Is the APG summoner considered to be obsolete and replaced by unchained?

[Da Beast]

I know that the other unchained classes are considered to be alternatives and players can still play the regular version of monk or barbarian (or rogue if they hate themselves) if the wish too, but I've heard that the original summoner is no longer allowed in pathfinder society with the unchained version being an official, more balanced replacement. I'm starting a new campaign this weekend and one of my players is considering playing a summoner. Should I tell him he has to use the unchained version or is the balance close enough to let him play whichever? I should say that I consider this player to be the only competent optimizer in the group so I'm a little concerned that he could use the regular summoner to build some sort of pouncing, multiattacking monstrosity of an eidolon at level 1.

[Firest Kathon]

The unchained summoner is quite a bit more reined in considering the power and options. It is only considered the replacement for the normal summoner in Pathfinder Society, outside it is simply an alternative. You as GM can however rule that only the unchained summoner is allowed in your campaign, especially if you are concerned about optimization.

[Coretron03]

The unchained summoner was made purely to nerf the summoner/a alternate summoner experince with eildions with alignments. The normal summoner could overshine other melee combatants and they have really good spell casting plus some summons to fall back on. If you feel like he might eant to overshadow other people then unchained is better as it reduces the eildions power and lowers the summoners spellcasting potential by doing stuff like making hast a 3rd level spell. Summoners are powerful stuff though just in general and even a unchained summoner is still better then other non-casters, but depends on the player really.

[Frosty]

Unchained summoner is boring to me outside of niche builds. I play a summoner when I want to customize my companion exactly the way I want. Unchained doesn't let me do that.

[Kurald Galain]

I've heard that the original summoner is no longer allowed in pathfinder society with the unchained version being an official, more balanced replacement.

Precisely.

U-rogue, u-barb, and u-monk are more balanced replacements for classes that were widely seen as the weakest in the game. U-summoner is a more balanced replacement for a class widely seen as overpowered.

So yes, if you want to rein in a known min/maxer, give him the u-summoner. And be aware that that might not actually stop him from upstaging the rest of the party anyway.

[stanprollyright]

I know that the other unchained classes are considered to be alternatives and players can still play the regular version of monk or barbarian (or rogue if they hate themselves) if the wish too, but I've heard that the original summoner is no longer allowed in pathfinder society with the unchained version being an official, more balanced replacement. I'm starting a new campaign this weekend and one of my players is considering playing a summoner. Should I tell him he has to use the unchained version or is the balance close enough to let him play whichever? I should say that I consider this player to be the only competent optimizer in the group so I'm a little concerned that he could use the regular summoner to build some sort of pouncing, multiattacking monstrosity of an eidolon at level 1.

If he's the only optimizer in your party, definitely force him to use Unchained. Or even ban him from summoner altogether, as it's kinda OP regardless and is basically an optimizer's playground. Kinda harsh, I admit, but if your player is known to outshine others, this class will be your worst nightmare. I have a self-imposed ban on Summoners and Tier 1 classes for myself to avoid outshining my party all the time. :smallcool:

[khadgar567]

you know summoners main problem is it didnt have much option for specialization optimaziton there is big guy, centipede killer and on the lowest usefullness every energy immune biped

[Ualaa]

It depends on the power level of the group in question.

The basic idea is that a normal (not unchained) Summoner is starting at a higher power level than a lot of classes.
So if we have an optimization scale, maybe they're a 65 out of 100.
While a lot of classes are say 20 out of 100, without any or with very minimal optimization.

Given a competent group, that is optimizing for stronger characters...
All of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes should easily match, and probably surpass, a Summoner.
Depending on what you want to do, the Path of War melee guys should be superior to a Synthesist Summoner.

A lot of groups would just ban Synthesist and Master Summoner, and then say the class is fine.

[stanprollyright]

Given a competent group, that is optimizing for stronger characters...
All of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes should easily match, and probably surpass, a Summoner.
Depending on what you want to do, the Path of War melee guys should be superior to a Synthesist Summoner.

A lot of groups would just ban Synthesist and Master Summoner, and then say the class is fine.

By my read, this player is the only one concerned with optimization, implying the rest of the party is not optimized.

The problem with the summoner isn't so much that it's more powerful than tier 1 and 2, it's that he class is a perfect storm of thunder-stealing; your monster can rival the fighter or the rogue or both, while you have a better version of one of the tier 1s' best tricks, on top of a solid chassis, a great spell list, single attribute focus on charisma, so you can even be a face if you want to. None of these things are dependent on each other, either. You can outshine everyone at the same time. You always have at least 2 turns.

[The Insanity]

How can something get obsoleted by an inferior version of it?

[Kurald Galain]

How can something get obsoleted by an inferior version of it?

Because to its party members and GM, a more balanced class is preferable over an unbalanced class. This fits the definition of the word (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsolescence).

[Manyasone]

Regardless of what you choose, I've heard that you better use the Unchained version of the spell list, for balance sake

[Psyren]

The Unchained one is fine and the nerfs were needed. You don't really HAVE to force your player to use Unchained (and really, like Kurald said - if they're determined to break the game they will do so with anything you give them.) But I would say the Unchained one is easier to GM for. It also gives the Eidolon a bit more agency, so if the player is trying to power trip or treating it like an automaton instead of a sapient being, the base that they choose gives you a bit more authority to step in and reprimand them in-universe, or RP a more antagonistic relationship to nudge them back on the right path.