Flip it around. Redeemed succubus: how to survive an encounter with paladin

[Frosty]

We've had a lot of threads on what a paladin should do when encountering a redeemed demon, and whether or not the paladin might fall for taking the violent approach. This is a very paladin-centric discussion, with the succubus as an object merely to be acted upon. We assume the paladin is the "PC" or the "protagonist" if this is a story.

So, what about from other point of view? With the succubus as the protagonist, how might a redeemed succubus (either neutral if she's still in the early days of her redemption or Good if she has been at it successfully for a while) go about convincing the inhabitants of the material realm that she's actively on their side now? What can she do when the paladin Sir Smites-a-lot with the "Oath against Fiends" archetype walks into town looking for her? Or when the LN inquisitor Sir Burn-the-Unclean threatens to kill the villagers if she doesn't give herrself up for execution? How can she do so and at the same time avoid the assassins that her former "friends" are sending after her for her heresy of turning away from evil?

Assume in this world that it is possible for evil outsiders to redeem, but it is almost unheard of. But, the gods haven't said that it *never* happens.

[Telonius]

Well, the quick and easy way would be for the Succubus to take a level in Paladin or Cleric of a good-aligned deity. Display a holy symbol and cast, or summon your Special Mount. Unless Sir Smites-A-Lot thinks his own judgment is better than the gods', he'll hold his fire.

(EDIT) Apparently Thursday is Succubus Day at giantitp - three threads at the top? :sabine:

[Ninjattack]

It sounds like you're going for a non-violent solution, so the first thing that came to my mind was not engaging if the paladin starts to become violent and just try to calm them down. This might anger them though, since if its a Succubus they could get accused of trying to charm and deceive the paladin.
The idea of maybe quoting their god in some way to their advantage if they know enough about the paladin's god also comes to mind, but this could also potentially fail...
Maybe just keep being non-violent in actions towards the paladin, keep trying to convince them of their changing to the side of good, and maybe have a really good shield should things turn violent. Honestly if the paladin starts to attack, attacking them back probably wouldn't be the best way to reassure them that a change has occurred.

[Calthropstu]

Doesn't the succubus have teleport at will?

[John Longarrow]

Step 1) Get rid of the EVIL type by ritual/spell/what ever. Depends a LOT on how the DM handles this.
Step 2) Get associated with a GOOD organization/group. Succubi shouldn't be able to convince the Paladin without a massive amount of work but a Cleric to a GOOD deity should.
Step 3) Avoid being the "Succubi walking around in natural form in a remote village". That screams "Something is off". Be the "Succubi working repentantly at a church to GOOD deity". If there are a hundred clerics about helping said former fiend stay on the straight and narrow said Paladin is much less likely to see this as a smiting situation.

From there, DON'T travel in succubi form. They can change shape. This is the same advice for any 'EVIL' being. Don't go around looking like an evil being. After all, what do most people do if they see what looks like a nasty monster prowling their streets?

[Zanos]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/706/204/d3f.jpg

Not introducing yourself as a Succubus might be a good start, though. If you aren't doing anything Evil you don't really have a need to, and Paladins won't smite you just for having an Evil aura. Probably.

[hamishspence]

From there, DON'T travel in succubi form. They can change shape. This is the same advice for any 'EVIL' being. Don't go around looking like an evil being. After all, what do most people do if they see what looks like a nasty monster prowling their streets?

Problem is, anyone with True Seeing, or similar, is going to see the real form and conclude "They must be disguising themselves for nefarious purposes".


Being upfront about what one is might actually pay off better, if one is affiliated with a Good organisation. The combination of horns, wings, and covered in Good-aligned imagery (symbol of Good deities, uniform of Good organization) may prevent this "disguising demonicness and getting caught" problem.

[Frosty]

Step 1) Get rid of the EVIL type by ritual/spell/what ever. Depends a LOT on how the DM handles this.
Step 2) Get associated with a GOOD organization/group. Succubi shouldn't be able to convince the Paladin without a massive amount of work but a Cleric to a GOOD deity should.
Step 3) Avoid being the "Succubi walking around in natural form in a remote village". That screams "Something is off". Be the "Succubi working repentantly at a church to GOOD deity". If there are a hundred clerics about helping said former fiend stay on the straight and narrow said Paladin is much less likely to see this as a smiting situation.

From there, DON'T travel in succubi form. They can change shape. This is the same advice for any 'EVIL' being. Don't go around looking like an evil being. After all, what do most people do if they see what looks like a nasty monster prowling their streets?
1) for the purposes of this exercise, assume no one knows of any mortal ritual that can change her subtypes.

2) how would she get the Good organization/Church to trust her and accept her in the first place? "Hi mr. cleric of Iomedae. I'm a demon trying to shake my evil ways but I need help! Please don't cast Holy Smite on me. Give me a chance!"

[hamishspence]

Coming to their aid at a critical point (maybe if you see them going somewhere hazardous and falling afoul of the hazard) might be a good starting point.

[Frosty]

It sounds like you're going for a non-violent solution, so the first thing that came to my mind was not engaging if the paladin starts to become violent and just try to calm them down. This might anger them though, since if its a Succubus they could get accused of trying to charm and deceive the paladin.
The idea of maybe quoting their god in some way to their advantage if they know enough about the paladin's god also comes to mind, but this could also potentially fail...
Maybe just keep being non-violent in actions towards the paladin, keep trying to convince them of their changing to the side of good, and maybe have a really good shield should things turn violent. Honestly if the paladin starts to attach ck, attacking them back probably wouldn't be the best way to reassure them that a change has occurred. you're making it sound like violence is inevitable. Anything the succubus says will be brushed off as "astronomical Bluff score"

[Lord Raziere]

Redeemed Succubus Survival Guide:
1. First, disguise yourself as a Tiefling. This makes sure that its plausible that you have a lot of knowledge about the lower planes and that you use demonic magic while still being tolerable by everyone else, even if its as an outcast. Disguising yourself as another race will be seen as an attempt at infiltration after all. And a grain of the truth is the best way to hide it. Thus when its revealed your a succubus to your close trusted friends, it won't be all that surprising.

2. The Prime Material Plane, no matter how difficult it is to live in, is still better than the Abyss. Even if you live a life of hiding what you are for the rest of your days in paranoia, it will still be a better life than the place you left. Mortals are not as cruel as demons, as distrusting, or as powerful. The people who are actively trying to kill you are generally pretty obvious an much fewer in number than all demons: paladins and the occasional angel who comes down, but mostly paladins, so if one ever comes to town, it'll be quite easy to just disguise yourself and leave. Quite simply, this tip is basically saying "assuming no good person ever accepts you, surviving the Prime Material plane in secret is still a better life than surviving the lower planes, so take what you can get."

3. If you can't convince the paladin, the most moral option is to escape. Killing a paladin is an evil act, and letting mortals die from your conflict is not Good either. If a paladin comes, run as fast as you can until you can hide, perhaps find a way to distract the paladin to go find and fight a real evil.

4. perhaps look into figuring out ways of anonymously posting up quests and bounties on quest-boards to let adventurers know where all these evil beings are so that they don't come for you. Basically be a secret informant that makes sure adventurers and paladins are too busy fighting the demons searching for you rather than you yourself.

5. If your throwing away all attempts at secrecy or pragmatic survival in your quest for redemption, head straight to the upper planes and beg the angels for redemption. Don't bother with the paladins, just go straight to the top and get approval from the guys in charge of Pure Good. If you succeed, they will probably give you some holy thing that will prove you have their approval for redemption which you can show to the paladin as well as everyone else to make sure they understand. A paladin can't really argue if their superiors has given you their stamp of approval, and if the paladin does argue, that probably means the paladin is on his way to falling.

6. If all else fails, there are rituals to turn yourself into other things permanently. Just turn yourself fully into a tiefling and start over. It'll still be hard. But at least you'll be a demonic thing that people can accept can become good at all.
Nevermind, no such rituals exist apparently in this thread.

[Frosty]

Wouldn't disguising yourself as ANY race be seen as infiltration?

[hamishspence]

"I'm part-demon"

When the truth comes out

"I never actually said how big that part was."

[Troacctid]

You have greater teleport at will. Just leave. *shrug*

[hamishspence]

You have greater teleport at will. Just leave. *shrug*



What can she do when the paladin Sir Smites-a-lot with the "Oath against Fiends" archetype walks into town looking for her? Or when the LN inquisitor Sir Burn-the-Unclean threatens to kill the villagers if she doesn't give herrself up for execution?

Might solve the first, but not the second. Sometimes, there's going to have to be a face-to-face meeting.

[Troacctid]

The second guy is evil, so kick his ass.

[Frosty]

The second guy is evil, so kick his ass.maybe. But shouldnthe succubus risk the villagers? The inquisitor already has hostages.

[hamishspence]

Second guy is Neutral, making Evil threats though. And if they have backing, starting a fight is just going to lead to backup being sent.

It's not unprecedented in D&D to have nonevil but very ruthless organizations. According to Complete Scoundrel Adventurer, the Order of Illumination (clerics, paladins, rogues, paladin/rogues) believes that destroying a village to eliminate one demon is reasonable.

[Zanos]

Yeah, murdering innocents to purge the Evil is pretty clearly a character who slippery sloped into Evil themselves quite a long time ago.

[hamishspence]

Or at least, a very very dark shade of Neutral. In practice though, such characters aren't going to remain Neutral for very long.

[Frosty]

Second guy is Neutral, making Evil threats though. And if they have backing, starting a fight is just going to lead to backup being sent.

It's not unprecedented in D&D to have nonevil but very ruthless organizations. According to Complete Scoundrel, the Order of Illumination (clerics, paladins, rogues, paladin/rogues) believes that destroying a village to eliminate one demon is reasonable.

How does that order have PALADINS?

[Troacctid]

I assume all their paladins feel an irresistible urge to take Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Sunder for some reason that they can't quite put their fingers on.

[hamishspence]

They probably tend to be the public face of the Order, with the nastier deeds being done by the clerics.

The paladins still sometimes fall though. The order had two PRCs - one aimed more at paladins (Shadowbane Inquisitor) and one aimed more at clerics (Shadowbane Stalker).

The quote in question:

p68:
Their relentless zeal and their overwhelming belief in their own righteousness allow shadowbane inquisitors to root out evil cleanly, even if it costs the lives of a few good creatures, without the moral doubt that other knights might feel. The Order of Illumination expounds that it is better to sacrifice a village that hides a powerful demon than it is to risk letting the demon escape or the evil spread.

[John Longarrow]

2) how would she get the Good organization/Church to trust her and accept her in the first place? "Hi mr. cleric of Iomedae. I'm a demon trying to shake my evil ways but I need help! Please don't cast Holy Smite on me. Give me a chance!"

If clerics of a good deity can't tell the succubi is changing to good then the DM probably doesn't want said succubi in the game. If the clerics do some of the divination they are famous for then the DM will probably let them realize the succubi is repentant.

Really its all a question of "Does the DM want it or not". If yes, its going to happen. If not, well, SOL.

hamishspence
If they are high enough level to toss around true seeing odds are they are not going to just assume. By that point they should be experienced enough to realize that a DEMON walking around gets a lot more attention than an average girl. Course its up to the DM to make that call. If the DM doesn't want said succubi in game.. well... guess the high level people get to shoot first and ask questions later.

[Frosty]

If clerics of a good deity can't tell the succubi is changing to good then the DM probably doesn't want said succubi in the game. If the clerics do some of the divination they are famous for then the DM will probably let them realize the succubi is repentant.

Really its all a question of "Does the DM want it or not". If yes, its going to happen. If not, well, SOL.

hamishspence
If they are high enough level to toss around true seeing odds are they are not going to just assume. By that point they should be experienced enough to realize that a DEMON walking around gets a lot more attention than an average girl. Course its up to the DM to make that call. If the DM doesn't want said succubi in game.. well... guess the high level people get to shoot first and ask questions later.

Yes but the point is: logically, what can do the succubus do to increase her handed of being accepted?

[John Longarrow]

Just like the real world the Succubi can let the others make up their own minds.

Succubi doesn't attack. Succubi comes to priest seeking redemption. Priest asks highers up for help. If highers up say "OK, we'll look into this and help the repentant" then Succubi should be OK. If highers up say "Burn the fiend" Succubi can't do much.

[Frosty]

If you were the GM of a solo campaign based on this, what kinds of "reasonable obstacles" would you place in her road to convincing others of her good intent? Obviously, if everyone is all like "burn the fiends" then she is screamed like you said. By too quick of acceptance would seem silly.

[John Longarrow]

DMing a solo game? Hmm... She'd be effectively a 12th level character before anything else. sooo...
Step 1) WHY does she want to change alignment? This drives just about everything else. Normally this is some interaction that would lead to a LOT of other options. Lover? Being under cover too long? Magical change? Running from someone bigger? Captured and stuck dealing with someone? Lots of reasons all of which would then engender what the next step would be.

Since the character is not in a vacuum they would be dealing with SOMEONE who could help persuade others to give her a chance.

[Lord Raziere]

Wouldn't disguising yourself as ANY race be seen as infiltration?

Think of it like this: if a Succubus infiltrator wanted to go undetected why disguise as Tiefling? It makes no sense from an infiltrators perspective. You want to AVOID any connection to the Lower Planes if you want to learn stuff from Paladins or Angels in how to win the war. A infiltrator would disguise as an Aasimar Paladin, play the paladin stereotype to the hilt and no one would suspect a thing.

Whereas if you tell everyone while disguised as a Tiefling "hey I'm a half-demon rogue, I'm trying to put a lot of bad things in my past behind me and do better now." Its a socially acceptable form of partly admitting your former evilness in a way they are used to and can understand. It'll make them be suspicious of you at first because y'know, Tieflings get that kind of hate all the time, but thats the point. Like any Tiefling, you'd show through your actions that your not a bad person, and if you show your goodness long enough, when people finally figure it out, its less of a surprise.

Whereas if you hide it completely, just be all ordinary human or something, people will definitely see it as hiding your demonic nature and try to kill you. You'd be trying too hard.

However if you go up to mortals in succubus form and say that "I'm good guys, trust me!" thats not believable at all. Your not trying hard enough, people will just think your just a really incompetent succubus trying to manipulate them somehow. They will just kill you, because you introduced the truth too suddenly.

Remember, anything involving demons you need to be cynical to succeed. Especially if you are one. People need to be sold on the truth in very specific ways in order for you to survive. Most people your probably just going to tell them "I'm a Tiefling Rogue" and that will tell them all they need to know. All social interaction is manipulation unfortunately, and you need to sell everyone on the fact that your really Good and not just lying about it. Any such selling the real story, the whole "I'm a succubus that is actually Good" story is going to mostly consist of selling it to the people who matter, and its not going to be immediate or quick and easy to achieve even for them. Such manipulation is subtle and requires time. Time you will never have if you go out in full succubus form and get killed immediately.

Really what your talking about is a problem for any shapeshifter. A Shapeshifter Paradox if you will: everyone distrusts the shapeshifter because of their power, yet when they do not hide they are still distrusted and hated because their true form is a clear indicator that they are capable of such things, so they shapeshift into a form to hide so they don't have to deal with it. The very power that earns them such distrust and hate is also often the power that shields them from it. That allows them to keep living through it, but of course forces them into lives and jobs where they have to use such power for darker means. The only solution is to somehow get people to stop hating shapeshifters, but how do you do that? That is not a problem that is ever going to be simple or easy to solve. Any Eberron Changeling can tell you that.

Thankfully, a Succubus's talent for manipulation and her shapeshifting powers might make her the ONLY demon that CAN potentially try to redeem themselves and survive the experience. Sure other demons could try, but they don't have any method to hide themselves if no one believes them, they are easily spotted and thus more easily killed by paladins who can find and kill them. They simply have no socially acceptable way of packaging their nature that mortals would be able to accept. A Succubus on the other hand could escape, shapeshift and try to truly redeem herself with other people, and thus can always try again if they escape fast enough. The Succubus may be the most likely to lie, but they are also the most likely to realize through their social skills how far they've fallen and how valuable real bonds of respect with others are. As well have all the social tools to sell people on not being evil.

[Ualaa]

Might solve the first, but not the second. Sometimes, there's going to have to be a face-to-face meeting.

The second guy is doing the killing, not the Succubus.

If she can stop him, great.
If he happens to be an epic 30th level Inquisitor that she stands no chance against, he is the one doing the killing not her, so standing aside in a battle that cannot be won is not evil.

Lawful good doesn't mean Lawful Stupid.

[John Longarrow]

Lord Raziere

Erinyes can also pass as "Good outsiders" in many cases, but only to those not familiar with said outsiders. One going into a small city and doing good as a "Wandering sage" could easily be seen as 'not evil' if they act nice. Toss in a hat of disguise to change their feathers white and you've got it.

From there, just not talking about your past would be the best way to avoid many issues. That is until you've established yourself and people realize you can be trusted. This is of course because they do still look angelic. So long as they don't lie they would be fine.

[OldTrees1]

Inhabitants:
I am here to help and understand your reasonable distrust. All I ask is that you give me the opportunity to prove myself. I will submit to any and all precautions you wish.

Sir Smites-a-lot with the "Oath against Fiends":
It is wrong to slay a good person. I understand you do not believe me when I say that I am a good person, but mistaken disbelief is no excuse for murder. Still since you do not believe me then you have no excuse to risk letting me go. So I propose that you put me in the custody of someone you would trust with the redemption of criminals. If I am telling the truth then this will come to light in due time. If I am lying then I will be prevented from doing immoral deeds and the lie would eventually come to light and end with my execution.


Sir Burn-the-Unclean threatens to kill the villagers if she doesn't give herself up for execution:
Self sacrifice is morally superogatory. While it is an option, I will skip onto other valid options. The villagers are in danger, go free them and lead Burn-the-Unclean away from the village. Perhaps even send word to nearby Paladin orders requesting them help protect the defenseless.

[John Longarrow]

Relevant question....
What happens to an outsider killed on the prime?

[Frosty]

In Pathfinder, they just die. No second chances.

[Beneath]

That's 3e-era D&D generally. Pre-3e, fiends killed on the prime go home, but 3.0 nixed that (I think 5e may have reverted that though)

Though if this is in pathfinder isn't there a literal goddess of redemption who's an at least moderately-popular deity for the side of good our succubus could take sanctuary in a temple of?

[Frosty]

DMing a solo game? Hmm... She'd be effectively a 12th level character before anything else. sooo...
Step 1) WHY does she want to change alignment? This drives just about everything else. Normally this is some interaction that would lead to a LOT of other options. Lover? Being under cover too long? Magical change? Running from someone bigger? Captured and stuck dealing with someone? Lots of reasons all of which would then engender what the next step would be.

Since the character is not in a vacuum they would be dealing with SOMEONE who could help persuade others to give her a chance.
There many possibilities. Let's say in this case someone forced a Helm of Opposite Alignment on her, and it worked. Now a LG succubus, she is both wracked by guilt of her past actions, and also terrified that someone with powerful magic would revert her to her previous alignment. Starting off, her initial motivations (or at least part of her motivations) for doing lots of good deeds is that she hopes with enough good deeds, she will have a true, "organic" change of moral outlook, so even powerful magic couldn't instantly revert her. She lives every day in fear that the demon lord she once served would come after her (either with powerful magic to reclaim her or just with powerful minions), and hopes that she can make her changes permanent.


That's 3e-era D&D generally. Pre-3e, fiends killed on the prime go home, but 3.0 nixed that (I think 5e may have reverted that though)

Though if this is in pathfinder isn't there a literal goddess of redemption who's an at least moderately-popular deity for the side of good our succubus could take sanctuary in a temple of? Well, Sarenrae is the most likely deity that the succubus would turn to. Her clerics would be the least likely to act like Sir Smites-a-lot.

[Knightofvictory]

If it's really somehow a redeemed succubus? She should allow the Pally to strike her down for her many lifetimes of evil, and hope that the Pally's patron is in the mood for Miracle levels of redeeming. If she's sincere, she won't care about survival as much as redemption.

The problem is, even helping an entire village full of orphans and puppies could still be a long term plan to trick mortals out of their souls over generations, or even trying to make a certain Paladin fall. A smart Paladin would worry about endangering not just his own soul, but those of everyone around the demon, every day. Remember, the Paladin's worst fear isn't that the succubus will kill everyone. It's that she will take everyone's soul, slowly, gradually, and no one will know until it's too late and they're all hers. Innocents dying is sad, innocents falling to evil and lost forever is the Worst Thing. I don't think any Paladin I've ever run would spare the demon for anything less than divine (DM) intervention. Wanting to believe that a succubus could really be turned good just this once, is almost like the go-to "how to tempt a paladin" play. As a player, I'd be worried about falling for even considering sparing a demon.

I could see a Paladin risking his own life and soul killing villagers if necessary to protect their souls from the demon's influence. A paladin falling in the line of duty torching a village might be better than that village succumbing to evil. Pally's and demons fight for 'souls' even more than 'lives' because their fight on the Material Plane is just one part of the eternal conflict.

Tieflings or Half-fiends make better "impossible redemption" stories to me, as their soul is still being fought for since they're at least part mortal, while a demon is Fallen, the end result of thousands of corrupted souls and torture and suffering, they're Evil- the end.

That being said, go with what makes the best story. :smallamused:

[Beneath]

Well, Sarenrae is the most likely deity that the succubus would turn to. Her clerics would be the least likely to act like Sir Smites-a-lot.

Right, and if they're going to try to redeem evildoers then that means protecting them from aggressive smiteadins; an offer of redemption is completely hollow if they won't stop someone from killing a redemption-seeker on their ground. Traditions such as sanctuary and guest-right exist for a reason, after all.

Her teleportation powers mean that, as long as not dimensionally anchored (not a paladin spell), she can escape to the temple, and once there, it's at worst a trial, which is more her element than the paladin's, especially if she's been demonstrably making an effort to do good and right past wrongs, and was turned good by a helm of opposite alignment since doing whatever specific evil deeds the paladin wants to put her on trial for.

It's entirely likely that the losing outcome for her in a trial is being expelled from a given temple and no longer under the protection of the clerics there, but unless she either runs out of clerics who can force whatever paladins want to kill her to negotiate or Sarenrae has a global head of clergy who presides over a trial she loses, she can just teleport and start over. This does depend on the clergy of Sarenrae merely lifting their protection from her instead of agreeing to execute her themselves, but that's not their style, which should count for a pretty major circumstance bonus to her already +19 opposed diplomacy check. Sarenrae's CG, and CG types tend to love to see people slip the gallows after being sentenced because a technicality in the ruling allows them to legally run away.

Other than that, she can teleport and doesn't need to eat or sleep. She can just hide somewhere, alone, for as long as her patience lasts, and flee when anyone gets close. It's not ideal, and it's somewhat against her nature as a succubus, but it's safe. She could pose as, for instance, a benevolent nature-spirit.

[John Longarrow]

Let's say in this case someone forced a Helm of Opposite Alignment on her, and it worked.

Simple. She'd either stay with who ever converted her (they are kinda responsible) OR turn them in for effectively mind raping her, depending on the situation.

First means she's got someone who's going to vouch for her and her conversion.
Second means she goes to what ever temple, tells them all, and abides by their decision if they are so inclined as to punish her for her past sins. HoOA is like that, you become pretty fanatical about your current alignment and don't want to ever change it. LG with major sins in her past is most likely to seek justice even when its to her own detriment.

[Kelb_Panthera]

We've had a lot of threads on what a paladin should do when encountering a redeemed demon, and whether or not the paladin might fall for taking the violent approach. This is a very paladin-centric discussion, with the succubus as an object merely to be acted upon. We assume the paladin is the "PC" or the "protagonist" if this is a story.

Given the special-snowflake nature of such a creature, the LA (or whatever equivalent PF uses), and the common distaste for evil characters in an otherwise good party; it isn't the most unreasonable presumption.


So, what about from other point of view? With the succubus as the protagonist, how might a redeemed succubus (either neutral if she's still in the early days of her redemption or Good if she has been at it successfully for a while) go about convincing the inhabitants of the material realm that she's actively on their side now? What can she do when the paladin Sir Smites-a-lot with the "Oath against Fiends" archetype walks into town looking for her? Or when the LN inquisitor Sir Burn-the-Unclean threatens to kill the villagers if she doesn't give herrself up for execution? How can she do so and at the same time avoid the assassins that her former "friends" are sending after her for her heresy of turning away from evil?

Yeah, bad news; you will -never- convince the overall populace of the churches of good deities that you are not a threat but an ally in spite of your abominable nature. Best you can do is convince individuals you that you encounter and that's tough row to hoe.

First thing's first; to hide or not to hide? Each has its pros and cons.

If you hide your nature, getting along with people will be easier but you run the risk of being discovered. Recovering from that SNAFU will be horrifically difficult or even impossible very nearly every time. It is your very nature to be a deceiver and anyone that recognizes you for what you are will know that. Submitting to their authority, if it's legitimate, -might- convince them but it'll always be a craps-shoot.

On the other hand, being open and honest will mean contending with the (frankly, justified) prejudice that will inevitably be hurled at you from all quarters. You will be driven from communities by torch-and-pitchfork wielding commoners wiith some frequency and finding yourself in the presence of a cleric of a good deity will demand you flee with all haste unless doing so is impossible most of the time.

If, by some perverse miracle, you manage to ingratiate yourself to a community, they may be willing to stand on your behalf against a cleric or paladin but such a champion -will- view you with unyielding suspicion for years unless they're fairly gullible. Even so, you may still be driven out by over-zealous clergy or even the community members you'd protected if the clergy convince them you pose a threat or even just threaten to withhold services (hopefully a bluff on their part).

Dedicating yourself to one of these gods of good might buy some leeway but it might also inspire horrendous wrath from a percieved blasphemy.


The underlined warrants special mention. It -seems- like a kafka trap but it's not. You can't know if he's bluffing or not and if he isn't then their blood is on his suddenly LE hands. Unless you're magically compelling them to act or they are your voluntary subordinate acting on your direct orders, you cannot be reasonably held responsible for the actions taken by another. Bonus points, as a creature with no conscience, you won't feel guilty if he does butcher them. :smalltongue:

Unfortunately, it does screw your reputation pretty hard. If you leave, he can pass the blame and will probably get away with it. If you stand and fight and slay him, his order will have the "proof" it needs that you must be eliminated. If you stay and surrender, you're almost certainly doomed. Best case; you stand and fight, subdue the inquisitor, and then escape. If the town-folk don't lynch him for threatening them (same result as having killed him yourself), he gets to report you to his superiors as a credible threat. Now you're a priority target but at least nobody died. Your alignment is in no danger but your rep is screwed.

[Mordaedil]

If it's really somehow a redeemed succubus? She should allow the Pally to strike her down for her many lifetimes of evil, and hope that the Pally's patron is in the mood for Miracle levels of redeeming. If she's sincere, she won't care about survival as much as redemption.

You realize sucubi are made, right? They haven't been around since dawn of time. Usually it is the result of a dretch/petitioner being promoted enough times to become one. Or a higher ranking demon like a balor or marith to be demoted to one. They are literally a collection of souls and a sucubi that is some how good or redeemed would likely be composed of people doomed to hell for minor crimes and would have been recently formed. Sucubi that have existed for a long time and have no qualms about their actions are usually reinforced by the evil composing their souls that make them that they cannot just somehow redeem themselves willy-nilly. The very fabric of their creation would rather cause them to do more evil instead.

As such, I think it is really sinister to insist she be struck down for "lifetimes of evil" when she's not got any memories past her current incarnation.

Or at least, that is how I understood how the planar system works, maybe I'm wrong.

[Frosty]

Kelb, how might divination and lie-detection be used to reasonably demonstrate the demon's good intent? Can their results be trusted? Is there some way to prove behind a reasonable doubt that the succubus is not subverting the spells? otherwise ypit sounds like I'm your opinion, the redeemed succubus is just screwed no matter what.

[John Longarrow]

Without DM approval and support, the Succubi will be toast in a reasonably run game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb, how might divination and lie-detection be used to reasonably demonstrate the demon's good intent? Can their results be trusted? Is there some way to prove behind a reasonable doubt that the succubus is not subverting the spells? otherwise ypit sounds like I'm your opinion, the redeemed succubus is just screwed no matter what.

Unfortunately, no. Even with mortals you can never be entirely certain that magic isn't blocking your divinations. There are counters to every form of divination.

You might be able to sell the caster, if they're not too paranoid, on the idea that the succubus is good but there's always somebody better and the best amongst demons and devils are epic level creatures. Even without this fact in mind, presuppositions can and do lead people to ignore evidence placed directly before them. Demons = bad is so frequently true (read; virtually always) to such a degree (fiend) that even a skilled diviner might question his own magics, nevermind the more likely cleric whose doctrine calls for the extermination of fiends wherever they be found. That his compatriots would believe the creature is good rather than that it had successfully duped the caster seems even less likely.

That said, I suppose the usual pairing of zone of truth with detect lies and carefully phrased interrogations could do well enough.

[hamishspence]

On the other hand, being open and honest will mean contending with the (frankly, justified) prejudice that will inevitably be hurled at you from all quarters. You will be driven from communities by torch-and-pitchfork wielding commoners wiith some frequency and finding yourself in the presence of a cleric of a good deity will demand you flee with all haste unless doing so is impossible most of the time.

Solution - find one of those nonevil D&D communities that is extremely open to fiend visitors that behave themselves- Sigil, or Union. No torch-wielding mobs there.

Also - there's various ways of getting bat wings that don't require being a fiend - being a Favoured Soul, taking appropriate tiefling heritage feats, etc. Thus, people may not be immediately assuming the worst, on sight.

[stanprollyright]

You're a Succubus. You probably know which clerics are likely to smite you because you can read other creatures' desires like the back of your hand. Otherwise, you're just gonna have to do the trial and error approach of asking people for redemption and teleporting away if they get smitey.

Also, I would go to a lawful neutral church before a good one. Firstly, neutral clerics are likely less jumpy about fiends. Second, if you submit to the regular divination on casters that can protect themselves from mind-affecting effects, the good clerics might still kill you for the "greater good." If you approach LN clerics peacefully seeking judgement, they have to put you on trial before they can kill you, out of principle. If you're found not guilty, they have to let you go. Anything less would set a dangerous precedent. The best would be a LN sect of a LG deity, since they would be into redemption too.

[Klara Meison]

Coming to their aid at a critical point (maybe if you see them going somewhere hazardous and falling afoul of the hazard) might be a good starting point.

That obviously means succubus instigated the hazard in the first place. CONSTANT VIGILANCE!

That being said, essential parts of that are correct. Virtually no amount of good hard work or diplomacy would convince ordinary people that you aren't evil.

Really, you only have two choices-either you effectively con everyone into trusting you, then reveal your nature in a tearjerking scene where you complain that nobody would have trusted you otherwise, and con everyone into trusting you by...telling the truth. Or, you find a bored high-level wizard, honestly explain the situation to them, have them check you over to insure you aren't lying and stuff, then they help you with your problem. A good way to insure you aren't lying would be to Planarly Bind you with an order like "Don't lie to me, wherever directly or by omission, in the following interrogation", since I believe there is no magic whatsoever that can stop Planar Binding from working.

[Psyren]

Might solve the first, but not the second. Sometimes, there's going to have to be a face-to-face meeting.


The second guy is evil, so kick his ass.

Second guy is also an idiot. Inquisitors have both Detect Evil and Detect Good, so it's pretty easy to verify if you're dealing with a garden-variety Succubus or a redeemed one (i.e. the latter will ping on both.)

[Spellbreaker26]

Wait, why would even the most evil inquisitor try to get her to surrender by threatening to burn civilians?

If he thinks she's evil, he would have no reason to think that would work.

[hamishspence]

But if he knows she's good, but wants to kill her anyway because he's a believer in "fiends taint the material plane" even if it's not proven to be true - then he can think his threats will work.

[Frosty]

Because he inquisitor may hate demons enough that on the off chance this one is good, it's a way to gain leverage? If the succubus was faking good, then theninwhisitor doesn't really lose anything (can tell everyone hag the demon did it).

[Segev]

There's something I think we're all overlooking, here: Succubi are literally mistresses of persuasion. Sure, you can build a PC with more bluff and diplomacy, but compared to 95%(*) of the world, a succubus is probably the most convincing individual that you're ever going to meet.

(*)this statistic totally validly generated by plucking it out of thin air and dropping it onto the internet

I think we're actually falling prey to a common fallacy when RP meets mechanics: we're assuming that, because "everyone knows" succubi are persuasive, that you'll always have your PC distrust her. Think about that for a moment, and apply it more broad-spectrum. "Everyone knows" that bards are unreasonably persuasive, so obviously nobody believes them. They know anything the bard says could be a lie they can't detect, so they won't trust them!

The simple truth of the matter is that, once you remove the meta-knowledge that "she has a high bluff score, so I can't be sure she's telling the truth," people generally do believe somebody if their Bluff exceeds their Sense Motive. Or at least, they believe that person believes it, or are fooled into acting as the bluffer wants for approximately six seconds, minimum.

There is a supreme irony that knowing that somebody is GOOD at lying means that you don't believe them. Doesn't that actually make them very bad at lying? No. It means they're good enough at it that you believe them anyway. Maybe only "this time." Maybe because they used reverse psychology.


So honestly, a succubus should be able to convince a Paladin she's reformed under most circumstances. She should be able to convince nearly anybody of this. Even if it's not true. That is, of course, the danger. But at the same time, if it's true, shouldn't she have an easier time making the case than if it's not? She has less to hide. Not "nothing to hide," necessarily (perhaps she's truly ashamed of her past sins, or she's hiding something that she fears, if the paladin doesn't believe her, he'll hurt - like a half-fiend child she had with the man whose love redeemed her). But less.

While D&D's social mechanics are lackluster at best, so it's hard to figure out how a paladin "should" be persuaded, in theory a succubus should be able to talk people into believing her, at least long enough to get a fair examination. Only when she encounters the corrupt "paladins" who are seeking to kill her for reasons other than "she's evil and corrupting people" will this fail. And let's be honest...she has experience with those kinds of people, and should be fairly in her element there, too.

It's hardly impossible to kill a succubus, of course. But in theory, she should be quite able to persuade people she's gone good, if she wants to. Which is why the LG Paladin, thus convinced, should still be insisting on investigating and proving it, so that he can take this evidence to his higher-ups or his god, and get her cleared all the way to the top.

[Frosty]

Well the whole demon thing probably includes a negative 20 penalty because people don't like them. Or maybe the "lie" of redemption Is so ridiculous it imposes a circumstantial penalty.

[Psyren]

There is a supreme irony that knowing that somebody is GOOD at lying means that you don't believe them. Doesn't that actually make them very bad at lying? No. It means they're good enough at it that you believe them anyway. Maybe only "this time." Maybe because they used reverse psychology.

Indeed, this is basically how MCU Loki works. Everyone knows he's a habitually lying git, but he gets routinely trusted anyway because "why would I lie THIS time???"



It's hardly impossible to kill a succubus, of course. But in theory, she should be quite able to persuade people she's gone good, if she wants to. Which is why the LG Paladin, thus convinced, should still be insisting on investigating and proving it, so that he can take this evidence to his higher-ups or his god, and get her cleared all the way to the top.

From the Paladin's side, verifying her is easy. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/phylactery-of-faithfulness) The trick is dealing with Miko paladins, who are probably about to fall anyway if they haven't done so yet.

[Frosty]

Well, I guess if the succubus still has greater teleport, then it's time to use it constantly against a Miko.

[denthor]

Most Lawful types will accept a full surrender. Run up a whiterrible flag for speaking purposes ask said paladin detect on me.

LN same thing please hold a trial.

[Frosty]

But what if the law of the lands (or the law of their holy order) states: "death to all fiends!"

[GrayDeath]

Then its obviously horribly written (unless it defines what a "fiend is, and in that case please elaborate) and/or nongood (and likely nonGood as well) so probably not the kind of system anybody should surrender to.

But then again I am leaning towards CG myself, so....^^

[Lord Raziere]

Yet all the options Kelb presents are better than staying in the Lower Planes.

In The Lower Planes, the first rule is that no one trusts anyone.

The second is that Everyone is out for themselves. Everyone will do their best to screw you over for their gain, to the point where a demon will kill another just to be a little higher than the other. Or because your a devil, or because you ticked them off, or maybe because you violated an agreement you made 1000 years ago that you forgot, or because you took the last soul-candy in the bowl without asking, or because they don't like your face, or because you killed one of their slaves/pawns/servants, or because they don't like succubi, or because they think that all succubi should belong to them an if they can't have you no one can, or because they love killing and wish to make you their next piece of art. When your as evil as a demon, killing people is just a fact of life that is only a passing excuse away.

Now that your redeemed, its not as if you can ever go back, can you? Because despite all prejudice and difficulties its still better than living in the Lower Planes where if life is not being ended, its being cruelly tortured for the inhabitants amusement or being pointlessly fought over in an eternal war. Stay and you will only find pain and suffering.

Leave for the material plane and you will enjoy a life of forever hiding yourself from untrusting eyes that are NOT everywhere and everyone, unlike the Abyss. You will enjoy a world that while it probably kill you if it ever finds out who you really are, is probably more beautiful, more soft, and probably meet more kind and caring people than you ever will on the Lower Planes. You might only last a few months, you might last lifetimes, but hey at least your not one of those demons endlessly fighting and dying for no reason other than power or to serve someone stronger. You get to enjoy what you can, you may still have to hide, but its not as if everyone is out to kill you for every random evil reason under the sun, nor are all these powerful threats like wizards or paladins that can kill you and whatnot are particularly common or subtle.

(You can generally tell when 12th level adventurers are coming by the appearance of how heavily over-designed their weapons and armor are both magically and aesthetically, as well as their overconfident stride betraying their belief that they can take on literally anything and win. Other signs include going to inns, having various eccentric behaviors involving paranoid-ly poking at the ground with sticks, and solving things with fire.)

I mean as long you remain hidden and don't do anything stupid, you could prevent being searched by magic in the first place. Don't go near divine temples, wizard towers or castles containing important political figures or inns, don't make your home in a random bunch of ruins in the middle of nowhere, perhaps get a magic item to hide your alignment, and find a place where adventurers will never look for you, because paladins are adventurers. where would that be? We can rule out blacksmith, leatherworker, tailor, because those are professions that adventurers need for their equipment in some form or manner, we can rule out any libraries or academies because a wizard will eventually go there, farming because farmers are always the ones most in danger of all the little threats adventurers get called upon to defeat,.....the best place is probably.....a horse ranch. Why might you ask? Because by the time any adventurers are a threat to you, they probably have spells to conjure horses for them, a paladin will never go there because they have a celestial horse, and a wizard by these levels is probably just plain teleporting to far more important locations. While lower level adventurers don't even bother because they're going into cramped dungeons anyways. there is simply no reason for adventurers to seek out the use of any mundane horses.

[Arbane]

This plot sounds familiar... (https://leagueofimaginaryheroes.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/sepulchraves-tales-of-wyre/) (Most actually epic epic-level D&D game I've heard of.)

[Coidzor]

I'm pretty sure that a combination of Greater Teleport and being a succubus means that she can rapidly run a PR campaign that exposes Mr.-Now-LE-Babymurderer and paints a big target on his back for crusaders and adventurers.


1) for the purposes of this exercise, assume no one knows of any mortal ritual that can change her subtypes.

So don't go to mortals. Use a series of intermediaries from the inner and sideways planes and get in touch with someone out in the planes that can help. Assuming there's no planar metropolis where she can just meet with celestials openly and directly without being KOS.

[Segev]

Assuming there's no planar metropolis where she can just meet with celestials openly and directly without being KOS.

And let's be honest...Sigil is too cool to leave out of a D&D setting involving the planes.

[Frosty]

If something like Sigil exists, then it would be a good place to start yes. Who would she go to there to petition for help?

[Segev]

Probably the Signers (realizing self-image and all that), the Guvners (they'd at the least be interested in helping her avoid falling afoul of illegal executions), or the Harmonium (who're SUPPOSED to be the best kind of LG).

[Frosty]

I seem to remember the Harmonium trying to press gang the Nameless One into their organization...

[Coidzor]

the Harmonium (who're SUPPOSED to be the best kind of LG).

According to what source, other than themselves? :smallconfused:

[Segev]

According to what source, other than themselves? :smallconfused:

Planescape generally presents them that way. It's only been fan-based works where I've seen them acting more LN than LG. They are "hardheads" for a reason - they're stubborn and they don't take prevarication kindly. They do see blacks and whites. But efforts to be "white" are generally supposed to be taken well, with pointers and aid given to stay that way. Pointers may come with pointy sticks if there's reason to distrust, but they're definitely not shown in the printed works I've seen to be "kill first and ask questions later" sorts when not presented with an immediately hostile threat.

[Beneath]

Aren't the Harmonium responsible for a layer of Arcadia slipping into Mechanus? That's a pretty strong sign that institutionally they aren't even LN with good tendencies, they're outright LN or worse.

Also weren't the factions kicked out of Sigil in 3e canon or are we ignoring that because it sucks?

[Frosty]

I can't say. All of my knowledge about Sigil comes from Planescape Torment.

[Frosty]

I'm pretty sure that a combination of Greater Teleport and being a succubus means that she can rapidly run a PR campaign that exposes Mr.-Now-LE-Babymurderer and paints a big target on his back for crusaders and adventurers.
Yes, but who'd believe the words of a succubus over the words of the Inquisitor?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes, but who'd believe the words of a succubus over the words of the Inquisitor?

She could spread the incident whilst disguised and by fudging a few details. Doing so could, at least, neutralize the potential threat by making the whole incident such a confusing mess that everyone just dismisses the whole thing.

Propaganda war isn't a succubus class skill though :smalltongue:

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, but who'd believe the words of a succubus over the words of the Inquisitor?

People can turn on authorities a lot easier than you think. a lot of folk heroes that people in older time periods liked were hated by the nobility, and when it really came down to it, anyone who goes around attacking villages is considered a raiding pillaging jerk, anyone who goes around stealing stuff by force from villages and traveling merchants is a bandit, regardless of their noble or religious status and whether they are doing it for a good reason.

oh and not to mention the fact that when it really came down to it, food and stability to keep living was what the common people really wanted above all else. religion, feudal lords, those were all just tools to make that happen, if those didn't provide food or stability, they got rebelled against, peasant rebellions weren't an unheard of thing. That and authorities far away from the top authorities were often isolated and therefore the only ones in power, so what they say goes, so they could make whatever ruling they wanted and you couldn't do anything about it.

So if a lord decides that say, a guy who steals a loaf of bread gets branded a rapist unless they pay some big exorbitant fee to give them their brand of the actual crime they committed, no one can do anything about it. and when that guy gets exiled and find himself in the next town over where a similar noble lord does the same thing, people might figure "ey, maybe this guy branded a rapist just got a corrupt noble like we did and is just this rebel guy who stands up for the peasantfolk y'know? A lying brand y'know? thats what he says after all, and I don't like them noble lords" and shelter him.

Basically, people are capable of romanticizing any criminal or outlaw as an underdog fighting against a tyrannical regime. Whether such a narrative is true or not is up for debate.

Consequently you could make a romanticized religion where the demons are robin-hood/pirate/knight-errant/ronin/cowboys/wuxia/etc. rebelling against them tyrant angel nobles ruling over all reality. I mean, what has the Angels ever done for you, you've never met one, and these holy jerks that come by in their name seem really snobby uptight and judgmental about your village beliefs, screw them.

So if the nobility or the inquisitor coming by is an evil jerk, and the succubus isn't, the natural narrative to arise from the people won't be "oh this jerkish Inquisitor is just doing what needs to be done." No, they don't care, only the Inquisitor will ever spout that justification. the peasantry care for food, their village and everyone else in that order. They will think "oh hey this Succubus stranger is protecting us from this Inquisitor thats randomly burning us for being heretics, maybe SHE is the good guy! Maybe the Inquisitor is just spouting all that 'demons are evil' as a lie so that he controls us, maybe we were wrong to listen to him if he is killing us." that sort of deal.

Just remember: village-folk don't care about universal goodness. they care about their own little goodness that they actually have.

[stanprollyright]

Basically, people are capable of romanticizing any criminal or outlaw as an underdog fighting against a tyrannical regime. Whether such a narrative is true or not is up for debate.

Wonder where I could find a real world example of that...

[Lord Raziere]

Wonder where I could find a real world example of that...

In somebody else's shoes.

[neriractor]

people, people, we are all forgetting an important thing, commoners and experts will generally not have any ranks in knowledge the planes, even for arcanists the skill is not even close to first on the list. Most of the people she finds in hes succubus form will not even know she is a demon, they will most likely be surprised, when a weird red lady with horns and wings appears but I´ll be pretty damn surprised if the common folk went for the kill on sight, and once you have got the people´s help paladins and other more knowledgeable folk will be way easier to convince.

[Necroticplague]

Divine Minion template changes alignment subtypes to match that of the diety's alignment, so becoming incredibly devoted to some Good diety can swap your [Evil] subtype to a [Good] subtype. At that point, pretty much all standard forms of detection would reveal you to be some kind of Angel (which, you technically are now, under some definitions of it), so you should be pretty in the clear.

[Frosty]

people, people, we are all forgetting an important thing, commoners and experts will generally not have any ranks in knowledge the planes, even for arcanists the skill is not even close to first on the list. Most of the people she finds in hes succubus form will not even know she is a demon, they will most likely be surprised, when a weird red lady with horns and wings appears but I´ll be pretty damn surprised if the common folk went for the kill on sight, and once you have got the people´s help paladins and other more knowledgeable folk will be way easier to convince.
Can't they take 10 too at least think, "It's a FIEND of some sort!"

I mean, we as people don't have ranks in Knowledge (The planes) but we have heard folklore and stories, so we may be able to guess (correctly or not) that something is an evil being from the lower planes. I'm sure many tieflings have suffered from this ignorance however.

[Zanos]

people, people, we are all forgetting an important thing, commoners and experts will generally not have any ranks in knowledge the planes, even for arcanists the skill is not even close to first on the list. Most of the people she finds in hes succubus form will not even know she is a demon, they will most likely be surprised, when a weird red lady with horns and wings appears but I´ll be pretty damn surprised if the common folk went for the kill on sight, and once you have got the people´s help paladins and other more knowledgeable folk will be way easier to convince.
Knowledge(Planes) contains one of the widest swathes of creatures, and is pretty much necessary for any arcane conjurer from first level. It's probably behind concentration, spellcraft, and Knowledge(Arcana), but wizards get a decent chunk of skillpoints and it's definitely high on the list of good knowledge's.


Can't they take 10 too at least think, "It's a FIEND of some sort!"

I mean, we as people don't have ranks in Knowledge (The planes) but we have heard folklore and stories, so we may be able to guess (correctly or not) that something is an evil being from the lower planes. I'm sure many tieflings have suffered from this ignorance however.
The game isn't very specific in regards to what happens if you fail or can't make a knowledge check, although by RAW most people will fail to identify members of their own species. Since the lowest identification for creatures is 11, someone without ranks in knowledge skills doesn't know what any creatures are.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The game isn't very specific in regards to what happens if you fail or can't make a knowledge check, although by RAW most people will fail to identify members of their own species. Since the lowest identification for creatures is 11, someone without ranks in knowledge skills doesn't know what any creatures are.

It does, however, say that "common knowledge" is rated 10 or less. What a human, an elf, or an orc is would certainly fall into that category in any place where they're not fairly rare. Fiends are bad would come from every church that wasn't dedicated to evil and even they'd be preaching that fiends are dangerous. Telling a demon from a devil, much less identifying specific kind, is beyond most people though.

Just sayin'.

[Coidzor]

So, I must have missed this somewhere...

Why is she appearing to everyone as a fiend while she does this, now?

Did I miss some specification that her ability to take on other forms was broken or disabled by whatever lead to her alignment change?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, I must have missed this somewhere...

Why is she appearing to everyone as a fiend while she does this, now?

Did I miss some specification that her ability to take on other forms was broken or disabled by whatever lead to her alignment change?

Whether she does or does not hide her form is a choice. There are pros and cons to both, though I'd say the pros of hiding it outway the cons but it's not a certainty.

[animewatcha]

Is the taking out of a succubus worth 8400 gp for the greater good?

LG succubus DEMANDS they use a candle of invocation on them. In a put up or shut up in front of everyone.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation

There isn't any fooling the candle that I'm aware of.

[Frosty]

Maybe I'm just too tired, but how does the candle prove alignment?

[Calthropstu]

Maybe I'm just too tired, but how does the candle prove alignment?

You can gate in a creature of the same alignment if your alignment matches that of the candle.

[Echch]

You can gate in a creature of the same alignment if your alignment matches that of the candle.

Alternatively, you could UMD your alignment to any alignment depending on what creature you want to summon. It's just an overall great item.

[Segev]

Knowledge (appropriate category) is used to identify, scholastically and with certainty, the kind of creature you're examining. Disguises, obviously, can muddy this.

It is not, however, necessary to succeed on a knowledge check to jump to conclusions. "Bat wings and horns means demons" is a perfectly valid preconception which may not at all rely on a Knowledge check. It would, obviously, get you mistaking gargoyles and half-dragons as "demons," and probably means you couldn't tell the difference between a demon and a devil, but "that woman is a demon" is within the realm of identification. Whether you'd ID her as a succubus...that's another question. (Of course, "sexy demon = succubus" is also a somewhat reasonable conclusion to jump to, if there's background knowledge that there exists a kind of seduction demon known as a "succubus." But that might fall under "rolled well enough to ID the wrong thing, but not the right thing" territory. Gotta be careful with that. I would tend to phrase such results as, "Well, you know that there are seduction demons known as 'succubi' (singular: 'succubus'), and she looks like a sexy demon to you, but you're not able to eliminate other possibilities.")

[killem2]

I thought a paladin can detect evil and if the succubus is not radiating evil wouldn't a paladin need to step down

[neriractor]

seems fair, until you think that demons are outsiders, beings that literally live in another plane of existence and have every reason to work in secrecy, in a view from our side it is easy to think that every commoner is passingly familiar with what a demon is, but how about we change that for an inevitable or formian, is everyone going to see a giant ant or metal man and assume they are forces of raw chaos, sent to catch people violating universal laws and to conquer everything respectively or are they just going to believe them to be aberrations or mere objects that appeared out of nowhere for reasons they don´t understand.

[Frosty]

I thought a paladin can detect evil and if the succubus is not radiating evil wouldn't a paladin need to step down outsiders with an alignment subtype always always count as that alignment for the purposes of spells and other effects, even if their true alignment has changed to something else. It would mean that the succubus would detect as both Good and Evil at the same time.

[killem2]

outsiders with an alignment subtype always always count as that alignment for the purposes of spells and other effects, even if their true alignment has changed to something else. It would mean that the succubus would detect as both Good and Evil at the same time.

Fair enough, but roll with me on this. According to the SRD (3.5), if I took all the d6 rolls to determine the extra time it took to become a paladin on top of a starting age, I rolled 23d6:

and got:

Roll(23d6)+0:
5,1,3,3,6,3,6,5,3,1,3,4,3,5,6,5,5,1,4,1,3,5,1,+0
Total:82

I took the 82 and divided it by 7 (the number of starting races). And got like 11.71 years on average. You would think, with an average like that (1 year (human, half orc) to as much as 36 years (elf/gnome)) that the teachings of a paladin would have them question (not strike down) something so important like this.

I mean, if you were a lowly zealot like an Inquisitor maybe I'd understand.

But this is a Paladin. The strong, but wise mortal incarnate of their God. Lets forget all the other types of Paladins that could be out there through various archetypes/templates/class changes and we stick with strictly the Lawful Good Paladin, the Lawful side of this paladin should be investigating very thoroughly on what he or she should do. Perhaps even commune with their God for advice.


This is all based on, it triggering a Good Reading, just as much as it does an Evil one.

Not to mention, a Paladin has Diplomacy as a class skill.

I don't really have a solid answer for you OP, but if I were the DM, I would not handle this with swift justice. Not with how much a paladin respects his or her code of conduct. I do not see Paladins as walking automatons but rather their God's right and left hand on the balance scale.

[Kelb_Panthera]

-snip-

Small hiccup; paladins cannot detect good, only evil.

I don't disagree that imprudent paladins have an unfortunate habit of falling from grace well before retirement but not all paladins are prudent. Unless an allied cleric casts detect good and relays his findings or she finds herself near a brazier of alignment revealing (stronghold builders guidebook) keyed to good, a paladin only has word of her behavior related by other characters and her own word to go on for determining her alignment.

[Frosty]

But this is a Paladin. The strong, but wise mortal incarnate of their God.
Also, lots of paladins dump Wisdom, especially in Pathfinder.

[killem2]

Can I see the rule that says you have to keep your evil subtype

[hamishspence]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#evilSubtype


Evil Subtype
A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype.
While there's magical ways to replace it with another (a ritual in Savage Species)- it's possible for it to have not been removed yet when meeting the paladin. Maybe the ritual is hard to find and not widely known.

[killem2]

I kind of see some of this on the Succubus for stating her case. I do feel like Diplomacy should be the go to option here.

They have a check of Diplomacy +19!

I'm guessing the Average Paladin with gear will probably end up rocking around a +7 from Charisma. So a DC at worst of 32.

If I were this succubus I would prefer to be in presence of the church and clergy I am affiliated with. As a DM I would grant a circumstance bonus of +2. Then, I would allow the other clergy members around her to aid her in this diplomacy check. I would also ask the Clergy to confront the Paladin ahead of time so maybe he might have a starting attitude of Indifferent.

[Frosty]

If the succubus is already affiliated and accepted by a birch, the problems are much less severe. It is the initial effort of trying to gain acceptance with do-gooders that are the most dangerous.

[killem2]

If the succubus is already affiliated and accepted by a birch, the problems are much less severe. It is the initial effort of trying to gain acceptance with do-gooders that are the most dangerous.

I suppose, I would not be looking to a paladin for permission to an entire hierarchy of a church. I see them as the living breathing incarnate of their god on the material plane. They uphold the statues not bend or create them.

Then again, any class of any type can be a "priest" of religion. I would also willingly be shackled to prevent teleportation. A leap of faith or olive branch.

But before you even do that, I would probably start at the grassroot level. Helping the poor, the hungry, and so on.

[GrayDeath]

But if the Succubus has been accepted by a birch, doesn't that mean she`s converted to a tree-hugging elven Sect, and should hence be burned at the (preferably birch) stake? ^^


Jokes aside, I`d say it heavily depends on the kind of paladin.

A "Real" one, ergo still full of idealism and valuing the Good over all will very likely hear her out, especially if she presents her point while having the support of a real religion.

A Mikodin will simply smite, then smite some more.

[hamishspence]

But before you even do that, I would probably start at the grassroot level. Helping the poor, the hungry, and so on.

Which is exactly what the succubus in the thread that inspired this thread, appeared to be doing.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508983-Paladin-meeting-good-succubus

Result - lots of "she shouldn't be doing that - demons that come after her, will hit the town as well"

Along with "she's not doing enough good there - she should be fighting on the frontline of the War Against Evil instead"

[killem2]

Which is exactly what the succubus in the thread that inspired this thread, appeared to be doing.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508983-Paladin-meeting-good-succubus

Result - lots of "she shouldn't be doing that - demons that come after her, will hit the town as well"

Along with "she's not doing enough good there - she should be fighting on the frontline of the War Against Evil instead"

Hmm, well I don't think the lowest on the clergy totem pole gets to fight in the holy wars.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which is exactly what the succubus in the thread that inspired this thread, appeared to be doing.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508983-Paladin-meeting-good-succubus

Result - lots of "she shouldn't be doing that - demons that come after her, will hit the town as well"

Along with "she's not doing enough good there - she should be fighting on the frontline of the War Against Evil instead"

Wait, somebody in that thread suggested demons would come after her? That doesn't make any sense.

[Zanos]

Wait, somebody in that thread suggested demons would come after her? That doesn't make any sense.
Retribution for turning Good, I guess? I don't really see why Demons would care much about someone who takes themselves out of the competition. Devils would be a totally different story if one of their own turned to Good, though.

I mean, realistically a Good Succubus would turn herself over to the nearest church for prompt destruction so that she doesn't fall back to her ways and her physical makeup does not continue to corrupt the material plane, but as I displayed in the other thread I have a pretty hardline stance with regard to outsiders.

[zergling.exe]

Wait, somebody in that thread suggested demons would come after her? That doesn't make any sense.

She's an unaffiliated bundle of delicious CE souls. Of course some demon is going to come after her. She has no superior to enact retribution for breaking their toy.

[Frosty]

Wait, somebody in that thread suggested demons would come after her? That doesn't make any sense.
Of course demons would come after her. In Pathfinder, it's even official canon in an adventure path when something like this happened. They want her dead dead dead or perhaps re-corrupted.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Retribution for turning Good, I guess? I don't really see why Demons would care much about someone who takes themselves out of the competition. Devils would be a totally different story if one of their own turned to Good, though.

I mean, realistically a Good Succubus should turn herself over to the nearest church for prompt destruction so that she doesn't fall back to her ways and her physical makeup does not continue to corrupt the material plane, but as I displayed in the other thread I have a pretty hardline stance with regard to outsiders.

FTFY.

Even fiends want to avoid death, generally. Otherwise I agree with what you've said there with the caveat that the SS rituals for becoming another creature altogether exist and are worth consideration.

[hamishspence]

Wait, somebody in that thread suggested demons would come after her? That doesn't make any sense.

The first mention:


The point is, there are ways to verify her intent. And a reformed demon is a BIG DEAL. If it's true, she is a beacon of hope for many others.

Not for other demons. If she really existed they'd burn her at the stake. I know I know, fire immunity. But they would find a way.
Because a good demon would be a total insult to their way of life and they'd find a way to stamp it out.

Well yea, all the other demons will be tying to kill her to capture her to reconvert her to evil. That's what makes this redemption attempt even more noble (and more difficult)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Of course demons would come after her. In Pathfinder, it's even official canon in an adventure path when something like this happened. They want her dead dead dead or perhaps re-corrupted.

Don't know about PF but in 3.5 demons are -chaotic- with a capital C. They wouldn't give a flying crap what some other demon did as long as it didn't affect their own plans unless they were part of a demonic hierarchy -and- had been commanded to do so by a stronger demon or in one's name. Perhaps -a- demon or even a handful might seek to use her destruction as a way of courting that more powerful demon's favor. Generally though, just absolutely no ****s would be given. The abyss is not baator. No one is owed any more allegience than they can force out of weaker creatures by force and/or intimidation.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The first mention:

Huh. Not sure how I missed that. It's a bit nonsensical though, as I described in the post above this one.

[hamishspence]

Regarding the aforementioned Savage Species rituals - the character has to build up enough goodwill first, for a cleric to be prepared to spend the money and XP casting the ritual.

And "building goodwill" has to start somewhere.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Regarding the aforementioned Savage Species rituals - the character has to build up enough goodwill first, for a cleric to be prepared to spend the money and XP casting the ritual.

And "building goodwill" has to start somewhere.

I'd have to check SS again but is there any reason a crap-ton of cash and a wizard can't garner the same effect? I know, at the very least, that the wish ritual basically requires a wizard or sorcerer. 28,825gp and locating one who won't just banish you to keep the scroll for himself is a hell of a tall order but it's an option.

[Frosty]

Don't know about PF but in 3.5 demons are -chaotic- with a capital C. They wouldn't give a flying crap what some other demon did as long as it didn't affect their own plans unless they were part of a demonic hierarchy -and- had been commanded to do so by a stronger demon or in one's name. Perhaps -a- demon or even a handful might seek to use her destruction as a way of courting that more powerful demon's favor. Generally though, just absolutely no ****s would be given. The abyss is not baator. No one is owed any more allegience than they can force out of weaker creatures by force and/or intimidation.

I disagree. I think they would hate the demonic heretic. It's just how I see them.

[killem2]

I disagree. I think they would hate the demonic heretic. It's just how I see them.
To be fair I'm pretty sure the only people who are going to care for the people in charge I don't think any lower-ranking demon or devil is going to take any action against them single demon unless their Superior tells them to.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I disagree. I think they would hate the demonic heretic. It's just how I see them.

They're demons. They hate basically everything that isn't themselves unless it's in horrific torment (physical or mental, preferably both) and even then it just upgrades from hate to amusement and only rarely reaches the point of liking it in the same way one likes an amusing TV program; that is, it's great until it stops being fun, then, "screw it. Moving on."

A "heretic" requires a doctrine to offend against. That's not something demons as a whole have. It's anathema to their very nature as creatures of chaos.

[Frosty]

Well it's immediate superior at least might care and want to do something about it.

[Coidzor]

Demons aren't one of those groups that form a real bloc, though, so while undoubtedly there would be some that might care or would definitely care, there would be still more that couldn't give two figs and find something else much more interesting/engaging.

[hamishspence]

I'd have to check SS again but is there any reason a crap-ton of cash and a wizard can't garner the same effect?

I was thinking more of the Rituals of Subtype Change, where as I recall the new subtype needs to be the domain of the cleric casting the ritual, and it's a cleric-only ritual (so - "change subtype to [Good]" required cleric and required cleric to have chosen Good domain).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well it's immediate superior at least might care and want to do something about it.

If it has one. That's far from guaranteed. It's not even particularly close to "likely."

Even then, succubi are consumate deceivers. It could be a -long- while before that superior even finds out he's been abandoned, much less that she went good, and when he does it's going to be a lot more about being betrayed in fact by the abandonment rather than principle over her turning good.

There are a number of fiends working under the demon princes in something loosely resembling a hierarchy but this is the exception rather than the rule and is driven as much by fear of the machine turning on any individual than anything resembling a sense of loyalty to peers within the organization.

[hamishspence]

Malcanthet, Demon Queen of Succubi - would be the head of them all.

In her Demonomicon entry in Dragon magazine, it's the existence of redeemed succubi, that make her feel the closest thing possible to sadness, that she can feel.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Malcanthet, Demon Queen of Succubi - would be the head of them all.

In her Demonomicon entry in Dragon magazine, it's the existence of redeemed succubi, that make her feel the closest thing possible to sadness, that she can feel.

I rather suspect that "Queen of Succubi" is more of a self-styled title rather than anything officially recognized by even the majority of succubi. Though I suppose she might send a recovery unit out if she does, somehow, get word of a succubus that's turned from evil.

[hamishspence]

Though I suppose she might send a recovery unit out if she does, somehow, get word of a succubus that's turned from evil.

In the Savage Tide Dungeon Magazine Adventure path, one of the quests (in order to ensure her assistance) is to deliver a senior liltitu back to her court who has fled it (that one wasn't nonevil though - just renegade)- so it might be adventurers that she sends out.

Malcanthet is by far the most powerful, being a Demon Lord and controlling an Abyssal layer. She's also one of the oldest. Hence her influence over them.

[Elkad]

Killing a paladin is an evil act...

Wait, what?

It's self-defense. Self-defense is not evil. The fact that the Paladin attacking you is Lawful Good changes that not one whit.

It's still a wrongful attack on you, and you have every right to defend yourself. Whether he attacked you because you radiate Evil despite being Good, or a bad guy stuck an evil artifact in your pocket which confused the Paladin, or his High Priest is secretly evil and sent him on a false mission to kill an innocent, or he just accidentally misread the search warrant and smashed into the wrong house, none of that matters.

What matters is the Paladin is wrong and you are right.

[Frosty]

Although it'd be Good to successfully end the fight without killing the paladin.

[Lord Raziere]

Wait, what?

It's self-defense. Self-defense is not evil. The fact that the Paladin attack is Good changes that not one whit.

It's still a wrongful attack on you, and you have every right to defend yourself. Whether he attacked you because you radiate Evil despite being Good, or a bad guy stuck an evil artifact in your pocket which confused the Paladin, or his High Priest is secretly evil and sent him on a false mission to kill an innocent, or he just accidentally misread the search warrant and smashed into the wrong house, none of that matters.

What matters is the Paladin is wrong and you are right.

Yeah but even if your right, killing the Paladin is still the wrong choice. The other paladins won't see it as self-defense. They will just see a paladin dying valiantly against a demon. Assuming the most cynical outcome of killing a paladin, it will only cause more paladins to be sent to kill you, more people to be endangered and solving nothing. By not killing the paladin, you are closer to proving you are good and communicating that you don't want to kill people through your actions. The most cynical outcome of not killing the paladin and escaping is them assuming that your a particularly cowardly and weak demon and therefore not much of a threat but pursuing you with the same strength, consistently not killing them communicates to them a particularly consistent and odd behavior for a demon that they will notice, particularly if you consistently move away from innocents so that they aren't caught in the fight. Its more important to Good that innocents be saved and that conflict is stopped than one man is killed for self-defense. And the long term way of doing that is to communicate that by only incapacitating the paladin at worst. Actions speak louder than words and if you kill the paladin, that will only miscommunicate what you want as being just another demon.

Killing the paladin in self-defense is plausible for a Neutral Succubus though, but Neutral is a finer line to walk for demons than most.

[Segev]

Let's be honest, here. The likely outcome of a succubus forced to fight a paladin for her life who doesn't want to kill the paladin is...that she doesn't kill him. Her most effective weapons are Charm effects (which the Paladin might fail saves against; unlikely, but he might) and her level-draining embrace/kiss. If she can survive him for a round or two, he'll swiftly be level-drained to incapacity, at least wrt ability to hurt her seriously (and especially wrt his saves vs. her charms!).

At which point she subdues him and ... has all the time in the world to convince him of her goodness. Possibly with more kisses.

Oh, heck yes, this looks bad. And his word'll be useless in convincing his fellows, since they'll see him as a mind-addled victim of her deceitful seductive powers (and...well...they're at least partially right). But as long as she doesn't use her wiles to convince him to do anything untoward that he wouldn't do otherwise (except, you know, not kill her), she isn't actually committing evil.

[Frosty]

At level 8 a PF paladin is immune to charm.

Also, since it looks so bad, it'll be counter productive to convincing others that she is redeemed.

[Segev]

At level 8 a PF paladin is immune to charm.

Also, since it looks so bad, it'll be counter productive to convincing others that she is redeemed.

Hm. I forget; does PF's level drain rule have you lose class features? If so, that handles the immunity to charm. If not, well, this actually helps. Now she renders him helpless against her, physically, and then nurses him back to health, letting him go when she's sure he won't hurt her.

[Frosty]

You think the paladin will lose in a grapple against the succubus? Remember he can still attack her with any one handed weapon. Full-attack, even. He doesn't need to win a grapple check first.

[exelsisxax]

Hm. I forget; does PF's level drain rule have you lose class features? If so, that handles the immunity to charm. If not, well, this actually helps. Now she renders him helpless against her, physically, and then nurses him back to health, letting him go when she's sure he won't hurt her.

Yandebus? Succudere? That paladin doesn't know what's coming for him. Or, possibly, her.

[Lord Raziere]

At level 8 a PF paladin is immune to charm.

Also, since it looks so bad, it'll be counter productive to convincing others that she is redeemed.

An assumption that relies on the Succubus behaving as stereotypically as possible, and being stupid enough to NOT ESCAPE. When the Succubus is redeemed and therefore......shouldn't be behaving stereotypically at all.

I mean lets think about this:
"Hm, my evil species has a reputation for seducing and mind controlling people through our wiles and magic. I have just subdued this paladin trying to kill me, and if I want to survive being good I have to make as good an impression as possible. What should I do?.......HERP-A-DERP! LETS KISS!"

What is wrong with this picture? Its not the appearance of something bad, its that she thought it was a good idea at all considering the reputation and how likely it would lead to being just as bad as killing him. Again, the best decision would be to escape wherever you are and leave him there alive. take him to someone who can heal him for you if your not going to run and y'know, not hover around him?

[Segev]

An assumption that relies on the Succubus behaving as stereotypically as possible, and being stupid enough to NOT ESCAPE. When the Succubus is redeemed and therefore......shouldn't be behaving stereotypically at all.

I mean lets think about this:
"Hm, my evil species has a reputation for seducing and mind controlling people through our wiles and magic. I have just subdued this paladin trying to kill me, and if I want to survive being good I have to make as good an impression as possible. What should I do?.......HERP-A-DERP! LETS KISS!"

What is wrong with this picture? Its not the appearance of something bad, its that she thought it was a good idea at all considering the reputation and how likely it would lead to being just as bad as killing him. Again, the best decision would be to escape wherever you are and leave him there alive. take him to someone who can heal him for you if your not going to run and y'know, not hover around him?

This is if she's forced to fight him for some reason. It is examining the case where it was assumed she already was cornered.

[Frosty]

If she is cornered, trying to grapple with the full-BaB class with insane saves is probably not a winning strategy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If she is cornered, trying to grapple with the full-BaB class with insane saves is probably not a winning strategy.

The succubus is full BAB, herself, has all good saves and decent stats, and has little else in the way of good options if she's already been cut-off from escape.

[zergling.exe]

Regarding the aforementioned Savage Species rituals - the character has to build up enough goodwill first, for a cleric to be prepared to spend the money and XP casting the ritual.

And "building goodwill" has to start somewhere.

Well, the ritual automatically succeeds whether or not the save is passed. A successful save means you are now a good succubus. A failed save means you are now a dead succubus. It's win-win for the cleric to do it.

[Frosty]

The succubus is full BAB, herself, has all good saves and decent stats, and has little else in the way of good options if she's already been cut-off from escape. Diplomacy? :smalltongue: