Source of the Arcane?

[Spectre9000]

I'm coming up with a character concept, but I'm a little stuck on specifics. I've been researching D&D lore and it seems the Weave is responsible for all magic in the forgotten realms and is created and managed by Mystra. I can't find a clear source for magic outside of the forgotten realms though. Does the Weave still exist, or just what is the source of magic outside of FR?

[MinotaurWarrior]

Generally speaking, yes, the weave exists everywhere, beyond even the prime material. This is why magic can do things like plane shift, and why wizards aren't just totally useless on other planes. However, exactly how this worked beyond the prime material differed from edition to edition. Also, there's something to be said about the idea that "Ravenloft in a crystal sphere" is a different setting from "Ravenloft as intended" and that you should take all this cosmology stuff with a big grain of salt outside of Toril.

[Millstone85]

The way I read page 205 of the PHB, the Weave may only be named as such in the Forgotten Realms but it is the default model for magic in this edition.

Even divine magic, with divine beings or forces easing one's access to the Weave.

[M Placeholder]

I'm coming up with a character concept, but I'm a little stuck on specifics. I've been researching D&D lore and it seems the Weave is responsible for all magic in the forgotten realms and is created and managed by Mystra. I can't find a clear source for magic outside of the forgotten realms though. Does the Weave still exist, or just what is the source of magic outside of FR?

For the Forgotten Realms for 3rd edition not all Arcane Magic is thanks to the weave on Toril. The Goddess of Loss, Shar, maintains the Shadow Weave for her worshippers, and its independent of the one maintained by the various Mystras. If there is a dead magic zone thanks to the weave torn, a mage (generally evil) that uses the Shadow Weave can cast his spells no problem. Guess that's gone now.

As for other worlds, Krynn (Dragonlance) has the three Gods of Magic and the 3 moons and their cycles affecting the use. All Wizards use the magic thanks to either Solinari (good), Lutinari (indifferent- the one that Rastlin Majare gets his power from - most of the time) and Nuitari (bad). Sorcerers on that world use the magic left over from the creation of Krynn.

Athas (DARK SUN) has arcane magic needing life force to power it, mostly from plant life (which is why that world has been ravaged). Arcane Magic users there are as a result, generally pretty unpopular, and with the process of defiling (which destroys plant life to power spells) being more powerful and convenient than preserving (taking only what you need and not destroying life), most arcane magic users on that world are pretty unpleasant. The Veiled Alliance works to protect Preserver Wizards, but as per ther setting, they have to take harsh measures to survive. In all of the major cities, only Tyr after the overthrow of Kalak is preserving magic allowed, and even then there is the fear of arcane magic that most of the population still has.

If you are using your own setting, it doesn't have to be "Weave or GtFO".

[Spectre9000]

So, if I were to use the sage background, and the question posed by a dead colleague is "What power lies beyond the weave?", would that be idiotic?

The character has lost a lot of people and views mortalkind as intentionally flawed by design of the gods. This leads to a great dislike of all gods save Boccob, whom this character reveres, for his gift of arcane power to mortalkind. He also dislikes Mystra as, even though she mends the weave, she stops mortals from gaining too much arcane power. He seeks power greater than what even the weave has granted in an effort to bestow the divine nature of the gods unto mortalkind to end death as mortals experience it.

[Millstone85]

"What power lies beyond the weave?"http://www.giantitp.com/Images/CafePress2013/Psionics.png

[Spectre9000]

I'd love to use the Order of the Knife Mystic from this Homebrew (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2bXgsHg7PtJNEdpNHBVRDVOXzA/view) continuation of the Mystic, but dunno how balanced it is, or how accepting DMs might be of it. Especially as they're about to butcher the awesomeness of the class by splitting it up into archetypes for other classes.

[DizzyWood]

So, if I were to use the sage background, and the question posed by a dead colleague is "What power lies beyond the weave?", would that be idiotic?

The character has lost a lot of people and views mortalkind as intentionally flawed by design of the gods. This leads to a great dislike of all gods save Boccob, whom this character reveres, for his gift of arcane power to mortalkind. He also dislikes Mystra as, even though she mends the weave, she stops mortals from gaining too much arcane power. He seeks power greater than what even the weave has granted in an effort to bestow the divine nature of the gods unto mortalkind to end death as mortals experience it.

This is great. If I remember correctly (and I probably don't but I Could) at one point there were 10th and 11th lvl spells. When Karsus (sp?) killed the old goddess of magic (Mystryel or something) all magic in the FR failed for a while. Then Mystra 1 became the goddess of magic she eliminated access to those more powerful spells. Mystra 2 and 2.5 kept this a thing. So that implies there is more power for mortals to have out there somewhere! Cool lore based idea.

[Millstone85]

I guess another answer would be that beyond the Weave lies the "raw magic" that page 205 of the PHB describes as "locked away and inaccessible" without the Weave.

It is probably something that mages, and perhaps the gods themselves, just can't directly manipulate. But if the goddess Shar was able to knit her own version of the Weave for her followers, then your character might have the mad dream of doing the same for himself.

And if I were DMing, I would be tempted to say that it is exactly what psions do. They modify their mental, spiritual and bodily aura to make it their own personal weave, free of the limits (and on Athas or during the Spellplague, the corruption) of the global Weave. A possible downside is that they are basically trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Naanomi]

This is a planescape answer:

All creatures have a limited ability to influence the world around them through thought and belief, its part of the structure of reality everywhere. That ability can be honed in different ways... psionics is probably the most direct way (in forgotten realms they define it as 'building your own weave'), but magic instead uses that power to draw upon and shape extra-planar energies to create magical effects, especially (but not exclusively) mixing positive and negative energy.

Some creatures do it instinctively (dragons, sorcerers, fey), some rely on an external presence to shape the energy and just act as a 'gate' for the energy (clerics, druids, maybe warlocks), but most learn a variety of 'tricks' developed from many sources to make it all work (wizards). A small handful of beings may use other methods as well by their strange or unnatural natures (mostly abberations).

Access to those extraplanar energies may have problems on different places. Dead magic zones or wild magic zones exist because because the barriers between the worlds are thick or unstable. In the Forgotten Realms, the Gods (mostly Mystra) maintain the weave to act as an intermediary to access those energies. Athas (Darksun) has barriers between the other planes and itself so the energies that make it through are weak and require suplementation (from life energy usually) to function. But outside of specific places, the general rule in the multiverse is more 'open access'

[DizzyWood]

This is a very interesting topic to think about. I think it could be a great plot hook for a campaign.

[Millstone85]

in forgotten realms they define it as 'building your own weave'So that was canon in Spelljammer's Realmspace? Cool, it looks like I am starting to understand psionics!

A problem I had with psions is that I thought sorcerers had the whole inner power thing covered already. But what sorcerers actually have is a strong intuitive connection to the Weave.


This is a very interesting topic to think about. I think it could be a great plot hook for a campaign.I agree.

[Naanomi]

A problem I had with psions is that I thought sorcerers had the whole inner power thing covered already.
Funny, as an old edition player; the problem I had with sorcerers was that psions had the whole inner power thing covered :smallwink:

Whether or not psionic users actually 'build their own weave' on FR or just bypass the system through practiced force of will is actually a contention in Lore, with in-game characters debating the specifics.

In any case, psionics bypass the weave and are unaffected by effects that rely on it (or on access to 'planar energies' in general like Darksun). There are some effects that shut down psionics and magic equally; things that stabilize reality so that will cannot effect it at all... the most prominent being proximety to the Spire in the Outlands (which also shuts down some chemical reactions!) and a few artifacts

[Millstone85]

I can't believe I didn't mention this earlier, since it is part of the shtick of a character I am playing, but wild/infectious magic like the Spellplague is itself a power that goes beyond the limits of the normal Weave.


Funny, as an old edition player; the problem I had with sorcerers was that psions had the whole inner power thing covered :smallwink:And which fluff do you prefer now? Looking at the illustration for the 5e sorcerer, all I can think is ♪ Let'em burn, let'em burn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7FE6t_iL1g)! ♪


Whether or not psionic users actually 'build their own weave' on FR or just bypass the system through practiced force of will is actually a contention in Lore, with in-game characters debating the specifics.That's smart. "Build their own weave" is more appealing to me, but others might really be looking for the "It is not magic" flavor.