Total War: Warhammer!

[xroads]

Total War: Warhammer is my current obsession. Who else is playing this? If so, what is your favorite faction/legendary lord combination?

Personally, I’m having a lot of fun playing as the Empire with Balthasar Gelt as my legendary. Nothing like the smell of enemy armor magically rusting away in the morning at the will of Lord Gelt. :smallbiggrin:

[Ailurus]

I've been having quite a bit of fun with it as well. Difficult for me to rank the factions, though, as I really like most of them.

My favorite campaign run was with Belegar and Clan Angrund.

Tilea got aggressive with me early, and and having to blot both them and Skarsnik out of the Book meant it took a me a while to get out to Karak Eight Peaks. As the dwarf clans in the badlands were slowly losing to the Greenskins as well, I had to bail them out as well after I got to the Peaks. This meant the humans had no support when the Norscans and Chaos arrived, and by the time I got an army up there Kislev was erased and about 2/3 of the Empire was in ashes. So, when Archaon finally showed up, the closest civilized lands were Karak Ungor and Karak Khadrin which I'd settled. So Belegar and a Runelord got to lead their armies in a game of cat and mouse against four Chaos Doomstacks until my Dawi conclusively proved that having lots of dwarven cannons is superior to being the Everchosen. Of course, even after I pounded Grimgor into the ground, restored the Dawi to their former glory and saved the whole world from the End Times, Thorgrim still refused to confederate surrender the High Kingship to me, so he had to go in the Book as well....


I've probably spent the most time with Empire, and really like their versatility (and Hellfire Rockets ftw). Franz is my favorite starting lord. I like the flavor and model of Gelt but in practice the only advantage he seems to have is the initial mortar - plus, he's relatively easy to get since I'll always build the magic college anyway. My recruiting order is usually Franz -> Whichever generic Lord has the best traits around turn 5 -> Volkmar -> Gelt.

Beastmen and Bretonnia I've fooled around with a little bit, and they're both relatively interesting. Really looking forward to Bretonnia arriving to the Grand Campaign in February, as they're my favorite TT faction. Similarly, while I'm only a short way into a Wurzzag campaign it's been entertaining so far.

Not 100% settled on the Wood Elves yet, as I've only spent time on their mini campaign feeling them out, but I like them so far. No artillery is sad, but it's forcing me to diversify my tactics some which is fun. My largest concern is how they'll perform in siege fights - both due to lacking walls to slow down AI raiding parties and lacking the ability to take down walls/towers themselves.

Vamps and Chaos are the two I like the least. The idea of the Vamps and fighting against them is fun, but I just can't stomach driving a melee-only army long-term. And for Chaos, well, if I feel like burning down the world Beastmen just seem like they're more flexible and have better campaign mechanics.

[LCP]

It's ace, I'm addicted.

Favourite faction so far probably Dwarfs. Favourite legendary lord, probably Belegar? Very challenging start position but the ethereal heroes are very strong and fix one of the most frustrating things about a regular dwarf playthrough (the impossibility of levelling up your agents when goblin big bosses will just stab them every time they respawn). I've played through every faction's grand campaign though and they were all fun. The only one I'd really criticise is the Warriors of Chaos campaign - there's a lot of busywork in sacking/razing settlements, and the high value of your troops seems to mean that once you get going with a full-stack horde 99% of your battles will be sieges, since AI armies just run away. Still found my Archaon playthrough quite fun despite all that.

I'm also finding the multiplayer pretty engaging.

[boomwolf]

I want to love it, I really do.
. But it costs way too much to get with the expansions, and the game isn't even done yet! (high and dark elves, and skaven missing, britonia is half baked, chaos not fully fledged, etc)

I suspect the "full" game, with all factions proper, will cost around 200$,and that's just too much for me, despite how good it looks.

[LCP]

The first game is only meant to represent the Old World - High Elves and Dark Elves aren't part of the intended scope. They're coming along with the second title in the trilogy (as well as Lizardmen by all accounts). And the completed Bretonnia are coming free in the new year.

The thing to remember though is that the stuff in the DLCs is added to the game whether you buy them or not - so if your favourite faction is e.g. Greenskins, you can buy just the base game and you'll still be able to fight wood elves, beastmen etc. as much as you like. It's only if you want to play as them that you need to buy that specific DLC. And to be honest with just the four factions in the base game I've already found it has much more replayability than the last historical title I played (which was admittedly Medieval 2 so I may have missed out on some innovations in between).

[DraPrime]

How does this game compare to say...Shogun II? It wasn't my favorite setting for a TW game, but it definitely had my favorite gameplay out of any unmodded title in this series.

[Ailurus]

How does this game compare to say...Shogun II? It wasn't my favorite setting for a TW game, but it definitely had my favorite gameplay out of any unmodded title in this series.

In what way? And I'm asking that as a serious question - what aspects of the gameplay are you concerned about? A brief overall synopsis: construction on the world map has been simplified some (the only factors you really have to balance as public order, income and corruption), and the battles tend to run a little faster than previous titles. But, on the battlefield it's just hard to compare - there's plenty of videos out there if you want to see it in action, but some of the main changes.

First, monsters and heroes. Most of the generals can become combat monsters in their own rite, as can a lot of heroes. Grimgor, for example, can handle half an army on his own early game (before armor-piercing damage becomes more common), and despite some recent nerfs Gorebulls can still overpower large groups of basic infantry. In addition to them, too, there's a lot of monstrous units as well that can do similarly. Giant smashing through a city gate? Check. Dragon Ogres scything through tightly packed formations? Check. Varghulfs making a bunch of Empire state troops think that werewolf legends have come true? Check.

Also, flying units change things up too. The Vampire Counts and Bretonnians tend to have the best air forces (with maybe Wood Elves too - they have multiple fliers, but I haven't really tested them yet), but all factions have at least some aerial firepower. Having a Gyrocopter go on a bombing run over the enemy side of an engaged battleline can easily change the course of a battle, to say nothing of how artillery crews or archers feel when a bunch of pegasus knights or vargheists just fly over their meat shields and land right on them.

Then, magic. Admittedly, magic could still use some more balance passes (in a way, it's a lot like 3.5 D&D - buffs often rock, and most direct damage spells are meh), but it still changes things up. Runelords and Runepriests can turn an already-tough Dwarven battle-line into a virtually unbreakable wall. Necromancers can put out enough healing/reanimation for their minions that CA had to put a healing cap on units (otherwise doom-balls of undead were essentially unstoppable - they'd literally get up as soon as they went down). And even if the direct damage isn't always great on the effect, it frankly looks amazing and some spells can be absolutely devastating if you can line it up to go down a whole battle-line.

And finally, the factions themselves. Sure, there's some differences between factions in the historical titles, but there's no comparison at all here. The Empire is a relatively standard army, but they're the only one. Outside of their magic, the Vampire Counts have literally no ranged combat, and Chaos only has one artillery piece and some skirmish cavalry for range. Wood Elves on the other hand, only have a handful of melee units and rely on range and mobility. Dwarves have great range too, but have horrible speed and high armor instead. Greenskins and Beastmen like just overwhelming people with bodies, and have a special mechanic of when one of their armies fight enough they'll spawn a free army that follows them around giving you twice as many bodies to throw at people.

It's definitely still a total war game, but there's a lot more than a new coat of paint on it.

[boomwolf]

The first game is only meant to represent the Old World - High Elves and Dark Elves aren't part of the intended scope. They're coming along with the second title in the trilogy (as well as Lizardmen by all accounts). And the completed Bretonnia are coming free in the new year.

The thing to remember though is that the stuff in the DLCs is added to the game whether you buy them or not - so if your favourite faction is e.g. Greenskins, you can buy just the base game and you'll still be able to fight wood elves, beastmen etc. as much as you like. It's only if you want to play as them that you need to buy that specific DLC. And to be honest with just the four factions in the base game I've already found it has much more replayability than the last historical title I played (which was admittedly Medieval 2 so I may have missed out on some innovations in between).

Trilogy? where does that information come from?
And if that's a trilogy, and you got the elves, rats and lizards (and tomb kings? not sure where they are on world map) in the "other" game, who's on the third?



Anyway, my favorite rats are still not in the game. might never be if what you say is correct.

My close second-chaos, are horribly represented (where is the difference between the four gods? a bunch of makrs, some obviously superior to others?) no god-spesific units at all, the only daemon around is the LoC as an endgame enemy, except debatfuly the poison warhounds who can be attributed to nurgle. heck, you can probably make a whole game just around chaos versus chaos and it can be as varied as the core game



On another note, this is a nitpick but this annoys me every time I watch the game and contemplate buying it. the faction names.
The playable factions named as "dwarves", "greenskins", "empire" etc is fine when you actually play them.
But when you are someone else, and encounter the "greenskins"...and what are all the other orks? not greenskins?
Why didn't they give them specific names ffs x_x
A mod to fix that would be #1 on my list once i cave and buy it. ffs, why was in not on the last steam sale :(

[Ailurus]

Trilogy? where does that information come from?
And if that's a trilogy, and you got the elves, rats and lizards (and tomb kings? not sure where they are on world map) in the "other" game, who's on the third?


CA has been saying that from the start. Heck, it's the third line on the game's Wikipedia page. "It is the 10th title in the Total War series and the first title to be released in the Total War: Warhammer trilogy." In fact, they've gone on record that due to the first part's success they're expanding their plans for the other parts.



Anyway, my favorite rats are still not in the game. might never be if what you say is correct.

My close second-chaos, are horribly represented (where is the difference between the four gods? a bunch of makrs, some obviously superior to others?) no god-spesific units at all, the only daemon around is the LoC as an endgame enemy, except debatfuly the poison warhounds who can be attributed to nurgle. heck, you can probably make a whole game just around chaos versus chaos and it can be as varied as the core game

Can't comment on Chaos Divided, but there's a lot of speculation (all unconfirmed, AFAIK) that the third part of the trilogy will be focused on the separate chaos gods. As for the Skaven, though, CA has said that every army which had an 8th edition rulebook should become an army at some point. What units are featured, I've no clue, whether they'll be a core part of an expansion or DLC I've no idea (I strongly suspect they will be a core part of Expansion 2 just due to the number of mechanics they'll need for the underground) but Skaven will arrive at some point.



On another note, this is a nitpick but this annoys me every time I watch the game and contemplate buying it. the faction names.
The playable factions named as "dwarves", "greenskins", "empire" etc is fine when you actually play them.
But when you are someone else, and encounter the "greenskins"...and what are all the other orks? not greenskins?
Why didn't they give them specific names ffs x_x
They've started improving that. Granted, the 'core' factions are still named after army books, but Dwarves you can now be Clan Angrund or Dwarves. Orcs can be Crooked Moon, Greenskins or Bloody Handz and Wood Elves can be Wood Elves or Argwylon.


All that said, with the expansions they've said that the expansions should be stand alone and somehow plug into the other ones so you can do both a complete campaign with just one expansion or just one gigantic campaign with all three. So, if Skaven are your biggest focus then just pick up that part when it arrives (without confirmation, again, but the prevailing thought is that Expansion 2 will almost certainly be High Elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen and Skaven), see if you like it, and pick up the other parts if you do.

[LCP]

The Vampire Counts and Bretonnians tend to have the best air forces

*cough*Empire*cough*

[Ailurus]

*cough*Empire*cough*

Nah. Amber Wizard/Manticore cheese is dead now, as the last patch made summons degrade over time. You'll realistically never have more than two manticores out now, and the first one will be half dead before the second arrives. Can still do the flying sniper bit with wizards, but if they run into someone with their own air cover that will fall flat and Glade Lords on Eagles beat them there too. Empire's decent in the air, but not at the top.

[LCP]

I agree manticore spam is dead but Empire is still super strong in the air without it. The Amber Wizard on griffon is still worth taking for Flock of Doom and their griffon generals are real heavyweights in the air. Most of all though they just have the right ground units to support them so that they don't need to be afraid of other armies' air forces (handgunners, luminarks, light wizards with the Net of Amyntok).

I'd say 90% of competitive Empire builds I've seen have the general on a griffon. And Great Eagles get wrecked by griffons if they get caught.

[Ailurus]

Gryphon Generals are far from heavyweights. Sure, if you clear the skies for them they can wreck face and as you said, but he's in straight combat he's mediocre for flying units. Testing him vs. 1800-2000 pts of various flying enemies (he's 1927 pts) yielded the following:

Beastmen: Equal points of harpies beat him.

Bretonnia: A lord on a hippogriff is a roughly equal fight, equal points of pegasus knights beat him

Greenskins: He will beat a Warboss on a Wyvern

Vampire Counts: Varghiests beat him, a ghoul king beats him so long as the ghoul king takes Spirit Leech (and who doesn't), and levelled bats will beat him. He beats unlevelled bats and a terrorghiest

Chaos: A chaos lord on a dragon is a roughly equal fight, manticores beat him

Wood Elves: Melee glade lord on beats him regardless of mount, a ranged glade lord on a dragon beats him in melee, unmounted eagles beat him, and an unmounted forest dragon is a close fight.

Now, sure, I doubt anyone is bringing ~1800 points of levelled up bats or similar to a fight, and in a pitched battle no one is going to stop and have a lord duel over a bunch of handgunners. But the General's strength is not in being a good air unit. It's due to being a fairly heavy fairly mobile unit with an army that can clear out anything that would try to intercept him. But having good AA guns and a mediocre air force doesn't mean you have the best air force.

[LCP]

levelled bats will beat him

Melee glade lord on beats him regardless of mount

unmounted eagles beat him

Whaaaaaat? How are you conducting these tests? Did you give the empire general his potion? And you know the melee glade lord has identical stats to the ranged one?

Also worth pointing out that unit performance is not one-dimensional. Fighting numerous low-quality enemies in the air is not what the griffon does best - what he wants to be doing is diving down on the heads of enemy heroes and take away something like 1/4 of their health in a single charge.

Anyway there's only one real way to settle this.

http://www.pitpass.com/images/headlines/2010harryhill400.jpg

My Steam name is Pippington. Bring your best air squad! I'll Empire you right up :smalltongue:


Seriously though, I take your point about having the best support not being the same as having the best air force... but in practice, I find that Empire rule the skies in MP games because the presence of their support dissuades people from trying to compete in the air. You can have all the air options in the world, if the Empire player has one air unit and some cheap ground units that shut your air units down hard, they have air superiority.

Another classic example would be Wood Elves vs. Chaos. Chaos has access to a very strong flying squad, but thanks to Starfire Shaft Glade Guard and Prey of Anath Raema I would give the air superiority to Wood Elves every time.

[Ailurus]

Stats may be the same, but the melee lord has abilities for melee.

As for conducting the tests:

Custom battle -> empire general on AI side, other units on my side. Right click -> attack, increase speed, use abilities on cooldown.

[boomwolf]

Stats may be the same, but the melee lord has abilities for melee.

As for conducting the tests:

Custom battle -> empire general on AI side, other units on my side. Right click -> attack, increase speed, use abilities on cooldown.


You should do each of these battles the other way around as well and confirm identical results, just in case there is a serious case of AI stupidity involved.

[LCP]

Did that test and the veteran bats can indeed beat the generic empire general with the standard loadout. They do lose most of their numbers in doing so (not that that matters hugely, they're bats - but then you have spent a ton of money in upgrading them with veterancy), but more importantly they take seven minutes of continual swarming to break him. A multiplayer battle can quite easily be lost or won in less than seven minutes. In the time that you realistically have to use them in, the empire general can just ignore the bats.

That's not saying that the fact the bats can beat him isn't a relevant at all - obviously when you couple some of those cheap, fast bats with something like a Terrorgheist then the VC have the potential to beat the Empire in the air. But then you need to factor in the Empire army too, and this kind of isolated testing is not so useful.

More to the point though, since the last patch the Empire General is not the Empire's main air guy. Boris has no trouble with equal funds of veteran bats.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/103978853366993978/DDAF51B429D049609D4D8C6B608D2A80945A0A3E/