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DiscipleofBob
2007-07-16, 08:19 PM
I actually have a few months until school starts to make this character, but I'm replacing my character in a game I'm in. I used to play a Ninja/Master Thrower who, while being really awesome on paper, was nothing but a laughing stock ingame due to a DM who threw everything crappy at me and a tank who liked to boss everyone around. Coupled with this and our healer left, I decided to find a way for my old character to leave and create a new one.

It's an Eberron campaign, and we're at level 15. I've already decided on Changeling and I want to do something with Mystic Theurge. Cleric who worships the Traveler (domains Travel and Trickery) sounded most appropriate. Preferrably, I'd like to utilize whips due to a feat I found (forget the name of it) which basically lets you deliver touch spells through a melee attack. ((The character concept basically stemmed from a conversation I had with the DM where he said whips sucked, and I just have the bad habit of going against authority.))

I want a wide variety of spells so I can be a utility character, but I've only played a caster once before and I could really use some tips on making the character. I'm not sure which arcane casting class I should use, nor what spells would be the best. Any tips?

SilverClawShift
2007-07-16, 08:34 PM
Well, the best Mystic Theurge you can probably make is an Archivist/Wizard/MT (Archivist is from Heroes of Horror, and is seksi).

A big issue with the MT is that you're reaching your spell levels late, which isn't as big a deal as people like to make it out to be (casters are frighteningly powerful if played right, and you'll still make most other classes look silly in terms of what you can do), but it is something to take into consideration.

It seems logically sound to go 5/5/10 (whatever two caster classes you have 5, and mystic theurge 10) but don't. That gets you 8th level spells in both classes, but there is a HUGE difference in power between 8th and 9th level spells.
If you're going to level 20, go 3/7/10. Accept that one of the two classes will only have 7th level spells, because getting 9th level spells in the other is important. And really, having 9th level speellcasting in one class, and 7th level spellcasting in another is nothing to shy away from. I'd recomend taking your arcane caster to level 7, which will get you 9th level arcane spells and 7th level cleric spells. That is very awesome.

Time Stop, Heal, Greater Restoration + whatever nasty surprises you want to set up for your enemies. In the blink of an eye (to everyone else) you are suddenly prinstine and undamaged, and the battlefield has become very hostile for them.

Archivist is basically an INT based cleric. That means you don't have to worry about two primary stats (but you do have to carry a minimum of two spellbooks, as archivisits cast divine spells from a prayer book like a wizard casts arcane spells). You can also learn paladin spells, in addition to the cleric spells. I think technically you can learn druid and ranger spells too.

So Wizard 7/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10. Unless I'm forgetting something. That'll net you the ability to do just about anything you feel like doing. You'll be the groups Batman AND their healer.

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-16, 08:41 PM
Thanks a bunch. I'll have to look at Heroes of Horror. I think one of my friends has it.

Is the Archivist able to spontaneously turn prepared spells into cure spells like a Cleric, and does he get domain spells?

SilverClawShift
2007-07-16, 09:01 PM
Nah, he can't turn prepared spells into cure spells spontaneously, which is a little bit of a weakness. But considering you have arcane spells, you can dedicate more of your archivist spell slots to healing spells and still feel comfortable doing so.

A wizards article I read said they can learn domain spells, but the book doesn't say anything about it (that I can remember), and a sane DM would rule against it.
But really, they don't need domain spells. A large chunk of domain spells are just arcane spells, which are only really noteworthy because a divine caster can use them. Since you're an arcane caster TOO, you CAN learn domain spells. They'll be called "Wizard spells" :smalltongue:
In fact, the only 'domain only' spells I can think of are in the book of vile darkness. I'm probably forgetting some though.

Whatever tradeoff you're accepting from not being a cleric is completely worth it to make INT your primary casting stat for two seperate caster progressions. Plus Paladin spells. Use your higher level archivist slots for healing, and your lower level archivists slots for buffing (some paladin buffing spells are pretty sweet. Blessing of Bahamut (I think it's in the Book of Exalted Deeds) gives you damage reduction 10/-. Only for a few rounds per level, but still. "Hah, I'm a barbarian now. A barbarian that can cast Time Stop".
Then use your wizard levels to be the swiss army knife. The right combo of spells, and you can fight better than a warrior, breeze through trapped and locked dungeons like a ghost fast enough to embarass a rogue, and since you're part cleric, you can HEAL UP when anything goes wrong.

Holy Sword? 4th level paladin spell that gives you a +5 enchantment +2d6 damage to evil creatures. Dm might not let you get away with that though. The spell doesn't say the sword only works for paladins, because it's assumed only paladins are casting it. By the RAW, you can do it though.

Douglas
2007-07-16, 09:01 PM
Is the Archivist able to spontaneously turn prepared spells into cure spells like a Cleric, and does he get domain spells?
No spontaneous cures and he doesn't get domains the way a cleric does, but his casting stat is intelligence (same as wizard) and he can learn divine spells from any list, including all domains.

Thinker
2007-07-16, 09:10 PM
No spontaneous cures and he doesn't get domains the way a cleric does, but his casting stat is intelligence (same as wizard) and he can learn divine spells from any list, including all domains.

I get the impression he'd be better off just being an Archivist and then taking some PRC that advances divine casting.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-16, 09:13 PM
I get the impression he'd be better off just being an Archivist

Which is why a sane DM would say "No learning domain spells".

Browse enough books, and almost ANY spell you want is probably in a domain SOMEWHERE. You might be learning it at a different level or something, but guh.

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-16, 09:15 PM
Okay.

This is all if my DM approved it. I know that the only books he's directly allowing are the PHB, DMG, and the Complete series. Anything from the PHBII, SpC, etc. has to be run by him and the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness are outright banned. I'll have to ask about Heroes of Horror though.

Thinker
2007-07-16, 09:15 PM
Which is why a sane DM would say "No learning domain spells".

Browse enough books, and almost ANY spell you want is probably in a domain SOMEWHERE. You might be learning it at a different level or something, but guh.

Are you also going to say that any sane DM would disallow Artificers? I doubt you have the authority to say what "any sane DM" would allow or disallow.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-16, 09:20 PM
Even if he doesn't allow archivist, I stand by everything I suggested. Just play a wizard 7/cleric3/Mystic Theurge 10 and go by the same mentality. "I'm a wizard who can heal" along with some cool divine only stuff.

Also, if you're a cleric/wizard... you should totally worship Boccob :smallbiggrin:. It might not be the most strategically powerful option, but if you play this character right, you'll make any non-casters look SILLY, so a little flavor won't hurt you.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-16, 09:21 PM
Are you also going to say that any sane DM would disallow Artificers? I doubt you have the authority to say what "any sane DM" would allow or disallow.

Why the hostility?

I'm just saying that giving archvists domain spells freely makes them powerful in a way that makes wizards look like they're foam padded.

Thinker
2007-07-16, 09:24 PM
Why the hostility?

I'm just saying that giving archvists domain spells freely makes them powerful in a way that makes wizards look like they're foam padded.

I just get edgy when people throw around things like "all of x" or "everyone" because it implies they know something no one would. I didn't mean to seem hostile towards you so much as hostile towards the idea of "everything".

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-16, 09:30 PM
Even if he doesn't allow archivist, I stand by everything I suggested. Just play a wizard 7/cleric3/Mystic Theurge 10 and go by the same mentality. "I'm a wizard who can heal" along with some cool divine only stuff.

Also, if you're a cleric/wizard... you should totally worship Boccob :smallbiggrin:. It might not be the most strategically powerful option, but if you play this character right, you'll make any non-casters look SILLY, so a little flavor won't hurt you.

Well, it's Eberron, so different deities.

I was going to go with the Traveler personally, with Travel and Trickery. That way I get Bluff and Disguise as class skills (helpful for any changeling).

PinkysBrain
2007-07-16, 10:04 PM
How about Bard 7/cleric 3/Sublime Chord 1/MT 4? You get 4th level divine spells and 7th level arcane ... and you get whip proficiency without having to waste a feat.

Only problem is that you can't cast heal, which is necessary for in combat healing. You can always buy a minor schema of heal or two and perhaps some scrolls of heal and mass heal though ... at 15th level you have a lot of gold. Hell, just make sure everything dies fast and rely on out of combat healing :) (Which is courtesy of wands of lesser vigor and CLW.)

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-16, 10:23 PM
How about Bard 7/cleric 3/Sublime Chord 1/MT 4? You get 4th level divine spells and 7th level arcane ... and you get whip proficiency without having to waste a feat.

Only problem is that you can't cast heal, which is necessary for in combat healing. You can always buy a minor schema of heal or two and perhaps some scrolls of heal and mass heal though ... at 15th level you have a lot of gold. Hell, just make sure everything dies fast and rely on out of combat healing :) (Which is courtesy of wands of lesser vigor and CLW.)

What book is Sublime Chord in?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-16, 10:52 PM
[QUOTE=DiscipleofBob;2892048]What book is Sublime Chord in?[/QUOTE

Complete Arcane

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-16, 11:02 PM
It's an Eberron campaign, and we're at level 15. I've already decided on Changeling and I want to do something with Mystic Theurge. Cleric who worships the Traveler (domains Travel and Trickery) sounded most appropriate. Preferrably, I'd like to utilize whips due to a feat I found (forget the name of it) which basically lets you deliver touch spells through a melee attack. ((The character concept basically stemmed from a conversation I had with the DM where he said whips sucked, and I just have the bad habit of going against authority.))

I'm not sure which arcane casting class I should use, nor what spells would be the best. Any tips?

Ur Lords and Ur Priests are PRCs in Eberron.

A simple build using 32 point buy is a UA/D20 SRD Variant Domain Mage (To Taste and Concept providing an extra fixed domain spell) - 6, Ur Lord -2, MT -7 which gives your PC level 7 arcane spells and a single level 9 divine spell (Miracle) with stat boosting items and a template like Planetouched +0 with a +2 bonus to Wisdom.

Your PC should have 3 level 7 arcane spells and 1 level 9 divine spell (Two if you can use an open feat to pick up an extra domain since they normally do not have domains) at level 15.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-16, 11:21 PM
Evil and using the most broken variant class in UA.

Ramza00
2007-07-16, 11:41 PM
Why the hostility?

I'm just saying that giving archvists domain spells freely makes them powerful in a way that makes wizards look like they're foam padded.

And almost no dms would give archivist domain spells "freely" they would have to earn them, hunt down people, etc. Almost no dm would simply allow a lvl 12 warlock to start an item crafting business with an archivist.

Ramza00
2007-07-16, 11:48 PM
Archivist can be located free here as an excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)

And I can see an Archivist/Wizard/MT working real well with a changeling "worshipping" the Traveler. An archivist doesn't need any gods, he draws the powers from his prayerbooks and his worship can be to all gods, none (drawing from divine sources were the god get their powers bypassing the gods), a select few/one, or to which ever god will grant his spell/he fakes devotion in return for power.

A face who feigns worship and devotion when in reality his power is from himself. A changeling, a person who changes faces at will due to want and need. A man who honors and is inspired by the trickster god but does not worship him persay. Flowable, moveable, adaptable.

Iku Rex
2007-07-17, 07:44 AM
DiscipleofBob, some more information would be helpful.
(Form from the character builder thread. I know some are answered already.)

Do you have requirements, preferences, or no limits on the following:
* * * * *a. Books that can be used to build your character
* * * * *b. Race (including any Level Adjustment Limits)
* * * * *c. Class
* * * * *d. Ability Scores (fixed or generation method)
* * * * *e. Alignment
* * * * *f. House Rules: are there any other requirements or unusual rules imposed on you/your character (e.g. no single level dips, no item creation feats, Track is being given to you as a class skill, etc.)
* * * * *g. Concept: what requirements or preferences do you have regarding concept?
* * * * *h. Other: Is there any other information that might help someone make your character all she can be (e.g., what are others playing, the setting is largely wilderness, the DM is threatening to use a lot of undead, or the campaign will be heavy on combat and light on intrigue)?

One more: Will you start at exactly level 15, or will you have some XP to spare. (For item creation.)

EntilZha
2007-07-17, 07:53 AM
For a Mystic Theurge, you can't go wrong with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. You'll have to take it once for your arcane class and once for your divine class, but it's worth it to be able to use your Hit Dice as your caster level, rather than your actual spellcasting level. It makes a difference when your Clr 3/Wiz 3/MyT 2 is able to throw an 8d6 Fireball rather than a 5d6 one, or cast a Cure Moderate Wounds spell that heals 2d8+8 damage rather than 2d8+5.

Telonius
2007-07-17, 10:04 AM
If your DM doesn't mind homebrew, you might consider this one that my DM and I cooked up. It was originally in the Homebrew section but I think it's been archived now. It's more of a crafting-oriented PrC, intended to be a Cleric/Artificer combination, so it might not fit your concept exactly. But anyway, here's the compilation:


Deus ex Machina

Though the realms of healing and magical engineering might seem worlds apart, they are not always so. Occasionally, a Cleric's studies may leave him curious about the crafting of magical items. Likewise, an Artificer may find a greater appreciation of their gods through their crafting, and take up the cloth. Such a divine crafter is known as a Deus ex Machina. The name was reportedly first used as a joke among Gnomish Artificers, who derided the Deus ex Machinas because of their lack of focus. However, the Deus ex Machinas took it as a badge of pride, and the name stuck.

While not particularly common in any race, Deus ex Machinas are most often Gnomes or Dwarves. Deities stressing any sort of craft or engineering are likely to have Deus ex Machinas among their servants; some serve as chief architects for the construction of great temples. Among the more warlike deities, Deus ex Machinas may be called on to serve as armorers, weaponsmiths, and magewrights to their holy orders. It is extremely rare for a druid to become a Deus ex Machina. Although nothing specifically prevents a Druid from becoming one, its reliance on technology and metalworking is often at odds with the Druidic philosophy.


Hit Die: d4
Requirements:
Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 6 ranks
Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks
Craft (any) 6 ranks
Spells: Ability to cast second level Divine spells
Infusions: Ability to use second level Infusions

Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Special: A Deus Ex Machina adds any Class Skills gained through a Cleric Domain to the class skill list.

Skill Points Each Level: 4 + Intelligence Modifier
Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature|Craft|Spellcasting
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Improved Craft, Divine Item Creation, Holy Insight|80|+1 Divine spellcasting, +1 Artificer
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Improved Artifice|100|+1 Divine spellcasting
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Improved Craft|125|+1 Artificer
4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Improved Artifice|150|+1 Divine spellcasting, +1 Artificer
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Improved Craft|200|+1 Divine spellcasting, +1 Artificer
6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Improved Artifice|250|+1 Divine spellcasting, +1 Artificer
7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Improved Craft|300|+1 Artificer
8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Improved Artifice|350|+1 Divine spellcasting
9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Improved Craft|400|+1 Divine spellcasting, +1 Artificer
10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Improved Artifice|500|+1 Divine spellcasting, +1 Artificer
11th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Improved Craft|700|+1 Artificer
12th|+6|+4|+4|+8|Improved Artifice|900|+1 Divine spellcasting
13th|+6|+4|+4|+8|Improved Craft|1200|+1 Divine spellcasting, +1 Artificer
14th|+7|+4|+4|+9|Improved Artifice|1500|+1 Divine spellcasting, +1 Artificer

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: a Deus ex Machina gains no weapon or armor proficiencies.
Divine Spellcasting: At every level except 3rd, 7th, and 11th, the DEM gains improved spellcasting in his Divine class yada yada
Artificer Infusions: At every level except 2nd, 8th, and 12th, the DEM gains improved spellcasting in his artificer class yada yada
Craft Reserve: At every level, the DEM gets a craft reserve (as the artificer class feature)
Improved Craft: At every odd level, the DEM gets a bonus Item Creation feat he qualifies for.
Divine Item Creation: The artificer's divine caster class levels, artificer levels, and DEM levels stack for qualifying for an Item Creation feat that requires a certain caster level. Ex: 3 Artificer/3 cleric/6 DEM qualifies for Craft Staff.
Holy Insight: Levels of Deus ex Machina stack with levels of Artificer for purposes of Artificer Knowledge checks.
Improved Artifice: At every even level, the DEM can choose an ability from the following menu. Each item has a prerequisite number of combined DEM and artificer levels. Each ability can be take only once. Some abilities appear more than once, and can be take once for each time they appear.
Level|Feature
4 | A bonus feat from the artificer's bonus feat list
4 | A metamagic feat
4 | Turn/Rebuke Construct
5 | Retain essense (as the artificer's class ability
7 | Expanded Crafting
8 | A metamagic feat
9 | Metamagic Spell Trigger (as the artificer's class ability)
9 | Metamagic Spell Completion (as the artificer's class ability)
9 | Skill Mastery (as the artificer's class abilitiy)
10 | A bonus feat from the artificer's bonus feat list
12 | A metamagic feat

Turn/Rebuke Construct: a Deus ex Machina of any alignment may Turn, Rebuke, Bolster, or Command any Construct (with the exception of Living Constructs), in the same manner a Cleric can Turn, Rebuke, Bolster, or Command undead. Instead of your Cleric level, use the sum of your Artificer levels and your Cleric levels to determine turning damage. Any Constructs that would be "destroyed" have their hit points reduced to zero; they are deactivated rather than obliterated. Selecting Turn/Rebuke Construct replaces any other turn/rebuke ability you might have (such as Turn/Rebuke Undead or Turn/Rebuke Elementals).

Expanded Crafting: You gain increased Craft Reserve. You are treated as a DEM one level higher for the purposes of your craft reserve. Ex: 3 Artificer/3 cleric/4 DEM has a craft reserve of 200, rather than 150. At 14th level of DEM, instead of a craft reserve of 1500, you have a craft reserve of 2000.

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-17, 10:12 AM
DiscipleofBob, some more information would be helpful.
(Form from the character builder thread. I know some are answered already.)

Do you have requirements, preferences, or no limits on the following:
* * * * *a. Books that can be used to build your character
* * * * *b. Race (including any Level Adjustment Limits)
* * * * *c. Class
* * * * *d. Ability Scores (fixed or generation method)
* * * * *e. Alignment
* * * * *f. House Rules: are there any other requirements or unusual rules imposed on you/your character (e.g. no single level dips, no item creation feats, Track is being given to you as a class skill, etc.)
* * * * *g. Concept: what requirements or preferences do you have regarding concept?
* * * * *h. Other: Is there any other information that might help someone make your character all she can be (e.g., what are others playing, the setting is largely wilderness, the DM is threatening to use a lot of undead, or the campaign will be heavy on combat and light on intrigue)?

One more: Will you start at exactly level 15, or will you have some XP to spare. (For item creation.)

a. PHB, DMG, and the Complete books (save the new Scoundrel, Mage, and Champion books) are all completely legal, as well as the Eberron PHB. Everything else has to be approved by the DM (who considers at least half the material from other books broken, especially spells).
b. Well, I'm going for changeling, but if for some reason it becomes more of a hindrance than a helper, than any of the main Eberron races would work. Was also briefly considering daelkyr half-blood and the DM didn't seem to mind.
c. Like I said, going for Mystic Theurge. What divine and arcane classes to choose I could use help on. Personally, I like the fact that with the Cleric I can prepare any spells I want but change them to Cure spells on the go, plus one of the Cleric domains I picked (Trickery) gives me Bluff and Disguise as class skills. VERY important for a changeling. The archivist seems to be pretty interesting too, though.
d. Ability scores: 28 point buy, plus the increases from leveling. How I distribute them depends directly on which classes I take.
e. Alignment: Well, if I was a cleric devoted to the Traveler, I'd be CG, possibly CN.
f. House rules: Not much to speak of, just everything has to be run by the DM, who's pretty strict and sees a lot of source material as broken.
g. Concept: The idea I had was to use whips and a specific feat I found (which I ran by the DM and he approved) that allowed me to deliver touch spells through melee attacks, including the whip's 15-foot reach. More importantly though, I just want to be able to do all the healing with my divine class (and we need a lot of healing, usually just on the tank though), and still have spells left over to help in combat and other situations.
h. Well, the DM has been pretty varied so far. We've faced everything from constructs in the Mournlands, Karnathi undead, to Quori. We just finished a campaign story-arc by blowing up the House Cannith forge, so I'm not sure which direction the campaign will go from here. Good chance it'll go epic-level though. What I think we'll see a lot of casters (based on the DM's personality), and monsters with low AC but high HD (only way he can provide a challenge to the Duskblade/Platinum Knight tank).
Also, to get an idea of our party, we have the above mentioned tank who nearly dies every encounter (not because he's a bad tank, but because he literally absorbs all the damage), a shifter rogue, a human bard (who's increasingly absent), and a kalashtar seer.

I don't think I'll have extra XP, but plenty of gold (maybe more than typical starting gold based on how much treasure we get).

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-17, 10:21 AM
For a Mystic Theurge, you can't go wrong with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. You'll have to take it once for your arcane class and once for your divine class, but it's worth it to be able to use your Hit Dice as your caster level, rather than your actual spellcasting level. It makes a difference when your Clr 3/Wiz 3/MyT 2 is able to throw an 8d6 Fireball rather than a 5d6 one, or cast a Cure Moderate Wounds spell that heals 2d8+8 damage rather than 2d8+5.

Was planning on taking it actually. Twice. :)

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-17, 10:22 AM
If your DM doesn't mind homebrew, you might consider this one that my DM and I cooked up. It was originally in the Homebrew section but I think it's been archived now. It's more of a crafting-oriented PrC, intended to be a Cleric/Artificer combination, so it might not fit your concept exactly. But anyway, here's the compilation:


:smallbiggrin: I would consider playing this class if for no other reason than the rest of the party fears constructs more than anything.

Droodle
2007-07-17, 10:44 AM
How about Bard 7/cleric 3/Sublime Chord 1/MT 4? You get 4th level divine spells and 7th level arcane ... and you get whip proficiency without having to waste a feat.Why bother with the MT levels at all? A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 (Or, better yet, a Bard 5/World Speaker 5/ Sublime Chord 10) utterly outclasses the Mystic Theurge. He has no MAD, loses no caster levels, and can draw his spells from both the Bard and Sorcerer lists. Unless you are trying to do something silly like build an Arcane CoDZilla, you are much better off just going with the Sublime Chord.

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-17, 12:45 PM
Why bother with the MT levels at all? A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 (Or, better yet, a Bard 5/World Speaker 5/ Sublime Chord 10) utterly outclasses the Mystic Theurge. He has no MAD, loses no caster levels, and can draw his spells from both the Bard and Sorcerer lists. Unless you are trying to do something silly like build an Arcane CoDZilla, you are much better off just going with the Sublime Chord.

1) I doubt the DM would let me play a bard since we already HAVE one, who's pretty good at his job.

2) I need to be a healer more than an arcane caster.

Droodle
2007-07-17, 01:07 PM
1) I doubt the DM would let me play a bard since we already HAVE one, who's pretty good at his job.

2) I need to be a healer more than an arcane caster.So take some healing. Bards get enough. Seriously, if you are looking for a full healer you're better off playing a straight Cleric. Take a look at the Arcane Disciple (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/class_arcane_disciple.htm) if you want to play a priest who casts both arcane and divine spells. The build is simpler, has unbroken caster progression, and you'll get plenty of access to the best arcane spells.

Jayabalard
2007-07-17, 01:53 PM
I'll never understand the "I know you said you wanted XXX, but you should just dump that and go with YYY, it's better" mentality; it tends to come across as both useless and hostile.

Back to the topic... since you've mentioned spontaneous healing a couple of times; you could just go the spontaneous route with Favored Soul & Sorcerer.

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-17, 02:03 PM
I'll never understand the "I know you said you wanted XXX, but you should just dump that and go with YYY, it's better" mentality; it tends to come across as both useless and hostile.

Back to the topic... since you've mentioned spontaneous healing a couple of times; you could just go the spontaneous route with Favored Soul & Sorcerer.

The spontaneous healing I mentioned was the cleric's ability to turn prepared spells into cure spells. I dunno, I just like the idea of preparing a whole set of utilitarian spells for the cleric and turning them into cure spells if necessary.

Favored Soul was appealing with its monk saves. Unfortunately, there's the problem with the low spell progression and I wouldn't get the later class features anyway if I took MT, which kind of downplayed it a little.

Before I posted this, I was considering between Wizard, Sorcerer, and Beguiler for the arcane class. Wizard has to prepare spells ahead of time (bleh) but I can get as large of a spell list as I want. Sorcerer gets sponaneous casting, but I get a more limited number of spells (not a horrible drawback, but still), and I've played a Beguiler before. Assuming I could get the Beguiler's entire spell list approved, the Beguiler's biggest disadvantage was that anything with a will save would make my spell list useless. ((KOing a small group of Kobolds with Ghost Sound was fun though. :smallbiggrin: ))

Droodle
2007-07-17, 02:11 PM
I'll never understand the "I know you said you wanted XXX, but you should just dump that and go with YYY, it's better" mentality; it tends to come across as both useless and hostile.Well, if you take a look at the Arcane Disciple, you'll notice it pretty much gives him what he wants. Full Divine casting. He can cast any spell in the magic domain. He gets to add one additional Arcane Spell per level to his spell list. He gets a better BAB, better saves, no MAD, and more HP than the Mystic Theurge. And he can cast his spells in armor. All he gives up is Turn Undead (which he would have lost anyway with MT) and his Domains.

Rad
2007-07-17, 02:42 PM
I'll never understand the "I know you said you wanted XXX, but you should just dump that and go with YYY, it's better" mentality; it tends to come across as both useless and hostile.

Back to the topic... since you've mentioned spontaneous healing a couple of times; you could just go the spontaneous route with Favored Soul & Sorcerer.

Both classes get spell levels one level later. You need to be sorcerer4/favoured soul 4 before you can qualify for MT.

You mentioned picking trickery for the domains: remember that the domain powers are only relative to cleric levels. i.e. Bluff is a class skill ONLY for the three levels you take as cleric, but not for all the other levels you take, including MT and other divine PrCs (unless there is a house rule). When picking your domains keep an eye open on whether the domain power is tied to cleric level or not.

If you take cleric, consider divine metamagic! I do not remember if the errata also mentioned it could be used on divine spells only, but it would be worth it. Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) is insanely powerful. If your DM objects to how broken it is my advice would be to take it for Quicken Spell, as your problem is that you have too spells and not enough time to cast them. More fun added if you pick sorcerer as the arcane caster class (but you lose one level before qualifying)
Get some divine feat however since your 3rd level turning attempts are doing no good for you.

One question, however, is: are you really getting to 20th level? If so, are you going on to 21st? That would make very different tactical choices.

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-17, 02:49 PM
Both classes get spell levels one level later. You need to be sorcerer4/favoured soul 4 before you can qualify for MT.

You mentioned picking trickery for the domains: remember that the domain powers are only relative to cleric levels. i.e. Bluff is a class skill ONLY for the three levels you take as cleric, but not for all the other levels you take, including MT and other divine PrCs (unless there is a house rule). When picking your domains keep an eye open on whether the domain power is tied to cleric level or not.

If you take cleric, consider divine metamagic! I do not remember if the errata also mentioned it could be used on divine spells only, but it would be worth it. Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) is insanely powerful. If your DM objects to how broken it is my advice would be to take it for Quicken Spell, as your problem is that you have too spells and not enough time to cast them. More fun added if you pick sorcerer as the arcane caster class (but you lose one level before qualifying)
Get some divine feat however since your 3rd level turning attempts are doing no good for you.

One question, however, is: are you really getting to 20th level? If so, are you going on to 21st? That would make very different tactical choices.

The DM mentioned Divine Metamagic, and I think I'll have room for at least one more feat, so I'll probably go with that. I know I have at least 4 feats reserved just to get the concept I want.

I can only speculate as to how high we're going level-wise. And I don't think the DM knows either. I think we'll be going epic. Not sure.

Droodle
2007-07-17, 02:58 PM
Divine Metamagic is only useable with divine spells. With a Mystic Theurge, though, you really aren't going to get lots of mileage out of it.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-17, 03:02 PM
Well, the best Mystic Theurge you can probably make is an Archivist/Wizard/MT (Archivist is from Heroes of Horror, and is seksi).

So Wizard 7/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10. Unless I'm forgetting something. That'll net you the ability to do just about anything you feel like doing. You'll be the groups Batman AND their healer.

He could make a better PC than Arcivist-3/Wizard-7/MT-10 although it is pretty good build with a few feats.

However it should probably be Archivist -2, PRC-1/Wiz-1, Master Specialist-2/MT-10/Archivist PRC -4 to taste because then he will have access to level 9 Arcane and Divine spells from Archivist giving him a few more options things like having Miracle available plus taking a domain will get him a bonus spell.

Jayabalard
2007-07-17, 03:06 PM
The spontaneous healing I mentioned was the cleric's ability to turn prepared spells into cure spells. I dunno, I just like the idea of preparing a whole set of utilitarian spells for the cleric and turning them into cure spells if necessary.

Favored Soul was appealing with its monk saves. Unfortunately, there's the problem with the low spell progression and I wouldn't get the later class features anyway if I took MT, which kind of downplayed it a little.

Before I posted this, I was considering between Wizard, Sorcerer, and Beguiler for the arcane class. Wizard has to prepare spells ahead of time (bleh) but I can get as large of a spell list as I want. Sorcerer gets sponaneous casting, but I get a more limited number of spells (not a horrible drawback, but still), and I've played a Beguiler before. Assuming I could get the Beguiler's entire spell list approved, the Beguiler's biggest disadvantage was that anything with a will save would make my spell list useless. ((KOing a small group of Kobolds with Ghost Sound was fun though. ))
It certainly has it's downside, since you would wind up losing the highest levels spells (being limited to 7th on one side and 8th on the other). I'm personally ok with that, sinceI tend to favor spontaneous casters over prepared ones, even pseudo spontaneous spells like the cleric cures.

Beguiler sounds like a good match for the fluff that you've mentioned, though I can't tell from your comment whether you liked playing one before and would like to again, or if you want to play something different since you've played one before.


Well, if you take a look at the Arcane Disciple, you'll notice it pretty much gives him what he wants. Full Divine casting. He can cast any spell in the magic domain. He gets to add one additional Arcane Spell per level to his spell list. He gets a better BAB, better saves, no MAD, and more HP than the Mystic Theurge. And he can cast his spells in armor. All he gives up is Turn Undead (which he would have lost anyway with MT) and his Domains.Sorry, I don't see how it gives him either spontaneous cures, or helps him pick the arcane class to qualify for Mystic Theurge with, nor does it contain any suggestions on which spells he should be looking for... if you look at the original post, you'll see that he's decided to go with MT. Offering advice contrary to that once might be acceptable as long as you do so politely, but continuing to do so and (like continuing to suggest that he go with bard after being told why it doesn't fit) is rude and pretty pointless...

Iku Rex
2007-07-17, 03:28 PM
I think a plain and simple Cleric3/Wizard3/MT9 build will be best for your concept. The archivist doesn't seem right for a changeling trickster. You'll want to go Wizard (maybe some prestige class?) after you're done with MT. No changeling should pass up the chance to eventually cast shapechange. :smallsmile:

Suggested ability scores:

Str 8
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 8

Put +1 Wis level 4 and 8, +1 Int level 12.

You probably wanted a higher Cha, but at level 15 skill ranks and magic will easily overshadow the minor skill bonus from Cha. The AC and Reflex save bonus from Dex is more valuable and you can get the Weapon Finesse feat to improve your attack bonus with the whip. Do not sacrifice Con.

Feats: I don't know how the touch-spell-through-weapon feat you mentioned works, but keep in mind that most creatures can't be damaged with a regular attack with a whip.

Some feat suggestions: 2x Practiced Spellcaster, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip (duh), Weapon Finesse, Extend Spell, Improved Toughness (CWar), Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Construct.

Able Learner (Races of Destiny) is technically only available to humans and doppelgangers, but if the DM allows it you'd be able to get more social skills. (All skill ranks cost 1 point to increase, even cross-class ones.)

Random ideas:

A nimblewright (MM2, see update booklet) companion would be fitting. It won't survive long in combat but it's a tireless and loyal guard and partner in crime. Buy or build some gear for it.

In fact, you could go all the way as a construct-master and build an effigy (CWar) (CArc) or some other construct to fight for you as well.

Speaking of effigies, an effigy tentacle whip (ECS 300) would be really cool. You won't need a feat to deliver touch attacks with it and the DM may let you use it without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Buy a Choker of Eloquence (CAdv) to improve your social skills. The voice of the dragon (Drac, SC) spell also greatly improves certain skills.

Edit: A monk's belt, for Wis to AC is a must-have if you don't intend to wear armor.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-17, 04:12 PM
Well, if you take a look at the Arcane Disciple, you'll notice it pretty much gives him what he wants. Full Divine casting. He can cast any spell in the magic domain. He gets to add one additional Arcane Spell per level to his spell list.
Domain spells from Arcane disciple are once a day.

Jayabalard : unless you are a radiant servant of pelor spontaneous cure spells just don't do much in combat at level 15 ... it's Heal or bust in combat (and out of combat you use wands).

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-17, 04:17 PM
VERY good advice guys. Thanks a bunch.

Iku Rex
2007-07-17, 04:47 PM
Domain spells from Arcane disciple are once a day.(He's talking about a homebrew base class named Arcane Disciple.)

Jayabalard
2007-07-17, 04:50 PM
Jayabalard : unless you are a radiant servant of pelor spontaneous cure spells just don't do much in combat at level 15 ... it's Heal or bust in combat (and out of combat you use wands).The OP is the one that brought up the spontaneous cures; for me, I can take em or leave em, though like I said above: I prefer spontaneous casters to prepared casters.

and whether you can use wands to handle healing outside of combat varies from campaign to campaign.

Droodle
2007-07-18, 04:59 AM
(He's talking about a homebrew base class named Arcane Disciple.)It's actually from complete divine.

Iku Rex
2007-07-18, 05:28 AM
It's actually from complete divine.It's actually not.