Any idea what to do about this?

[Reprimand]

I've started attending a local community college and tried to get involved with the table top club there. I started talking about common builds like a mailman, critfishing with kukris, Batman Wizard and even punpun as half joke half coversation. However apparently even mentioning numbers in this club as set off a ton of people. Everyone thinks I'm some terrible person for trying to build a character that works on paper and not just and RP level. I brought up the stormwind fallacy, Meaning that just because I can be good with numbers doesn't inherently make me unfocused or bad at roleplaying. They've essentially ostracized me from club activities and no one will listen to me! I think it's a bit messed up how warped some people's perceptions can be when it comes to this sort of thing. I'd like to play D&D but everytime i try i either make a bad impression or people freak out when I mentioned anything about numbers. I'm not event talking about super optimizied stuff I mentioned punpun as like "I would never play this, but check this out!" My favorite class is the Miniatures Handbook Healer for goodness sake!

Does anyone have any problems like this where you are?

[Particle_Man]

I could see two possible issues:

1) As you have surmised, people might be worried that you would actually build something that would be far too overpowered for the playstyle they are at and feel comfortable with, which would lead to the other players feeling overshadowed unless they engage in an "arms race", which leads to the DM having to keep up which leads to the Timmyverse, which they don't want in their campaigns.

2) Even if you don't play those optimized builds, others might take your words and run with them, leading to the scenario described in #1. (Kinda like why one should not tell certain jokes that target various groups of people - even if you are not going to act on really hurting those groups of people, others listening to your jokes might figure, wrongly, that they now have permission to hurt those groups of people).

I would suggest that you stop talking about those kinds of optimizations, as you are not going to change the minds of this group. I would instead focus on sub-optimal "theme" builds, specifically avoiding the "theme" that happens to also be optimizing. Look at what types of characters other players have and don't make a character more powerful than theirs. Play that healer, for example.

[Afgncaap5]

I would suggest that you stop talking about those kinds of optimizations, as you are not going to change the minds of this group. I would instead focus on sub-optimal "theme" builds, specifically avoiding the "theme" that happens to also be optimizing. Look at what types of characters other players have and don't make a character more powerful than theirs. Play that healer, for example.

Yeah, I'm gonna second this, and not just because I think the Healer is a fun class every once in a while. Different people have different tolerances for certain kinds of optimization talk. At my own table I'm the rules lawyer because I once asked if my character could take the +1 bonus for attacking from the high ground. Every table functions differently and has different conventions, some preferring high powered, high optimization gameplay and others really appreciating the DM putting hard and fast brakes on that kind of thing (DM Fiat is actually fantastic for running games if you have a fantastic DM (but that's a BIG if.))

So... my recommendation is to try limiting yourself to one or two books, and play at a lower power level. (I just had the idea of offering the DM the chance to build a character for you as long as you get to make the roleplaying choices, but that could end up in some weird territories.)

[Tohsaka Rin]

Just explain that you never play in a campaign without running your builds past the DM for an okay first, you should be in the clear.

Also explain that you're fine with altering the build mid-campaign, if the DM thinks a situation has cropped up that they hadn't forseen.

Finally, if that all fails, suggest that they're not very good at role-playing, if the idea of a competent character frightens them. Also imply that they all run nothing but Str 8 halfling fighters, and Drizzt clones. ALSO USE THEIR BONES TO MAKE YOUR BREAD!

Because if they're going to be jerkbags for not giving you a shot after going through the effort to play nice, they're not worth the effort.

[Calthropstu]

Offer to run a game.

After running a game for a while, you'll get invites to play in other games.

Alternatively, come up with an elan type character, something hilarious that people would want to see played and talk about it instead of punpun like characters.

Another alternative: Pathfinder Society or Adventurers League. Play a few games with them and play your elan like character there. Have some laughs, get a table invite, and soon enough you'll have a regular group you are playing with.

[Zombimode]

They've essentially ostracized me from club activities and no one will listen to me! I think it's a bit messed up how warped some people's perceptions can be when it comes to this sort of thing. I'd like to play D&D but everytime i try i either make a bad impression or people freak out when I mentioned anything about numbers. I'm not event talking about super optimizied stuff I mentioned punpun as like "I would never play this, but check this out!" My favorite class is the Miniatures Handbook Healer for goodness sake!

Then why bring it up in the first place?
Most Players are not interested in stuff that is utterly irrelevant to the game (like most if not all TO stuff is). Talking about that might Color you in the perspectives of other People as someone who DOES think this stuff is relevant. And this is a red flag for many People.

There are several reasons for this and it would take more time then I have to talk about everything, sadly. But let me Point out one Thing:

There are always People with a more competative streak then others, even only subconsciously. D&D, as it is usually played, is not a competative game and 3.5's openness and possibilities pointed out by TO will result in a broken game if someone takes it competatively. As a GM who is concerned and responsible for the well-being of the Group, talk about TO stuff adds nothing to the game (because it is irrelevant for a functioning game) but might put People of in one way or the other: some People might get ideas and jump on it, while others might feel pressured for playing "wrong" or "weak" characters when confronted with the possibilities of the System.

Talk about TO stuff is fine within a circle of People who enjoy TO for it's own sake and who understand that is has no relevance for most games. Or in those rare gaming Groups where TO actually IS relevant to the game.

[Calthropstu]

Then why bring it up in the first place?
Most Players are not interested in stuff that is utterly irrelevant to the game (like most if not all TO stuff is). Talking about that might Color you in the perspectives of other People as someone who DOES think this stuff is relevant. And this is a red flag for many People.

There are several reasons for this and it would take more time then I have to talk about everything, sadly. But let me Point out one Thing:

There are always People with a more competative streak then others, even only subconsciously. D&D, as it is usually played, is not a competative game and 3.5's openness and possibilities pointed out by TO will result in a broken game if someone takes it competatively. As a GM who is concerned and responsible for the well-being of the Group, talk about TO stuff adds nothing to the game (because it is irrelevant for a functioning game) but might put People of in one way or the other: some People might get ideas and jump on it, while others might feel pressured for playing "wrong" or "weak" characters when confronted with the possibilities of the System.

Talk about TO stuff is fine within a circle of People who enjoy TO for it's own sake and who understand that is has no relevance for most games. Or in those rare gaming Groups where TO actually IS relevant to the game.

Agreed. Talk about TO stuff is fine after you have been playing in a group for a while. Before you have actually started playing, it is unwise. I showed punpun to my group and we had a few laughs about it. The general consensus was "The GM that allows this is insane." but if I had lead off with that before I even started playing, I doubt I'd be sitting at the table.

[Mystral]

Does anyone have any problems like this where you are?

I've played a few characters that were somewhat above the optimisation levels of my group. I tend to do this, I enjoy having a character that works and can pull his weight.

I have found that most people appreciate such characters when they play a support role, so you might try to do something like this.

You've obviously been putting a bad foot forward, and I'd suggest you approach them by telling them that you respect their playstyle and would like to participate. Don't become argumentative and trot out the stormwind fallacy, just slow down and play what the party needs without taking the spotlight from the rest of the guys.

If they still don't want to take you in as a player, you can always offer to GM for them, but they might think that you are as "extreme" as a gm as you are as a player.

Another thing you should propably do is hang out with them and listen to their game stories and generally have a nice time without pulling the focus of the discussion towards you, your characters or TO.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I got a friend and we like to talk about TO stuff on the side. but when we play in our campaign we dont. the other players dont really care for it. Talking about TO is like showing a cardtrick. yea its funny, but not practical information. I see it like this: We all know tea and teabags. people like tea, enjoy drinking it. There are groups of people who enjoy sitting together one afternoon a week to drink and enjoy tea together. Then one guy shows up, says ''Cool, tea is awsome, look at this!'' and proceeds to lighs a teabag on fire and watches it rise into the air. fun partytrick right? But its not why the group came together.

As others have said. maybe try joining the group with group apropriate behaviour (like sharing a cup of tea) and maybe when conversation goes to weird rules or how to get the most dmg, you bust out the partytricks. Maybe there is soemone in the group who is intrigued, and you guys can enjoy TO together like me and my friend do.

Know your oudience and such.

As for how to play with these guys. Come to them with a fun character idea, not a build or class. And idea for a story or theme wise interesting character, and ask them how you could play that in the group. That lets them show off their idea of how to play the game, and gives you a guideline to how powerfull they want their partymembers to be.

i hope my rantings help you out.

[Calthropstu]

wrong thread

[ExLibrisMortis]

My group has a number of first-time ttrpg players. I'm playing a spell-to-power mantled erudite - not exactly the hallmark of lactose intolerance. I've mentioned and explained some of the broken tricks that can be pulled in D&D, including some StP tricks. The group tells me to shut up when I carry on talking about weird builds, and that's about it. No problems at all.

There is no reason to distrust someone who enjoys the game as a rules system. If the situation is as you describe, you are dealing with a dogmatic anti-optimization group. They are quite common, I think - I've found quite a few when looking for open groups. Such groups are encouraged by some official D&D publications, which take a rather adversarial stance towards metagaming and optimization. The counter-argument - the Stormwind fallacy - is a rather obscure concept in D&D theorycrafting, not nearly as well-known. In a community where theorycrafting itself is looked down upon, mentioning it may even be harmful to your argument, no matter how much sense it makes to us GitP folks.


You're better off organizing your own game, if you want to appreciate the substance of the game 'in the flesh' so to speak (that is, in live conversation).

[John Longarrow]

Does anyone have any problems like this where you are?

Yes but from the other side. The groups I tend to get together with are friends that have lots of stuff we talk about besides just gaming.

Have you talked to any of these people about anything other than D&D? Talked about teachers, classes, what degree who is taking, what events are going on around campus? If you come across as the "D&D nerd" who doesn't seem to have anything going on in their life a lot of people have little desire to talk to you. If you seem to be a normal person who's got plenty going on but that happens to game most people find common ground.

As D&D is a very social game try being social first.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...the Timmyverse...What, using infinite wishes from your fairy godparents for really stupid stuff that backfires on you anyway?

Of course, if all the wishes DO backfire, I guess it's just as well that few of them are for terribly important things.

[John Longarrow]

If your an average kid that no one understands, why would the wishes work?

[Calthropstu]

My group has a number of first-time ttrpg players. I'm playing a spell-to-power mantled erudite - not exactly the hallmark of lactose intolerance. I've mentioned and explained some of the broken tricks that can be pulled in D&D, including some StP tricks. The group tells me to shut up when I carry on talking about weird builds, and that's about it. No problems at all.

There is no reason to distrust someone who enjoys the game as a rules system. If the situation is as you describe, you are dealing with a dogmatic anti-optimization group. They are quite common, I think - I've found quite a few when looking for open groups. Such groups are encouraged by some official D&D publications, which take a rather adversarial stance towards metagaming and optimization. The counter-argument - the Stormwind fallacy - is a rather obscure concept in D&D theorycrafting, not nearly as well-known. In a community where theorycrafting itself is looked down upon, mentioning it may even be harmful to your argument, no matter how much sense it makes to us GitP folks.


You're better off organizing your own game, if you want to appreciate the substance of the game 'in the flesh' so to speak (that is, in live conversation).

Actually, I have run into quite a few people who say Giantitp is taboo. Talking about stuff from here is generally frowned upon in PFS, and trying to use arguments from here in PFS will generally get a large amount of "NO."

It's fun to talk about stuff on here, but bringing this stuff to the table is generally unpleasant.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually, I have run into quite a few people who say Giantitp is taboo. Talking about stuff from here is generally frowned upon in PFS, and trying to use arguments from here in PFS will generally get a large amount of "NO."

It's fun to talk about stuff on here, but bringing this stuff to the table is generally unpleasant.
That's interesting, I'd expect PFS to be open to discussion of the game, being an S and all.

I think that there's no particular thing you can/should do to fit in, at that point. Be true to yourself, you shouldn't have to hide who you are, yadda yadda - even if you like to optimize a bit. I mean, if even talking about GitP stuff (or numbers, as per the OP) is frowned upon, that's a big NO sign for anyone with even a minor interest in theorycrafting.

Maybe I'm just lucky enough to have a group without numerophobia, but I feel that that should be the default for a game like D&D. I mean, with so many number-heavy rules in place, you're kind of waiting for someone to optimize it, right?

[daremetoidareyo]

I've started attending a local community college and tried to get involved with the table top club there. I started talking about common builds like a mailman, critfishing with kukris, Batman Wizard and even punpun as half joke half coversation. However apparently even mentioning numbers in this club as set off a ton of people. Everyone thinks I'm some terrible person for trying to build a character that works on paper and not just and RP level. I brought up the stormwind fallacy, Meaning that just because I can be good with numbers doesn't inherently make me unfocused or bad at roleplaying. They've essentially ostracized me from club activities and no one will listen to me! I think it's a bit messed up how warped some people's perceptions can be when it comes to this sort of thing. I'd like to play D&D but everytime i try i either make a bad impression or people freak out when I mentioned anything about numbers. I'm not event talking about super optimizied stuff I mentioned punpun as like "I would never play this, but check this out!" My favorite class is the Miniatures Handbook Healer for goodness sake!

Does anyone have any problems like this where you are?

I reckon now it's time to optimize the social metagame: I mean only a fool makes Charisma their dump stat. Make your build anyway you want and give it a quirck or an obvious deficiency and then, this is an important step, find someone else who talks about numbers and make fun of them for it. Make sure that other people see and hear you do this. This is a social technique called value signalling.

I assure you, half of the folks there enforcing role not roll play are doing exactly this.

Also, don't name drop I internet message board jargon in person. Just be a quiet about the online forum hopping. Demonstrating this knowledge doesn't impress folks in the outerwebs. I think it gives people something to judge you on, which people are doing non stop. Don't ever name a fallacy in a real life argument. You may be right , but the optics are terrible. Explain how the fallacy works without its name. Simply pretend that you noticed the inconsistency because you're so smart, not because you trained for this exact argument.

People in this group are more about rule intent vs. RAW. So you should be able to ask about edge cases (e.g.natural bond working for urban druids) and the DM will approve so long as it belongs to a thematic concept. Rip off movie or sci fi tropes, and remember to represent the weaknesses of those characters too. This demonstrates that it isn't about numbers, it's about story.

Lastly, don't tell anyone about how they could make their character better. Especially don't volunteer this info helpfully and unasked. You now have a specific rep that you need to downplay.

[ahenobarbi]

Try playing a support (buffer/battlefield control/debuffing(focus in that order)(and no minionmancy!)) character. If you think you can enjoy it. They tend to be easy to accept (because they make others feel awesome so those others will like having the character around).

To sell the idea you might want to ask the group for advice as a start (hey guys I was thinking about playing support, maybe a bard (they tend to be good at it and are perceived as weak). how would you do it?).

[Reprimand]

you are dealing with a dogmatic anti-optimization group.

This sounds most like what I've been dealing with. And it's not just me I have like 2 other people in the group that feel this way too. We've been excluded from the group because we don't share similar opinions, it's almost 100% groupthink if you disagree with the group you're problem. I'm not talking about in game either DM gets the last say I get that I'm talking about out of character interactions with the players. I think it's very sad that a group of adults cannot be more open minded about this sort of thing, I've been harassed and ostracized because I approach a game differently than other players. And people make wild assumptions about me based on a few things. It's not as if all I talked about was high op TO stuff either. These things came up in conversation over the entire 3-3 1/2 month semester.

And I do DM. Most people enjoy my games but I'm an active player killer and I set up encounters to punish poor tactical play so people whose plan A consists of: "I run up and hit it till it dies!" and plan B consists of: "I run away!" tend to die rather quickly because things like trolls have may have a below average intelligence but are capable of basic tactics (rotating people to the front to get hit while people in the back heal from fast healing) and closing off a retreat when players try to run away. The fact that 2 of 8 people complained about they're characters dying in such a manner has apparently led the club leaders to think i run a game were only "powergamers" can possibly exist and everything else just dies in one hit or something, which cannot be further from the truth. They however refuse to listen to me or any of the other 2 players that agree with me. The other 4 either have no opinion or refuse to take a side.

I've been playing either a cleric spamming mass buffs like bless, prayer, mass aid etc or a standard miniature's handbook healer the entire semester. The cleric only died because the DM npc'd my character without my permission on a day I wasn't there and got me killed. I'd be to afraid to try and play something like an illusionist because they didn't seem to read anything about how illusions give saving throws or anything. One player had to reroll his beguiler because a DM thought image spells giving flanking bonuses was "cheesy," or suggestion "doesn't work like that."

[Azoth]

Man do I know how you feel. My current group has a similar impression of me. It doesn't matter what I build.

A few of them have started to see the light that is optimization and are building competent characters now after nearly two years of gaming with me. The others...Well, let's just say it isn't pretty.

I constantly get flack for dipping, ability combinations, making builds SAD, spell usage/combinations, all the things we do here as second nature.

Best advice, keep the optimization talk to an absolute minimum even when asked. Most people might be curious as to how you have made a "Warrior" Charisma SAD, but they don't want a reffendum on it. The only other advice I can give is to watch your numbers. Starting with a 20, or pushing to be above a 36 by end game might throw people.

[icefractal]

Luckily I'm not in any groups that act like that. If I was though, I'd be really tempted to stealth-optimize and act oblivious about it. Make a character where all the choices could be explained as 'the normal thing to do' (straight Druid, frex), or as something made on flavor grounds.

Then if anyone started to get suspicious/accusatory about it, just act bemused that they would bother 'running the numbers' that way. :smallamused:

Then I would probably think better of it and find another group instead, no point making a stink where it isn't needed. But people who act holier-than-thou about not optimizing do get my goat a bit.

[Troacctid]

Offer to run a game.

Then why bring it up in the first place?
Most Players are not interested in stuff that is utterly irrelevant to the game (like most if not all TO stuff is). Talking about that might Color you in the perspectives of other People as someone who DOES think this stuff is relevant. And this is a red flag for many People.
I'll second both of these.

[KillianHawkeye]

My only advice is to stop trying to hang out with people whose approach to the game is completely incompatible with your own. Seriously, you're at like a 90-degree angle with these people. Why would you even want to game with people like that anyway? Take the one or two people who agree with you and start your own group.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Go to a gathering of these scrubs, find the head scrub, tear his heart from his chest and eat it in front of the rest, declare yourself their new ruler. :belkar:


In all seriousness though, it seems unlikely that you will find yourself enjoying the game if you play with people that are only nominally playing D&D as your description suggests to me these people are. Roll 20, PbP, and perhaps a meat-space group unaffiliated with the college group are probably going to better suit your gaming needs.

Though if you do go with my facetious opening suggestion, make sure you live-stream it so that the internet can enjoy it.

[Gruftzwerg]

You have to bear it ^^

I have a similar situation in my group. I DM very very rarely and play most of the time. And I am the guy that knows most rules by RAW & RAI. In the beginning the others get annoyed and the DMs sometimes irritated. It's a hard duty and sometimes people will dislike you for that.
But you have to keep calm and still be friendly and do your job (about numbers and rules & stuff). If you do it right, people will acknowledged your wisdom.
ATM it's still a running gag that I am the "bad-rule-guy" but the situations where my group (Players and DMs) just directly asks me, how this and that will be handled or should be solved by rules, increases by every session.
Maybe you'll face a time where you should step back for a while (I did this due to much rule stress). It needed only 2 games with broken/missing rule interpretation until they did get why rules and numbers are so important.

on a side-note: Due to our XP with rules, we also started a pure storytelling campaign without any D&D rules at all. Everybody got a single unique ability (like mutants in x-men) to play with and we where ready to take off.
- the Dm tells the story
- the players tell what they intend to do
- the Dm gives the results of the attempt
It turned out to be a great fun for a few game sessions we had. Maybe something like this will help your group to get some pure "storytelling" satisfaction. Once satisfied, maybe they become more rule friendly. Players will learn, that it's better to have dice & rules, instead of a DM to solve the results of their actions. DMs will learn, that it will bring less problems and frustration when dice & rules deny a player a certain action instead of him being the ass the needs to say "no, doesn't work".

On the optimization part:
I really like it too, but I needed to wait for a long time until our group and DMs where ready to make use of it. They tasted power and now they become slowly addicted. Your time will come and they will beg you tell them all the cool stuff to optimize their character into nirvana.
You just have to be smart and do it all step by step. First you wait for a lvlUp and try to convince only one player to make a better (optimized) choice that will have a strong impact on certain situation (combat / social).
Next lvlUp you do the same. Now the players should start to line up for some tips for the next lvlUp.
just play a bit psychological warfare with your friends ;)

[ExLibrisMortis]

When it comes to encouraging people to pick more powerful choices, the most convincing arguments I've found are "at least this feat lets you do something [new]" (I think that was Track versus Survivalist) and "have you used [this feat] in the past three sessions?" (that was about Endurance). They're not number-based arguments, but appeals to 'fun', with the assumption that using your special abilities is fun.

[Particle_Man]

And I do DM. Most people enjoy my games but I'm an active player killer and I set up encounters to punish poor tactical play so people whose plan A consists of: "I run up and hit it till it dies!" and plan B consists of: "I run away!" tend to die rather quickly because things like trolls have may have a below average intelligence but are capable of basic tactics (rotating people to the front to get hit while people in the back heal from fast healing) and closing off a retreat when players try to run away.

If players don't like it when you do that, then stop doing that. Have your trolls be stupider and mindlessly flail away without rotating to the front and without blocking pc retreat.

If you find players that do like it when you do that, run the game only for those players and warn new players.

Similarly, if there are two or three people that think the way you do, then have the game with those two or three people. Seems like you will be happier.

Anyhow, I may have got "Timmyverse" as the wrong word. What is that deal (which I thought was mentioned on this forum once, but I could be mistaken) where one guy worked out logical consequences for wizard spells and it resulted with fortified cities with teleport portals, etc., etc., It was a world that was effectively populated by optimizers, IIRC.

[Segev]

Anyhow, I may have got "Timmyverse" as the wrong word. What is that deal (which I thought was mentioned on this forum once, but I could be mistaken) where one guy worked out logical consequences for wizard spells and it resulted with fortified cities with teleport portals, etc., etc., It was a world that was effectively populated by optimizers, IIRC.

You probably mean "Tippyverse."

There's a poster on these boards called "Emperor Tippy" who is famous for his highly optimized games and a setting he runs wherein he's taken the consequences of the RAW (particularly regarding spells, magic items, and specifically "spell clocks" and "magical traps") to their logical extrema, leading to mega-cities fed by magically-created food in abundance with well-managed networks of teleportation circles rendering the unsafe zones outside cities needless to ever enter.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Anyhow, I may have got "Timmyverse" as the wrong word. What is that deal (which I thought was mentioned on this forum once, but I could be mistaken) where one guy worked out logical consequences for wizard spells and it resulted with fortified cities with teleport portals, etc., etc., It was a world that was effectively populated by optimizers, IIRC.
That's the Tippyverse, and yes, it's well-known for being a very high-OP world, relative to most campaign worlds.

Note that even when playing the Tippyverse, laughing at drown healing is perfectly acceptable - not all silly RAW is part of the setting.

[Segev]

As for actually getting "in" with this group... try again, I guess. Don't bring up TO stuff, since it makes them uncomfortable. Offering to run a game is probably not a bad idea; DMs are generally hard to find. When you do, though, make sure you have a plan for the game. Even if it's just a module you plan to run. "I'd like to run Kingmaker" would be a fine way to go about it, for example. "I'm accepting any character you can build with the PF SRD. 3.5 mechanics may be accepted by request after I examine them for balance."

Since they're "role play, not roll play" types, emphasize the story aspects of whatever you're going to run.

And the advice of not mentioning fallacies by name is solid; people dismiss that as fallacious in and of itself because it has a name, ironically. A name they've probably never heard, moreover, so it sounds like you're just trying to argue to defend your evil, heathen, munchkin ways (to them).

[John Longarrow]

Anyhow, I may have got "Timmyverse" as the wrong word. What is that deal (which I thought was mentioned on this forum once, but I could be mistaken) where one guy worked out logical consequences for wizard spells and it resulted with fortified cities with teleport portals, etc., etc., It was a world that was effectively populated by optimizers, IIRC.

I think when you posted that we thought you were referencing (unintentionally) the TV show "Fairly Odd Parents" who's protagonist is "Timmy", "an average kid who no one understands".

It is a TV setting that can be just as silly and over powered in its own way as the Tippyverse. It did come across as quite amusing though. May have to refer to Emperor Tippy as "Honorary Emperor Timmy".

[Calthropstu]

I think when you posted that we thought you were referencing (unintentionally) the TV show "Fairly Odd Parents" who's protagonist is "Timmy", "an average kid who no one understands".

It is a TV setting that can be just as silly and over powered in its own way as the Tippyverse. It did come across as quite amusing though. May have to refer to Emperor Tippy as "Honorary Emperor Timmy".

To be fair, timmy is kind of what TO aspires to.

[Segev]

To be fair, timmy is kind of what TO aspires to.

Not really. Give any Theoretical Optimizer around here access to Timmy's fairies, and the fallout would be VERY different.

[Jay R]

I've started attending a local community college and tried to get involved with the table top club there. I started talking about common builds like a mailman, critfishing with kukris, Batman Wizard and even punpun as half joke half coversation. However apparently even mentioning numbers in this club as set off a ton of people. Everyone thinks I'm some terrible person for trying to build a character that works on paper and not just and RP level. I brought up the stormwind fallacy, Meaning that just because I can be good with numbers doesn't inherently make me unfocused or bad at roleplaying. They've essentially ostracized me from club activities and no one will listen to me! I think it's a bit messed up how warped some people's perceptions can be when it comes to this sort of thing. I'd like to play D&D but everytime i try i either make a bad impression or people freak out when I mentioned anything about numbers. I'm not event talking about super optimizied stuff I mentioned punpun as like "I would never play this, but check this out!" My favorite class is the Miniatures Handbook Healer for goodness sake!

Does anyone have any problems like this where you are?

The next time you meet a new gaming group, don't spend a lot of time talking about how to break the game. Talk about the role-playing you enjoy, and the characters you like to play. Better yet, ask them about the role-playing they like to do, and the characters they like to play.

The problem isn't that you know how to use numbers that way. The problem is that that's what you primarily talked about, so that's what they think you primarily care about.

Whatever your intent may have been, what you actually did was come in and talk about how much you knew about breaking the game. OF COURSE nobody wants to play with such a player.

[John Longarrow]

Not really. Give any Theoretical Optimizer around here access to Timmy's fairies, and the fallout would be VERY different.

You think a TO could get Cosmo to grant wishes that are useful? You've seen the show I take it....

[Segev]

You think a TO could get Cosmo to grant wishes that are useful? You've seen the show I take it....

I think a TO could get Wanda to grant wishes that were useful, and could exploit the loopholes in The Rules and in Cosmo's misunderstandings sufficiently to have major net gains (rather than "return to status quo") each time.

It still might make an interesting story. But it would be a different story.

[Reprimand]

The next time you meet a new gaming group, don't spend a lot of time talking about how to break the game. Talk about the role-playing you enjoy, and the characters you like to play. Better yet, ask them about the role-playing they like to do, and the characters they like to play.

The problem isn't that you know how to use numbers that way. The problem is that that's what you primarily talked about, so that's what they think you primarily care about.

Whatever your intent may have been, what you actually did was come in and talk about how much you knew about breaking the game. OF COURSE nobody wants to play with such a player.

Does anyone read more than the first post before they post something? I already stated I brought up about 4-5 examples over the course of 3 months. I am DMing. I have a few people that are in the same situation the leaders of the club just believe the minority of players that complain about my game and about me rather than letting me explain that they made poor choices and that lead to them dying rather than "He's being unfair," or "He's a big bad powergamer DM!" Even my characters tend toward a supporting role like mass buff clerics or healers.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My roomate has asked that I make a suggestion on his behalf.

To summarize; troll them until they're not -quite- to the point of physically attacking you.

I don't think it's a great plan but there it is.

[denthor]

You say you like to play D&D okay will take that as a fact.

Rather than talk about numbers or characters or how you'd like to Homebrew find out what level they are roll up a character and play until you're able to make the character you want in game so they don't freak out.

Please remember some of these Prestige classes are rather rare you have to have ranks in basket weaving and leather making to prequalify.

Then on top of that most DM's will have to have you find somebody who's already mastered the feat to train you.

If you have ever started the character from first level you would know exactly how unbelievably difficult it is to get some of these Prestige classes because most people will not put the ranks in what they need.