Ender series?

[Winterwind]

I am a huge fan of Ender's Game - it easily qualifies as one of my top three favourite books. I also quite enjoyed Speaker For The Dead and Ender's Shadow, though neither had the same impact as the first novel. (actually, given that Orson Card seems to hold very different views than myself, from what I know about him, it's quite astonishing these books resonated so well with me, but they did nevertheless)

Now, the logical thing to do would be to read the rest of the series - but I have read some fairly poor reviews of Xenocide and Children of the Mind, some of which actually went as far as to claim these books could retroactively devaluate the former ones. Which is why I hesitate from getting them.

So, anybody out there who read them and would care to state their opinion on these books? And what about the later parts, like Shadow of the Hegemon, or whatever it's called?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I loved the entire series of both branches. The last two of the Ender's bit was pretty weird and seemed much separated from his usual feel, but I didn't mind all too much. Now, the Bean split, it harkens back to the feel of the original. Also, the next book coming out ties the Bean series with the Ender series, so I'd suggest reading them all.

How do you tie in two series separated by millenia you might ask? Gotta read and see :smallwink:

[Siwenna]

Xenocide and CHildren of the Mind are weird. Like, really, bizarrely metaphysical. For me, they also ruined alot of Ender's character. They're interesting enough but they have a different approach and focus than the first two books. I wouldn't recommend you read them.

I guess I would recommend the Shadow books. To be honest, I regret reading them, but that's because of a pet peeve of mine. I liked Ender's Shadow and Shadow of the Hegemon, but really disliked what the later two books did to a few of the characters. I doubt most people would mind though. The thing with the Shadow books is that you really have to read all of them for it to make sense. It's not like with the Ender books where you can just stop after Ender's Game or Speaker for the Dead and still have a complete storyline.

[Winterwind]

Yeah, what I've read (and re-read, and re-re-read, and - you get my drift :smallwink: ) so far was awesome (though the pacing in The Speaker of the Dead might have been just a tick faster, and I didn't like how Bean somewhat deevaluated my favourite character - which would be Ender himself - in Ender's Shadow. Still, great books, both of them).
And, yes, the fact how much time passes between the books is simply astonishing. The solution is fairly straight-forward as science-fiction goes, but the way it is presented really shows how marvelous this actually is. No wonder nobody ever even considers the thought of who Ender really is. :smallbiggrin:

So you're saying that Xenocide and Children of the Mind are worth reading, after all?

EDIT:

Xenocide and CHildren of the Mind are weird. Like, really, bizarrely metaphysical. For me, they also ruined alot of Ender's character. They're interesting enough but they have a different approach and focus than the first two books. I wouldn't recommend you read them.That's sort of what I heard, and what I'd like to avoid. I already did not really like what Ender's Shadow did to Ender, and what I read about the former two sounded even worse.


I guess I would recommend the Shadow books. To be honest, I regret reading them, but that's because of a pet peeve of mine. I liked Ender's Shadow and Shadow of the Hegemon, but really disliked what the later two books did to a few of the characters. I doubt most people would mind though. The thing with the Shadow books is that you really have to read all of them for it to make sense. It's not like with the Ender books where you can just stop after Ender's Game or Speaker for the Dead and still have a complete storyline.Does this "what they did to a few of the characters" have something to do with Ender all of a sudden behaving like an arrogant, not-really-all-that-competent jerkass suddenly, per chance? (Yes, I know that's exaggerated, but it's the sole thing that annoyed me about an otherwise awesome book)

[Athelis]

I read Ender's Game a few years back, great book, I started reading the second one, but never really got into it, I'll have to try again, I didn't know there were so many novels in the series though.

[Siwenna]

So you're saying that Xenocide and Children of the Mind are worth reading, after all?

If you're really into the Ender plotline, I'd read them. But if you really love Ender (and a few other people's) personality and character, then you might want to avoid it.


Does this "what they did to a few of the characters" have something to do with Ender all of a sudden behaving like an arrogant, not-really-all-that-competent jerkass suddenly, per chance? (Yes, I know that's exaggerated, but it's the sole thing that annoyed me about an otherwise awesome book)

No, that bothered me in Ender's Shadow, but Ender doesn't appear in the later SHadow books, just his mention. It's mostly with Bean, Peter Wiggin, and Petra (who was my favorite character.)

[alanajoli]

I haven't read Children of the Mind yet, but I ate Xenocide up with the same sort of fervor with which I've read the other Card books. I tend not to read him too often, because I know as soon as I pick up one of his books, I'm basically not going to be good for much of anything but reading that novel until I finish it. ;)

[Flakey]

But if you really love Ender (and a few other people's) personality and character, then you might want to avoid it.

Ender's age doubles from the 14 year old kid he ended the first book, compared with his age at the start of the second. No wonder some aspects of his personality has changed.

If you liked Speaker of the Dead you will like Xenocide, but the pacing remains the same as Speaker. Xenocide goes more into mixing his Folk on the Fringe style into Ender, so you get as people say more metaphysical as the series goes on, but its still a worthwhile read.

Card for me is one of the few current authors that make his aliens, alien, and not as its dubbed a "person in a latex suit".

[Flakey]

I didn't like how Bean somewhat deevaluated my favourite character - which would be Ender himself - in Ender's Shadow.

I do not entirely agree with this. Admitedly Bean worked out what was really going on, but you have a hyper intelligent street kid, verses a hyper inteligent kid that was protected, steered, and lied to throughout his life, so he would not recognise it.

The other part. Bean doing the hidden work in the simulators just goes to show even more of how the training regeime ****ed over Ender.

I think both books combined show that the military did not have the courage of their own convictions. They said they needed a Mazer but with more humanity and love, but in the end showed that they distrusted those parts of Ender, and tried to turn him into a Razer clone, by cutting him off from his life. So badly did they mismanage this they almost killed him.

Mazer said at one point that he never fought better, when Ender was falling apart. I was of the opinion when I read that, and was reinforced when I read Shadow that he could have been even better if they pushed Ender as the person he was after he recovered from the lake, and not isolated him when he got to Command.

[Siwenna]

Ender's age doubles from the 14 year old kid he ended the first book, compared with his age at the start of the second. No wonder some aspects of his personality has changed.

Yes, and his personality does change from Ender's Game to Speaker for the Dead. I think it is a good, positive change. But I felt that the change from Speaker for the Dead to Xenocide was a negative change. In CHildren of the Mind, in particular, Ender became rather annoying.


If you liked Speaker of the Dead you will like Xenocide, but the pacing remains the same as Speaker. Xenocide goes more into mixing his Folk on the Fringe style into Ender, so you get as people say more metaphysical as the series goes on, but its still a worthwhile read.

I thought Xenocide and CHildren of the Mind were decent books, if only to tie up some loose ends. But I can easily see how someone could dislike the later two books while loving Speaker for the Dead. I guess I would recommend them, just for the storyline (which is pretty neat,) but WInterwind should be prepared to dislike them.

[Kurald Galain]

You should probably read them anyway to make up your own mind about them.

Me, I love Xenocide, but CotM not so much. I didn't Like Ender's Shadow, but SotH is great. YMMV.

[DomaDoma]

I've only read Speaker for the Dead, so I couldn't tell you about that branch, but I'd definitely go onward with the Shadow series, particularly if the Locke and Demosthenes thing was your favorite part of Ender's game, as it was mine; a lot of it has the same feel.

[Green Bean]

I enjoyed both Game and Shadow, but when the series expanded, I liked the Shadow series more. The Speaker for the Dead branch was well written, but I enjoyed the more relatable problems Bean and Petra had to deal with.

[TheRiov]

While I ENJOYED these series immensely, my favorite OSC books are actually his Alvin Maker series.

For those unfamiliar, its an 'alternate history' of the period after the American Revolution leading up to and including the American Civil War--as if folk magic, Native American spiritualism, etc were all full powers. Dowsing, warding, etc are all real talents, and the fall in conflict with the teachings of the Church. These changes have a profound impact on the development of the nation. Napolean is not just a charismatic leader but actually has the power to convert others. Native Americans can draw upon the strength of the earth to run litterally for days at horse+ speeds silently, etc) Ben Franklin is regarded as a 'wizard'

Alvin Miller (Later Alvin Smith and Alvin Maker--remember last names of the period were a function of Trade. His Father was a Miller so that was his name. He is becomes a Blacksmith so earns the name Alvin Smith--etc) is the Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, and is more gifted than all others. Unlike most he doesn't have just one talent, but seems to encompass them all. But in the end his real talent is making. The ability to change the nature of things.

The Other most important character is Peg (her last name escapes me at the moment) She is a Torch --someone who can see possible futures and to some extent guide their paths.


I've heard that the series is in someway related to Mormon beliefs (OSC is a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints) but I have yet to see it.

Anyways, the series is excellent, and far less ....out there .. than the final books in the Ender Series. Far more readable.


By the way: For you writers (And GMs out there! all GMs should be writers first!) OSC has written a fantastic book on How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy--easily the best book on the subject I've read.

[Indon]

While I ENJOYED these series immensely, my favorite OSC books are actually his Alvin Maker series.


Same here, actually.

I never quite finished the Shadow series. I blame that on already knowing how Bean's decendents end up in the Ender series.

[Ozymandias]

Speaker was my favorite book for a long time (2-3 years). I liked Ender's Game when I read it in elementary school, but I sort of retroactively thought it was immature until I reread it a couple of months ago. I still don't think it's as good as Speaker, but I realize that it's quite a bit deeper than I read into it back then.

I like quite a few of Card's short stories too, actually.

[ravenkith]

To be honest, while I loved Ender's Game, I couldn't get past the next book in the series when I first tried to read it-it was just too different from what I wanted.

Obviously, I loved the 'Ender's Shadow' line of books, because it was more of Ender's game.

You have to remember, though, that the Shadow books are all told from an almost Alien point of view...I mean, whatever else Bean may be, he has gone beyond human beings...he's been altered at the genetic level.

While Ender is hyper intelligent, Bean is super-intelligent...and, as told throughout the books, has been kept alive only through unending paranoia and distrust.

So the picture Bean paints of Ender is how he interprets Ender's actions and words, while the story we have from Ender is made up of his recollections of the event, as he wrote them up for posterity.

Bean's role in the command structure was to act as a safety valve for all the others...if the stress became too much for one of the other, more human children, Bean was there, like a supercomputer, to cover for them, because he was intelligent enough to learn from all of them, and be able to copy each of their individual styles, even though he was never trusting enough to be given complete trust by the others in return. He wasn't charismatic enough to overcome the effects on others of his own distrust. It took a rare person to see past his flaws.

Ender was...unique and very special, in that his intelligence was extremely high, without damaging his empathy with others...which is what enabled him to be a great commander, 'another Mazer Rackham'.

Look at the rest of the wiggin family for more evidence of this underlying philosophy of card's: that with greater and greater intelligence, more and more empathy is lost...people become nothing more than tools. In the ender universe, empathy and intelligence are tied together in an inverse relationship.

Achilles is also demonstrative of this trait...and Bean himself, despite not being strictly human, finds it almost impossible to form emotional attachments...those that he does form, few and far between as they are, are deep and lasting.

Card is often more complex than other's give him credit for.

[Winterwind]

If you're really into the Ender plotline, I'd read them. But if you really love Ender (and a few other people's) personality and character, then you might want to avoid it.I see.
Sounds like I really might want to avoid it, but then, this thread has made me curious...


Ender's age doubles from the 14 year old kid he ended the first book, compared with his age at the start of the second. No wonder some aspects of his personality has changed. I liked Ender as presented in Speaker of the Dead. He is much more at peace with himself and the world (well - at the end of the story, anyways), and both his empathy and his humanity really shine through.
It's just that I heard the later books ruin the character, and some folks in this thread seem to believe so, too.

If you liked Speaker of the Dead you will like Xenocide, but the pacing remains the same as Speaker. Xenocide goes more into mixing his Folk on the Fringe style into Ender, so you get as people say more metaphysical as the series goes on, but its still a worthwhile read.I wouldn't mind it getting metaphysical, that's fine with me; I would mind if my favourite characters got wrecked.

Card for me is one of the few current authors that make his aliens, alien, and not as its dubbed a "person in a latex suit".Yes, absolutely. And I admire him for that (though not as much as for the humanity his characters radiate).


I do not entirely agree with this. Admitedly Bean worked out what was really going on, but you have a hyper intelligent street kid, verses a hyper inteligent kid that was protected, steered, and lied to throughout his life, so he would not recognise it.That he worked out the truth is okay with me. What really annoyed me was the scene when Bean and Ender meet for the first time, when Ender becomes commander of the Dragon army, because Ender seemed so horribly unsympathetic and unintelligent from this perspective (sure, he did say those things in Ender's Game, too, but there it seemed reasonable for him to say that; in Shadow, this struck me as very out of character for him).

The other part. Bean doing the hidden work in the simulators just goes to show even more of how the training regeime ****ed over Ender.Uh...? Sorry, I guess it's me being unintelligent now, but I can't make out what you wanted to say here?

I think both books combined show that the military did not have the courage of their own convictions. They said they needed a Razer but with more humanity and love, but in the end showed that they distrusted those parts of Ender, and tried to turn him into a Razer clone, by cutting him off from his life. So badly did they mismanage this they almost killed him.

Razer said at one point that he never fought better, when Ender was falling apart. I was of the opinion when I read that, and was reinforced when I read Shadow that he could have been even better if they pushed Ender as the person he was after he recovered from the lake, and not isolated him when he got to Command.Yes. That's true. And they distrusted Bean just as much.


I thought Xenocide and CHildren of the Mind were decent books, if only to tie up some loose ends. But I can easily see how someone could dislike the later two books while loving Speaker for the Dead. I guess I would recommend them, just for the storyline (which is pretty neat,) but WInterwind should be prepared to dislike them.

You should probably read them anyway to make up your own mind about them.I think that's what I'll do, then. Read them to make up my own mind and for the storyline, but be prepared for the worst.
I think if they were trying to ruin Ender's character for me I could disregard them anyway; I like him too much already. :smallsmile:


I've only read Speaker for the Dead, so I couldn't tell you about that branch, but I'd definitely go onward with the Shadow series, particularly if the Locke and Demosthenes thing was your favorite part of Ender's game, as it was mine; a lot of it has the same feel.I will. :smallsmile:

...Whereas I feel bad for answering to such a long and elaborate post in so few words, I can hardly say more than "you are absolutely, perfectly right.". (well, except I liked Speaker of the Dead very much, but that's a matter of taste, not being right or wrong).
I would argue one point though. You say Bean has been altered to the point of being alien. Now, I don't know Shadow of the Hegemon, but in Ender's Shadow the main point of the book seemed to me to prove that he was not altered beyond the point of not being human anymore.

[Kitya]

I, personally, like all the Ender books... both the originals and the Shadows... The thing is, Speaker, Xenocide, and Children are just books that are totally different than the rest of the series. Ender's Game was written for all ages. Those three books, were not. He was writing it from a much more adult viewpoint and brought in a lot of psychology. The only reason I understood most of what he was talking about was because I took a few Psych and sociology courses in college.

I don't think Ender's character was ruined in those books... he's changed. he's grown up, he has different viewpoints about things. The other problem is, Ender was kept in a bubble most of his life and never really got to experience how to deal with other people the way he should have. This has coloured how he deals with other people. He does come across as somewhat selfish and immature because he never learned how to interact properly. As a child, we can overlook this, especially since in the first book we get to see his thought patterns and see that he really IS trying. But when we see those same actions in Shadow we think he's a total jerk because we're not seeing the thoughts behind it. The problem is, as he grew older, we become more intolerant of selfish behavior, just as we do in reality. But no one ever told him that that's not proper behavior. He just doesn't know.

I guess the best description would be the one my Hubby gave. Ender's Game and the Shadow books are fluff... they're fun to read but you don't really have to think about them. Speaker, Xenocide, and Children have a bit more meat to them. I mostly read fantasy fluff. I freely admit that. However, occasionally a good meaty fantasy is really good to read too. Those three tend to make many people uncomfortable, I'm not totally sure why, but sometimes it's probably because it hits too close to home. Other times, just because it's such serious subject matter and they're not expecting it.

Hope you enjoy them, I don't read them often, but when I need a good thought provoking book, that's when I dig them out.

[Flakey]

Uh...? Sorry, I guess it's me being unintelligent now, but I can't make out what you wanted to say here?



Ender was...unique and very special, in that his intelligence was extremely high, without damaging his empathy with others

Sorry but I will expand this line. What I was trying to say was, as Ravenkith said, in the included quote, they wanted an empathatic Mazer to fight for them.

This is were the damage was done, and why he did not know what Bean was doing. Ender built a whole style of training and command in school. A good part of the empathy building was done in the little one on one sessions he held, in training, and afterwards. I do not think there is anyway that Ender would have missed the degradation in his "friends", or Bean's growing influence, in that case.



which is what enabled him to be a great commander, 'another Mazer Rackham'

They said they wanted an empathatic Mazer, what in happened in reality they tried to rely on the empathy Ender had built up in school, and then turn Ender into a new Mazer. Wrecking Ender, and several of his friends, in the process.

Thinking about it, Shadow contradicts not the ability of Ender, but why they turned Peter down. It was stated it was because he was too aggressive, when now it seems it was because Peter was too cynical of his fellow humans.

[SurlySeraph]

I liked Xenocide and Children of the Mind, even though they were kinda weird and both got a little nonsensical near the end. It was a bit hard to follow what was going on, and at times it seemed like what was going on just wasn't very significant.

However, I hated the Ender's Shadow series. It just ruined Bean's character for me; the whole point of him was that he was parallel to Ender in his youth, and Ender was unable to stop himself from imitating the people who had been cruel to him. When you take away the parallel, Bean just seems superfluous.

[ravenkith]

Peter was still too aggressive, in that, he didn't care who his opponents were at all. The people running the program were worried that he wouldn't care enough about other humans for them to focus his attentions outwards (i.e., on the buggers). With Peter, they were always worried that his personal ambition was too great.

Which of course, turned out to be precisely the case.

I mean, even though they rejected him for battle school, he still affected things on a global scale.

[chiX0r]

Over all I really liked both sets of book. Ender's Game kind of changed my world perspective when I first read it in 5th grade. And I totally got teary eyed at the end of the last Shadow book that came out.

I do think there's some continuity issues with the characters. I don't think the Peter in the Ender books and the Peter in the Shadow books seem like the same character at all. Albiet some time has passed and maybe Peter has grown up a little, but still. I'm really glad Card wrote more about Petra, though, she was my favorite character, too.

[DraPrime]

I liked the series at first, but after rereading the books a bunch of times I realized that the author has actually done a fairly poor job at trying to imitate how geniuses think. Ever since then I just can't help but notice flaws in all the books.

[Icewalker]

Well I can tell you this much: Reading later books in a series CAN retroactively make the originals worse. Similar to having a really bad movie version of a book because the characters keep popping into your head.

I have only read Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, mainly due to similar reviews. Ender's game is really an amazing book. Shadow gives a nice take on the story from a different angle, and I like how it turned out.

Damn, I need to go reread Ender's Game...

[Winterwind]

I liked the series at first, but after rereading the books a bunch of times I realized that the author has actually done a fairly poor job at trying to imitate how geniuses think. Ever since then I just can't help but notice flaws in all the books.Care to give an example? I didn't notice such a thing - then again, I don't really know how geniuses think, and actually was not aware that there was a uniform way of thinking for geniuses. Is it?

I, personally, found Ender's thinking processes rather convincing. Though I admit I'm neither a psychologist nor have that much experience with people. And Bean is an entirely different matter anyway - he is supposed to think in ways different from any living human being.


Well I can tell you this much: Reading later books in a series CAN retroactively make the originals worse. Similar to having a really bad movie version of a book because the characters keep popping into your head.Fortunately, in my case, my original imaginations usually remain prevalent for the most part. Even the Lord of the Ring movies did not change the images in my mind significantly. Still, it is a difficult consideration whether to risk spoiling everything by later books, or go for it for the story.
I think I will take the risk though, after all. When I come to it, I mean - I have so much left to read yet...