Stealth and hide

[daimonionen]

How do you use this? Especially before and during combat. It seems you can very rarely use it.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Most people can hide when (1) heavily obscured (2) the enemy doesn't know exactly where you are (3) you're not making a loud noise.

Heavily obscured basically means line of sight is blocked completely. This might mean being in another room, hiding behind a large obstacle like a bench or bookcase, or hiding a safe distance away in a thick fog or total darkness.

Certain racial features (wood elf) and feats (skulker) allow you to hide when lightly obscured. Light obscuration means that a substantial portion of you is blocked by opaque obstacles such as shrubbery, a lattice fence, or a weapon rack, or when you are totally blocked by a semi-transparent occultation such as a light fog or heavy smoke.

Generally speaking, it takes some creativity and forethought to get stealth. It's easier in overland encounters, and easiest if you're able to set up an ambush.

[Steel Mirror]

It's also something that gets a good amount of use if you're doing the stereotypical D&D pastime and dungeon crawling. Send the rogue ahead to check out the next room while stealthed. He not only reports back what he saw so that your team can make plans, but when you guys bust into the cave room and start kicking goblin arse or whatever, he circles around the edges of the cave and picks off some foes with his sneak attack. If he's creative and lucky, he'll be able to re-enter stealth a few times over the course of the battle by taking advantage of shadows and cover, and repeat.

Not every game is a dungeon crawling game, but that's the classic rogue maneuver, and it works pretty well (well enough to be the archetype for 5 D&D editions and counting!).

[daimonionen]

It's also something that gets a good amount of use if you're doing the stereotypical D&D pastime and dungeon crawling. Send the rogue ahead to check out the next room while stealthed.How would that work? I would think that in almost all situations, they would just see him because there's nothing to hide behind.

[Steel Mirror]

How would that work? I would think that in almost all situations, they would just see him because there's nothing to hide behind.
Why is there nothing to hide behind? In natural caverns, the floors are not completely level stone surfaces with no obstructions or detritus around. In constructed structures, there will be interior walls, crates, furniture, stairwells, and curtains to hide behind. Even if the room is fairly wide open, it's not like the denizens of whatever dungeon you are traipsing through spend their time staring blankly at all the entrances to their room. They'll be playing card games, or milking the ankheg maggots, or whatever it is that monsters do when they aren't dying to put xp on your sheet.

Have you ever played a stealth computer game, like Thief or Hitman or Splinter Cell? Or other games with stealth mechanics, like Dishonored or Deus Ex or Batman or Skyrim? Rogues are like that, and imo a good GM comes up with environments that are interesting and varied enough to let the players engage with them and use them to their benefit (the enemies will try to do the same thing! Imagine the rogue's surprise when he lurks in the shadows around the battle only to run into a pair of empty-eyed drow assassins doing the same thing). And that's not only for the benefit of the rogue- wizards and fighters and clerics and archers love an interesting combat arena as much as the next murderhobo.

[MinotaurWarrior]

How would that work? I would think that in almost all situations, they would just see him because there's nothing to hide behind.

1) If there are things to hide behind. A classic example would be the guards at a table playing dice and drinking, with the rouge hiding behind the backs of the seated players, using their bodies to block LoS from the players seated on the opposite side.

2) If the player can create things to hide behind, or cause enemies to move out of LoS. A classic example would be standing at a doorway, throwing a pebble at the opposite end of the room, waiting for the guards to investigate, sneaking in, and then throwing a pebble down the way you came.

[daimonionen]

Yeaah... It just seems that in most situations, unless there's something immediately before the door that he can hide behind, they would see the rogue come in.

[Steel Mirror]

Yeaah... It just seems that in most situations, unless there's something immediately before the door that he can hide behind, they would see the rogue come in.

shrugs. Why not try to see what happens in play? It sounds like you are just getting into the hobby. Once you guys actually get into a dungeon, you'll be surprised at how creative you guys get, and how much fun comes from trying to take advantage of the environment and tricking your enemies.

[daimonionen]

Hopefully. That's why I'm asking, since so far it's only been "i attack" over and over again.

[RickAllison]

We were fighting in a tomb filled with mummies popping out of the sarcophagi, so our rogue was diving over the tombs, hiding, the moving so he could stab and escape if the mummies pursued.

[Demonslayer666]

Hopefully. That's why I'm asking, since so far it's only been "i attack" over and over again.

Say "I hide" instead.

Ask for a better more detailed description of the environment.

[Vogonjeltz]

How do you use this? Especially before and during combat. It seems you can very rarely use it.

The rules for hiding are explained in the PHB on page 177.

The short answer by default is:
1) Take an action to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. You're now hidden from anyone who couldn't see you clearly at the time of the check. In practice this means the character should be heavily obscured (i.e. Darkness) as opposed to lightly obscured (Shadows) from view. Note: Halflings and Wood Elves have special abilities that allow them to make the check when only lightly obscured (Halflings for when a creature is interposed between them and the viewer and Wood Elves for when in natural phenomena) and the Skulker feat allows a character to hide anytime they are only lightly obscured (as in Dim Light, Shadows) from the creature they're trying to hide from.
2) When someone might be able to see you, the DM compares their Passive Wisdom (Perception) score to your check. If their score matches or exceeds your check, they see you.
3) As an action, someone can Search, which lets them make a Wisdom (Perception) check to try and find a hidden creature.

If you deliberately come out of hiding in combat and approach a creature, it's assumed creatures notice you automatically. However, a DM might allow you to try and sneak up on a distracted creature and make an attack as an Unseen Attacker.

This last bit is useful for Rogues who have the sneak attack feature, because Unseen Attackers have advantage on the first attack, and Advantage gives the Rogue additional damage dice if they hit. However, once you attack (hit or miss) you give away your location.


Yeaah... It just seems that in most situations, unless there's something immediately before the door that he can hide behind, they would see the rogue come in.

That's why you compare their perception score to the stealth check. It determines how aware the characters are as compared to how stealthily the Rogue is sneaking.

In the specific example of the 4 guards playing poker, I'd probably impose disadvantage (-5 penalty to a score) as they're distracted with the game and not focused on being aware of their surroundings. In that case, only a terrible stealth check would get noticed (or if one of the guards was highly observant, i.e. An Elf Ranger in their favored terrain with the Observant feat would almost always notice someone trying to sneak around).

[daimonionen]

That's why you compare their perception score to the stealth check. It determines how aware the characters are as compared to how stealthily the Rogue is sneaking.
This sounds like you're saying you don't actually need cover as long as you have a high enough stealth score, you're basically invisible.

[RickAllison]

This sounds like you're saying you don't actually need cover as long as you have a high enough stealth score, you're basically invisible.

No, you still need to break line of sight. The idea is like the combatants can keep track of the other but breaking the line of sight and using Stealth means you challenge their ability to think where you might be against your ability to sneak past undetected. Normally they can track by the glances as they fight the others, but rogues use breaks in the vision to switch directions and become difficult to predict.

[MinotaurWarrior]

This sounds like you're saying you don't actually need cover as long as you have a high enough stealth score, you're basically invisible.

If you have the skulker feat (representing extraordinary training), in dim light, when nobody is looking, you can cause enemies to lose sight of you... for about six seconds. Eventually, they'll find you. You just shook them for a moment.

It's not until level 11 that rogues can become "unfindable" by ordinary people. The same level a monk can walk on walls.

[Vogonjeltz]

If you have the skulker feat (representing extraordinary training), in dim light, when nobody is looking, you can cause enemies to lose sight of you... for about six seconds. Eventually, they'll find you. You just shook them for a moment.

It's not until level 11 that rogues can become "unfindable" by ordinary people. The same level a monk can walk on walls.

In dim light, without dark vision, they'd still have disadvantage to notice the Rogue, and if the Rogue has expertise in stealth there's a good chance they couldn't be found without a search action. Since the passive perception would typically be only a 5 then.

[MinotaurWarrior]

In dim light, without dark vision, they'd still have disadvantage to notice the Rogue, and if the Rogue has expertise in stealth there's a good chance they couldn't be found without a search action. Since the passive perception would typically be only a 5 then.

If they don't look, they won't find a skilled hider.

Seems totally sensible to me.

[realitymeltdown]

No, you still need to break line of sight. The idea is like the combatants can keep track of the other but breaking the line of sight and using Stealth means you challenge their ability to think where you might be against your ability to sneak past undetected. Normally they can track by the glances as they fight the others, but rogues use breaks in the vision to switch directions and become difficult to predict.

One thing that gets interesting is that the PHB says in combat people are at attention and looking for attacks from all directions. That said, before combat, your DM has opportunities to let you sneak around. Don't forget, you're a hero - generally someone proficient in a skill is sneakier than expected - a +4 is like a tiger in the woods, a +7 is like batman on rooftops. See if you can come up with something that would work if you were awesome - your character is.

[Plaguescarred]

How do you use this? Especially before and during combat. It seems you can very rarely use it.Stealth is either used defensively or offensively and we use it more for the latter than the former.

Outside combat it's usually used to go unoticed to avoid an encounter or start one using an ambush with surprise.

In combat Stealth is normally used when not already seen, to hide and make your location unknown. This makes targeting you even more difficult since attackers now have to target a space they think you occupy.

Additionally, Stealth is often used when already seen, to hide - become unseen and and make your location unknown. In addition to also making targeting you more difficult, it also leave attackers with disadvantage to attack you while giving you advantage to attack them. Use in this fashion, offensive Stealth becomes a way to get advantage to an attack and is usually used when you can more easily hide than usual this with less action economy, such as a skulker, halfling or elf rogue that can hide as a bonus action while only lightly obsucred as opposed to say having to sue an action to do so while heavily obscured.

[JellyPooga]

In a typical dungeon crawl where you're exploring a bunch of rooms connected by corridors, doors are a problem, as are the close quarters and I suspect this is the source of your woes. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the party "kicks in the door" and the Rogue has an opportunity to hide. It's also hard to imagine a scene in a 20x20 or 30x30 room that has sufficient cover to hide behind.

Don't let this put you off.

The first step is to pay attention to your GMs descriptions; barrels, crates, tables, dark corners and the like are all ripe for ducking behind/into to hide. Encourage your GM to include such things if he isn't; a bare, furniture free dungeon not only does you a disservice as a stealth character but also doesn't make a lot of sense unless it's a literal prison.

The second thing is to realise that stealth is as much about distraction as it is keeping quiet or out of sight. Opening a door is a dead give away, but luring the monsters out of a room instead might allow you to establish an ambush from "hidden" positions in the corridor. Sending in the loud, unstealthy Fighter first and creeping in behind him, hugging cover and sticking to the shadows, is a good way to allow the stealthy Rogue to cross the room unseen to (for example) steal the McGuffin before the party retreats. Tactics like this might allow you to accomplish goals despite facing insurmountable odds in a stand-up fight.

As soon as the adventure comes out of the dungeon, things get a lot easier; in a forest adventure for example, it's plainly easier to hide by sticking to the tree-line instead of the path, which is great for Rangers, Druids and (as always) Rogues. Dark alleys, crowded streets, a lavish ballroom, a ships deck; these things often don't need as much effort on the GMs part to "decorate" because the players can fill in the gaps themselves. Don't be afraid to ask the GM questions like "is there sufficient cover to approach unseen?", or even the likes of "seeing as we're in an alley, are there any garbage cans I could hide behind?" even if the GM didn't describe any...GMs are often permissive when it comes to such things because it proves that you, as a player, are engaging with the scenario instead of just being spoon-fed information.

So to summarise; Misdirection, Distraction, Use of Cover and Tactical Play will see you Stealthing like a pro.

[Theodoxus]

In Out of the Abyss, one of the players is a drow ranger with the Underdark Scout UA build and the skulker feat. One combat he hid on the bottom of a boat and popped up to take shots at things in the water. He'd scoot below the gunwale, rolling stealth every turn. It was mostly dark, with a few patches of dim light - even with darkvision, he was ostensibly invisible.

Another time, same toon, stood 30' behind and above my character who had a 10' bright light source (10' dim light) and used me for cover. Also popping out of "hiding" in the darkness he was in. No other cover.

If you want a sneaky character who break the game - play in the underdark with the skulker feat... not getting disadvantage in dim light for perception checks is amazing for poor mans invisibility.

[tKUUNK]

No, you still need to break line of sight. The idea is like the combatants can keep track of the other but breaking the line of sight and using Stealth means you challenge their ability to think where you might be against your ability to sneak past undetected. Normally they can track by the glances as they fight the others, but rogues use breaks in the vision to switch directions and become difficult to predict.

That's an excellent explanation / justification of hiding during combat. Thank you!

[ClearlyTough69]

One thing that I don't think has been explicitly said yet: the conditions for attempting to hide are different from the conditions for remaining hidden.

The PHB uses the following phrases, seemingly in a quite deliberate fashion:


attempting to hide
hiding
being hidden


... unfortunately it does not do us the favour of baldly stating that they are different and must be considered as such.

Here's my reading.

Attempting to hide
This is what you do at the start of an episode of stealthing, sneaking and sequestering yourself. If a creature that you are attempting hide from can see you, your attempt is automatically unsuccessful. The lightfoot halfling, wood elf and skulker are specific exceptions to this condition. Your attempt at hiding is represented by a Stealth check, and you don't know how successful your are until it is contested by another creature's Perception check.

Hiding
This just means that you have already attempted to hide. It can happen that there are no other creatures around to notice you, so your Stealth check has not yet been contested by another creature's Perception - but you're still hiding. You might have stepped out from behind cover, or no longer be in an obscured area, but because you are hiding you might remain hidden. You carry on hiding (and so using your original Stealth check) until you are noticed by all the creatures you are hiding from or you voluntarily stop hiding (this includes taking an action that causes you to stop hiding, such as attacking). You do not need to make new Stealth checks every round or every time you move; in combat this saves you from taking Hide actions round after round.

Being hidden
You have not been noticed: the Perception check of the creature you are hiding from has not exceeded your Stealth check. You can remain hidden from one creature while plainly seen by another that you were hiding from until it noticed you. You can be hidden from a creature even if it has line of sight to you. Possible reasons that you remain hidden even though you don't meet the conditions for attempting to hide are:

the creature is distracted
you are lightly obscured from the creature
you are behind partial cover
you are camouflaged

If you are hidden from a creature, it cannot pinpoint your exact position (your space on a combat grid) using its senses. It might be able to deduce your exact position ('that rogue must be hiding behind that lone tree: it's the only one in this huge field'), but if it cannot perceive you in it, you are still hidden.

I have gleaned this from a close reading of the text, but wonder if this matches with others' interpretation.

[Plaguescarred]

One thing that I don't think has been explicitly said yet: the conditions for attempting to hide are different from the conditions for remaining hidden.

//

I have gleaned this from a close reading of the text, but wonder if this matches with others' interpretation.Well said it exactly matches my interpretation of the rules.