possibly. I'd want to playtest it as is first, and then adjust up and down from there.

[Asmotherion]

I usually play a Sorlock, and to be honest, I am more than pleased by what they can do.

I don't know, I feel the only thing the Sorcerer was lacking to be an Excelent class was a good damage-scaling mechanic. When combined with the Warlock he gets said mechanic... Seeing how well these 2 classes work together, I feel like they were designed with a multiclass between them in mind to begin with.

Now, about Spell Point Varian Rule. I have used it in the past (Refluffed as "Mana", since it was a Tales of Symphonia-based campain), and wile it works, it can make tracking a bit too time-consuming. It would be a bother to have a Sorcerer with both spell points and sorcery points, so I used the same idea of SP=SP. It's not really game-breaking; after all the core concept of a sorcerer is that he has a source of magic in his body/soul and thus can cast more spells. Back in 3.5 Sorcerers had around 140% the spell slots of wizards.

Also, Quickened spell alone makes up for (almost) everything the Sorcerer lacks. Add to that Twined and Heightened, and I feel he's probably the most effective caster, only hindered by his lack of spell options to cast. His counterpart, the Wizard, is more about knowing more spells, making him the most creative caster, as he can combine effects of diferent spells.

[Lawful Good]

I usually play a Sorlock, and to be honest, I am more than pleased by what they can do.

I don't know, I feel the only thing the Sorcerer was lacking to be an Excelent class was a good damage-scaling mechanic. When combined with the Warlock he gets said mechanic... Seeing how well these 2 classes work together, I feel like they were designed with a multiclass between them in mind to begin with.

Now, about Spell Point Varian Rule. I have used it in the past (Refluffed as "Mana", since it was a Tales of Symphonia-based campain), and wile it works, it can make tracking a bit too time-consuming. It would be a bother to have a Sorcerer with both spell points and sorcery points, so I used the same idea of SP=SP. It's not really game-breaking; after all the core concept of a sorcerer is that he has a source of magic in his body/soul and thus can cast more spells. Back in 3.5 Sorcerers had around 140% the spell slots of wizards.

Also, Quickened spell alone makes up for (almost) everything the Sorcerer lacks. Add to that Twined and Heightened, and I feel he's probably the most effective caster, only hindered by his lack of spell options to cast. His counterpart, the Wizard, is more about knowing more spells, making him the most creative caster, as he can combine effects of diferent spells.

I feel like the Sorlock is an amazing multiclass, but...I just feel like the Sorcerer should feel like a Sorcerer on it's own. That's a good point, though. Going off of 140% of a wizard's spell slots that is 133*1.4=186 SP, which is 53 extra. That feels like a bit of a stretch for power, but I think I'll playtest it and possibly bring it down a bit.

[Theodoxus]

I use SP=SP and have had no problems. The sorc in my group loved it - pumping out more metamagic effects than a baseline sorc was really in his wheelhouse. (He was a little sad that I was a scrouge with his Wild Magic procs... that's a mechanic I'd have no problem tossing to the dustbin.)

We even use SP for warlocks, simply returning whatever points they used on a short rest, up to their warlock max. Have had no trouble tracking them.

FWIW, Hero Labs 5E edition has the spell point variant, and it's pretty slick. I've gone pretty crazy casting spells on my cleric in one game, only to look at my SP pool and realize I'm about to run out! The other casters just shake their heads at me... until I remind them that most of my points went to getting them back up after falling down to demons in our OotA game.

[MaxDPSsays]

I'm AFB right now, but don't they get 4 SP on short rest if they are out once they hit 20? How would that play in? That could effectively give them a lot more spells to cast?

[Lawful Good]

I'm AFB right now, but don't they get 4 SP on short rest if they are out once they hit 20? How would that play in? That could effectively give them a lot more spells to cast?

I see this as a smaller problem, because that's what? 2 1st level spells per short rest? Wizards on the other hand get a first level spell that they can cast indefinitely.

The Sorc would need a different capstone, but then again, it's current one isn't that great.

[Citan]

Okay, don't get me wrong. I love sorcerers.
The problem is that they're rather inferior compared to wizards. With the addition of spontaneous casting to every caster, the only thing the sorcerer has going for it is metamagic. The problem with this is that they only get up to a meager 20 SP at max level. So a level 20 Sorcerer can cast roughly 20 spells with their FUN and INTERESTING mechanic, and then goes back to being a wizard, minus spell recovery and with only 15 spells (Yes, they can also create spell slots with their SP, but that drains their very limited resource even faster).

I had an idea for a mechanic, but I don't know how to make it work. I already use the Spell Points variant in the DMG for Sorcerers to make them a bit more flexible. My idea is to incorporate SP into the Spell Points system. By that I mean using Spell Points AS Sorcery Points. I don't know how this would balance, and whether or not sorcerers would need more/less Spell Points with this, but I think it would be interesting, so I have come here for your infinitely superior knowledge:smallbiggrin:.

Thoughts?
Honestly, I think you have been VERY generous already by allowing them to use Spell Points in general. That is the balance-tipping thing compared to other casters, far more than what you suggest now. Because there is no waste of slots ever.

Now, if your player is frustrated because, in spite of all this effective added power, he doesn't feel like a Sorcerer because Sorcerer is about Metamagic (which view I share ;) I'd say you have the following options.

1) Do as you say, fusing SP and SP (XD), but...
- Not adding them (so by level 20 player would have 133 points to use on both spell cast and metamagic).
- Keep the Metamagic cost as is.
- Give a "short-rest" spell points regain equal to half Sorcerer level.
This is the most sensible option imo. You really don't "gimp" your player, you just put him back on par with others, because while he would have less "raw magic" a normal Sorcerer (slots + sp), he is a total master of how to consume, so he can effectively use Metamagic as often as he want.
The short-rest bonus is here to give a small boost so Sorcerer feels he actually gains something when short resting, while giving you some leeway to adjust the power balance.

2) Keep the Spell Points, drop the Sorcery points, make it a "class-level" feature: he can use any metamagic X times per short rest.
+ Easier tracking
* Unless he always use "scaling" Metamagic, it should not break balance in the long run, because sometimes he would use Twin with 5th level spells (which should be costly), but othertimes Extend (fixed cost) or Heightened (fixed cost) or Quicken (fixed cost) so it will compensate...
- Depending on his current level and the scale you set for this (CHA mod? Level/3 ? proficiency? Level/2? same progression as Battlemaster dices?), your player may feel gimped compared to his current use...
But again, this makes short-rest as valuable for him as it is for others, which I think is a good thing in general.
And depending on the scale you choose, he will end either with roughly the same amount of pure power, or with a great overall boost, because you made put all Metamagic at a low, fixed cost.
That is why I would suggest something not too big and easy to track such as 1+CHA mod (high start) or 1+(class level/3) (more smoothed out, avoid multiclass OP). You end with 6-7 short-rest which is already very powerful.

3) Roughly the same as previous with following difference...
- This time the Metamagic is a long-rest resource, equal to half Sorcerer level.
- Whenever you finish a short rest, you regain expended uses equal to CHA mod.
Easier to track, much more balanced in terms of giving more fun to player while keeping raw power in check.

4) Plain long-rest "Sorcerer level" times whatever Metamagic.

Frankly, option 1) is very powerful in latent potential, but should be fine in practice, unless...
Either for some reason I was wary of my player for abusing the system or cheating in cost (but then I think the problem is much bigger than just metamagic balance in the first place ;)).
Or the "fixed number" mechanic feels actually more suited for you or your player, and you don't mind about the very big boost in power it means in the end.

(Personally I'd go for the option 3) though: easy to track, makes player feel the progression, makes short-rest interesting, should not be OP most-cases. And the loss of sorcery points to slots conversion is minor compared to the gain imo).


A. Typical example we see all around : Twinned Haste.

Normal Sorcerer (let's use the stupid idea he upcasts it as 4th because he just needs it): could cast it 3 times as 3rd, 3 times as 4th (SP cost: 3*3+3*4 = 21, works thanks to 4 SP on short rest). So a total of 6 times. If converting slots for extra spellcasting, normal Haste would amount to 14. If converting for Twinned Haste, it would amount to 10.

Your Sorcerer as is right now could cast basic Haste (133/5 = 26 times), could cast Twinned Haste the same number or 1-2 more (short-rests) as normal Sorcerer, because it's still normal mechanic. So between 6 and 8 times. With "slot" conversion, would be between 15 and 17 (not sure about math here).

With solution 1 (fusion). (merge SP and SP, max 133, short-rest partial recovery), he could cast Twinned Haste (133/(5+5)) 13 times without short-rest. With 2 short-rests, you go up to 15 times.

With solution 2 (short-rest only). You can cast Twinned Haste 18-21 times provided you get two short-rest.

With solution 3 (long-rest + partial short-rest recovery). You can cast Twinned Haste at least 10 times, up to 20 with two short-rest.

With solution 4 (long-rest only). You can cast Twinned Haste 20 times. Period.

B. Quicken comparison
Normal: 10 Quicken per long-rest, 4 more with two short-rest.
Current situation: Same.
Solution 1 (fusion): up to 32-35 1st level spells XD. Well, more reasonably, he could Quicken between 18 and 26 Haste per long rest (depending on short rest). Or between 15 and 19 Hold Monster.
Solution 2 (short-rest): 6-7 times per short rest > 18-21 times per long rest.
Solution 3 (long-rest + short-rest): between 10 (no short-rest) and 20 (2 short-rest).
Solution 4 (long-rest): 20 times.

C. Heighten comparison
Normal: 6-9 times depending on short rest.
Current situation: same.
Solution 1 (fusion): up to 26-28 1st level spells o/. Or 16 Heightened Bestow Curse. Or 13 Heightened Hold Monster.
Solution 2 (short-rest): between 6-7 and 18-21 times depending on short rests.
Solution 3 (long-rest + short-rest): between 10 (no short-rest) and 20 (2 short-rest)
Solution 4 (long-rest): 20 times.

D. Twinned Hold Monster.
Normal: 3 times, maybe 4 with two short-rest + slot conversion.
Current situation: Same, unless you use slot > sp conversion "by the book". Then you can probably go up to 10 times or so (I'm too lazy now ^^).
Solution 1 (fusion): 11 times.
Solution 2 (short-rest): between 6 and 19 times depending on short rests (19 being the hypothesis where Hold Monster is the only spell you cast for the whole day).
Solution 3 (long-rest + short-rest): between 10 (no short-rest) and 19 (2 short-rest)
Solution 4 (long-rest): 19 times.

Of course, all of these are extreme cases. Any decent Sorcerer will cast a variety of spells (Shield, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Blindness, etc) so the actual risk of overpowerness or cheesiness is lower than what you could think when viewing this.
Still, in all cases, you are giving a great boost to your player. I suggest you design your method depending on how many short-rests you usually allow them to get. ;)


RECAP
Reminder:
Table for level 20 character
RAW = PHB system: spell slots + sorcery points
Current = spell points + sorcery points.
1. Fusion = spell/sorcery points, max 133, with 10 regained on short-rest.
2. Short-rest only = fixed cost whatever metamagic, suggestion 1+ (class level/3 rounded down)
3. Long-rest + Short-rest = Half sorcerer level long-rest, regains CHA uses on short-rest.
4. Long-rest only = 20 uses of whatever Metamagic per long rest.

Note: for "normal" casts, in the first case, the number represents the maximum possible by blowing every other spell slots and all SP on slot conversion).
More generally, this is the extreme case where this is the only spell used in the whole day.
Numbers given are minimum (no short-rest) and maximum (2 short-rest).



RAW PHB
Current
1. Fusion
2. Short-rest fixed
3. Long-rest
4. Long-rest only


"Normal" Haste
20
26
26
26
26
26


Twinned Haste
15
15
16-18
6-18
10-20
20


Quicken 1st level spell
10-14 > 29 (conversion)
10-14 > ~30
32-35.
6-18
10-20
20


Quicken 3rd level spell
~15
26
18-26
6-18
10-20
20


Quicken 5th level spell
11
17
19
6-18
10-19
19


Twinned Hold Monster
7
13
11
6-19
10-19
19






Sorry for the long solo brainstorming. Hope that will give you good hints. ;)

Have fun!

EDIT: I started making a table for more cleaner presentation, and I realized I totally forgot that from RAW Sorcerer could convert slots into sorcery points. Dang, much of what I did is wrong... XD

EDIT 2: This time did the math for extreme case (only one spell used for a day, with or without Metamagic, everything being blown to sustain this). Hopefully I didn't make any mistake (had been a long time since I had to use my maths memories ^^).

[Lawful Good]

3) Roughly the same as previous with following difference...
- This time the Metamagic is a long-rest resource, equal to half Sorcerer level.
- Whenever you finish a short rest, you regain expended uses equal to CHA mod.
Easier to track, much more balanced in terms of giving more fun to player while keeping raw power in check.


(Personally I'd go for the option 3) though: easy to track, makes player feel the progression, makes short-rest interesting, should not be OP most-cases. And the loss of sorcery points to slots conversion is minor compared to the gain imo).




Wow, I hadn't thought of that. I think that will make the player very happy. Thanks for all that.
The player's not the type to use cheese.

I hadn't thought about the sorc's lack of needing a short rest, or of using metamagic as it's limiting factor. That is a very good idea, my good sir:smallsmile:.

[Theodoxus]

- This time the Metamagic is a long-rest resource, equal to half Sorcerer level.
- Whenever you finish a short rest, you regain expended uses equal to CHA mod.
Easier to track, much more balanced in terms of giving more fun to player while keeping raw power in check.


Wow, I hadn't thought of that. I think that will make the player very happy. Thanks for all that.
The player's not the type to use cheese.

I hadn't thought about the sorc's lack of needing a short rest, or of using metamagic as it's limiting factor. That is a very good idea, my good sir:smallsmile:.

I like it too, however, I would change equal to CHA mod. to equal to Proficiency Bonus.

I feel there are too few mechanics tied to PB that are instead tied to ability modifiers. PB is a smoother transition and doesn't negatively impact players who don't maximize their attributes (for whatever reason).

[Kane0]

I've allowed sorcs to use spell points in my game, merging SP and SP. works fine, I even houseruled that on a short rest a sorc that spends HitDie to heal also get 1 spent SP back for every two hit die spent.

[Talamare]

What if...

Reduce the Max Sorcery Points to Half your Sorcerer level

Regain Sorcery Points equal to your Charisma Modifier every short rest

[Citan]

I like it too, however, I would change equal to CHA mod. to equal to Proficiency Bonus.

I feel there are too few mechanics tied to PB that are instead tied to ability modifiers. PB is a smoother transition and doesn't negatively impact players who don't maximize their attributes (for whatever reason).
You know, that was my first thought in fact, because I like, as you, to refer to things that are progressive and easily trackable by players and DM alike.
But, what made me prefer following the +CHA mod is...
- Significantly better at the start, considering you probably have a +3 (16) anyways.
- CHA mod is one of the things the player uses everytime anyways, since it's his core attribute. So it's as easy for him to remember this single number as it is the proficiency bonus.
- Power balance in the end. Remember that making Metamagic a fixed thing whichever one is used, is already giving an overall boost compared to usual ones, because players usually will choose at least one of the expensive ones (Quicken > Heightened > Twinned), maybe two, and use them often. So I feel that having to spend ASI on CHA is an acceptable price to pay to get more metamagic regain (I mean, if you use metamagic that much, you are casting that much, so you will probably want to bump CHA anyways).
- Also, I feel that regaining ~2/3 of your long-rest resource every short-rest feels... Strange, clunky. 1/2 is already at the limit of coherence imo (one other reason why I feel the player should invest).
- Finally, the most important reason (which is linked to previous point): multiclassing. Giving proficiency bonus is too great a gift to any multiclass. Imagine a Paladin, with just 12 Sorcerer levels (so 6 metamagic uses), he could just bump STR and CON, but would still basically regain 100% of his Sorcerer side without any price.
At least with CHA base you still have an opportunity cost.

@OP: with that said, the balance I suggested with this mechanic was made on the premises that Twinned or at least Heightened would be among the chosen Metamagics. If your player intend to choose only 1-point Metamagics, then unless you strictly respect the short rests he would actually lose compared to a normal Sorcerer. In that case, just take the short-rest regain on top of normal rule. ;)


What if...

Reduce the Max Sorcery Points to Half your Sorcerer level

Regain Sorcery Points equal to your Charisma Modifier every short rest
Problem of this is that it doesn't necessarily answers OP's need.
If you follow the guidelines, player just ends with the same amount of SP, except that now he cannot even blow everything for a nova encounter. (20 = 10 + 5 +5).
If for whatever reason short rest cannot be taken, it's a net loss.