Dealing with a first time minmaxer

[deathbymanga]

so, I dm a weekly campaign at my college and one of the players is relatively new to the game, but is incredibly insecure about failure, so he's been working so hard to make his barbarian incapable of taking damage and dealing rediculus amounts of damage himself. We all just grown because he's not ver fun, but he's a friend so we put up with him, but he's always complaining about anything inconveniencing his character (like being a full orc in a kingdom of Elves who are racist towards orcs (He should be greatful the didn't flashmob him and actually let him into the capital)). He's got amazing AC, but **** Touch AC and no saving throws, and I want to teach him a lesson on minmaxing, so when i get back to college after break, i plan on sending some Ghosts his way to attack the party.

However, i don't think this will really work, so does anyone have any thoughts on how to deal with a player who can't seem to just enjoy a campaign and has to feel powerful at all times

[ZamielVanWeber]

IC answers to OOC problems are rarely good solutions. If you want to challenge his player, don't use ghosts. I have had the same problem as a player where I had AC around 40 and the rest of the party is in the 20's at best. My DM found a whole host of stuff that targets touch AC (heart seeking amulets for example) and spreads it out amongst enrmies, so there is always an enemy that can deal damage to me in melee. Is he dealing too much damage? The bone creature template will reduce his damage dramatically without negating his attacks for example so he does not feel useless.

If he is legitimately disrupting your campaign talk to him, the player. If his character is legitimately out of power bounds for your campaign, see if you can challenge him or discuss it with him.

[Deophaun]

Look, you're playing a game to have fun. So, I see things like


is incredibly insecure about failure
and

always complaining about anything inconveniencing his character

and I think just throw a few mooks at him to stomp on each combat and let him be happy. Strangely, I do not think throwing ghosts at him so he complains even more will enhance the gaming experience.

Otherwise, tell him there is more to life than AC and damage and you are not going to limit the campaign just so that the poorly built barbarian can feel good about himself.

[deathbymanga]

IC answers to OOC problems are rarely good solutions. If you want to challenge his player, don't use ghosts. I have had the same problem as a player where I had AC around 40 and the rest of the party is in the 20's at best. My DM found a whole host of stuff that targets touch AC (heart seeking amulets for example) and spreads it out amongst enrmies, so there is always an enemy that can deal damage to me in melee. Is he dealing too much damage? The bone creature template will reduce his damage dramatically without negating his attacks for example so he does not feel useless.

If he is legitimately disrupting your campaign talk to him, the player. If his character is legitimately out of power bounds for your campaign, see if you can challenge him or discuss it with him.

we've talked to him and he seems to feel he's the one at fault because the Cleric showed him up just once really (They were fighting vampires and the cleric dropped a Create Water + Bless combo and melted them all). He calls our Cleric OP but all he does is find very obvious things to exploit (His grief is mostly wit how our cleric is veteran Player and just knows more about the way th game works than him). We've tried talking to him about the problems we have with him, but it's not just in D&D, we have this problem with him in MtG games as well where he'll rage quit a game because the control player shut him down (we play Multiplayer EDH).

I'm not planning on changing my combat encounters to deal with him just sending some ghosts at him as a way to try and teach him a lesson, but I feel it's just going to make him want to increase his touch ac anyway. i'm looking for other ways to deal with him because the combat isn't the focus. I never build campaigns focused on combat, i use them as set pieces, but all he wants to do is fight because he doesn't like roleplaying in an environment whre people are racist towards him

[GilesTheCleric]

cleric dropped a Create Water + Bless combo and melted them all
-snip-
cleric is veteran Player and just knows more about the way th game works than him
-snip-

Not to insult your player, but what? This doesn't make any sense, and isn't how the game works. Its fine if you're playing more by rule of cool than anything else, but if that's the case, just tell your player OOC that as long as he can describe the cool things he's doing, he'll be fine and get a chance to shine.

You might also talk to your Cleric player. It's pretty easy for someone who's not watching themselves and also playing a T1 class to outshine others. Just make sure he's aware that he can easily outshine the newbs at the table. Maybe ask if he can prepare more party buffs instead of direct solutions to problems.

[Crake]

Not to insult your player, but what? This doesn't make any sense, and isn't how the game works. Its fine if you're playing more by rule of cool than anything else, but if that's the case, just tell your player OOC that as long as he can describe the cool things he's doing, he'll be fine and get a chance to shine.

I had a pretty good laugh at that too :smallbiggrin:

Just so OP understands: Bless water can only create a single dose of holy water, requires 25 gp worth of silver dust (or 5lb of silver dust, which is a LOT). Bless water also takes 1 minute to cast, so is hardly useful in combat unless he applied rapid spell to it, which is a +2 spell level metamagic that would drop it to 1 round casting (still bad, but not terrible). But finally, with a single dose of holy water, a single undead would take a measly 2d4 points of damage, with undead creatures within 5 feet taking a single point of splash damage, so.... Yeah, overall, none of that would have worked at all :smallfrown:

[Deophaun]

They were fighting vampires and the cleric dropped a Create Water + Bless combo and melted them all
Seconding Giles: What?

I could maybe, kinda understand if this was create water + bless water, but not even that works (1 minute casting time, 1-flask at a time; not feasible in combat).

And yeah, it's an OOC problem: your player wants a different game than the rest of the group. Not much you can do about that.

[Crake]

Seconding Giles: What?

I could maybe, kinda understand if this was create water + bless water, but not even that works (1 minute casting time, 1-flask at a time; not feasible in combat).

And yeah, it's an OOC problem: your player wants a different game than the rest of the group. Not much you can do about that.

Oh, I guess I kinda assumed OP meant bless water, not the standard bless spell.

[Troacctid]

It doesn't work either way, soooo...

[Deophaun]

I now have an image in my mind of a group of soaking-wet vampires dumbstruck as the cleric casts bless. Then, one of them (the joker of the group) realizes what the cleric was trying to do and starts acting; screaming and howling in pain and just hamming it up. When the others see that the cleric is buying it, they follow suit and one nat 20 on a Bluff check later, the cleric pats himself on the back for a job well done and the vampires get a moment of peace and quiet as they are now officially "dead."

[Crake]

I now have an image in my mind of a group of soaking-wet vampires dumbstruck as the cleric casts bless. Then, one of them (the joker of the group) realizes what the cleric was trying to do and starts acting; screaming and howling in pain and just hamming it up. When the others see that the cleric is buying it, they follow suit and one nat 20 on a Bluff check later, the cleric pats himself on the back for a job well done and the vampires get a moment of peace and quiet as they are now officially "dead."

Thats when they all poof into gaseous form and lead the party back to their coffins, all smug thinking they're about to kill a bunch of vampires, only to get completely wrecked by the vampires who are at full hp from all the fast healing, as well as all their minions at their base of operations :smalltongue:

[deathbymanga]

Not to insult your player, but what? This doesn't make any sense, and isn't how the game works. Its fine if you're playing more by rule of cool than anything else, but if that's the case, just tell your player OOC that as long as he can describe the cool things he's doing, he'll be fine and get a chance to shine.

You might also talk to your Cleric player. It's pretty easy for someone who's not watching themselves and also playing a T1 class to outshine others. Just make sure he's aware that he can easily outshine the newbs at the table. Maybe ask if he can prepare more party buffs instead of direct solutions to problems.


I had a pretty good laugh at that too :smallbiggrin:

Just so OP understands: Bless water can only create a single dose of holy water, requires 25 gp worth of silver dust (or 5lb of silver dust, which is a LOT). Bless water also takes 1 minute to cast, so is hardly useful in combat unless he applied rapid spell to it, which is a +2 spell level metamagic that would drop it to 1 round casting (still bad, but not terrible). But finally, with a single dose of holy water, a single undead would take a measly 2d4 points of damage, with undead creatures within 5 feet taking a single point of splash damage, so.... Yeah, overall, none of that would have worked at all :smallfrown:

it was Bless water, i think we all just got confused and thought it was a single action. He conjrued the water above the heads of the vampires high enough that the water would still be above their heads on his next turn, then blessed the water before it fell on them, making it holy.

This is more a case of all of us getting the rules wrong, but either way, it was a 1-time thing, and the cleric has deliberately avoided such a way of killing things again because he didn't want to just go around ruining the threat-level of the campaign

[Deophaun]

This is more a case of all of us getting the rules wrong
Ironically, it was your barbarian that instinctively got it right by calling BS. :smalltongue:

[deathbymanga]

Thats when they all poof into gaseous form and lead the party back to their coffins, all smug thinking they're about to kill a bunch of vampires, only to get completely wrecked by the vampires who are at full hp from all the fast healing, as well as all their minions at their base of operations :smalltongue:

I didn't bring up the scenario just so I could go in-depth and have to explain the situation. They were Vampire Spawn, not actual vampires.

This isn't about one stupid encounter where we all might have misunderstood how the encounter was supposed to go. this is about a salty player who can't seem to enjoy the campaign we're playing unless he's neither inconvienced or showing any weakness at all in it

[ZamielVanWeber]

it was Bless water, i think we all just got confused and thought it was a single action. He conjrued the water above the heads of the vampires high enough that the water would still be above their heads on his next turn, then blessed the water before it fell on them, making it holy.
Create water does not have the range to do that, bless water does not have the casting time, blessed water does not do that kind of damage. Are you better friends with the cleric player than the barbarian player? He may be reacting to what appears to be letting the cleric nova an encounter by blatantly violating the rules as you being biased to allow the cleric player to cheat because "cool."


This is more a case of all of us getting the rules wrong, but either way, it was a 1-time thing, and the cleric has deliberately avoided such a way of killing things again because he didn't want to just go around ruining the threat-level of the campaign

No one likes being utterly shown up and especially no one likes seeing a cool awesome encounter being ended where you do not get an action in edgewise. If he legitimately thinks he needs to figure out how to keep pace with a cleric as a barbarian then yes he is going to be trying to squeeze out every bit of power.

[Crake]

it was Bless water, i think we all just got confused and thought it was a single action. He conjrued the water above the heads of the vampires high enough that the water would still be above their heads on his next turn, then blessed the water before it fell on them, making it holy.

This is more a case of all of us getting the rules wrong, but either way, it was a 1-time thing, and the cleric has deliberately avoided such a way of killing things again because he didn't want to just go around ruining the threat-level of the campaign

Well, to address your actual issue at hand, if you want to add in a bit of a challenge, you said his saves were quite poor. Throw in a few mooks and a party-level caster of some kind, and throw a couple of control spells his way. Web is a good one, because he will fail his initial save (likely), but then he can feel proud of himself for being one of the only ones able to actually wrench his way through the web, since you need a strength check to actually move through it without burning it square by square.

Glitterdust, even just a CL3 scroll thrown at him by a UMDing rogue could pose a significant disadvantage against him, blinding him for a few rounds, grease on his sword would make him drop it barring a reflex save, ray of enfeeblement will drop his damage output significantly, making him hard to hit, but also have a hard time retaliating, meaning the enemies can just ignore him for the most part. All of those are level 1-2 spells that can be easily utlized by anyone with a decent UMD check or just 1-3 levels of wizard.

When he inevitably fails a save here or there and vows to shore up all his defences, remind him that this is a team game, and that, at least until a decent way into the late game, there's no way he will be able to cover ALL his bases, and that is what his team members are for, to back him up when something goes wrong. The cleric can dispel debuffs on him, or cast shield of faith to up his touch AC, or cast greater resistance to give him +3 to all his saves, for example, but there will always be the chance of him being hit. It's just a part of the game, and learning to roll with the blows is a part of it.

I know others have said to chat with him out of game, but I've found that in circumstances like this, talking to them when they're away from the table, and not in the middle of a crisis of failure leaves them quite level headed, and agreeing with you, and nothing gets done, because when that crisis hits, they panic, and start to get irrational, so it's much more about how you handle it in the moment, rather than trying to pre-emptively discuss it with them. Make sure the other players are also aware, and when the player starts to panic and worry, remind them that this is all part of the game, that their team-mates have got their backs, and that failure doesn't mean their character is horrible, just realistically flawed, just like all of us. Note the past failures of other characters in the party, and how those failures have made great stories, or put the players in fun roleplaying situations, and help the player to understand that failure at one thing doesn't make their entire character a failure.

[Deophaun]

This isn't about one stupid encounter where we all might have misunderstood how the encounter was supposed to go. this is about a salty player who can't seem to enjoy the campaign we're playing unless he's neither inconvienced or showing any weakness at all in it
But the two are linked. Your one example just so happened to be one where you totally whiffed the rules, but it's also one where the Cleric showed up the Barbarian, and your idea to teach the Barbarian a lesson is going to be another one where the Cleric is uniquely well equipped to deal with the situation and the Barbarian isn't.

This isn't fixing the problem; this is hitting someone in the same spot over and over again. You've already stated that combat--his bailiwick--is a small part of the campaign, so why are you plotting to take even that away from him?

Let's be clear, as presented this isn't a case of there being ghosts naturally present in the game; the ghosts are there with the intention of messing with the Barb. The former is fine. The later, not so much.

[deathbymanga]

Create water does not have the range to do that, bless water does not have the casting time, blessed water does not do that kind of damage. Are you better friends with the cleric player than the barbarian player? He may be reacting to what appears to be letting the cleric nova an encounter by blatantly violating the rules as you being biased to allow the cleric player to cheat because "cool."



No one likes being utterly shown up and especially no one likes seeing a cool awesome encounter being ended where you do not get an action in edgewise. If he legitimately thinks he needs to figure out how to keep pace with a cleric as a barbarian then yes he is going to be trying to squeeze out every bit of power.

I didn't even know he was breaking the rules. this isn't a case of favoritism, I don't care how powerful any of my players get. I threw a litch at them at lvl 1. The Cleric used the Sculpt Spell metamagic to encompass the entire water (he was a 5th level caster at the time and had created a 20ft radius of water and then looked up how much damage a single instance of holy water did to undead. He also used a scroll to cast it (Sculpt spell in the scroll as well) so that bypassed the casting time, so he was in the right


Well, to address your actual issue at hand, if you want to add in a bit of a challenge, you said his saves were quite poor. Throw in a few mooks and a party-level caster of some kind, and throw a couple of control spells his way. Web is a good one, because he will fail his initial save (likely), but then he can feel proud of himself for being one of the only ones able to actually wrench his way through the web, since you need a strength check to actually move through it without burning it square by square.

Glitterdust, even just a CL3 scroll thrown at him by a UMDing rogue could pose a significant disadvantage against him, blinding him for a few rounds, grease on his sword would make him drop it barring a reflex save, ray of enfeeblement will drop his damage output significantly, making him hard to hit, but also have a hard time retaliating, meaning the enemies can just ignore him for the most part. All of those are level 1-2 spells that can be easily utlized by anyone with a decent UMD check or just 1-3 levels of wizard.

When he inevitably fails a save here or there and vows to shore up all his defences, remind him that this is a team game, and that, at least until a decent way into the late game, there's no way he will be able to cover ALL his bases, and that is what his team members are for, to back him up when something goes wrong. The cleric can dispel debuffs on him, or cast shield of faith to up his touch AC, or cast greater resistance to give him +3 to all his saves, for example, but there will always be the chance of him being hit. It's just a part of the game, and learning to roll with the blows is a part of it.

I know others have said to chat with him out of game, but I've found that in circumstances like this, talking to them when they're away from the table, and not in the middle of a crisis of failure leaves them quite level headed, and agreeing with you, and nothing gets done, because when that crisis hits, they panic, and start to get irrational, so it's much more about how you handle it in the moment, rather than trying to pre-emptively discuss it with them. Make sure the other players are also aware, and when the player starts to panic and worry, remind them that this is all part of the game, that their team-mates have got their backs, and that failure doesn't mean their character is horrible, just realistically flawed, just like all of us. Note the past failures of other characters in the party, and how those failures have made great stories, or put the players in fun roleplaying situations, and help the player to understand that failure at one thing doesn't make their entire character a failure.

thanks for addressing the real issue. We all bring up the problems we have with the guy as he has his fits. The biggest issue at the moment was I had created a fun plot about the guys traveling to the elven capital and learning some weird stuff regarding the land loosing holy energy despite continuous attempts to sancitfy the land. however the Barbarian wanted to leave right away because they were racist (charging 20% more to any orc) and he had to wear bracers of pacifism (10 str max and calm emotion on self when emotions go high). he refused to try and roleplay this because all he wanted to do was fight (he always just ignores roleplaying situations and in times of peace, he just wanders into the wilderness to look for game to hunt.

[Deophaun]

however the Barbarian wanted to leave right away because they were racist (charging 20% more to any orc) and he had to wear bracers of pacifism (10 str max and calm emotion on self when emotions go high).
I am now firmly on the side of the Barbarian player. You actually turned his character into a commoner and you're wondering why he's complaining?

[Grod_The_Giant]

all he wants to do is fight because he doesn't like roleplaying in an environment whre people are racist towards him
Gee, I wonder why :smallconfused:. While a situation like that can be a fun RP challenge, it can also be irritating as hell. The guy probably feels like he wasn't adequately warned and is now useless in noncombat situations. (To say nothing of the fact that he's playing a Barbarian and is largely useless outside a fight). Regardless of whether or not that's true, I suggest offering him the chance to roll up a new character who can fit the current setting a bit better.

EDIT:

The biggest issue at the moment was I had created a fun plot about the guys traveling to the elven capital and learning some weird stuff regarding the land loosing holy energy despite continuous attempts to sancitfy the land. however the Barbarian wanted to leave right away because they were racist (charging 20% more to any orc) and he had to wear bracers of pacifism (10 str max and calm emotion on self when emotions go high). he refused to try and roleplay this because all he wanted to do was fight (he always just ignores roleplaying situations and in times of peace, he just wanders into the wilderness to look for game to hunt.
Holy crap, can you blame him? Tell me, did you warn him "hey, this campaign will be set in elf lands, are you sure you want to be an orc? They WILL hate you."


and I think just throw a few mooks at him to stomp on each combat and let him be happy. Strangely, I do not think throwing ghosts at him so he complains even more will enhance the gaming experience.
This is also a good idea. Let him mow down some weak enemies and he'll feel good about himself.

[deathbymanga]

But the two are linked. Your one example just so happened to be one where you totally whiffed the rules, but it's also one where the Cleric showed up the Barbarian, and your idea to teach the Barbarian a lesson is going to be another one where the Cleric is uniquely well equipped to deal with the situation and the Barbarian isn't.

This isn't fixing the problem; this is hitting someone in the same spot over and over again. You've already stated that combat--his bailiwick--is a small part of the campaign, so why are you plotting to take even that away from him?

Let's be clear, as presented this isn't a case of there being ghosts naturally present in the game; the ghosts are there with the intention of messing with the Barb. The former is fine. The later, not so much.

I specifically brought up the ghosts with the Cleric before hand to make sure he'd step back and let the ghosts do their thing. It's also more often just the stupid **** that happens to the guy with none of it being anyone's fault but the environment. like the racism of the elves, or one time a Huge-sized Bear's corpse fell onto him, and he was risking suffocation, but he could have just gotten out if he hadn't rolled a nat 1, and needed everyone else to help him out of it. but he took it as an excuse for why he needed even more strength so that he'd never get squashed again

[Deophaun]

I specifically brought up the ghosts with the Cleric before hand to make sure he'd step back and let the ghosts do their thing.
::pounds head on desk::

It's also more often just the stupid **** that happens to the guy with none of it being anyone's fault but the environment. like the racism of the elves,
Which is actually you; you are the environment.

or one time a Huge-sized Bear's corpse fell onto him, and he was risking suffocation, but he could have just gotten out if he hadn't rolled a nat 1, and needed everyone else to help him out of it. but he took it as an excuse for why he needed even more strength so that he'd never get squashed again
You say he's new, you should have explained "Take 10" to him.

[deathbymanga]

Gee, I wonder why :smallconfused:. While a situation like that can be a fun RP challenge, it can also be irritating as hell. The guy probably feels like he wasn't adequately warned and is now useless in noncombat situations. (To say nothing of the fact that he's playing a Barbarian and is largely useless outside a fight). Regardless of whether or not that's true, I suggest offering him the chance to roll up a new character who can fit the current setting a bit better.

EDIT:

Holy crap, can you blame him? Tell me, did you warn him "hey, this campaign will be set in elf lands, are you sure you want to be an orc? They WILL hate you."


This is also a good idea. Let him mow down some weak enemies and he'll feel good about himself.

It's not set in elf lands, the campaign is just currently in the elf lands because they as a party chose to go there. They had a bunch of other nations to go to and are now currently heading to the mountains where the Orcs live.

I intentionally wrote the racism of the elves to be light. They aren't hostile to Orcs, they just look down on them and insult them and over charge them. He barely if ever bothers to roleplay with non-racist characters anyway so it's not like its much of a difference. and his major complaint against the elf racism is the overcharging. which shows he doesn't care about it IC just OoC since he spends more money

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's not set in elf lands, the campaign is just currently in the elf lands because they as a party chose to go there. They had a bunch of other nations to go to and are now currently heading to the mountains where the Orcs live.

I intentionally wrote the racism of the elves to be light. They aren't hostile to Orcs, they just look down on them and insult them and over charge them. He barely if ever bothers to roleplay with non-racist characters anyway so it's not like its much of a difference. and his major complaint against the elf racism is the overcharging. which shows he doesn't care about it IC just OoC since he spends more money
You said he "doesn't like roleplaying in an environment whre people are racist towards him" which is eminently reasonable. I repeat, let him make a new character. He's clearly not having fun with his current one, and it makes perfect sense that his current character would storm off in disgust from a place where he's forced to wear magic mind control gauntlets. And steer him towards something with more social/utility special abilities; if he can use his class features or spells for noncombat things he might be more interested in them.

[Crake]

I didn't even know he was breaking the rules. this isn't a case of favoritism, I don't care how powerful any of my players get. I threw a litch at them at lvl 1. The Cleric used the Sculpt Spell metamagic to encompass the entire water (he was a 5th level caster at the time and had created a 20ft radius of water and then looked up how much damage a single instance of holy water did to undead. He also used a scroll to cast it (Sculpt spell in the scroll as well) so that bypassed the casting time, so he was in the right

Just a quick note: Sculpt spell only applies to area spells, which bless water is not, it is a targeted spell, and the target being a flask of water touched, so that would not have worked. Secondly, casting from a scroll uses the same casting time as the spell would normally be, so no, the cleric was not in the right at all.


thanks for addressing the real issue. We all bring up the problems we have with the guy as he has his fits. The biggest issue at the moment was I had created a fun plot about the guys traveling to the elven capital and learning some weird stuff regarding the land loosing holy energy despite continuous attempts to sancitfy the land. however the Barbarian wanted to leave right away because they were racist (charging 20% more to any orc) and he had to wear bracers of pacifism (10 str max and calm emotion on self when emotions go high). he refused to try and roleplay this because all he wanted to do was fight (he always just ignores roleplaying situations and in times of peace, he just wanders into the wilderness to look for game to hunt.

Something you'll learn really quickly as a DM is that some players simply do not enjoy roleplaying in circumstances that so overwhelmingly challenge their character. You make it sound like the players had a choice about going to the elven lands, is that true? If you were planning on having the campaign be set in the elven lands, did you warn the player about his character being an orc? If the players truly have agency, then the orc player is certainly well within his rights to leave the elven lands. What reason does he have to stay in a place that is filled with people who hate him? If I was in his place, unless there was a VERY good reason to stay in character, I would have had the orc character never even consider going to the elven lands.

You need to understand, as a DM, that what you find fun, cool and interesting, does not necessarily line up with what your players find fun, cool and interesting. Ask yourself, if the players were instead in the orc lands, and all the natives treated ALL the other characters like crap, and treated the orc character as family, do you honestly, sincerely think that the orc player would balk at the idea of roleplay? Or is it perhaps the situation that he is in that leads him to that attitude?

[deathbymanga]

Just a quick note: Sculpt spell only applies to area spells, which bless water is not, it is a targeted spell, and the target being a flask of water touched, so that would not have worked. Secondly, casting from a scroll uses the same casting time as the spell would normally be, so no, the cleric was not in the right at all.



Something you'll learn really quickly as a DM is that some players simply do not enjoy roleplaying in circumstances that so overwhelmingly challenge their character. You make it sound like the players had a choice about going to the elven lands, is that true? If you were planning on having the campaign be set in the elven lands, did you warn the player about his character being an orc? If the players truly have agency, then the orc player is certainly well within his rights to leave the elven lands. What reason does he have to stay in a place that is filled with people who hate him? If I was in his place, unless there was a VERY good reason to stay in character, I would have had the orc character never even consider going to the elven lands.

You need to understand, as a DM, that what you find fun, cool and interesting, does not necessarily line up with what your players find fun, cool and interesting. Ask yourself, if the players were instead in the orc lands, and all the natives treated ALL the other characters like crap, and treated the orc character as family, do you honestly, sincerely think that the orc player would balk at the idea of roleplay? Or is it perhaps the situation that he is in that leads him to that attitude?

I am a very improve DM. the players started the campaign in the middle of a desert, and after learning how to get out, they all agreed to head to the forrests of the elves because one of them was an elf. they got there, went on some business with a vampire lord running a wine industry and the players being hired to kidnap him. This entire mission was made because 1. the Elven Rogue of the party wanted to join an assassination guild. 2. I had a evil group in my mind that was doing weird experiments involving vampirism, and 3. the wizard of the group had been turned into a vampire spawn (we were working out the template kinks as we played) and wanted to be a full vampire so he needed Vampire Lord blood. So I just took those pieces together and on-the-spot just made a campaign for them/

same with the capital elf plot. the players went hunting owl-bears to make a quick buck and please the barbarian who needed to kill stuff. I decided to randomly make up some thing about a gnome with a parcel for the Elven Royalty. They traveled there and delivered it. I made up a bunch of random plot stuff including a punk group of teenage necromancers acting like 80s punks do. The cleric asked by they were able to keep raising the dead even though the clerics should be able to sanctify the grounds, so I just bull****ted a plot about how the ground refuses to stay holy. so i just went with it and made a plot about that.

[CharonsHelper]

Assuming that the cleric, as a veteran player, actually does know the rules halfway decently - I'm calling out that he's a big fat cheater. None of those things work anything like that at all.

The other option is that he actually has no freakin' clue what he's doing (but is badly interpreting the rules to make himself far more powerful).

[Deophaun]

same with the capital elf plot. the players went hunting owl-bears to make a quick buck and please the barbarian who needed to kill stuff. I decided to randomly make up some thing about a gnome with a parcel for the Elven Royalty. They traveled there and delivered it.
So wait... the bracers of incompetence were part of the plan to please the barbarian?
http://i.imgur.com/u8oz3bx.jpg

[flappeercraft]

so, I dm a weekly campaign at my college and one of the players is relatively new to the game, but is incredibly insecure about failure, so he's been working so hard to make his barbarian incapable of taking damage and dealing rediculus amounts of damage himself. We all just grown because he's not ver fun, but he's a friend so we put up with him, but he's always complaining about anything inconveniencing his character (like being a full orc in a kingdom of Elves who are racist towards orcs (He should be greatful the didn't flashmob him and actually let him into the capital)). He's got amazing AC, but **** Touch AC and no saving throws, and I want to teach him a lesson on minmaxing, so when i get back to college after break, i plan on sending some Ghosts his way to attack the party.

However, i don't think this will really work, so does anyone have any thoughts on how to deal with a player who can't seem to just enjoy a campaign and has to feel powerful at all times

Throw different challenges in some of which he can excel at and some of which he won't be able to do jack in or some in which he can sorta do something but not too much. For example, chances are that he won't be able to do a thing against bat swarms (I have heard of a 10th level optimized barbarian dying to one which is insane), incorporeal creatures, miss chances, ray of dizziness/slow, etc are all ways to counter. But also put something in which he can excel at while others in the party are limited seriously to not be too biased like golems or creatures with real high SR/Saves

[John Longarrow]

He conjrued the water above the heads of the vampires high enough that the water would still be above their heads on his next turn, then blessed the water before it fell on them, making it holy.

Just to be clear, he conjured the water over 600 feet (200m) above their heads and cast bless water on it as it fell?

Gravity =9.8m per second per second.

[The Glyphstone]

I think the OP has already acknowledged that the holy water incident was a mistake, and won't be repeated.

[Deophaun]

I think the OP has already acknowledged that the holy water incident was a mistake, and won't be repeated.
Won't be repeated, yes. A mistake?

The Cleric used the Sculpt Spell metamagic to encompass the entire water (he was a 5th level caster at the time and had created a 20ft radius of water and then looked up how much damage a single instance of holy water did to undead. He also used a scroll to cast it (Sculpt spell in the scroll as well) so that bypassed the casting time, so he was in the right

And I just recognized another thing: 20ft radius?

Effect: Up to 2 gallons of water/level

...Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large—possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles...

...One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds.
A CL5 gets you 10 gallons in--at most--1.25X3 cubic feet, so that's a little less than a 1' radius, not 20.

At this point, it's almost piling on, but the amount of things wrong is truly impressive.

[AnachroNinja]

OP seems a little defensive about things, which is kind of understandable I guess. The main issue seems to be running a rules lite, rule of cool style game and, from the Barbs perspective least, you seem to screw him with improv actions quite a bit.

Let's go with an obvious example. Short of it being involved in some bizarre mechanical trap, there are no rules for a bear corpse falling on a player. I'm betting it was a post defeat, huge creature falling dramatically type thing. The rules don't support that. You just had a body fall on him and it probably seems to him like it was just to screw with him and embarrass.

The holy water thing was so many layers of wrong that it's not even worth touching on, but I will note that you're actively collaborating with the cleric player to artificially make an encounter more difficult to negatively impact the barb player. Even from the outside looking in, that makes you look like a bit of a prick who is playing favorites.

And yeah, I would have slaughtered the guards that tried to put mind control nerf bracers on my character.

[flappeercraft]

there are no rules for a bear corpse falling on a player.

Actually, in Complete warrior there is a table for damage from falling items by weight, in addition there is also falling item rules that they deal 1d6 damage per 10ft fall with a 20d6 cap but that's only for the fall not weight. In the descriptions of bears their height and weights are included so with that you could get the damage received from that.

[AnachroNinja]

Right, but to the best of my knowledge there are no rules anywhere that SAT enemies fall outside their square when they die or in any similar situation. So again, barring some crazy bear dropping trap that he set off, having a bear fall on him seems pretty arbitrary and directed at the player.

[John Longarrow]

Hm... Better way to get the Barbarian's PLAYER into the game may be to talk to him OOC, let him know that how people acting towards him is going to change, and then when the party gets to the Orc area let him see the elf get treated like he was in the elvish lands?

I am guessing that the OP is not really a min maxer but more someone who keeps bringing up what the rules say when your trying to go with what feels right for your setting. Trying to hit him in his weak spots won't change anything. Let him bring the pain / enjoy being in an area where his RP can be useful is probably the best bet for a bit. Let him shine, let him see the other players be at a disadvantage, and let him see that one or two failures isn't all that big of a thing.

Maybe he can watch player X have some bad luck for a while. Let him watch how player X handles is so he can learn more socially acceptable ways to deal with his insecurities?

[Arbane]

OP: Stomping the Barbarian will just tell the player that he hasn't minmaxed enough yet. It is unlikely to produce any behavior you think you want.

Shredding opponents as quickly as possible is kind of a barbarian's mission statement. Getting mad at them for that is like getting mad at the Cleric for casting spells.

[Pugwampy]

I kinda started like that . All I cared for was the next fight and i half roleplayed . Yes i was also a Half Orc Barbarian . I killed my armour and even nerfed DR just to have extra damage.
Look he is there for your cool fights dude . If you want to make him happy throw him a nice fight . Something to chop up and he will be good for hours . Thats his magic button .

If your DM style is min fighting max rp / story I suggest you remind him the Barbarian wont have much fun . Perhaps he should make a new character.

When he complains about plugging up holes remind him there is no such thing as a perfect character . Either he is good at one thing only which is dishing out damage or he cross trains and nerfs his awesome fighter to a diseased doggie . There is no right or wrong way .

It does not matter how good he is because the dice gods will always make him their bitch . Remind him that there are bad dice roll days .

[Karl Aegis]

Have you given your player enough things to headbutt? If I made a character whose entire purpose was to get elves to whine at them I would go out of my way to find priceless elven art and drive my face through as many of them as possible. Either before or after I slam them down on top of the elven merchants who overcharged me for necessary gear.

Eventually, I may get an entourage of headbangers to follow me around town.

[stanprollyright]

So lemme get this straight...

Newish player makes a Barbarian for OP's campaign.
Player plays like a normal barbarian. Doesn't roleplay much and wants to hit stuff all the time because that's what he's good at.
OP picks on newer player while letting his other player get away with some ridiculous rules-breakage.
Newish player thinks he's playing the game wrong, so he minmaxes his Barbarian to compensate.
Party goes to an elven village, where OP makes everyone racist against the barbarian and forces him to wear "**** you" bracers.
Player gets frustrated with this turn of events; ultimately tries to minmax harder?
OP makes a thread specifically to bash player, planning to throw ghosts at him to "teach him a lesson."
Player is still friends with these people, for some reason.

[Mehangel]

I like so many in this thread was partially sympathetic to the GM, but the more of the thread I read, the more I side with the player who played the barbarian.

[CasualViking]

"I'm a ****ty GM who keeps repeating the same mistakes. How do I **** over the new guy even more?"

[GilesTheCleric]

Hey, not everyone starts out as a pro, 5-star GM. We all make mistakes and learn from them. I know that even after ~four years of GMing, I'm still learning better ways to engage with my players and make things more fun for them. Maybe we can constructively help the OP to see their player's POV, and give them useful tips on how to improve from there.

[Mystral]

Hey OP, if you're still listening: Send your new player over to this forum. We'll happily support him in his roleplaying education (char optimisation as well as character play), and it would be nice to hear his side of the story, too. :)

[Calthropstu]

Place 2 encounters in 1 session, one where the barbarian shines, and one where he's about as effective as an 8 year old wielding a great axe.

Explain to him about party dynamics and how some encounters are handled in different ways with different party members able to different things.

[Karl Aegis]

Don't forget the loot!

[Jormengand]

and one where he's about as effective as an 8 year old wielding a great axe.

I think we can say that's comprehensively already happened. Repeatedly.

[AnachroNinja]

Since the OP has posted elsewhere about a hundred times, I'm inclined to think he didn't like what we had to say and may not be coming back. Granted, we might legitimately be judging him unfairly from his perspective. This kind of thing is always hard to judge from a distance. Then again, maybe he'd just rather pretend he never posted. Who knows.

[Mordaedil]

It's just kind of rare that when presenting a viewpoint about how someone is being really unresonable, you just somehow manage to convince everyone else that you are the unreasonable one instead.

Like, how bad can you be at presenting your argument, when the argument you present makes you look like the unreasonable one? At least in most circumstances, his own actions would seem really reasonable, but the barbarian player would seem like an ******* player, but then we'd hear from the barbarian perspective and we'd hear things from his perspective and we'd see some sort of middle-ground.

Unless this person is actually the barbarian player, pretending to be his own DM, to argue his case from his perspective as if he was seeing it from his DM's perspective.

In which case, okay? You don't have to lie to us to make us take your side?

I'm just very confused now.

[Segev]

The proposed solution - making ghosts attack to teach him a lesson - will backfire horribly. It will confirm to him that he still isn't strong enough. It will magnify his insecurities. If he (correctly, as it turns out) concludes that this encounter was specifically designed to teach him a lesson, the lesson he will take away is either a) "The GM is out to get me" or b) "I have ignored my touch AC; I will have to improve that."

When attempting to teach through trials, it is important to ask yourself, "What is the lesson I am trying to impart?" Then ask yourself, "How will this trial impart that lesson?"

If you WANT him improving his touch AC, this is an excellent way to teach that lesson. I'll be honest, other than "he's trying to min-max a warrior type," I'm not sure what he's doing that you're upset by. And I really don't know what lesson you even WANT to teach him.

It seems to me that you would be better served by talking to him OOC about changing his character to something that will do what he wants in the game. Either a whole new PC, or maybe he gets a hat of disguise that lets his half-orc look like an elf. Or even gets killed and reincarnated as an elf. That would remove the racism aspect. Maybe he'd have more fun then.

It may also help to talk to the table OOC. Admit you screwed up in allowing the "holy water rain" trick, and lay out the rules and what they really are. Apologize to the table for your mistake. (This is important; if you do this, it minimizes the chance your players will feel accused of wrongdoing.) If the Barbarian gets smug, agree that he was right. Give him this win. If you're fair, he is more likely to trust you in the future. If you're constantly ragging on him even when he's right, he's going to feel like you're against him, personally.

And yes. Plan your encounters to include things that a traditional warrior-type is actually useful against. If you're unwilling to do that, talk to him about changing characters. Apologize for not telling him what kind of campaign you're running, and explain why what you're running is just not a good fit for what he's built, then help him adjust his character or build a new one.

I would go for "adjust his character." The cleric should be able to buff him, in the short term, for specific encounters. And it should be more effective than the cleric directly fighting. In the long term, proper gear should set him up for this.

[icefractal]

This is actually a great example of how you need to be careful when going "rule of cool" or otherwise freeforming it. Some players are going to be closer to the GM's wavelength, so their plans will sound better and their ideas will sound cooler. Unless you make a conscious effort to be fair, then "common sense" (as adjudicated by the GM) will favor some players more than others.

[Zanos]

Actually, in Complete warrior there is a table for damage from falling items by weight, in addition there is also falling item rules that they deal 1d6 damage per 10ft fall with a 20d6 cap but that's only for the fall not weight. In the descriptions of bears their height and weights are included so with that you could get the damage received from that.
He didn't take damage, he had to roll a check to lift it off of himself. Even if it was a brown bear(1800 lbs), he would only need 20 str to push it off of himself. Not tremendous considering he's a 100% orc barbarian.

So yeah, he screwed the Barbarian again by making up rules on the spot.

This is actually a great example of how you need to be careful when going "rule of cool" or otherwise freeforming it. Some players are going to be closer to the GM's wavelength, so their plans will sound better and their ideas will sound cooler. Unless you make a conscious effort to be fair, then "common sense" (as adjudicated by the GM) will favor some players more than others.
This is why I have some distaste for freeform systems. I have a vampire with 5 dots in charisma and 5 dots in intimidate(the maximum) in a WoD game with a specialty in staredowns, but people are only ever rarely afraid my character because he's a well-dressed old guy. As we all know, well-dressed old men are never portrayed as intimidating.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is why I have some distaste for freeform systems. I have a vampire with 5 dots in charisma and 5 dots in intimidate(the maximum) in a WoD game with a specialty in staredowns, but people are only ever rarely afraid my character because he's a well-dressed old guy. As we all know, well-dressed old men are never portrayed as intimidating.
To be fair, that's less a "freeform system" problem than a "GM ignoring the rules" problem.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Not sure if the OP is reading this or not but here is my 2 cents:

All DM's are going to make mistakes, no one is perfect period.

Main Issue: The Barbarian is partially to blame in as much as sometimes you should go with the punches of a game. No DM should have to build an entire game or change a game to please 1 player unless its a 1 player 1 DM game. The Barbarian player is in the right though in many ways. A Barbarian would fight against and not want to wear bracers that nerf him no matter the racial BS behind it. I am playing a Barbarian in a current campaign and would have reacted the same way to that elven city. As for a players wanting to get stronger or more AC or to plug his weaknesses, what is the problem? ALL people real or imaginary want to improve themselves and fix their weaknesses. There is nothing wrong at all with wanting to make your touch AC better. If you have an encounter that shows your weakness that why not strive to improve that in the future. Now that being said, it is how you go about fixing it that matters. If the player is sitting at the table bitching and whining the entire time 1 of two things is possible. 1- The DM is an Ass and is rubbing it in the player's face all the time. (SEE the GHOST encounter to teach a lesson here) or 2- The player is just a jerk and a cry baby. The reality and truth is somewhere in the middle of those two I am going to guess. You are friends for a reason. The Barbarian may not be the best in social situations which can lead to some really embarrasing moments and combats a DM was not expecting. Just go with the flow. So the main issue is you are both at fault and need to learn that its a game to have fun.

Secondary Issue: Free Form rules and the Cleric incident. 1- The idea of dropping holy water on a bunch of vampire spawn is awesome! Mechanically or not the visual of holy water appearing in mid air and falling burning them is one directly out of a Blade movie and anything with Wesley Snipes it therefore awesome! The mechanics of D and D especially 3.5 failed to take reality into effect on a lot of occasions. It is ok for a DM to fudge them or change them for story purposes or for cinematic style awesomeness. Sometimes I think we focus to much on the rules and less on the fun. That being said the rules are a great guideline. It is ok to stray from time to time and allow something not technically possible to happen for a great bit of fun and overall player enjoyment. You must not do this to the point in which players stop having fun. If you manipulate things so that it is totally against one player this is going to cause problems with no reasons.

Third issue: Combat and Ghosts: 1- It is ok to challenge your party and make encounters that go against the strengths of the party. This being said you should never set up a combat to teach a lesson to a player. This causes animosity and bad feelings and makes a game not fun. That is the most important part. That being said combats should have consequences. A bad die roll or bad crit and a player character can and should die. I am running a game where do to some crits and things we have had three player deaths. Although it is a mix combat and RP game. the combats are mostly very challenging to the players, not all, sometimes I through a fluff combat in there so they players destroy the enemies and feel really awesome. :) Just watch out for making combats to be challenging and making them so that a single player suffers. Again the game is fun. let it be fun.