Summoner vs Conjurer vs Animate Dead Cleric vs Juju Oracle Who wears it better?

[killem2]

I was a BIG fan of the 3.5 conjuration specialist.

But I haven't really gotten to play one yet in Pathfinder but I might have my chance soon. I personally love the micromanagement and paper work that goes into these type classes. I like having minions upon minions to do dirty work.

So which really in the long run does it better?

Summoner vs Conjurer vs Animate Dead Cleric vs Juju Oracle

All things consider, from say at least level 3 to level 15.

[Malroth]

Summoner with the Master Summoner archetype certianly does it sooner than anyone else if you're starting at lv 1. As to who does it better? I'd say Animate dead Cleric due to how easily he can simply memorize an appropiate Planar Ally spell for a day for a zero opportunity cost semi permanent outsider summon to augment the undead horde.

[Sheogoroth]

In order of best dress (in my humble opinion.)

1. Celestial Summoner: Absolutely incredible. Summon oodles of mobs as a standard action with Celestial templates. Standard summoner doesn't really fit the list, as the core of the class is the Eidolon rather than the summons.

2. Animate Dead Cleric: Your mobs follow you around and are permanent. Access to a lot of buffs for you kiddos. Plus you have access to a ton of interesting necromancer prestige classes from 3.5. Plus you can grab the death domain spells from 3.5 and use desecrate.

3. Conjurer: Can animate dead and summon. Probably take the Cruormancer Archetype for 5HD/level of undead. Most versatile, but for best punch pick one of the other two above. Granted it depends on what you're doing. Nothing else let's you have a dire ape flanking for a ghoul.

4. Juju Oracle: Gets AMAZING zombies, but only makes zombies. Juju-zombie is a template, which means you retain the base creature, but you're giving up things like Mohrg, Ghouls, Wights, etc. Your undead menagerie is severely limited. That being said, you do get a dump-load of undead.

Planar binding deserves a spot on the list. I haven't looked too much into it, but it's very interesting.

[killem2]

Can ask how you're getting summons to be a standard action? Does that mean I'll get to attack when they come out?

[Serafina]

Sacred Summons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-summons) is the most common way, and makes Clerics really good summoners. Do note that it works with a dip, or even Variant Multiclassing.
There is also Academae Graduate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/local-feats/acadamae-graduate-local-1), which can be taken by Wizards, but requires Fortitude-saves of 15+spell level to avoid Fatigue.
The Animal Shaman Druid Archetypes, such as the Saurian Shaman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/saurian-shaman), get the ability to cast Summon Natures Ally as a standard action, but only if it summons animals from a specific type of animal (such as reptiles and dinosaurs for the Saurian Shaman).
The Preservationist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/preservationist) Alchemist gets summons as standard actions by virtue of them being extracts - normally it's just SNA, but the Planar Preservationist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/planar-preservationist) feat opens up Summon Monster too. This Archetype even allows allies to cast those Summon-spells for you!
The Tattooed Mysti (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/tattooed-mystic)c PrC gives you an option every two levels which you can spend up for four times to get spells up to get Summon-spells up to IX as standard-actions. It costs too many caster levels though, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Finally, you can use the Tattoo Attunement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/tattoo-attunement) to store a summoned creature, then release it as a standard action (which staggers the creature for 1 round, which isn't so bad if you only want it to take a standard action anyway). This is open to basically any class, and is nice for stretching out a summon spell over several encounters.

Alternatively, you can go for Wordcasting, whose Summon-spells are standard actions too. However, that's a rather big alternate rule, even if just dipped via feat instead of outright replacing standard casting.
As an alternative to that - if you use Shadow Conjuration and it's derivatives, it'll be a Standard action to summon. Enemies will get a save to only treat the monsters as partially-real, but the save on that can be boosted sky-high by quite a few means.

So really, you'll only have to cast Summon-spells as full-round actions if you don't put some effort into it. At most, it's two feats (one of which is a nice item crafting feat) away, regardless of your class.

[Eldariel]

Between Planar Binding (basically the best spell in the game, and it comes with a free obedience clause to boot!), Simulacrum (Spell-Likes), Animate Dead (Bruisers) and Summons, Wizard takes the cake as per usual. Wizard also has Command Undead and Dominate Person for other sources of extra underlings; Clerics can Rebuke to command but there's a HD limit there while Command Undead has no such thing. You can even Craft Constructs if you feel so inclined.

But yeah, Summon-wise Wizards should pick up Acadamae Graduate linked by Serafina above, and the usual Summoning feats (Augment, Superior) and enjoy unfettered access to the whole list of options (good, evil, everything in-between). The only downside to Wizard Summoners is that it's hard to make the Summons last more than 2 rounds/level or thereabouts; 1 min/level makes them much more powerful on macro-terms.


Actually, you can completely negate the drawbacks of Acadamae Graduate. While it runs the risk Fatiguing you, that does not disrupt your casting. It disrupts your movement but if you use e.g. Phantom Steed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantom-steed) as your primary vehicle, why, that's completely unaffected! That said, some Wand for your familiar to remove fatigue might be a good idea unless you're immune though - it might be inconvenient to be Exhausted all the time.

[killem2]

What if I'm immune to fatigue because I'm a construct DM said I can be a wyrwood

[Snowbluff]

samsaran witches can get simulacrum as a fifth level spell. I think at level 9, they win minionmancy, able to duplicate critters up to 18 HD (more with CL bonus). Even at 1/2 HD, a lot of creatures have just absurd abilities and scores.

[Ualaa]

Is the Juju Oracle limited to Juju zombies?
In a previous campaign, we had one that was making Burning Skeletons as well.
He didn't want to mess around with intelligent undead, in his animate pool, but was okay using Control Undead (via Agent of the Grave).

From these options, I like the (Master Summoner) Summoner the most.
You have the option of several summons, as Standard Actions
You can still use your Eidolon, but it is weakened... maybe as mount?
Tons of useful buffs for your summons, or your allies.

It's hard to go wrong with the Cleric, since you're a very powerful class.
Who can do the animate thing on the side.
While still being a full cleric who can do whatever, as well.
I like 3/4 BAB, the two important saves and d8 hit points.
The option of Channel Energy, and feats that use Channel actions are nice.

Conjurer Wizard is a Wizard.
Probably the top option, in flexibility and power, even in a situation where summons are a poor choice.
Doesn't necessarily lag behind in the summons ability.

[Jack_Simth]

Is the Juju Oracle limited to Juju zombies?Checking... only when using the Create Undead spell that specifically comes from their mystery. However... the same revelation that gives them a bigger control pool also maximizes HP of regular and juju zombies (but not other forms of undead).

I do, however, find it interesting that the Juju Oracle can't actually cast the Create Undead spell they get from the mystery until 18th (without help, methods of getting cross-class spells, or methods of accelerating spell progression, anyway).
A Juju zombie requires a spell beyond Create Undead: Either Enervation or Energy Drain. Additionally, it requires a caster level of 11. And the Create Undead spell they get from their mystery is restricted to Juju zombies.

The Juju Oracle gets Create Undead at 10th, so they can't natively cast Create Undead for a Juju zombie when they get the spell (requires caster level 11).
Waiting one level wouldn't be so bad, except it also requires either Enervation or Energy Drain - Enervation isn't on the Juju mystery list, nor is it on the Cleric/Oracle list, so the Juju Oracle has to wait until the Oracle gets Energy Drain... which isn't on the mystery list, and is a 9th level spell on the Cleric/Oracle list.
If having to wait until 18th isn't bad enough... it costs a 9th level spell known to actually be able to use that 10th level class feature spell.
... and the spell source specifically prohibits using it for anything else.

Appears to be a dysfunction....

[killem2]

I might go that alchemist route on another character some day because I really love the idea of my team summoning things too lol.


However, if I am immune to being fatigued, does that mean I can still take that feat that was mentioned earlier?

[Serafina]

You should be able to, feats/abilities that cause ability damage/fatigue/some other condition usually mention it when immunity prevents them from working.
This has no such line, hence it should be fine.

[killem2]

Next caveat. The ap is mummys mask.

[Eldariel]

Definitely pick a class with Command Undead.

[killem2]

Definitely pick a class with Command Undead.

So Wizard/Conjurer May not be a bad choice!

[Eldariel]

So Wizard/Conjurer May not be a bad choice!

Like I already said, it's quite possibly the best choice in a vacuum and in a campaign where your level 2 spells will do that much work (it shouldn't be a huge surprise that in a Mummy/Tomb/Osirion-themed adventure, there be undead), it gets even better.

[killem2]

Like I already said, it's quite possibly the best choice in a vacuum and in a campaign where your level 2 spells will do that much work (it shouldn't be a huge surprise that in a Mummy/Tomb/Osirion-themed adventure, there be undead), it gets even better.

Also from previous campaigns, most low int beings my dm rolls randomly for who they hit. Which makes summoning even better. Softens the blow against real targets. Sorta makes my summons be de facto mirror images in a way :P. And if they do have Intelligence, well, what better way to help the party than to swarm the target?