[3.5] TWF + Rapid Shot question

[NickTheGreek3]

Hello, Playground!

Today I had a disagreement with my DM about how my dagger-throwing Rogue/M. Thrower/Whisperknife halfling works. He has both Two-weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot, coupled with Quick Draw and lots of daggers on his body for loads of sneak attack goodness :smallbiggrin:. He's also level 11 with +9/+4 BaB. So, my question is: how many daggers can he throw in a full-attack? My take on this is that I get 4 attacks: 3 from TWF and Rapid Shot with -4 penalty each and a 4th one from the extra BaB with -9, yet my DM claims that Rapid Shot replaces the final extra attack, since both require a full-round action.

Opinions are welcome, but please guide me with official rules and/or errata (cause apparently, I'm the party's rule lawyer :smalltongue:)

[John Longarrow]

Sounds like a Rules as Intended VS rules as written issue.

As DM, I'd probably go with the same ruling he has since one is intended for when fighting in melee with two weapons and the other is for use in ranged combat.

[stanprollyright]

No reason why they shouldn't stack

[Zanos]

Sounds like a Rules as Intended VS rules as written issue.

As DM, I'd probably go with the same ruling he has since one is intended for when fighting in melee with two weapons and the other is for use in ranged combat.
That's not really RAW vs RAI. You can use TWF with ranged weapons just fine, and there are published creatures who do.

You were correct in your initial thought OP. You get four attacks, but the penalties stack on all of the attacks. So you're at +5/+5/+5/+0.

[Pleh]

TWF works just fine for dual wielding hand crossbows. Why not thrown weapons? The usual reason for TWF not applying to range is that most range weapons require two hands to operate, not that the feat isn't meant for ranged attacks. In fact, phb page 160 explicitly says to use the same rules for ranged weapons.

My brain is telling me you have to full attack to gain the extra offhand attack, but looking at TWF rules in PHB I'm not finding it. Am I misremembering?

[Zanos]

My brain is telling me you have to full attack to gain the extra offhand attack, but looking at TWF rules in PHB I'm not finding it. Am I misremembering?
Gotta look at action types. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) It's not in the TWF rules directly for some reason. Which probably has caused a lot of confusion.

[John Longarrow]

That's not really RAW vs RAI.

Um... Wrong.

Its how the OPs DM views the rule as intended. I'm trying to help them understand why their DM may rule this way.

[Erit]

Rapid Shot says "You must use the full attack action to use this feat". To me, that says, "If you do a full attack you have the option of gaining the bonus/penalties associated with this feat", not "Full attacking overrides this feat". Otherwise, it would be a waste of time.

[Zanos]

Um... Wrong.

Its how the OPs DM views the rule as intended. I'm trying to help them understand why their DM may rule this way.
RAI is typically used to mean the rules as the writers intended. In this case, it's pretty obvious they intended for TWF with ranged weapons, because it's explicitly called out that it can be done. The TWF rules even specifically call out thrown weapons!

Thrown Weapons
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

[NickTheGreek3]

Guys, TWF isn't the issue here. There is an entire section in the TWF description specifically for thrown weapons. What I'm really concerned about is Rapid Shot and whether the extra attack it provides stacks with the extra attack(s) you get from BaB.


Gotta look at action types. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) It's not in the TWF rules directly for some reason. Which probably has caused a lot of confusion.
AFAIK, all the TWF characters that I've seen in the campaign I play in use TWF as a standard action. Otherwise, that would make TWF builds way too underpowered compared to two-handed weapon builds.


Rapid Shot says "You must use the full attack action to use this feat". To me, that says, "If you do a full attack you have the option of gaining the bonus/penalties associated with this feat", not "Full attacking overrides this feat". Otherwise, it would be a waste of time.

It's the feat that supposedly overrides full attacking. Basically, instead of attacking 3 times with -2/-2/-7 on a full-attack, you attack with -4/-4/-4 with Rapid Shot (at least that's what the DM claims).

[Zanos]

Ah, I was confused that it was an issue with TWF and rapid shot stacking. Your DM is suggesting that you don't get iterative attacks when you use rapid shot, then? That is not the case. Rapid shot contains no language that excludes your other iterative attacks, and some of the monster manuals contain examples of rapid shot attack routines that retain all their iteratives. Here's one (https://i.imgur.com/cEZMive.png).

[Deophaun]

AFAIK, all the TWF characters that I've seen in the campaign I play in use TWF as a standard action. Otherwise, that would make TWF builds way too underpowered compared to two-handed weapon builds.
That's a nice houserule, but a houserule nonetheless. That's why there's a feat in PHBII that's required to attack with both weapons as a standard action.

It's the feat that supposedly overrides full attacking. Basically, instead of attacking 3 times with -2/-2/-7 on a full-attack, you attack with -4/-4/-4 with Rapid Shot (at least that's what the DM claims).
Your DM is stumbling over the difference between "as a full attack action" and "must use the full attack action." The "must use" is to prevent you from using Rapid Shot as part of a standard, not to make it objectively worse than using iterative attacks. It's an ironic interpretation, considering the reasoning behind allowing TWF to be used as a standard.

[Darrin]

Guys, TWF isn't the issue here. There is an entire section in the TWF description specifically for thrown weapons. What I'm really concerned about is Rapid Shot and whether the extra attack it provides stacks with the extra attack(s) you get from BaB.


I am at a loss as to why you wouldn't. The entire point of taking Rapid Shot is explicitly to get an extra attack. The FAQ has several examples of Rapid Shot being used with TWF or some other full attack (such as Flurry of Blows). However, all we really need is to look at the text of Rapid Shot:



Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

(emphasis added)

Look at the two bolded words. The text itself is referring to your normal iterative attacks, and it's referring to them in plural. So the RAW here is pretty clear: Rapid Shot was intended to work with your iterative attacks. You get however many attacks as per your BAB, and Rapid Shot gives you one extra attack on top of those.



AFAIK, all the TWF characters that I've seen in the campaign I play in use TWF as a standard action. Otherwise, that would make TWF builds way too underpowered compared to two-handed weapon builds.


This is not a widely accepted interpretation. However, Emperor Tippy pointed this out some time ago, and there is some RAW support for it. The text for the TWF feat does not specify that you must use a full attack to use this feat, so by RAW you could say that having the TWF feat allows you to make an offhand attack when making a standard attack. D&D is an exception-based rules system, and having the TWF feat here could be interpreted to say that you get to break the "you must use a full attack to get more than one attack" rule.

Likewise, Improved and Greater TWF add a second and third offhand attack. This does lead to the oddity of when you make a standard attack, you get more offhand attacks than with your primary attack, but TWF kinda needs the help to stay competitive with THF.



It's the feat that supposedly overrides full attacking. Basically, instead of attacking 3 times with -2/-2/-7 on a full-attack, you attack with -4/-4/-4 with Rapid Shot (at least that's what the DM claims).

While the DM has the ultimate say in how the rules work for his game... he's still wrong, Rule Zero or not.

[stanprollyright]

AFAIK, all the TWF characters that I've seen in the campaign I play in use TWF as a standard action. Otherwise, that would make TWF builds way too underpowered compared to two-handed weapon builds.

That's how I play as well, mostly because everyone assumes that's the way it works, which also happens to be the way it should work.


It's the feat that supposedly overrides full attacking. Basically, instead of attacking 3 times with -2/-2/-7 on a full-attack, you attack with -4/-4/-4 with Rapid Shot (at least that's what the DM claims).

Nope nope nope. That's not making an extra attack, is it? That's making the same number of attacks, with -2 to 2 of them and +3 to another. Which is worse than not having the feat.

[Eladrinblade]

Hello, Playground!

Today I had a disagreement with my DM about how my dagger-throwing Rogue/M. Thrower/Whisperknife halfling works. He has both Two-weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot, coupled with Quick Draw and lots of daggers on his body for loads of sneak attack goodness :smallbiggrin:. He's also level 11 with +9/+4 BaB. So, my question is: how many daggers can he throw in a full-attack? My take on this is that I get 4 attacks: 3 from TWF and Rapid Shot with -4 penalty each and a 4th one from the extra BaB with -9, yet my DM claims that Rapid Shot replaces the final extra attack, since both require a full-round action.

Opinions are welcome, but please guide me with official rules and/or errata (cause apparently, I'm the party's rule lawyer :smalltongue:)

I'm pretty sure the FAQ says you're right. That should be all you need to convince him, if not, then you're not going to.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Actually I was gonna make a similar thread to ask a similar question. Do the feats greater manyshot and dual strike stack? Can you build a thrower who hurls 8 daggers at a time?

[Zanos]

However, Emperor Tippy pointed this out some time ago, and there is some RAW support for it. The text for the TWF feat does not specify that you must use a full attack to use this feat, so by RAW you could say that having the TWF feat allows you to make an offhand attack when making a standard attack. D&D is an exception-based rules system, and having the TWF feat here could be interpreted to say that you get to break the "you must use a full attack to get more than one attack" rule.

Likewise, Improved and Greater TWF add a second and third offhand attack. This does lead to the oddity of when you make a standard attack, you get more offhand attacks than with your primary attack, but TWF kinda needs the help to stay competitive with THF.
The only thing in the benefit line of the TWF feat is a penalty reduction, so that seems like a specious interpretation at best.

If you want to make TWF stronger, just do it and make it clear that you are. That applies to buffing or nerfing anything, really. Just do it in a way that's clear without relying on bizarre corner case rules interpretations as justifications.


Actually I was gonna make a similar thread to ask a similar question. Do the feats greater manyshot and dual strike stack? Can you build a thrower who hurls 8 daggers at a time?
As far as i know manyshot only works with arrows and dual strike only works with melee weapons. I'd say no either way though. Manyshot says "As a standard action, you may fire...", and dual strike has similar language. That, to me, indicates that usage of the feat is it's own type of discrete standard action.

[Darrin]

Actually I was gonna make a similar thread to ask a similar question. Do the feats greater manyshot and dual strike stack? Can you build a thrower who hurls 8 daggers at a time?

No. Manyshot is a standard action, and Dual Strike is a standard action. Outside of the problem that these two action types can't be combined with each other, there's also the problem that Manyshot only works with arrows and can't be used with daggers. Even if you could combine the action types, Dual Strike only lets you make melee attacks, not ranged attacks. And even if you could make ranged attacks with it, Dual Strike would still be an awful, terrible feat.

If you want to double the number of daggers you throw, then you're probably looking for Master Thrower's "Palm Throw" (Complete Warrior). You can design a build that throws 8 or more daggers a turn, but Manyshot and Dual Strike would not be part of it.

[Troacctid]

I think OP's DM has Rapid Shot confused with Manyshot.

[Elkad]

My reading says you can get five attacks. (6 if you had ITWF)

Main-hand normal, main-hand rapid, main-hand iterative.
Off-hand normal, off-hand rapid.

The only question is if using Rapid Shot on each hand applies the -2 penalty twice.
It feels like Yes, but TWF needs nice things, so I'd probably houserule No. (And I already give TWF other nice things at my table)

Compared to a single attack:
RAW would be your choice of -4/-4/-4/-9, or -6/-6/-6/-6/-11
At my table (and using light weapons in both hands with my TWF penalty extension and TWF combined feat), you'd get -2/-2/-2/-2/-7/-7

[stanprollyright]

My reading says you can get five attacks. (6 if you had ITWF)

Main-hand normal, main-hand rapid, main-hand iterative.
Off-hand normal, off-hand rapid.

Wait, what? Where are you getting that?


You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite
DEX 15
Benefit
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
Normal
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Both feats specifically give you one extra attack, each. I don't know where that extra offhand attack comes from

[gorfnab]

I am at a loss as to why you wouldn't. The entire point of taking Rapid Shot is explicitly to get an extra attack. The FAQ has several examples of Rapid Shot being used with TWF or some other full attack (such as Flurry of Blows).

Here is the FAQ stuff for reference.

From the D&D 3.5 FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) page 57.

Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot


Can I throw weapons with both hands? What happens
if I also use Rapid Shot?
The two-weapon fighting rules allow you to use thrown
weapons in both hands. As described on page 160 in the PH, a
dart or a shuriken is treated as a light weapon for the purpose of
two-weapon fighting, while bolas, javelins, nets, or slings are
treated as one-handed weapons. For other thrown weapons,
compare the weapon’s weight to those listed here. Generally, a
thrown weapon that weighs less than 1 pound (at Medium size)
is effectively a light weapon for this purpose. Weapons already
defined as light weapons are also considered light.
As long as you can draw additional thrown weapons as a
free action (such as from the Quick Draw feat), there’s no
reason you can’t also use the Rapid Shot feat to get an extra
throw with your primary hand. For example, if a 4th-level
fighter has Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and Two-Weapon
Fighting, he can throw two daggers with his primary hand and
a third with his off hand. His adjusted base attack bonus is +0
with each dagger (+4 base attack bonus, –2 for using a light
weapon in his off hand, –2 for using Rapid Shot).

[MeeposFire]

Yea rapid shot does not give you an extra attack with each hand it just gives you one extra attack at full BAB with a -2 penalty on all attacks that round.

[Elkad]

Wait, what? Where are you getting that?

Both feats specifically give you one extra attack, each. I don't know where that extra offhand attack comes from


You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon.


I read that as being able to apply to each ranged weapon. And apply the -2 penalty to all shots for each extra attack you get.

2 autoloading pistols, fire an extra shot with each.

2 hand crossbows (and another limb to reload with, and Rapid Reload), apply it to each of them.

4 arms and 2 longbows, extra shot with each.

The only place it gets weird is with a stack of daggers. If applies to the weapon and not the hand, you wouldn't be able to use Rapid Shot at all. Which is just silly.


If Rapid Shot only applies to one hand, then you should be able to take the feat multiple times (for each limb) at least.

[stanprollyright]

I read that as being able to apply to each ranged weapon. And apply the -2 penalty to all shots for each extra attack you get

A ranged weapon is not each ranged weapon.

[NickTheGreek3]

Thanks for the help guys! The DM did some digging of his own and agreed that my 4 attacks were legit. :smallwink:

Can't wait for the next level, when I'll grab Improved Two-weapon Fighting for even more dagger-throwing goodness! :smallbiggrin: