Bladesong and Polymorph?

[Spectre9000]

So yea, can you use Bladesong whilst polymorphed? I see nothing that says it can't be, but just want to be sure that there's no finagling that would cause issues with it.

[RickAllison]

So yea, can you use Bladesong whilst polymorphed? I see nothing that says it can't be, but just want to be sure that there's no finagling that would cause issues with it.

"The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality." You are not a Bladesinger who is in the form of a cat (that is Shapechange or Wild Shape), you are a cat with a humanoid's personality. You don't have any class features, Boons, or anything else. You are for all intents and purposes an ordinary cat.

[lunaticfringe]

I AFB ATM but if should still work with Shapechange & Wildshape if I remember right. Or not and I'm stupid and my Bladesinger totally shouldn't have been able to Bladesing as a Shadow Dragon.

I have become Maleficent, I have become Death.

[Spectre9000]

"The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality." You are not a Bladesinger who is in the form of a cat (that is Shapechange or Wild Shape), you are a cat with a humanoid's personality. You don't have any class features, Boons, or anything else. You are for all intents and purposes an ordinary cat.

It doesn't say you lose your class features in its description. The spell doesn't say you lose all knowledge or training that you've learned and that's become second instinct to you. Now, granted, I don't know of any beasts that have a good intelligence score, so it'd be possibly shooting yourself in the foot for using it, but it seems like you would retain the second nature of your class features if physically applicable. You don't lose concentration on the polymorph spell if you polymorph yourself, so why would you not be able to retain other aspects of your class since you can maintain that?

Where are you deriving that from (genuine question as that's the reason I've asked this)?

[Spectre9000]

I AFB ATM but if should still work with Shapechange & Wildshape if I remember right. Or not and I'm stupid and my Bladesinger totally shouldn't have been able to Bladesing as a Shadow Dragon.

I have become Maleficent, I have become Death.

Shapechange does explicitly state you retain class features if your new form is physically capable of doing so.

[Spectre9000]

Giant Eagles and Giant Owls are the highest intelligent beasts with an intelligence of 8 in the MM.

[Flashy]

It seems like it would work, though since Polymorph replaces the mental ability scores too you're only getting +1 as your AC and Constitution save bonus while in the animal form.

[RickAllison]

It doesn't say you lose your class features in its description. The spell doesn't say you lose all knowledge or training that you've learned and that's become second instinct to you. Now, granted, I don't know of any beasts that have a good intelligence score, so it'd be possibly shooting yourself in the foot for using it, but it seems like you would retain the second nature of your class features if physically applicable. You don't lose concentration on the polymorph spell if you polymorph yourself, so why would you not be able to retain other aspects of your class since you can maintain that?

Where are you deriving that from (genuine question as that's the reason I've asked this)?

Statistics as defined in the Monster Manual include all information necessary to run the character. Class features are information necessary to run your character. This they are replaced.

Statistics include everything from special traits (things like Sneak Attack), non-standard actions (Bladesong), and even the Ideals, Bonds and Flaws.

[MaxWilson]

Shapechange does explicitly state you retain class features if your new form is physically capable of doing so.

FWIW, here's a poll that might interest you: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?460092-Poll-Polymorph-Shenanigans/page3

There's a large minority of DMs who'd let you retain at least some class features in Polymorphed shape and a majority (around 58% of respondents apparently) who would give you exactly what is written in the stat block and nothing else. That's an appeal to ad populum, just some data for you to consider, since presumably one reason you're asking online is to poll the community.

As far as rationale goes: it's problematic. On the one hand, parts of Polymorph imply that you keep all of your class features, since it goes out of its way to say, "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech." If you lost all of your class features, then noting that you specifically can't cast spells would be redundant, so that is evidence in favor of keeping class features (besides spells). However, the text of other spells like Shapechange goes out of its way to explicitly note that you do keep class features, and Polymorph has no such language; that is evidence against keeping class features.

If you want my opinion in more detail, I'm listed as Hemlock at that link.

[RickAllison]

FWIW, here's a poll that might interest you: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?460092-Poll-Polymorph-Shenanigans/page3

There's a large minority of DMs who'd let you retain at least some class features in Polymorphed shape and a majority (around 58% of respondents apparently) who would give you exactly what is written in the stat block and nothing else. That's an appeal to ad populum, just some data for you to consider, since presumably one reason you're asking online is to poll the community.

As far as rationale goes: it's problematic. On the one hand, parts of Polymorph imply that you keep all of your class features, since it goes out of its way to say, "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech." If you lost all of your class features, then noting that you specifically can't cast spells would be redundant, so that is evidence in favor of keeping class features (besides spells). However, the text of other spells like Shapechange goes out of its way to explicitly note that you do keep class features, and Polymorph has no such language; that is evidence against keeping class features.

If you want my opinion in more detail, I'm listed as Hemlock at that link.

I would say the prohibition against casting spells is because class features are not the only way to do so. That language prevents others from simply handing the housecat a Wand of Magic Missile to keep them useful.

[Foxhound438]

you lose game statistics, to include character levels

Supporting quote: DMG 92, under "NPC statistics"; one of the options for generating game stats for an NPC is to give it class levels, implying that anything gained from class levels is part of your game statistics.

If it just meant ability scores, it would have said ability scores, not game stats.

Basically, anything quantified in game is part of game statistics.

[BW022]

I agree that the working of polymorph is that all statistics become those of the creature. You turn over your character sheet and use the monsters stat block. I've always played it that way in all games.

IMO, it is the only logical way of playing it. Otherwise... it is a nightmare for the DM to rule on which abilities folks can use. Imagine if you polymorph an enemy basilisk into a turkey... and it continues turning people to stone by its gaze.

This said... there is nothing preventing one from using bladesong and then polymorphing yourself. The bladesong lasts for a minute and doesn't require any further action to keep up. Unfortunately, your new form has an low Intelligence, so typically this means only a +1 AC bonus and concentration checks.

Personally, I find polymorph more useful on casting it on a fellow PC (often a melee type) and then keeping my distance. You are then subject to fewer attacks and hence don't need to make as many concentration checks. Further, if the concentration check fails... you aren't returned to normal only feet from an opponent. If you are going into melee polymorphed... I recommend spending the prior round casting a good defensive spell such as blink or at least mirror image.

[Mellack]

Ploymorph says all your statistics are replaced. That means that you lose all of the ones you started with. Shapechange is what you would need to keep bladesong.