help me get my "some times D&D" Group the optimal party

[GrayDeath]

Hello fellow Playgrounders.


Within the year changing I will be DMing 3-4 Sessions of D&D 3.P.

Since however most of the participating players (all of them but me to be honest) either fail to grasp the Tier System, have no intention to do so, or simply want to have fun, I am worried about their Class Choices.

I am looking for a "complete set" of no more than say ...10 Classes with at most 4-5 Prestige classes to give them to choose, as we dont want to spend a lot of time sifting.
We are using the Pathfinder ARG with 20pts and bans on "overoptimizing" any single direction.
So lots of not too high Attribute bonuses, spellikes etc arte on the table.

So what I want you to help me with is the following: List me the ideal Combination of (ideally) Tier 3 Classes (with a wee bit of Tier 2/Tier 4 "Simple but powerful" outliners allowed) under the following limitations:

Must be cool thematically/appealing fluffwise without too much explanation
Must be simple to play
Must synergize well enough in a 4 Player Group for a planned Adventure between levels 4 and 10ish
Should not require too much optimization or general rule savviness
Must be somehow available to me (I have no access to Dragon mag or some of the more obscure Books for examplke so something online is always great).

Pathfinder will be fully allowed (I have all Core Books, ARG, ACG, Inner Sea Primer and most local Infobooks) btw




To help a bit, the group.
M: likes ranged characters, prefers mobility and stealth to armor, often plays Elves, likes them a bit "darker", open to casters as long as they are focussed.
B: Thinks Additional Class features are all the rage, thinks some monk builds are OP, ticked out when he saw ToB, usually plays Druids, lacks the will to play wizardalikes, otherwise has a lot of D&D Experience.
J: Always plays something chaosfocussed, loves deep flair/fluff, prefers simple meachanics (but is not averse to some complications if it fits his Chaos!! Focus)
R: Wants his Chars to be really really good at killing. Prefers messier/supernatural ways to do so over simple stabbing. Likes a little magic, but doesnt like it dominating.
P: Will very likely play the most physically formidable thing you can get me. ^^
K: very little RPG Experience but good Roleplaying skills. Rule of Cool to the max is going to be his pick 9/10.


Thank you in advance

[LordOfCain]

R: Wants his Chars to be really really good at killing. Prefers messier/supernatural ways to do so over simple stabbing. Likes a little magic, but doesnt like it dominating.


Hm... not sure about the other players, but I would go with a totemist for R. Supernatural and messy with a little magic.

[Darrin]

M: likes ranged characters, prefers mobility and stealth to armor, often plays Elves, likes them a bit "darker", open to casters as long as they are focussed.


Swift Hunter, probably Scout 4/Ranger X, or you can throw in Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2 if you think he can handle the additional complexity.



B: Thinks Additional Class features are all the rage, thinks some monk builds are OP, ticked out when he saw ToB, usually plays Druids, lacks the will to play wizardalikes, otherwise has a lot of D&D Experience.


Unarmed Swordsage 20. If he needs more fiddly bits, Hit-and-Run Fighter 2 dip could give him some feats to play around with.



J: Always plays something chaosfocussed, loves deep flair/fluff, prefers simple meachanics (but is not averse to some complications if it fits his Chaos!! Focus)


Bardsader (Bard 4/Crusader X) with Song of the White Raven and Dragonfire Inspiration. Point him towards Aura of Chaos.



R: Wants his Chars to be really really good at killing. Prefers messier/supernatural ways to do so over simple stabbing. Likes a little magic, but doesnt like it dominating.


Hellfire Warlock with either Strongheart Vest or Binder 1 dip.



P: Will very likely play the most physically formidable thing you can get me. ^^


Water Orc. Barb 2/Fighter X. Power Attack/IBR/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. Give him a guisarme and add Headlong Rush for another damage multiplier.



K: very little RPG Experience but good Roleplaying skills. Rule of Cool to the max is going to be his pick 9/10.


Snow Elf. Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10.

[Manyasone]

Op, you did state Pathfinder, yes? Or is 3.5 also meshed in? What about 3pp pathfinder?

[GrayDeath]

Pathfinder Books mentioned as well as all online and most "regular" 3.5 Books are on the table.

Pathfinder 3pp is ... iffy.
I have PoW for example, but not the new psionics/Occults/etc, for example, so ideally I`d like to avoid PF 3pp.

[Hogsy]

Hello fellow Playgrounders.


Within the year changing I will be DMing 3-4 Sessions of D&D 3.P.

Since however most of the participating players (all of them but me to be honest) either fail to grasp the Tier System, have no intention to do so, or simply want to have fun, I am worried about their Class Choices.

I am looking for a "complete set" of no more than say ...10 Classes with at most 4-5 Prestige classes to give them to choose, as we dont want to spend a lot of time sifting.
We are using the Pathfinder ARG with 20pts and bans on "overoptimizing" any single direction.
So lots of not too high Attribute bonuses, spellikes etc arte on the table.

So what I want you to help me with is the following: List me the ideal Combination of (ideally) Tier 3 Classes (with a wee bit of Tier 2/Tier 4 "Simple but powerful" outliners allowed) under the following limitations:

Must be cool thematically/appealing fluffwise without too much explanation
Must be simple to play
Must synergize well enough in a 4 Player Group for a planned Adventure between levels 4 and 10ish
Should not require too much optimization or general rule savviness
Must be somehow available to me (I have no access to Dragon mag or some of the more obscure Books for examplke so something online is always great).

Pathfinder will be fully allowed (I have all Core Books, ARG, ACG, Inner Sea Primer and most local Infobooks) btw




To help a bit, the group.
M: likes ranged characters, prefers mobility and stealth to armor, often plays Elves, likes them a bit "darker", open to casters as long as they are focussed.
B: Thinks Additional Class features are all the rage, thinks some monk builds are OP, ticked out when he saw ToB, usually plays Druids, lacks the will to play wizardalikes, otherwise has a lot of D&D Experience.
J: Always plays something chaosfocussed, loves deep flair/fluff, prefers simple meachanics (but is not averse to some complications if it fits his Chaos!! Focus)
R: Wants his Chars to be really really good at killing. Prefers messier/supernatural ways to do so over simple stabbing. Likes a little magic, but doesnt like it dominating.
P: Will very likely play the most physically formidable thing you can get me. ^^
K: very little RPG Experience but good Roleplaying skills. Rule of Cool to the max is going to be his pick 9/10.


Thank you in advance


Just give 'em Path of War. Each class and the many disciplines will make the party versatile, able to BFC and heal through "mundane" means and all PoW classes are generally T3+, with a lot of combos within the disciplines to get lots of utility and damage out of them, without actually looking too hard to find them. There are also archetypes of the base classes that turn them into full initiators but can only get maneuvers of up to 6 levels.

M: Maybe they'd enjoy a ranged Stalker/Hidden Blade build with the Sniper rogue talent and sneak attack from a distance while using maneuvers and being extremely sneaky. The hidden blade has an ability to turn invis for a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier.

B: This guy will definitely love PoW and maneuvers. They can play MoMS Monk along with a PoW archetype to get stances, boosts, counters and even some strikes that allow full-attacks. Stalker is also a monk-like class as its main stat is Wis and uses a Ki Pool. It looks very much alike to the Unchained Monk.

J: They can be a Warlord focused on liberty(if that's not the case, and it's more on the destructive side they could always go for Harbinger, cursing the morons that abide by law etc.). The Warlord has extremely simple mechanics, as all PoW classes do and a lot of neat but simple combos within the class itself.

R: If this person is into supernatural stuff, they can play a Psionic Warrior(Psioncs Expanded, from the guys who made Path of War) or a Zealot(Psionic initiator) who uses their mind to enhance their killing capabilities. There's also the Mystic that's a gish-esque Initiator, using elemental maneuvers(with ways to bypass resistances and whatnot, so it's cool even if they chooses fire). They can just play a Magus as well, which is an easy class that uses 2 offensive spells(Shocking Grasp and Combust) and the rest can go into buffing and utility. If they hate prepared casters they can pick the Eldritch Scion archetype and be a spontaneous caster with charisma as their casting modifier.

P: There lots of archetypes of the base classes this fella' can choose from, so they can play a Barbarian with maneuvers, meaning they won't have a problem on the utility side. Pretty much all PoW base class archetypes I've seen bump up to T3 due to maneuvers alone.

K: PoW has introduced tons of martial traditions with tons of flavour they can pick from. Instead of showing them a bunch of classes, show them the disciplines and martial traditions. Once they select one, suggest an initiator who fits with that discipline even if the class doesn't start with the discipline. Due to how martial traditions work, they'll be able to trade one of their disciplines for the one granted by the martial tradition.

I'm a fan of Path of War, sue me.

Finally, initiator parties tend to synergize very well due to what each discipline and its maneuvers bring to the table. They can pull off amazing combos if they look hard enough when they're caught between a rock and a hard place and are generally more sturdy than an average party. Their power levels will also be more aligned so there's less of a chance a disparity will be created between characters and their power levels.

[Manyasone]

Pathfinder Books mentioned as well as all online and most "regular" 3.5 Books are on the table.

Pathfinder 3pp is ... iffy.
I have PoW for example, but not the new psionics/Occults/etc, for example, so ideally I`d like to avoid PF 3pp.

Weelllll....I'm going to admit, i'm biased. I don't like Paizo's 'Occult' nonsense at all, hence I also can't suggest using DSP 'occult' stuff.
What I can suggest is that if you allow Magic of Incarnum use Akashic Mysteries instead, if you use Expanded Psionics use Ultimate Psionics and if you use Tome of Battle use Path of War instead. In essence these books are upgrades to the 3.5 WotC systems. And if you want magic to be more interesting use Spheres of Power instead of Vancian casting (again, a bit biased). This system tones down on CoDzilla's and GODmages. Unless you want those off course

[GrayDeath]

Spheres of Power sounds very interesting ...to me.
However learning a completely new system is not really all that good of an idea for a 3-4 sessions "Fast Campaign", same for new Psionics etc.

And no, I dont want OP mages, CLerics and such, hence my intended focus on Tier 3 ideally.


I did not hink pure initiator Groups could work (I admit I ahve only skimmed PoW so far but I remember ToB still being problematic along the healing/ressurrecting line).
If that works it might make the Group easier to get to work, true. Mnaybe with an added WL/HFWL/B for R.

Thanks so far, still open for more Info (for about another week or so).

[Fizban]

Tier 3 is defined as being able to do lots of things, possibly specializing in one*. Any class that can do lots of things will do so because it has its own system backing it up, so not wanting to learn new systems means you're not going to have much in the way of tier 3 classes.

(I admit I ahve only skimmed PoW so far but I remember ToB still being problematic along the healing/ressurrecting line).
Because ToB isn't supposed to replace magic at all? Martial adepts are the easiest of the non-spell extra systems to learn and make it a lot easier to build a non-caster with more than one trick, but if that's too much then you're just gonna have to go with partial casters. Pathfinder has a disgusting number of them at this point, 3/4 BAB +2/3 casting classes each with their own pile of extra class features to choose from on the even levels opposite feats on the odd levels. If you're afraid of both high level spells and useless non-casters, make everyone play partial casters and you'll be fine- as long as everyone is cool with managing spells.

If you have people who just can't handle spells, well they probably won't be able to handle maneuvers or variable class features either, which means you'll just have to accept that they're not going to be useful all the time. Build them a competent brawler or skill-er and tell the rest of the party not to step on their toes too much.

Incidentally, if you're using Pathfinder classes I would not recommend bothering to count 3.5 classes anymore. Pathfinder's standard of balance is decidedly higher power than the standard of 3.5 (barring the obvious lack of some broken spells and addition of other broken spells), and I believe every subsystem has now been remade with a pathfinderized analogue, so there's no point in bringing the weaker 3.5 versions up. If your group is more familiar with 3.5, don't muddy the waters by dragging in pathfinder content, just work with what you know.

Looking at that oversized group, it looks like you have from 1-3 people who might not be comfortable with partial casters.

M can play a partial caster with a bow, I'm sure one of them has spells for bows.
B can play just about any pathfinder class, including a partial caster.
J's tastes are at odds with each other, since actual "chaos" abilities have nothing to do with simplicity. He can play a simple barbarian or whatever partial caster has wacky chaos spells available.
R's tastes are also at odds with each other, since they're adverse to magic but want supernatural powers. They can play a partial caster or learn an alternate system, such as path of war (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war) or incarnum veilweaving (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic), or maybe an aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis) (all three by Dreamscarred Press).
P's taste is poorly defined: if he wants beefcake, alchemist has mutations, and there are of course plenty of spells for physical powess on many lists. He can play an alchemist or other partial caster, unless "physically formiddable" is meant to exclude magic, in which case he should probably go barbarian so he doesn't have to navigate the recursive pathfinder fighter and feat lists.
K's taste is also poorly defined: rule of cool doesn't mean anything in a game where everything is supposed to be cool, you need a seed to start. Alternate systems are cool, specialists are cool, hybrids are cool, etc. He can play just about any pathfinder class if you pitch it right, including a partial caster.


Be advised that a 6 person party is pretty huge and requires a similarly huge number of foes to face them, who must be situated such that area effects cannot annihilate them en-masse. This can be accomplished by banning AoEs of course, but most people don't like that. If there's more than 2 casters in the party they will have considerably more magical might per day than 3.5 ever expected (though I can't speak about if/how well pathfinder's monster designs would handle it), which will also make things easier.



*Technically, "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.", but he rather misses the effect of his own words here. His own "tier 3" classes include tier 2 magic specialists and tier 4 martial adepts, because having one or two non-combat skills does not make you useful out of combat, and lacking or one two spells does not make you worse at being a specialist-the only way they're on the same tier is if you assume Celerity/Arcane Fusion/Arcane Spellsurge are on every sor/wiz forcing everything else down a notch, in which case you're playing higher op than anyone who needs a tier list is actually playing.

[GrayDeath]

Thanks for the in Depth Answer.

I know that their tastes might not be as clearly defined as say I would list mine, and mostly I went Tier 3 with inclusion of simple T2/powerful T4 for the intended Power and Complication level.
I know the tier System passably, they dont.

Many of you know it exceedingly well, hence my question for suggestions of ACTUAL classes/combinations. It does not really help me at all to list the amount of subsystems 3pp made when I dont have them and want to avoid having them learn a whole new thing for a 3-4 session campaign.

So if you could help me with your obviously deep knowlegde by actually providing what I asked for (even if, as I admit, its not easy) instead of telling me that depending on the built just about everything can fit (which incidentally is the second main reason for this thread ^^) I would be grateful.


Also on a sidenote. these are the 6 potential players. I do not expect all of them to have the time. ;) Still better too large a group than too small.

[Fizban]

Your long list of criteria essentially boils down to "good stuff:" tier 3 but also room for tiers 4 and 2, "simple" but also synergistic and capable of covering all roles, without any specific criteria other than "not tier 1," basically just pick a list of 10 classes when the main selling point of 3.P is that there are a bajillion classes. You can expect either exact build suggestions or broad categories. As I am not a connoisseur of Pathfinder (I actually rather dislike it, especially the pile of partial casters I am suggesting), I don't know all the classes off the top of my head, but lets see what's on the main page of the SRD with partial casting to list the exact names that make up the category:

Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus, Summoner, Hunter, Investigator, Skald, and Warpriest all have 2/3 casting and thus are virtually guaranteed to be brimming with options without even trying. Throw in the Barbarian and Rogue for people who can't be bothered to track spells. If your group isn't lords of optimization, there's no functional difference between tier 2 and tier 1, so I see no point in investigating full casters. I don't know more than a couple bits about pathfinder prestige classes and have no interest in starting now.

[Hogsy]

I did not hink pure initiator Groups could work (I admit I ahve only skimmed PoW so far but I remember ToB still being problematic along the healing/ressurrecting line).
If that works it might make the Group easier to get to work, true. Mnaybe with an added WL/HFWL/B for R.

Thanks so far, still open for more Info (for about another week or so).

Due to the vast number of disciplines in PoW and the nature of Counters, a few wands alone can do the trick for healing, besides the Silver Crane and Black Seraph disciplines who can both heal. Black Seraphs heal mainly themselves but Silver Cranes can heal both themselves and their allies. The PoW Archetype for the Paladin(a favourite of mine) allows the Pally to give temporary hit points to an ally each time he refreshes his maneuvers. I'm telling you, an Initiator party can handle themselves fairly well without a caster for the heals. Besides, a Bard can also be a semi-optimal healer in-combat with wands and Cure Wounds spells as well as out of it through his Soothing performance, although the latter burns through his Bardic Performance rounds quite fast.

[exelsisxax]

Just adding to what hogsy said, there's some heavy heal potential in the battle templar: a divine caster/initiating PrC. Swift action heals every single round you use a maneuver, convert spells into self healing while recovering a maneuver, and channel energy while recovering maneuvers. It advances divine casting 8/10 levels, and fully advances channel energy, lay on hands, and other divine abilities(bane and judgements, warpriest features, etc).

You can go directly warpath follower or warpriest into battle templar. Oracles or clerics can qualify after a single level of knight disciple(initiating paladin). A normal paladin can burn his feats on martial training to qualify without a pre-existing initiator class.

If you want healing, there's as much as you could ever want while simultaneously being useful during combat. Healbots are terrible, a proactive support is awesome.

[stanprollyright]

I'd suggest using mostly Pathfinder base classes, as the tier discrepancy is (slightly) lower and there are a lot of options for tier 3-4.


M: likes ranged characters, prefers mobility and stealth to armor, often plays Elves, likes them a bit "darker", open to casters as long as they are focussed.
Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor

B: Thinks Additional Class features are all the rage, thinks some monk builds are OP, ticked out when he saw ToB, usually plays Druids, lacks the will to play wizardalikes, otherwise has a lot of D&D Experience.
So he likes or hates ToB? If he loves it, Warblade/Warlord. If he hates it, Martial Master/Mutation Warrior Fighter.

J: Always plays something chaosfocussed, loves deep flair/fluff, prefers simple meachanics (but is not averse to some complications if it fits his Chaos!! Focus)
the Bardiest Bard!

R: Wants his Chars to be really really good at killing. Prefers messier/supernatural ways to do so over simple stabbing. Likes a little magic, but doesnt like it dominating.
Mad Bomber Alchemist

P: Will very likely play the most physically formidable thing you can get me. ^^
Barbarian

K: very little RPG Experience but good Roleplaying skills. Rule of Cool to the max is going to be his pick 9/10.
Paladin with a Gunslinger dip.