Rules You Never Noticed [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

KillingAScarab

2016-12-19, 10:12 AM

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) was amongst my favorite surprises in the comic.

The Soulbow handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275200-The-Handbook-to-Kill-a-Yak-With-MIND-BULLETS!-I-mean-Arrows!-Soulbow-WIP) points out that you can benefit from Lucky on each mind arrow you fire.

Most of the things it took me awhile to find relate to spellcasters.

It only takes a prepared spellcaster 15 minutes to prepare one quarter of the daily allotment of spells. You may leave spell slots open at the start of the day, rather than agonizing over how to best fill them when you don't know what you'll be facing until later.

Clerics and druids count as spontaneous spellcasters when they substitute prepared spells for cure or summon spells. You can apply metamagic feats for a full-round action (an additional full-round for druids).

I only recently learned break enchantment works on petrification, and it would be a better option than stone to flesh in most cases.

You can potentially use prestidigitation to hinder a spellcaster by messing with a spell component pouch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444094-About-cantips-prestidigitations).

flappeercraft

2016-12-19, 10:32 AM

I never noticed up until recently that their is a mob template in DMG2 so all those fights where I put like 30 human warriors were useless to do 30 different attacks and movements each round.

Remuko

2016-12-19, 10:39 AM

So, I was reading over Weapon Finesse the other day, and noticed something.

I've been playing D&D for a number of years now... and literally have never once noticed this. Does anyone else have any rules, obvious or obscure, that they just completely missed for a while?

How many weapon finesse characters really use a shield though? Its clearly a specific rule that only applies to weapons when using weapon finesse not when using them normally.

Segev

2016-12-19, 10:41 AM

How many weapon finesse characters really use a shield though? Its clearly a specific rule that only applies to weapons when using weapon finesse not when using them normally.

What reason, aside from this obscure rule, would a weapon finesse character have for refraining from a shield? Finesse weapons are almost invariably one-handed.

Deadline

2016-12-19, 11:08 AM

What reason, aside from this obscure rule, would a weapon finesse character have for refraining from a shield? Finesse weapons are almost invariably one-handed.

You'd frequently be TWFing with them. Like on a low-strength, high-dex Rogue or the like.

Nettlekid

2016-12-19, 11:14 AM

Something that really surprised me is that Resistance to Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy) applies per round, not per attack. If a Babau with its Resistance to Fire 10 gets hit with all three shots from a Scorching Ray which do ~14 damage each, that Babau ends up taking 32 damage rather than 12 since the resistance is used up by the first shot, and not subtracted from each. I've always played it the other way, where it resists energy damage from each shot. What's all the more confusing is that Resist Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) does apply per attack rather than per round.

John Longarrow

2016-12-19, 11:35 AM

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) was amongst my favorite surprises in the comic.

Which strangeness? Severing a limb with a HAMMER or the SHARK?

Inevitability

2016-12-19, 11:51 AM

It took me years to find out the game actually had rules for falling speed of non-flying creatures: the second DMG lists it as 670 feet in the first round and 1150 thereafter.

Tarvus

2016-12-19, 12:16 PM

Khedrac

2016-12-19, 12:25 PM

KillingAScarab

2016-12-19, 12:33 PM

Which strangeness? Severing a limb with a HAMMER or the SHARK?Definitely the shark, though the hammer was worth a chuckle, too.

Tarvus

2016-12-19, 12:34 PM

Check the actual rulebooks on this. IIRC 'per round' was the 3.0 rule and 'per attack' is the 3.5.

My 3.5 DMG says per round, not just the SRD.

Mato

2016-12-19, 12:50 PM

My 3.5 DMG says per round, not just the SRD.Yeah but if you finish reading the entry instead of skimming it for confirmation it says;

RESISTANCE TO ENERGY
A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type (such as cold, electricity, or fire) each round, but it does not have total immunity. ... For example, a janni has resistance to fire 10. A janni can ignore the first 10 points of fire damage it takes each attack. ...It's bad editing but what to believe?

resistance to energy: A creature with resistance to an energy type ignores a certain amount of damage dealt by that energy type each time it is dealt. For instance, a creature with fire resistance 10 ignores the first 10 points of fire damage dealt by each attack. ...

Resistance to Energy (Ex): A creature with this special quality ignores some damage of the indicated type each time it takes damage of that kind (commonly acid, cold, fire, or electricity). The entry indicates the amount and type of damage ignored. For example, a lillend has resistance to fire 10, so it ignores the first 10 points of fire damage dealt to it anytime it takes fire damage.

A creature that has resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain energy type each time it takes damage of that type. Each resistance is defined by what energy type it resists and how many points of damage are resisted. For instance, if a creature has resistance to fire 10, it can ignore the first 10 points of fire damage it takes from each attack. ...That'd be each time.

ZamielVanWeber

2016-12-19, 01:21 PM

My 3.5 DMG says per round, not just the SRD.

The MM says per attack and that is the definitive source as it is a monster ability. If the players pick it up then it becomes weird.

Zanos

2016-12-19, 01:32 PM

As Mato posted, it was also in the RC, which was published later and should have the final say. Unless you go with the bizarre interpretation that the RC isn't a primary source and doesn't have the authority to change rules.

zergling.exe

2016-12-19, 01:33 PM

The MM says per attack and that is the definitive source as it is a monster ability. If the players pick it up then it becomes weird.

Or as Mato above you pointed out, only one line in the DMG says that it works per round rather than per attack, and even the DMG entry has a line that says it is per attack.

DrMartin

2016-12-19, 01:42 PM

While trying to figure out what an actual full-attack action was a few years back, I noticed you could use two standard actions on two separate turns to complete a full-round action. Gee, wouldn't that have been useful on something like a flurry of blows? That or being compatible with pounce or pounce-like mechanics. Preferably both. But, you know, core monk cannot have ANYTHING going for it. At least they made decisive strike a full-round action.

I very recently noticed that in 3.5 you cannot use the "start/complete full round action" for full attack, charge, run or withdraw - which is what I believe you imply here as well, under "monks get no nice things", since flurry of blows requires a full attack.

I do believe that in 3.0 there was no such distinction, but am in no position to verify that right now.

Pex

2016-12-19, 02:00 PM

Playing a cleric many years ago I wasn't a fan of Greater Magic Weapon spell, even though at the time it was +1 per three levels. I didn't want to spend a 4th level spell slot for a passive ability. I don't mind spending 1st level slots for the buff to hit and damage like Bless and Divine Favor; 4th level was just too high a price for me.

One day while I was reading the PHB at home, I was reading the spell again when I noticed it could affect 50 arrows. Not just one melee weapon, 50 arrows. The party has a ranger. My eyes lit up in realization. Next game session I cast the spell on the ranger's arrows. The effect was immediate and noticeable. The ranger was a good shot already, but OMG was he killing off the bad guys. The ranger player himself was impressed. At the time he hadn't decided what deity his character worshiped, in and out of character. He declared it would be my cleric's deity right then.

Stealth Marmot

2016-12-19, 02:51 PM

Segev

2016-12-19, 02:57 PM

You'd frequently be TWFing with them. Like on a low-strength, high-dex Rogue or the like.Ah, good point.

Something that really surprised me is that Resistance to Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy) applies per round, not per attack. If a Babau with its Resistance to Fire 10 gets hit with all three shots from a Scorching Ray which do ~14 damage each, that Babau ends up taking 32 damage rather than 12 since the resistance is used up by the first shot, and not subtracted from each. I've always played it the other way, where it resists energy damage from each shot. What's all the more confusing is that Resist Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) does apply per attack rather than per round....that is odd.

Yeah but if you finish reading the entry instead of skimming it for confirmation it says;
It's bad editing but what to believe?

That'd be each time.Though this explains it. It does seem to make more sense to just have it resist energy damage from each attack.

Please tell me you didn't stack the ammo bonus with the bow's bonus. Cause you're not supposed to.In 3.0, at least, you explicitly could.

In 3.5, the real advantage to "50 arrows" is that you can hand them to multiple archers, since if it's just one archer, you can get the same mileage out of GMWing his bow.

Manyasone

2016-12-19, 02:57 PM

Please tell me you didn't stack the ammo bonus with the bow's bonus. Cause you're not supposed to.
Methinks he did

Grod_The_Giant

2016-12-19, 03:52 PM

Please tell me you didn't stack the ammo bonus with the bow's bonus. Cause you're not supposed to.
Nah, what you do is load your weapon up with enhancement properties, then cast GMW. Now your +1 Flaming Collision sword is a +5 Flaming Collision sword.

Aegis013

2016-12-19, 05:55 PM

So a DM I play under showed me a rule I'd overlooked, using it for a perfectly valid interpretation, but not the one that I had. Of course, as the DM, the ruling is correct for their game and I'm fine with that, but I'm curious if others have run into this or what they think (I hope it qualifies as an obscure rule).

Rule is regarding the ToB maneuvers Dancing and Raging Mongoose. The rule in question is:
SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm):

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

Does this mean that unless you full attack you are unable to utilize the Dancing or Raging Mongoose maneuvers? Or do the maneuvers qualify as a special reason?

ComaVision

2016-12-19, 06:00 PM

Does this mean that unless you full attack you are unable to utilize the Dancing or Raging Mongoose maneuvers? Or do the maneuvers qualify as a special reason?

Your DM is correct. You can use those maneuvers without a full attack action but you'll be restricted to one attack (standard action) and one extra attack from the boost.

Aegis013

2016-12-19, 06:13 PM

Your DM is correct. You can use those maneuvers without a full attack action but you'll be restricted to one attack (standard action) and one extra attack from the boost.

I was unclear, the DM's ruling was that without a full attack, you can't initiate the maneuvers at all.

Mato

2016-12-19, 11:16 PM

I was unclear, the DM's ruling was that without a full attack, you can't initiate the maneuvers at all.Generally the order of rule application is general, specific, & exception. As a general rule you can attack once but with a specific rule, for example manyshot or scorching ray, you can attack multiple times as a standard action.

Your DM may have ruled that since raging mongoose specifically provides additional TWF-like attacks you should probably be able to make TWF-like attacks in the first place in order to boost them. And that really isn't a bad ruling. But if he told you that you can't use a multi-attack strike then he would more obviously be deviating from the rules.

Pex

2016-12-20, 01:26 AM

Please tell me you didn't stack the ammo bonus with the bow's bonus. Cause you're not supposed to.

Methinks he did

Were you there? No, you were not.

The magic melee weapons the party had were good enough on their own the spell wouldn't have added much. Casting Bless, a 1st level spell, was just as effective if not statistically equal. Magical arrows, on the other hand, were hard to come by, inherently no where near the numbers the ranger would fire his bow. With one spell he was +3 to hit and damage for the entire day, well worth the 4th level slot. Remember, I did say that at the time Greater Magic Weapon was +1 per three levels. Even after the nerf it would still be worth it because you can't get infinite magic arrows. At 8th level when it becomes +2, melee warriors already have at least a +1 weapon, if not +1 plus rider. A 4th level slot for just +1 to hit and damage more is inefficient to me. A 4th level slot for +2 to hit and damage for every arrow of the ranger, worth it. 12th level is a no-brainer for +3/+3 with plenty of 4th level slots to spare. That was the eureka. Not the plus number itself but being able to buff the party's archer so much.

KillianHawkeye

2016-12-20, 02:13 AM

You could have just said it was back in 3.0 when all that stuff still worked like that. Most people here assume 3.5 talk unless otherwise specified. No need to get riled up....

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-20, 02:18 AM

I was unclear, the DM's ruling was that without a full attack, you can't initiate the maneuvers at all.

That reads right to me. There's nothing in the phrasing of the maneuver to make an exception to the standard rule that you can only initiate multiple attacks you're entitled to when you take a full attack action.

Compare them to the wording of the snap kick feat's benefit, where it's made explicitly clear that you can activate the feat whenever you make -any- attack.

Though technically, you could activate the maneuvers at the beginning of your turn and not take the full attack. They'd just be wasted for the encounter.

etrpgb

2016-12-20, 09:28 AM

There is actually a weapon like this:

Greathammer: Damage 1d12, Critical 19–20/×4, (Bludgeoning)

Pretty much the ultimate melee weapon. From Monster Manual IV, p.101

JoshuaZ

2016-12-20, 09:53 AM

There is actually a weapon like this:

Greathammer: Damage 1d12, Critical 19–20/×4, (Bludgeoning)

Pretty much the ultimate melee weapon. From Monster Manual IV, p.101

Well, the fact that it is an exotic weapon is a slight balancing factor. But that's still a very good find. And it gets a +2 bonus on sunder attempts on weapons or shields which is just gravy. Looking at the entry, it doesn't say that it is a two-handed weapon anywhere that I see, does it? That makes it sort of insane. I assume it is meant to be two-handed, and even with that it is very nice.

Jormengand

2016-12-20, 10:36 AM

Looking at the entry, it doesn't say that it is a two-handed weapon anywhere that I see, does it?

It's a 3.0 weapon, isn't it? That would mean that the "Medium" weapon is the medium two-handed version (just like in 3.5, in 3.0 a creature can wield a weapon of its own size in two hands).

EDIT: In fact, either way, in absence of other information, the fact that it's medium means that it's a two-handed weapon for a medium creature.

Segev

2016-12-20, 10:45 AM

That reads right to me. There's nothing in the phrasing of the maneuver to make an exception to the standard rule that you can only initiate multiple attacks you're entitled to when you take a full attack action.

Compare them to the wording of the snap kick feat's benefit, where it's made explicitly clear that you can activate the feat whenever you make -any- attack.

Though technically, you could activate the maneuvers at the beginning of your turn and not take the full attack. They'd just be wasted for the encounter.

The maneuvers have specific activation times, and specific effects when used. If they say "you make an additional attack" when you use the Boost, you make an additional attack when you use it (as a swift action). If they say "you make an attack with each weapon you're wielding, up to a maximum of two," and they take a standard action to activate, then you do precisely that in a standard action.

The exception/specific rule is right there.

Crake

2016-12-20, 10:53 AM

It's a 3.0 weapon, isn't it? That would mean that the "Medium" weapon is the medium two-handed version (just like in 3.5, in 3.0 a creature can wield a weapon of its own size in two hands).

EDIT: In fact, either way, in absence of other information, the fact that it's medium means that it's a two-handed weapon for a medium creature.

This is a 3.5 weapon from a 3.5 book. Take a look again at the equipment section in the players handbook, and you will see even in there it has a "Damage (Small)" and "Damage (Medium)" column, giving you the damage for the weapon for the two most common player sizes. It's not saying that it's a medium sized weapon, but rather saying that the weapon, when sized for a medium creature, deals 1d12 damage.

That said, looking at the weapon in the picture, as well as the statistics for the weapon in the monster's statblock, it is wielding it two handed, and it is getting 1.5x str to damage. Admittedly you can do that for a one handed weapon as well, but i think it's safe to say, with that stat line, two handed seems more reasonable.

Inevitability

2016-12-20, 10:55 AM

It's a 3.0 weapon, isn't it?

MM IV is just 3.5, as far as I know.

daremetoidareyo

2016-12-20, 10:56 AM

Line of effect. Never used this hidden little anti-gem until frequenting the boards here

Segev

2016-12-20, 10:58 AM

Line of effect. Never used this hidden little anti-gem until frequenting the boards here

Would you please elaborate? I'm not sure what you did before you learned of it, and how you've changed play since learning of it.

daremetoidareyo

2016-12-20, 11:04 AM

Would you please elaborate? I'm not sure what you did before you learned of it, and how you've changed play since learning of it.

We used line of sight. Line of effect is a significantly different concept because it makes the ring of x-ray vision or clairvoyance lose tactical potency. But introducing the idea that you can't necessarily target what you see is not very intuitive.

Inevitability

2016-12-20, 11:16 AM

We used line of sight. Line of effect is a significantly different concept because it makes the ring of x-ray vision or clairvoyance lose tactical potency. But introducing the idea that you can't necessarily target what you see is not very intuitive.

*cough*windows*cough*

Fuzzy McCoy

2016-12-20, 11:40 AM

There is actually a weapon like this:

Greathammer: Damage 1d12, Critical 19–20/×4, (Bludgeoning)

Pretty much the ultimate melee weapon. From Monster Manual IV, p.101

I should point out that the statistics in the minotaur's stat block put the hammer at just 20/x4, which makes sense to me, as it puts it in line with the goliath greathammer. Still a good weapon, especially if you have a a way to cast greater mighty wallop.

Zanos

2016-12-20, 11:42 AM

*cough*windows*cough*
I personally do think it's kind of weird that a window is a 100% foolproof defense against almost all spells.
"I cast charm person on him when he comes to the window."
"You can't, there's a window in the way."

Keral

2016-12-20, 11:58 AM

I personally do think it's kind of weird that a window is a 100% foolproof defense against almost all spells.
"I cast charm person on him when he comes to the window."
"You can't, there's a window in the way."

Also, if one were to apply line of effect, would that mean that a total body suit blocks spells?

It probably wouldn't hinder damaging spells much, but it would be way cheaper than, say, a ring of mind blank.

Add in blindsight and you'd be set.

Except that I just noticed, by reading blindsight, that you need line of effect from you to the creature. So to block blindsight you just need to throw a blanket on them? :|

Inevitability

2016-12-20, 12:17 PM

Also, if one were to apply line of effect, would that mean that a total body suit blocks spells?

It probably wouldn't hinder damaging spells much, but it would be way cheaper than, say, a ring of mind blank.

Add in blindsight and you'd be set.

Except that I just noticed, by reading blindsight, that you need line of effect from you to the creature. So to block blindsight you just need to throw a blanket on them? :|

Mindsight still works, as does seeing through someone else's eyes in one of the various ways.

daremetoidareyo

2016-12-20, 12:42 PM

Mindsight still works, as does seeing through someone else's eyes in one of the various ways.

Yeah, but who knew that a tower shield made of glass is more effective at getting close to a mage than an actual magic tower shield. (look at nephelium from the sunless citadel page 32) to exploit this.

Remuko

2016-12-20, 01:00 PM

I got one I just found in another thread on here about something unrelated to this thread.

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm)

John Longarrow

2016-12-20, 01:03 PM

If you just noticed that I'm guessing you don't play a lot of multi-class characters.

GilesTheCleric

2016-12-20, 01:11 PM

If you just noticed that I'm guessing you don't play a lot of multi-class characters.

To be fair, I play lots of multiclass characters, and never knew that there was a general rule for cleric+paladin turn stacking, simply because I haven't read the multiclassing section in the PHB for at least 8+ years.

Inevitability

2016-12-20, 01:25 PM

To be fair, I play lots of multiclass characters, and never knew that there was a general rule for cleric+paladin turn stacking, simply because I haven't read the multiclassing section in the PHB for at least 8+ years.

To be fair, paladin 4/cleric X isn't the most common of multiclasses either.

Flickerdart

2016-12-20, 01:37 PM

It took me years to find out the game actually had rules for falling speed of non-flying creatures: the second DMG lists it as 670 feet in the first round and 1150 thereafter.
Unless you jump, then it's limited by your movement speed!

Remuko

2016-12-20, 01:39 PM

If you just noticed that I'm guessing you don't play a lot of multi-class characters.

I do but thought I was house-ruling it because almost every site I see (and dnd games i recall playing) all say that your max ranks for a class skill is only relevant if its a skill that's a class skill for the class you're leveling up in that level.

zergling.exe

2016-12-20, 01:44 PM

I do but thought I was house-ruling it because almost every site I see (and dnd games i recall playing) all say that your max ranks for a class skill is only relevant if its a skill that's a class skill for the class you're leveling up in that level.

The true for how many skill points you have to invest for one rank, but not for skill caps. Why would people spread misinformation as fact? :smallsigh:

Mato

2016-12-20, 03:40 PM

Greathammer: Damage 1d12, Critical 19–20/×4, (Bludgeoning)
Pretty much the ultimate melee weapon. From Monster Manual IV, p.101Just because the rules don't say it's one/two handed doesn't mean it's one handed through.

Also 1d12's average is 6.5 but 2d6 is 7 so a mercurial greatsword has better stats than it and a kaorti jovar surpasses both of them with 2d6//18/x4 which I still think deals less damage than what you can do with Sword & Fist's fullblades but I'd have to look. Plus you haven't even considered templates, materials, and enchantments yet. And some people like utility like a harpoon's control and damage, or a sharktooth's grapple, or the AoOs of a barbed chain, or the iaijutsu prowess of a quickrazor, or a warforged monk's interest in a 16d8 battle fist.

Point is, no it's not really. Like a morphing manyfanged dagger in the shape of a crescent knife doubles the number of attacks you have and each successful hit deals quadruple damage.

ZamielVanWeber

2016-12-20, 03:41 PM

The true for how many skill points you have to invest for one rank, but not for skill caps. Why would people spread misinformation as fact? :smallsigh:

Because in 3.0 that was not the case and they may have gotten confused/been really old threads. (That rule was insanely obnoxious in 3.0 by the way).

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-20, 04:54 PM

The maneuvers have specific activation times, and specific effects when used. If they say "you make an additional attack" when you use the Boost, you make an additional attack when you use it (as a swift action). If they say "you make an attack with each weapon you're wielding, up to a maximum of two," and they take a standard action to activate, then you do precisely that in a standard action.

The exception/specific rule is right there.

It doesn't say you make additional attacks, it says you -can- make additional attacks. It's granting a temporary ability not making additional attacks in and of itself.

Segev

2016-12-20, 05:33 PM

It doesn't say you make additional attacks, it says you -can- make additional attacks. It's granting a temporary ability not making additional attacks in and of itself.

I'll have to read the rules, then, later this evening if I remember. I'm AFB at the moment.

Mato

2016-12-20, 05:55 PM

I'll have to read the rules, then, later this evening if I remember. I'm AFB at the moment.He's right it says can.

Remember, the maneuver it's self is not an instantaneous effect that gives you two attacks (see duration "end of turn") but the boost is a buff-styled effect that allows you, on your choice, to make extra attacks in conjunction with the ones you're allowed. What's being debated is what you'd normally be allowed which is '1' or 'all', and your rebuttal that the maneuver grants X is wrong and inapplicable to the situation.

neriractor

2016-12-20, 08:50 PM

You could have just said it was back in 3.0 when all that stuff still worked like that. Most people here assume 3.5 talk unless otherwise specified. No need to get riled up....

he did kind of imply it:

Playing a cleric many years ago I wasn't a fan of Greater Magic Weapon spell, even though at the time it was +1 per three levels... snip

Pex

2016-12-20, 09:41 PM

You could have just said it was back in 3.0 when all that stuff still worked like that. Most people here assume 3.5 talk unless otherwise specified. No need to get riled up....

It was actually a Strawman Fallacy. All I said was I took notice that Greater Magic Weapon affected 50 arrows allowing me to buff the ranger with an efficient use of a 4th level spell. It was other people who said the ranger stacked the bow's magic with the enhanced arrows' magic then got on my case on the matter. I never said anything about the bow being magical. I was happy enough I was able to provide "infinite" magic arrows for the party's ranger. How am I the bad guy here?

John Longarrow

2016-12-20, 09:49 PM

Your not the bad guy. Too many people on here like reading things in that posters don't post.

ZamielVanWeber

2016-12-20, 09:51 PM

I was curious as to why he enchanted the ammo and not the bow but was not too worried about it.

Things I never noticed: Conjure Ice Beast is not wizard/sorcerer. I owe a party a TPK back.

Flickerdart

2016-12-21, 11:42 AM

Things I never noticed: Conjure Ice Beast is not wizard/sorcerer. I owe a party a TPK back.

There's always exotic schools of learning that the NPC spellcaster just happened to study.

RedMage125

2016-12-21, 01:45 PM

How many weapon finesse characters really use a shield though? Its clearly a specific rule that only applies to weapons when using weapon finesse not when using them normally.

Mithril buckler in off-hand means no ACP.

Particle_Man

2016-12-21, 02:05 PM

Mithril buckler in off-hand means no ACP.

Or for the less expensive option, a Masterwork buckler in the off-hand also means no ACP. ;)

RedMage125

2016-12-21, 02:47 PM

One thing I never noticed was that making armor out of mithril does not ACTUALLY make it one category lighter.

I used to allow Barbarians to wear mithril full-plate.

Mithril makes it counted as one category lighter "for purposes of movement and other limitations". So mithril medium armor does not impose speed penalties. BUT...it is STILL Medium armor for purposes of proficiency.

Since classes that can cast arcane spells with no failure in light armor are not specifically mentioned, I made my ruling that it counted as one category lighter for purposes of casting as well. This because ASF is explicitly caused by movement restriction.

But they'd still have the non-proficiency penalty if they are not PROFICIENT in the armor (which is taking the Armor Check penalty to attack rolls). Of course, this is easily solved by reducing the ACP to 0.

Ruslan

2016-12-21, 02:49 PM

I've seen a lot of people trying to use Iron Heart Surge to end a paralysis effect (such as Hold Person), but they forget about the rule that

To initiate a maneuver, you must be able to move

Particle_Man

2016-12-21, 03:20 PM

Speaking of Tome of Battle, if you are not one of the manifester classes, you can't just take Martial Study at 1st level, as non-manifester levels are treated as 1/2 your level rounded down. At best you could take Martial Study at 3rd level.

ZamielVanWeber

2016-12-21, 03:38 PM

Small nitpick: initiator, not manifester. Martial Adept initiate, psionic manifest.

Telok

2016-12-21, 03:38 PM

Particle_Man

2016-12-21, 03:54 PM

Here is a weird one. Dwarves in 3.5 can tumble in full plate! Not well, but still!

Also, IIRC ranks in tumble don't seem to be related to ability to actually tumble in the martial stance from ToB that gives you resistance (and then immunity) to fire. So would a non-dwarf in heavy armour with ranks in tumble and the appropriate martial stance (flame's blessing, was it?) would still get the benefits of that stance. I could be wrong on that one, though.

Vaern

2016-12-21, 04:03 PM

I don't know if it's actually written anywhere in the books, but I remember seeing this somewhere... One of my friends may have directly sent the question to Wizards, or I may have seen this on a forum post at some point, but I have heard that multiple instances of the same elemental enchantment overlap each other in an odd way.

Suppose you somehow end up with Flaming applied to a weapon twice. For example, using a +1 flaming bow with a +1 flaming arrow. Most people would probably say, "They have the same effect, so I just roll an extra 1d6 fire damage." But that may not be quite right. Doubling the flaming effect might enhance it in a weird way.

Minding, of course, that I don't remember whether this was from an official source or a just a player's suggestion: You have the same bonus (+1d6 fire damage) coming from two sources. As with any other type of bonus, the higher of the two overrides the lower bonus. What you would end up doing is rolling 2d6, and then adding the higher of the two results to the final damage of your attack.

Hurnn

2016-12-21, 05:36 PM

Vaern

2016-12-21, 08:29 PM

alignment sub-type [Evil] or any other makes you count as that alignment regardless of your actual alignment for spells and abilities. "Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is." from the srd.
And likewise, it is possible, though rare, for an outsider with an alignment subtype to have an alignment that does not match the subtype - else that rule would be unnecessary to specify. So yes, somewhere in the infinite, uncountable hordes of demons, you might be able to find a lawful good one.

Venger

2016-12-21, 09:05 PM

Draconium

2016-12-21, 09:14 PM

And likewise, it is possible, though rare, for an outsider with an alignment subtype to have an alignment that does not match the subtype - else that rule would be unnecessary to specify. So yes, somewhere in the infinite, uncountable hordes of demons, you might be able to find a lawful good one.

Found her. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) :smalltongue:

zergling.exe

2016-12-21, 11:41 PM

You can't apply the same weapon property to the same weapon more than once.

If you notice they were using a bow to apply it twice. That's about the only time it would even be relevant.

Lyndworm

2016-12-22, 12:59 AM

You can't apply the same weapon property to the same weapon more than once.
Not typically, but there are spells and class abilities that add elemental damage (sometimes expressed in dice, or even explicitly called out as acting like one of the weapon enhancements). There's also the weapon and ammunition possibility that Zergling.exe pointed out. In any of these cases, both numbers apply (and should be rolled for, if necessary) but overlap as described.

Crake

2016-12-22, 01:02 AM

If you notice they were using a bow to apply it twice. That's about the only time it would even be relevant.

Except a bow applies it's abilities to it's ammunition. If the ammunition also has the flaming ability, the bow is going to try and apply the same ability on it, thus trying to apply the same ability twice.

Particle_Man

2016-12-22, 01:04 AM

From an older edition (1st in fact) but I just *today* realized, after decades of owning the books, that bards gain all the non-spell powers of druids, not just some druid spells.

Mind. Blown.

Vaern

2016-12-22, 01:29 AM

There's an interesting way to read into the spellcasting section of the Sublime Chord class description. They gain bard and sorc/wiz spells from 4th level to 9th level.
This grants them access to a non-existent range of 7th, 8th, and 9th level bard spells.

By standard game rules, there are no bard spell options available in this range. The levels may become available to an epic-level bard, though at that point they generally serve no purpose other than allowing the use of metamagic feats on lower spell levels.

However, as spell slots of this class and level range are unexplored territory and technically not epic-level, they grant a unique window of opportunity for creative players to work with their DM to gain access to things like higher level cure spells and/or Heal, as well as more powerful custom spell effects that fit the theme of the bard's base spell list.

John Longarrow

2016-12-23, 02:38 PM

zergling.exe

2016-12-23, 02:54 PM

Superior Unarmed Strike can be made WORSE on a high level character if said character takes a one or two level dip into MONK. Course this also goes with the FEAT Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike) granting itself to Monks from the text of the feat INSTEAD of the class specifying it has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat!

Actually:
Unarmed Strike:Monks are highly trained in fighting unarmed, giving them considerable advantages when doing so. At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

So Monks do get the feat at first level in their description...

Mato

2016-12-23, 04:27 PM

There's an interesting way to read into the spellcasting section of the Sublime Chord class description.You mean read it like normal?

This grants them access to a non-existent range of 7th, 8th, and 9th level bard spells.Actually it allows them to choose spells of the bard's list. The key difference here is the rules are not saying you get 7th level bard spells but you can choose spells off another list. What your arguing is a lot like taking your first level in sorcerer and saying that because you can choose your spells you choose 'nothing', except you have to learn a spell and 'nothing' isn't a valid choice.

By standard game rules, there are no bard spell options available in this range. The levels may become available to an epic-level bard,Epic bard does not advance or grant any spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicBard).

Vaern

2016-12-23, 04:50 PM

Actually it allows them to choose spells of the bard's list. The key difference here is the rules are not saying you get 7th level bard spells but you can choose spells off another list. What your arguing is a lot like taking your first level in sorcerer and saying that because you can choose your spells you choose 'nothing', except you have to learn a spell and 'nothing' isn't a valid choice.
Except you're not forced to choose "nothing" just because there's nothing available. You begin spell creation research as per the rules and mechanics outlined for making custom spells in the DMG, you finish creating your new "Bard 7"-equivalent spell, and then you level up and add the spell, which now exists, to your spell list.

Epic bard does not advance or grant any spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicBard).
Except that they do. Not by class progression on its own, of course. No class gains spellcasting progression past level 20 if you only look at the class features and don't pay attention to anything else.
What you're failing to see is that being an epic level bard, like any other spellcaster, grants access to the Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) feat, which grants spell slots up to one level higher than the maximum level spell you are able to cast. It also grants access to the Spell Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellKnowledge), which allows you to learn new spells of up to the maximum level that you're able to cast. This grants an epic-level bard access to 7th, 8th, and 9th spell slots and access to the "spells known" to learn spells to use in them. As these aren't 10th level or higher, they don't count as "epic spell" slots, and therefore, as I said before, they are only useful for two things: Creating custom non-epic-tier spells that fit the bard's spellcasting theme, or using metamagic with lower-level spells.

Mato

2016-12-23, 05:46 PM

Except you're not forced to choose "nothing" just because there's nothing available. You begin spell creation research as per the rules and mechanics outlined for making custom spells in the DMG, you finish creating your new "Bard 7"-equivalent spell, and then you level up and add the spell, which now exists, to your spell list.:smallsigh:

Yes, the DM could invent 7th level bard spells for you, he can also invent a modified spellcasting that a bard gains 8th level spells at level one. If you're entire follow up was the DM can invent things with you then you should try aiming a little higher. It's a good bargaining technique because it makes them more open to the smaller thing that you really want.

Also I see your change there. You stopped talking about the epic bard to claim you were talking about epic feats. It'd be nice cover except improved spell capacity says you gain a new slot instead of saying that you learn a new Xth level spell that doesn't exist.

Mr Adventurer

2016-12-23, 06:17 PM

Vaern: I'm with you on this. No idea what Mato's problem is.

Jormengand

2016-12-23, 06:20 PM

Vaern: I'm with you on this. No idea what Mato's problem is.

I'm going to guess his problem is that Vaern is making crap up on the spot and then saying it as though it were fact, but that's just a wild stab in the dark.

Vaern

2016-12-23, 07:10 PM

Also I see your change there. You stopped talking about the epic bard to claim you were talking about epic feats. It'd be nice cover except improved spell capacity says you gain a new slot instead of saying that you learn a new Xth level spell that doesn't exist.

There is no change. My argument was never about epic bards. I never said the class gives you higher spell slots; I merely commented that they normally aren't available until epic level. And yes, by taking feats to advance spellcasting, that level of spell power becomes available to an epic-level bard.

And if you read that full post instead of stopping at Improved Spell Capacity, you might have noticed the second feat, which does let you learn new spells of up to Xth level.

But like I said, my argument was never about epic levels. I only suggested that the Sublime Chord's spell selection grants access to a gray area in the rules, which may also eventually be reached by an epic level bard, which offers a window of creativity if someone was inclined to look for it.
But perhaps the concepts of "gray areas" and "creativity" are beyond your comprehension.

Eladrinblade

2016-12-23, 10:06 PM

You know how a wizard gets two more spells added to their spellbook every time they level up? If you're a specialist wizard, one of those spells must be from your specialty school.

With reach weapons, with regards to cover or concealment, you are treated as wielding a ranged weapon, which means you can gain the benefits of Improved Precise Shot with a spiked chain or glaive or whatever. It also means a rogue using a spiked chain (or any actual ranged weapon, for that matter) can sneak attack enemies with concealment (they still need to be able to see clearly).

Armor spikes let you deal their damage on top of your unarmed damage when you grapple somebody.

It's not a "rule", but a bard with 18 Int can have max ranks in every knowledge skill.

One of the options for weapon focus/specialization is "grapple"

Craft Magic Arms & Armor/Wondrous Item let you fix broken items at 1/2 their normal creation costs (1/4 their market costs); sunder ain't so bad after all

Improved Turning doesn't just add +1 to your turning damage, it also adds to your level as per table 8-9

Spirited charge triples your damage with a lance; this means any flat bonus as well, naturally, so power attack and even smite evil for some truly prodigious damage

A halfling under the reduce person spell is tiny and can therefor ride an eagle (such as a druid's animal companion, or a 1st level summon natures ally); giving a party some access to flight as early as 1st level

The snare spell requires a search check to notice it (not a spot check), with a DC high enough to require trap finding, and allows no save and no SR. Breaking free requires a full-round action, meaning this spell is a guaranteed way to inhibit even the most powerful enemies, for at least a round (unless they can teleport).

Tripping a flying creatures causes it to stall.

Most flying creatures have a minimum forward speed; a net slows your speed to half, therefor using a net on a flying creature may take away it's ability to fly at all, or maybe just force it to fly in a straight line until landing.

Protection from X spells prevent summoned creatures from touching you, meaning many can't attack you at all, this includes summon natures ally.

Due to uncanny dodge, rogues and barbarians retain their dex bonus to AC against surprise attacks. This means they retain any dodge bonuses, such as from trap sense, total defense, or combat expertise. So, a rogue or barbarian, with a shield, taking a total defense action, can walk down a trapped hallway without worrying about trap attacks (pits and magic ones are still deadly, of course).

A monk retains their unarmed damage while using a gauntlet, though they can't flurry with it.

Improved cover grants a +10 bonus to hide checks, so peeking around a corner is actually a thing in the rules.

Deafened enemies suffer a -4 penalty to intiative, giving thunderstones a decent surprise round use in parties containing rogues.

Feinting bypasses dodge bonuses, so if you can't hit that damn swashbuckler, try feinting.

You can dismount a mounted character with a trip check (though they can use their ride check to oppose). Still trying to figure out how this ties into jousting...

Wanna take out a big monster with the swallow whole ability? Use resist energy (acid), stoneskin, and maybe shield other, get swallowed, and start attacking at max capacity, but don't actually make a hole to escape with. (technically not a "rule" either)

Implosion is not a death spell, so it bypasses death ward.

Restoration heals fatigue, allowing one to continue sprinting or traveling long distance (good for mounts).

I'll stop there. I'm always finding new things in core 3.5.

Mato

2016-12-24, 05:15 PM

I'm going to guess his problem is that Vaern is making crap up on the spot and then saying it as though it were fact, but that's just a wild stab in the dark.Well, if I ever creatively posted a sorcerer / silver pyromancer then claimed the extra slot feat lets me learn the 9th level paladin spell mass heal because the DM can rule 0 it for me in a thread discussing rules people haven't read I'd hope you realized I wasn't being serious just based off the irony of the topic.

Vaern's entire point, without the needless convolution and desperation to find something supportive, is more of a question of if a 9th level druid takes extra spell and chooses a 6th level ranger spell then what happens? And he provides the answer of homebrew to fill in the "gray areas" but if you disagree with that then he insults you for not having enough vision and I'm supposed to be the one with a problem? :smallsigh:

I suppose Christmas can be very stressful to some people.

It's not a "rule", but a bard with 18 Int can have max ranks in every knowledge skill.But what about knowledge[psionics]? OA also added a few, S&F has Knowledge[code of martial honor] and ToB also added one. That one site I can't link has a couple uncited ones I didn't cover too so a couple more Int points are needed, you're probably better off using the Factotum for the synergy.

Does anyone have a complete list of all the possible knowledge skills?

A halfling under the reduce person spell is tiny and can therefor ride an eagle (such as a druid's animal companion, or a 1st level summon natures ally); giving a party some access to flight as early as 1st levelDire bats are medium creatures and have a small price tag so you don't need reduce person.

Vaern

2016-12-25, 02:16 AM

Vaern's entire point, without the needless convolution and desperation to find something supportive, is more of a question of if a 9th level druid takes extra spell and chooses a 6th level ranger spell then what happens?
But that's not the same thing. It may be an accurate comparison if those classed were reversed, though: If ranger the ranger gains access to 6th level spells, though his spell list normally only goes up to 4th level, could he use the slots to learn certain druid spells? The druid's spell list has a full 9-spell-level progression, and then proceeds to epic spellcasting; the ranger, on the other hand, only gains up to 4th level spells, leaving a large gap between standard spell progression and epic spellcasting. Just like the bard, these spell levels are a gray area which the rules don't accommodate for, and thus the druid's spell list - being nature-themed like the ranger's - would be a likely place to look for substitute spells to fill the empty space, just as I'm suggesting that higher level healing spells might be an acceptable possibility to fill the bard's otherwise empty 7th- through 9th-level spell levels.

stanprollyright

2016-12-25, 02:18 AM

Yeah but Sublime Chord already draws from the wizard list

Vaern

2016-12-25, 02:37 AM

Yeah but Sublime Chord already draws from the wizard list

Yeah, but not exclusively. Access to wizard spells means they don't have the lack of options that a straight bard may encounter upon reaching those spell levels, though the option of touching that unexplored territory is still there.

KillianHawkeye

2016-12-25, 07:38 AM

One that I didn't learn about until a couple months ago is that you can't take an Attack of Opportunity against an enemy who has cover, so doing something like fighting from around a corner or through a doorway is pretty safe for taking certain actions in melee range.

JoshuaZ

2016-12-25, 07:47 AM

You know how a wizard gets two more spells added to their spellbook every time they level up? If you're a specialist wizard, one of those spells must be from your specialty school.

Where is this? I can't find it at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard

Allanimal

2016-12-25, 10:08 AM

Where is this? I can't find it at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard

It is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook

Spells Gained at a New Level
Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

Venger

2016-12-25, 10:17 AM

JoshuaZ

2016-12-25, 10:18 AM

It is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook

Huh. That's very interesting. That seems like an important rule I've never noticed before.

Allanimal

2016-12-25, 10:29 AM

Huh. That's very interesting. That seems like an important rule I've never noticed before.

Indeed. They really should have put it in with the Wizard class description, imho, instead of buried in the part about adding spells to the spell book.

KillianHawkeye

2016-12-25, 10:38 AM

That's interesting. Where is this rule? Is it under aoos or cover.

Cover. :smallsmile:

Venger

2016-12-25, 11:53 AM

Cover. :smallsmile:

Huh. How about that? Good spot.

One of my favorites is this gem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm)

Active abjuration spells within 10 feet of each other for 24 hours or more create barely visible energy fluctuations. These fluctuations give you a +4 bonus on Search checks to locate such abjuration spells.

How often did they think this was going to come up that they made this rule for it?

Flickerdart

2016-12-25, 11:58 AM

How often did they think this was going to come up that they made this rule for it?

Reasonably often, in the case of BBEGs that trick out their base in all kinds of protective spells. Rogues need every bit of help they can get to spot 'em!

Keral

2016-12-25, 12:10 PM

Active abjuration spells within 10 feet of each other for 24 hours or more create barely visible energy fluctuations. These fluctuations give you a +4 bonus on Search checks to locate such abjuration spells.

Uh, does an item providing a permanent spell effect count as an active spell?

Also, looking at that section, I just noticed:

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

How can this really work? I mean, summon monster says:

except that you can summon one creature from the 3rd-level list, 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 2nd-level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from the 1st-level list.

When you can summon multiple copies of a creature can you really reasonably enforce that if one's killed you can't summon it again before the reforming time passes?

Zombimode

2016-12-25, 12:32 PM

When you can summon multiple copies of a creature can you really reasonably enforce that if one's killed you can't summon it again before the reforming time passes?

You simply summon other creatures of the same kind.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-12-25, 12:32 PM

I just noticed that call weaponry has no provision for losing the weapon at the end of the power's duration; it only goes away if you let go of it for too long. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/callWeaponry.htm

So you use the power, and you get a permaweapon, though you can re-call it later to upgrade it or change its ability options (via soulbound weapon).

Troacctid

2016-12-25, 01:01 PM

One that I overlooked at first that I'm betting other people did the same is that the scout's uncanny dodge ability is different from most other versions of the ability. It doesn't just prevent you from being denied your Dex to AC when you're flat-footed. It prevents you from being caught flat-footed...period. Foresight, eat your heart out.

Another one is that soulmelds are subject to spell resistance when they target another creature. Or at least they're supposed to be—none of them have a target line, so the rule is highly dysfunctional. Still, it exists, and it's easy to miss.

I just noticed that call weaponry has no provision for losing the weapon at the end of the power's duration; it only goes away if you let go of it for too long. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/callWeaponry.htm

So you use the power, and you get a permaweapon, though you can re-call it later to upgrade it or change its ability options (via soulbound weapon).
I didn't notice that either, but it looks like you're right.

A power of the teleportation subdiscipline transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most potent of these powers can cross planar boundaries. Usually the transportation is one-way (unless otherwise noted) and not dispellable. Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
But that can't be the intent, right?

Manyasone

2016-12-25, 01:18 PM

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-12-25, 01:24 PM

Hmmm, the power has a duration of 1min/lvl...pretty clear in my opinionAnd yet it's a teleportation power, which explicitly does not return the affected subject at the end of the power, since it's not stated to do so. The only thing that actually happens, RAW, is the weapon no longer returns from whence it came if you drop it at the end of the power's duration, I think, because the power is no longer affecting the weapon.

Doctor Despair

2016-12-25, 01:38 PM

And yet it's a teleportation power, which explicitly does not return the affected subject at the end of the power, since it's not stated to do so. The only thing that actually happens, RAW, is the weapon no longer returns from whence it came if you drop it at the end of the power's duration, I think, because the power is no longer affecting the weapon.

I suppose that depends on if the returning is a quality of the weapons or a function of the power. With that reading, a Psychic Warrior could expend all their power points on any given day to make as strong a weapon as they can, hold it for X minutes, and then be set to adventure the next day with a marked power increase. Sounds like a fun trick to buff a non-full-casting class (although I'm not super familiar with psionics, I assume a psychic warrior isn't the equivalent of a psion).

SirNibbles

2016-12-25, 01:46 PM

Nah, what you do is load your weapon up with enhancement properties, then cast GMW. Now your +1 Flaming Collision sword is a +5 Flaming Collision sword.

I would highly advise looking at the Brambles spell (Complete Divine pg 156). It gives up to a +10 enhancement bonus for wooden weapons (at caster level 10) with a second level spell slot, though you need a bit of work to Persist it. Thankfully, you can pass the weapon to someone after you buff it. You can also use it on a Treant's natural weapons.

Crake

2016-12-25, 03:37 PM

When you can summon multiple copies of a creature can you really reasonably enforce that if one's killed you can't summon it again before the reforming time passes?

This rule was for summoning specific creatures. For example, if you summoned an earth elemental to go scout a cave, and it died in the cave, you couldn't summon the same elemental again to learn what it saw for 24 hours. There is also an optional rule in the DMG about having set summons, where instead of summoning random creatures, it's the same ones every time, and you can even deck them out with gear by plane shifting it to them, but as you guessed, if they die, you lose access to them for 24 hours.

Inevitability

2016-12-25, 04:03 PM

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-12-25, 04:09 PM

It'd probably also remove the 'distinctive astral glimmer' so they no longer overcome DR/magic, making the created weapons far less interesting to use.It would still be a +X weapon at higher augmentations, though, which would remove that issue completely.

Zanos

2016-12-25, 04:50 PM

I would highly advise looking at the Brambles spell (Complete Divine pg 156). It gives up to a +10 enhancement bonus for wooden weapons (at caster level 10) with a second level spell slot, though you need a bit of work to Persist it. Thankfully, you can pass the weapon to someone after you buff it. You can also use it on a Treant's natural weapons.

It got nerfed in spell compendium. +1 to hit flat, and +cl to damage.

Yahzi

2016-12-25, 07:02 PM

So, I was reading over Weapon Finesse the other day, and noticed something.
Not only have I never noticed that, I'm going to go back to never noticing it.
Ugh. What an annoying way to cripple an already crippled feat.

Eladrinblade

2016-12-25, 07:45 PM

Not only have I never noticed that, I'm going to go back to never noticing it.
Ugh. What an annoying way to cripple an already crippled feat.

Unless you wanted to use a tower shield, what difference does it make?

daremetoidareyo

2016-12-25, 07:49 PM

Not only have I never noticed that, I'm going to go back to never noticing it.
Ugh. What an annoying way to cripple an already crippled feat.

Thou art guilty of houserule! Guards, fling this...miscreant into the sea of text!

Zanos

2016-12-25, 08:59 PM

Unless you wanted to use a tower shield, what difference does it make?
Are you kidding? The towershield rogue is a fantasy staple! He can hide with the total cover.

Telok

2016-12-25, 09:43 PM

Unless you wanted to use a tower shield, what difference does it make?

Short sword and heavy shield finesse warblade.

SirNibbles

2016-12-25, 10:10 PM

It got nerfed in spell compendium. +1 to hit flat, and +cl to damage.

Thanks for pointing that out- I hadn't checked to see if it'd been changed. I suppose +10 to hit and damage may have been a bit overpowered, even for a spell that is 1 round/level.

Oh well. It still looks like a good spell, as does Spikes.

Zanos

2016-12-25, 10:12 PM

Thanks for pointing that out- I hadn't checked to see if it'd been changed. I suppose +10 to hit and damage may have been a bit overpowered, even for a spell that is 1 round/level.

Oh well. It still looks like a good spell, as does Spikes.
Well, +10 flat to damage is similar to 3d6 average wise, but is also multiplied on crits. So for a 2nd level spell, that's a pretty solid buff for anyone who's throwing out a lot of attacks. If you can convince them to use a wooden weapon.

Mato

2016-12-25, 10:51 PM

If you can convince them to use a bronzewood weapon.fify. :smallsmile:

Eladrinblade

2016-12-25, 11:33 PM

Short sword and heavy shield finesse warblade.

Heavy darkwood or mithril are both cheap.

Mr Adventurer

2016-12-26, 09:43 AM

Well, +10 flat to damage is similar to 3d6 average wise, but is also multiplied on crits. So for a 2nd level spell, that's a pretty solid buff for anyone who's throwing out a lot of attacks. If you can convince them to use a wooden weapon.

My druid uses it, alongside Shillelagh and a loaned Greater Mighty Wallop, on a club. He does OK.

Telok

2016-12-26, 12:07 PM

Heavy darkwood or mithril are both cheap.

Which is great if you have your own enchanter or a magic mart and never encounter any shields with unique enhancements.

Mato

2016-12-26, 12:50 PM

Magic mart exists according to the rules and have you ever played Eberron before?

Fantasy doesn't automatically equal LotR.

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-26, 03:45 PM

Which is great if you have your own enchanter or a magic mart and never encounter any shields with unique enhancements.

Magic mart exists according to the rules and have you ever played Eberron before?

Fantasy doesn't automatically equal LotR.

Well, not so much magic marttm per se as an open economic market trading in magic items but, yeah, being able to trade junk loot for half its value in stuff you actually want is the default assumption of the game. DM's are, of course, free to mess with that assumption but you can't blame the system for the changes to the rules made by individual DM's.

Troacctid

2016-12-26, 03:53 PM

I'm quite sure the rules do offer variants where magic items are more difficult to buy and sell, which makes it no more of a houserule than, say, buying off LA.

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-26, 04:00 PM

I'm quite sure the rules do offer variants where magic items are more difficult to buy and sell, which makes it no more of a houserule than, say, buying off LA.

Gonna have to demand a citation for that one.

Mato

2016-12-26, 04:52 PM

I figured I'd reiterate this over here, seems appropriate.

Arcane spellcasters, also known as arcanists, prepare spells in a particular way, following specific rules. (like "A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time" ~PHB56) A character’s level in an arcane spellcasting class limits the number of spells that character can prepare and cast.

SPELL SLOTS
A class table shows how many spells of each level a spellcaster of that class can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.

SPELL PREPARATION PROCESS
Until arcane spellcasters prepare spells, the only spells they have available to cast are the ones already prepared and not yet used from the previous day.Prepared spellcasters uses prepared spells to cast spells.

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots.

SPELL SLOTS
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spontaneous spellcaster always has the option to use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell.

REST AND READYING
Without such a period of rest and concentration, a spontaneous spellcaster doesn’t regain the spell slots used up the day before.Spontaneous spellcasters uses spell slots to cast spells.
It's a small difference, but as most forum arguments show. It's one you won't normally notice.

Edit - Another good example.

This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast.Prepared spellcasters recover prepared spells to cast more spells.

A memento magica is a great aid to spontaneous spellcasters such as sorcerers, bards, and favored souls (see Complete Divine page 6), much as a pearl of power is to casters who prepare spells. Once per day on command, a memento magica enables its possessor to regain any one spell slot that she had previously used that day.Spontaneous spellcasters recover spell slots to cast more spells.

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-26, 06:40 PM

I figured I'd reiterate this over here, seems appropriate.
Prepared spellcasters uses prepared spells to cast spells.
Spontaneous spellcasters uses spell slots to cast spells.
It's a small difference, but as most forum arguments show. It's one you won't normally notice.

The implication here is not what you seem to think it is. A spell slot doesn't stop being a spell slot just because you prepare a spell in it. It simply becomes a filled spell slot.

Mato

2016-12-26, 07:41 PM

The implication here is not what you seem to think it is. A spell slot doesn't stop being a spell slot just because you prepare a spell in it. It simply becomes a filled spell slot.I didn't say, intend, or after rereading even seem to imply, it stops being a spell slot.

There is a poorly defined limit of how much I can quote but to reempathize.

When preparing spells for the day, arcane spellcasters can leave some spell slots open. Later during that day, they can repeat the preparation process as often as they like, time and circumstances permitting, to fill those open slots. They can’t, however, fill any slot that contained a prepared spell after the initial preparation process of the day. This means an arcanist can’t abandon a recently prepared spell to prepare another, nor can that spellcaster refill spell slots of spells that have been cast since the initial preparation process of the day.A wizard doesn't exactly have a daily limitation of spells. The first sentence of the prepared spell slot entry implies so but the rest of the rules are actually aimed towards limiting the preparation process as seen in all the quotes provided.

So what happens if you could force a spell to be prepared without actually using the preparation process? For example, you had 4/5/5/5/3/2/1 for slots for being an 11th level wizard with 16 intelligence. After expending all but the last you cast your 25th for the day but it prepared a 26th. Could you cast it?

Well thankfully I'm not asking a rhetorical or theoretical question.

You instantly recall any one spell of 5th level or lower that you have used during the past 24 hours. The spell must have been actually cast during that period. The recalled spell is stored in your mind as through prepared in the normal fashion.
If the recalled spell requires material components, you must provide them. The recovered spell is not usable until the material components are available.And as Mordenkainen’s Lucubration is intended to, you can. And it's not a fluke either. Take the circlet of mages from the MiC, Spending 1 or more charges when you cast a spell allows you to avoid losing that prepared spell or spell slot (as if you hadn't cast it). While you could argue the example wizard's 27th spell for the day should be counted as his 26th, that's a loose association with the implications of "as if you hadn't cast it" which it's self sits beside the main text instead of being a part of it. Mechanically it prevents the prepared spell from being spent and that's all a wizard is intended to need.

daremetoidareyo

2016-12-26, 08:27 PM

Just found this weird one: you can turn entire pieces of architecture into a single spell spellbook through the use of knowledge architecture and engineering. Complete arcane p. 186.

Telok

2016-12-26, 10:19 PM

Well, not so much magic marttm per se as an open economic market trading in magic items but, yeah, being able to trade junk loot for half its value in stuff you actually want is the default assumption of the game. DM's are, of course, free to mess with that assumption but you can't blame the system for the changes to the rules made by individual DM's.

The assumption the rules are built on are is that the characters will have around a certain amount of useful magic stuff at each level. There are guidelines that talk about selling magic items in a nebulous fashion for half price. None of it says that there is guaranteed to be a store/person/whatever that a character can go to and buy the exact magic item that they want. Buying tiny +1 chargebreaking, sweeping, sundering, explosive nun-chucks just because you're in a town and have a wagon full of gold is completely in DM allowance territory.

Vaern

2016-12-26, 10:29 PM

Just found this weird one: you can turn entire pieces of architecture into a single spell spellbook through the use of knowledge architecture and engineering. Complete arcane p. 186.
I know there are rules about tattooing spells to yourself, carving them into a staff, or etching them onto other pieces of equipment, but I never even considered that. I may have to use this at some point o.o

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-27, 12:11 AM

The assumption the rules are built on are is that the characters will have around a certain amount of useful magic stuff at each level. There are guidelines that talk about selling magic items in a nebulous fashion for half price. None of it says that there is guaranteed to be a store/person/whatever that a character can go to and buy the exact magic item that they want. Buying tiny +1 chargebreaking, sweeping, sundering, explosive nun-chucks just because you're in a town and have a wagon full of gold is completely in DM allowance territory.

Community gold limits, DMG pg 137; two pages after WBL. It's assumed that just about anything under a community's gp limit is available for purchase. Something as remarkably specific as your example would require a commission rather than being made already but that's just putting it off for a day per 1000 gp rather than having it altogether unavailable.

Even then, the "just about" I mentioned is because they wanted to leave an out for a DM to say no to specific items rather than to only allow specific items. It's an okay to blacklist rather than a call for a whitelist.

Mr Adventurer

2016-12-27, 04:32 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-27, 04:42 AM

Presumably commissions require that an appropriate NPC (e.g. Wizard with Craft Magic Arms and Armour) also be in the settlement per the levelled NPC rules?

Not necessarily. Brokers who can get in touch with crafters could easily be a thing. With such high-value commodities and select clientelle, there's certainly a niche for persons who specialize in putting the former in the hands of the latter for a nominal fee.

Mr Adventurer

2016-12-27, 06:10 AM

Not necessarily. Brokers who can get in touch with crafters could easily be a thing. With such high-value commodities and select clientelle, there's certainly a niche for persons who specialize in putting the former in the hands of the latter for a nominal fee.

Surely that's a separate service, though, with its own charge, and probably its own time requirement outside of the 1000gp per day crafting guideline.

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-27, 06:21 AM

Surely that's a separate service, though, with its own charge, and probably its own time requirement outside of the 1000gp per day crafting guideline.

Even so, that's a minor detail to be worked out between individual groups.

The point remains that anything under the GP limit for the community is presumed to be available unless the DM specifically precludes it rather than it being presumed that nothing is available unless specifically included. Allowances were made for DM's to make judgment calls on potentially disruptive items but that doesn't change the base presumption.

Zanos

2016-12-27, 01:13 PM

Mato

2016-12-27, 04:36 PM

Yep, the system more or less assumes that the PCs will be able to purchase the gear that their characters need/want rather than relying on armor and weapon sized for halflings they got from random rolls.Pretty much, if you have the magic item compendium you really need to read the right side of page 231 and the "where to buy" section on page 232.

Telok

2016-12-28, 01:03 AM

Community gold limits, DMG pg 137; two pages after WBL. It's assumed that just about anything under a community's gp limit is available for purchase. Something as remarkably specific as your example would require a commission rather than being made already but that's just putting it off for a day per 1000 gp rather than having it altogether unavailable.

Even then, the "just about" I mentioned is because they wanted to leave an out for a DM to say no to specific items rather than to only allow specific items. It's an okay to blacklist rather than a call for a whitelist.

What's hilarious is that if you follow those world building guidelines as rules you get every hamlet of 50 people having:

20 Blessed bandages
16 0-level spell scrolls (per spell)
8 1st-level spell scrolls (per spell)
4 Oils of magic weapon
4 Potion of cure light wounds
4 Potion of endure elements
4 Potion of enlarge person
4 Potion of mage armor
4 Potion of magic fang
4 Potion of protection from chaos
4 Potion of protection from evil
4 Potion of protection from good
4 Potion of protection from law
4 Potion of remove fear
4 Potion of shield of faith +2
4 Quaal's feather token, anchor
4 Skill shard (per skill)
4 Universal solvent
2 Oil of bless weapon

And one each of the following:
Daylight pellet
Elixir of love
2nd-level spell scroll (per spell)
Unguent of timelessness
Everfull mug
Quaal's feather token, fan
Skill shard, greater (per skill)
Tanglepatch
Dust of tracelessness
Elixir of hiding
Elixir of sneaking
Elixir of swimming
Elixir of vision
Incense of concentration
Jumping caltrops
Silversheen
Blight stone
Elixir of flaming fists
Potion of barkskin +2
Potion of bear's endurance
Potion of blur
Potion of bull's strength
Potion of cat's grace
Potion of cure moderate wounds
Potion of darkvision
Potion of delay poison
Potion of eagle's splendor
Potion of fox's cunning
Potion or oil of invisibility
Potion of lesser restoration
Potion or oil of levitate
Potion of owl's wisdom
Potion of remove paralysis
Potion of resist energy 10
Potion of shield of faith +3
Potion of spider climb
Quaal's feather token, bird
Stench stone
Everlasting rations
3rd-level spell scroll (per spell)
0-level spell (per spell)
Electric eel elixir
Essentia jewel
Life ring
Quaal's feather token, tree

Which totals to 151 magic items, three per person. This, in a tiny hamlet of 50 people that may not even have a single spellcaster in it. Very silly.

Edit: My bad, I made a mistake by posting late at night. It's still very silly but the numbers are different.

Kelb_Panthera

2016-12-28, 01:12 AM

What's hilarious is that if you follow those world building guidelines as rules you get every hamlet of 50 people having:

20 Blessed bandages
16 0-level spell scrolls (per spell)
8 1st-level spell scrolls (per spell)
4 Oils of magic weapon
4 Potion of cure light wounds
4 Potion of endure elements
4 Potion of enlarge person
4 Potion of mage armor
4 Potion of magic fang
4 Potion of protection from chaos
4 Potion of protection from evil
4 Potion of protection from good
4 Potion of protection from law
4 Potion of remove fear
4 Potion of shield of faith +2
4 Quaal's feather token, anchor
4 Skill shard (per skill)
4 Universal solvent
2 Oil of bless weapon

And one each of the following:
Daylight pellet
Elixir of love
2nd-level spell scroll (per spell)
Unguent of timelessness
Everfull mug
Quaal's feather token, fan
Skill shard, greater (per skill)
Tanglepatch
Dust of tracelessness
Elixir of hiding
Elixir of sneaking
Elixir of swimming
Elixir of vision
Incense of concentration
Jumping caltrops
Silversheen
Blight stone
Elixir of flaming fists
Potion of barkskin +2
Potion of bear's endurance
Potion of blur
Potion of bull's strength
Potion of cat's grace
Potion of cure moderate wounds
Potion of darkvision
Potion of delay poison
Potion of eagle's splendor
Potion of fox's cunning
Potion or oil of invisibility
Potion of lesser restoration
Potion or oil of levitate
Potion of owl's wisdom
Potion of remove paralysis
Potion of resist energy 10
Potion of shield of faith +3
Potion of spider climb
Quaal's feather token, bird
Stench stone
Everlasting rations
3rd-level spell scroll (per spell)
0-level spell (per spell)
Electric eel elixir
Essentia jewel
Life ring
Quaal's feather token, tree

Which totals to 151 magic items, three per person. This, in a tiny hamlet of 50 people that may not even have a single spellcaster in it. Very silly.

Where'd you get this? Not from chapter 5 of the DMG.

nyjastul69

2016-12-28, 01:41 AM

What's hilarious is that if you follow those world building guidelines as rules you get every hamlet of 50 people having:

20 Blessed bandages
16 0-level spell scrolls (per spell)
8 1st-level spell scrolls (per spell)
4 Oils of magic weapon
4 Potion of cure light wounds
4 Potion of endure elements
4 Potion of enlarge person
4 Potion of mage armor
4 Potion of magic fang
4 Potion of protection from chaos
4 Potion of protection from evil
4 Potion of protection from good
4 Potion of protection from law
4 Potion of remove fear
4 Potion of shield of faith +2
4 Quaal's feather token, anchor
4 Skill shard (per skill)
4 Universal solvent
2 Oil of bless weapon

And one each of the following:
Daylight pellet
Elixir of love
2nd-level spell scroll (per spell)
Unguent of timelessness
Everfull mug
Quaal's feather token, fan
Skill shard, greater (per skill)
Tanglepatch
Dust of tracelessness
Elixir of hiding
Elixir of sneaking
Elixir of swimming
Elixir of vision
Incense of concentration
Jumping caltrops
Silversheen
Blight stone
Elixir of flaming fists
Potion of barkskin +2
Potion of bear's endurance
Potion of blur
Potion of bull's strength
Potion of cat's grace
Potion of cure moderate wounds
Potion of darkvision
Potion of delay poison
Potion of eagle's splendor
Potion of fox's cunning
Potion or oil of invisibility
Potion of lesser restoration
Potion or oil of levitate
Potion of owl's wisdom
Potion of remove paralysis
Potion of resist energy 10
Potion of shield of faith +3
Potion of spider climb
Quaal's feather token, bird
Stench stone
Everlasting rations
3rd-level spell scroll (per spell)
0-level spell (per spell)
Electric eel elixir
Essentia jewel
Life ring
Quaal's feather token, tree

Which totals to 151 magic items, three per person. This, in a tiny hamlet of 50 people that may not even have a single spellcaster in it. Very silly.

I haven't seen this list in the DMG regarding how hamlets are created. Can you elaborate on where you found this list?

Telok

2016-12-28, 03:30 PM

I haven't seen this list in the DMG regarding how hamlets are created. Can you elaborate on where you found this list?

Ok, DMG p.137 top of the right hand column, second and third paragraphs.

It's an explanation of how the gold limits work in the town building. In a hamlet of 90 people there are all items available under 450 gp, there is ready cash (how much stuff the PCs can sell) and...

Right, I made a mistake. Serves me right for posting late at night.

All items of value under the GP limit (100 gp for a village) are available. The amount of items available is determined by 1/10th the population times 1/2 the GP limit. For the example hamlet that's 450. So all 1st level potions cost 50 gp, therefore there are 9 of each potion available. First level scrolls cost half of what a potion costs, so there are 18 of each first level scroll. Zero level scrolls are half of what first level scrolls cost, so there are 36 of each zero level scroll. And so on for each and every item up to the GP limit.

Note that the example doesn't say there are 30 swords for sale, it says that there are 30 longswords for sale. So there are also 30 scimitars, 30 tridents, 30 heavy flails, 90 light maces, 90 spiked gauntlets, 90 longspears, etc. Try doing the math for a large town some time.

Edit: Oh, and the list of stuff was from the MIC. It's just the first chunk of the tools section that I used as an example selection of magic items.

Zanos

2016-12-28, 03:38 PM

You're assuming that all those items exist simultaneously. The rules are an abstraction of what the settlement actually has.

Ruslan

2016-12-28, 03:38 PM

Note that the example doesn't say there are 30 swords for sale, it says that there are 30 longswords for sale. So there are also 30 scimitars, 30 tridents, 30 heavy flails, 90 light maces, 90 spiked gauntlets, 90 longspears, etc. And at the same time, the hamlet's militia will be using clubs and slings, and wearing padded armor.

Flickerdart

2016-12-28, 03:47 PM

And at the same time, the hamlet's militia will be using clubs and slings, and wearing padded armor.

Because all those longswords are in the merchant's shop. Militiamen can't afford them!

Mato

2016-12-28, 05:07 PM

Note that the example doesn't say there are 30 swords for sale, it says that there are 30 longswords for sale.Yeah, because the players want to buy longswords.

What the entry is trying to say the players submitted a query of "longswords" to the town's quantum super position of items and they discover that the hamlet only can offer up to 30 such swords for sale due to gp limitations. Not that the Hamlet has 30 longswords, but it can offer 30 longswords.

What they have surely observed is that the city as a whole can generate a 150gp stockpile of iron and what they haven't said is how much of that stockpile is currently in spare rods, hammers, or fireplace pokers which they are willing to sharpening the edges of because someone walked in and said they'll pay them triple what the material is worth.

daremetoidareyo

2016-12-28, 05:23 PM

Yeah, because the players want to buy longswords.

What the entry is trying to say the players submitted a query of "longswords" to the town's quantum super position of items and they discover that the hamlet only can offer up to 30 such swords for sale due to gp limitations. Not that the Hamlet has 30 longswords, but it can offer 30 longswords.

What they have surely observed is that the city as a whole can generate a 150gp stockpile of iron and what they haven't said is how much of that stockpile is currently in spare rods, hammers, or fireplace pokers which they are willing to sharpening the edges of because someone walked in and said they'll pay them triple what the material is worth.

So if put a hamlet and outlying area into a demiplane enclosed in a wall of force, and had adventurers visit the town on a set schedule....and we put that demiplane onto a plane that had two giant turbines, we could use clockwork and magnets for the plane to generate energy with the ever growing mass? Clean renewable energy! Ever few millennia gate out all of the iron weapons.

Telok

2016-12-29, 12:55 AM

You're assuming that all those items exist simultaneously. The rules are an abstraction of what the settlement actually has.

Yet if you take the town building and WBL guidelines as rules the PCs can go in and buy those items, all of them. It's not like the PCs can't afford them all after a couple of levels.

Really what those tables in the DMG are for is a quick way to make up a random town on short notice. If you try to use them as the base rules for world building or running the whole game you get funny results like being able to buy enough weapons and armor to equip the entire town and enough potions to give everyone several. And 20th level commoners, lots of them.

Mato

2016-12-29, 02:10 PM

If you try to use them as the base rules for world building or running the whole game you get funny resultsLike it takes people six seconds per object on the floor to clean a room which is why no one has invented Legos.

Table waiters are also unable to successfully deliver drinks during the lunch rush, it takes a move action to pick up a cup and then they have to use a standard action to move leaving them with nothing but a free action to drop the cup while walking. To compensate for this, bartenders just hire halfing drunk fists to throw multiple beverages per round.

Living is also pretty tough when the local evil kingdom keeps stealing your money. But not being able to work more than 8 hours a day at least keeps the slaves happy.

Troacctid

2016-12-29, 03:10 PM

Table waiters are also unable to successfully deliver drinks during the lunch rush, it takes a move action to pick up a cup and then they have to use a standard action to move leaving them with nothing but a free action to drop the cup while walking. To compensate for this, bartenders just hire halfing drunk fists to throw multiple beverages per round.
You can do it faster with a Profession (waiter) check, which is why restaurants need to train their servers. (Profession is trained-only!)

Rizban

2016-12-29, 03:19 PM

You can do it faster with a Profession (waiter) check, which is why restaurants need to train their servers. (Profession is trained-only!)

Technically, using Profession just earns you gold from a nebulous source for a week's worth of work. It also grants some non-specific knowledge to your character for use in "specialized tasks" created exclusively by DM fiat to justify your spending skill points on Profession instead of something actually meaningful to an adventurer.

It notably doesn't actually allow you to work more efficiently or break action economy... It notably doesn't even actually allow to you do any particular job, except by DM fiat. It only allows you to earn a trivial amount of gold.

Jowgen

2016-12-29, 03:29 PM

I got a rather obscure one that I only noticed recently while doing some checking for that Steadfast Boots thread.

If a charging foe moves into a threatened square, the soldier who set against the charge makes an attack (with the charging foe taking a –2 penalty to AC) that deals double damage on a successful hit. If a noncharging foe moves into a threatened square, the soldier who set against the charge can still make an attack but won’t deal double damage.

So yeah. Setting against a charge, as a readied action, comes with the unique benefit that you're not strictly limited to acting when your defined trigger (someone charging) occurs. At any point while the action is readied, you have the option of doing a regular attack against a non-charging creature that enters your threatened area instead.

It's doesn't change a lot (well, at least until steadfast boots enter the picture), but it's something.

Bohandas

2017-04-09, 02:15 AM

I just today noticed for the first time that Corellon Larethian doesn't have the magic domain. Which is strange because he's described as a god of magic in the player's handbook

Eladrinblade

2017-04-09, 12:13 PM

That's funny; I was just thinking about changing that yesterday. All the goodly race gods have protection as a domain when they would each be better served by something else, I think. Corellon should have magic, moradin should have war, etc.

GilesTheCleric

2017-04-09, 12:19 PM

The full complement of Corellon Larethian's domains includes: Celerity, Chaos, Community, Elf, Good, Liberation, Magic, Plant, Protection, War (CD 109, 110, DaD 58, 62, Drag283 39, PHB 32, 106, RotW 20, LGD 37, LGCS 11, FaP 125, FRCS 238, DA5 104).

Moradin has: Craft, Creation, Dwarf, Earth, Fire, Good, Law, Protection, Portal, Strength, War (CD 109, 115, DaD 58, 83, Drag283 39, PHB 32, 107, RoS 17, Und 53, LGD 118, LGCS 11, FaP 121, FRCS 238).

Bohandas

2017-04-09, 12:57 PM

The full complement of Corellon Larethian's domains includes: Celerity, Chaos, Community, Elf, Good, Liberation, Magic, Plant, Protection, War (CD 109, 110, DaD 58, 62, Drag283 39, PHB 32, 106, RotW 20, LGD 37, LGCS 11, FaP 125, FRCS 238, DA5 104).

Which one of those adds the magic domain?
EDIT:

And what's LGD? And what's LGCS?

bekeleven

2017-04-09, 01:54 PM

Like it takes people six seconds per object on the floor to clean a room which is why no one has invented Legos.
I've gained a lot of mileage applying the mob template to my legos.

Rizban

2017-04-10, 12:15 AM

Which one of those adds the magic domain?
EDIT:

And what's LGD? And what's LGCS?LGCS is Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook/Standards (Name varied depending on the update)
LGD is Living Greyhawk Deities

Official 3.5 Living Greyhawk website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome)

Note that the most recent 3.5 edition of LGCS has the deities section removed to its own document, which supersedes any earlier publications.

atemu1234

2017-04-10, 09:57 AM

It was nearly a year after I taught myself how to play that I learned that dexterity doesn't apply to damage with ranged weapons.

Inevitability

2017-04-10, 10:09 AM

It was nearly a year after I taught myself how to play that I learned that dexterity doesn't apply to damage with ranged weapons.

That's IMHO not necessarily a bad thing.

Venger

2017-04-10, 10:24 AM

That's IMHO not necessarily a bad thing.

I think there's at least one way to do this. Champion of correlon larethion?

Inevitability

2017-04-10, 10:31 AM

I think there's at least one way to do this. Champion of correlon larethion?

That only applies your dexterity modifier to damage rolls with a short list of weapons, all of them blades.

Lazymancer

2017-04-10, 10:48 AM

There is actually a weapon like this:

Greathammer: Damage 1d12, Critical 19–20/×4, (Bludgeoning)

Pretty much the ultimate melee weapon. From Monster Manual IV, p.101

Looking at the entry, it doesn't say that it is a two-handed weapon anywhere that I see, does it? That makes it sort of insane. I assume it is meant to be two-handed, and even with that it is very nice.
That's Goliath Greathammer from Races of the Stone. The only difference is that critical threat in RoS is natural 20.

And - yes. It is two-handed melee weapon there.

Zanos

2017-04-10, 10:57 AM

That only applies your dexterity modifier to damage rolls with a short list of weapons, all of them blades.
IIRC, targeteer fighter from one of the dragon magazine issues can take dex to damage with ranged weapons in place of a fighter bonus feat, but it only works on stuff that isn't crit-immune.

I think it's Dragon #310.

ComaVision

2017-04-10, 10:58 AM

I think there's at least one way to do this. Champion of correlon larethion?

That only applies your dexterity modifier to damage rolls with a short list of weapons, all of them blades.

Two easy ways are a level of Targeteer Fighter (DragMag) or the Dead Eye feat from Dragon Compendium.

Inevitability

2017-04-10, 11:00 AM

IIRC, targeteer fighter from one of the dragon magazine issues can take dex to damage with ranged weapons in place of a fighter bonus feat, but it only works on stuff that isn't crit-immune.

I think it's Dragon #310.

It's kind of baffling how no developer ever seems to comprehend that something without a pulse may still have vulnerable parts. It's like any undead or plant is nothing but a large block of solid, uniform matter in their eyes.

Zanos

2017-04-10, 11:08 AM

It's kind of baffling how no developer ever seems to comprehend that something without a pulse may still have vulnerable parts. It's like any undead or plant is nothing but a large block of solid, uniform matter in their eyes.
I think it makes sense for undead or constructs, where the thing keeping them going is an external animating force of magic. Negative energy and an elemental spirit respectively. So hitting any part of them pretty much is going to cause them the same amount of harm; you need to batter the physical shell until the animating force can't make it move anymore. I guess you could break a skeleton's or golem's leg, but that would have to be modeled differently.

Plants and stuff like clockwork constructs you should definitely be able to crit, though. They pretty clearly have parts that are vital to their continued functioning. Certain undead also do have a purposeful anatomy, and those should also be subject to critical hits.

Segev

2017-04-10, 11:09 AM

Even with humanoid golems and elementals, dealing damage to joints would more swiftly make the "body" unable to support itself.

Venger

2017-04-10, 11:11 AM

It's kind of baffling how no developer ever seems to comprehend that something without a pulse may still have vulnerable parts. It's like any undead or plant is nothing but a large block of solid, uniform matter in their eyes.

I mean, this is D&D, so we living suckers are just water balloons full of blood too. in a HP-based system, no one actually has any organs or vital parts, injury is just a large, undifferentiated mass.

I think it makes sense for undead or constructs, where the thing keeping them going is an external animating force of magic. Negative energy and an elemental spirit respectively. So hitting any part of them pretty much is going to cause them the same amount of harm; you need to batter the physical shell until the animating force can't make it move anymore. I guess you could break a skeleton's or golem's leg, but that would have to be modeled differently.

Plants and stuff like clockwork constructs you should definitely be able to crit, though. They pretty clearly have parts that are vital to their continued functioning.

Fluff aside, it's also an issue of game balance. Several types don't need to go out of their way to spit in the rogue's face, it's already a weak class. This is one change of pathfinders I do think is a smart decision.

Zanos

2017-04-10, 11:16 AM

Fluff aside, it's also an issue of game balance. Several types don't need to go out of their way to spit in the rogue's face, it's already a weak class. This is one change of pathfinders I do think is a smart decision.
Unfortunately despite that the rogue is relatively worse in Pathfinder than it is in 3.5 due to several new classes wholesale ripping it's schtick but doing it better.

And to be fair these types kind of mess with a lot of character concepts, and even still are often not really a threat. Undead and constructs are pretty often just big piles of mindless immunities that you can trick into walking into a hole by throwing a tarp on top of it.

Venger

2017-04-10, 11:26 AM

Unfortunately despite that the rogue is relatively worse in Pathfinder than it is in 3.5 due to several new classes wholesale ripping it's schtick but doing it better.

And to be fair these types kind of mess with a lot of character concepts, and even still are often not really a threat. Undead and constructs are pretty often just big piles of mindless immunities that you can trick into walking into a hole by throwing a tarp on top of it.

You've got me there.

I was just referring to undead not being immune to precision damage. I'm not overly familiar with pathfinder, but all that does definitely make sense.

death390

2017-04-10, 03:45 PM

There is an ACF that lets 3.5 rouges get 1/2 precision damage on precision immune enemies trading in trap sense. penetrationg strike i think it was.

Venger

2017-04-10, 03:48 PM

There is an ACF that lets 3.5 rouges get 1/2 precision damage on precision immune enemies trading in trap sense. penetrationg strike i think it was.

yes, it's penetrating strike. only applies while flanking though, so ranged rogues are still kind of boned (no pun intended)

Thurbane

2017-04-10, 04:17 PM

I'm gonna throw this in there, since I only recently found it myself:

Charisma: A creature’s Charisma modifier affects the save DC for any spell-like abilities it has. Use Charisma for anything pitting the creature’s will against an opponent, such as gaze attacks, charms, compulsions, and energy drain effects. Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead have no Constitution score, so any poison attack an undead creature has would use Charisma to determine the save DC.

Barbarian: There are not many barbarians among the undead, but gangs of barbarian ghouls and ghasts are used as shock troops by the more powerful lords of Xaphan. A raging undead barbarian does not gain an increase in Constitution (or anything dependent upon Constitution such as hit points or Fortitude saves) but uses its normal Charisma modifier instead of its Constitution modifier to determine how long a rage lasts. Because undead are immune to fatigue, an undead barbarian is not penalized when a rage ends.

There is an ACF that lets 3.5 rouges get 1/2 precision damage on precision immune enemies trading in trap sense. penetrationg strike i think it was.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/118094/2869081-1533577-rouge_rogue.jpg

death390

2017-04-10, 04:22 PM

Edit: nvm flanking is melee only.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-04-10, 04:26 PM

Bronk

2017-04-10, 04:55 PM

There is an ACF that lets 3.5 rouges get 1/2 precision damage on precision immune enemies trading in trap sense. penetrationg strike i think it was.

There are two versions... Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape, and the more advantageous version, Lightbringer Penetrating Strike from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204976-Penetrating-Strike-question

ColorBlindNinja

2017-04-10, 05:18 PM

Only Humanoids can become Wights. This means as cool as the idea of a Chicken Wight is, it isn't possible RAW.:smallfrown:

Bohandas

2017-04-10, 05:19 PM

I think it makes sense for undead or constructs, where the thing keeping them going is an external animating force of magic. Negative energy and an elemental spirit respectively. So hitting any part of them pretty much is going to cause them the same amount of harm; you need to batter the physical shell until the animating force can't make it move anymore. I guess you could break a skeleton's or golem's leg, but that would have to be modeled differently.

Also, Vampires definitely have vital body parts

ShurikVch

2017-04-10, 06:40 PM

Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)-Kineticist skills:
Autohypnosis* (Wis), Disable Device (Dex), and Intimidate (Cha).Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm):
Disable Device (Int; Trained Only)

Only Humanoids can become Wights. This means as cool as the idea of a Chicken Wight is, it isn't possible RAW.:smallfrown:It's incorrect; if you're talking about the Wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)'s Create Spawn, then it's not the only way to make Wight - for example, Negative Levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) :
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.If you meant Wight template - there are two of them, and while one in Savage Species says it "can be added to any humanoid", the other one (in Dragon #300) - required only "any corporeal creature except constructs, oozes, and undead" (thus Chicken Wight is RAW-legal); even if somebody will argue about how "newer stuff should totally replace all the older", then Fortress of the Yuan-Ti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_the_Yuan-Ti) (September 2007) have Baboon Wights:

http://www.thentao.com/frp/_media/v2-23-baboonwight.jpg?cache=&w=400&h=526&tok=7c6298

Malimar

2017-04-10, 06:45 PM

There are rules in Cityscape for getting drunk (Pg. 44). You can down a number of drinks per hour equal to half your Con score. After that you have to make DC 15 Forts saves with each additional drink increasing the save by 1.

Edit: Every time you fail the save, you take a - 1 penalty to Dex and Wis and - 1 to Con checks to resist future saves VS getting even more plastered.
I didn't realize there were rules in Cityscape. Last time I had to run a drinking contest, I used the older rules in Arms & Equipment Guide, which are similar except the DC goes up much faster.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-04-10, 07:10 PM

Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)-Kineticist skills:Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm):

It's incorrect; if you're talking about the Wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)'s Create Spawn, then it's not the only way to make Wight - for example, Negative Levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) :If you meant Wight template - there are two of them, and while one in Savage Species says it "can be added to any humanoid", the other one (in Dragon #300) - required only "any corporeal creature except constructs, oozes, and undead" (thus Chicken Wight is RAW-legal); even if somebody will argue about how "newer stuff should totally replace all the older", then Fortress of the Yuan-Ti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_the_Yuan-Ti) (September 2007) have Baboon Wights:

How odd. I was looking at the Wight's Create Spawn. Leave it to WOtC to have nonsensical rules.

ShurikVch

2017-04-10, 07:24 PM

How odd. I was looking at the Wight's Create Spawn. Leave it to WOtC to have nonsensical rules.Also, there is a Dragon Wight (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/cg/cg20010727a):
Create Spawn (Su): Any creature slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-04-10, 07:43 PM

Also, there is a Dragon Wight (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/cg/cg20010727a):

Because of course there's a Dragon Wight.:smallsigh:

Thurbane

2017-04-10, 07:59 PM

http://www.thentao.com/frp/_media/v2-23-baboonwight.jpg?cache=&w=400&h=526&tok=7c6298

Why do I suddenly and overwhelmingly want a tattoo of that undead baboon?

Rizban

2017-04-10, 08:55 PM

Why do I suddenly and overwhelmingly want a tattoo of that undead baboon?

Do it. Upload pics.

Bohandas

2017-04-14, 10:39 PM

I think it makes sense for undead or constructs, where the thing keeping them going is an external animating force of magic.

If that's the rationale then they should be like the undead creatures in Quake and The Evil Dead. Not actually killable at all, only neutralizable by destroying their moving parts.

Rizban

2017-04-15, 04:53 PM

If that's the rationale then they should be like the undead creatures in Quake and The Evil Dead. Not actually killable at all, only neutralizable by destroying their moving parts.I've always generally assumed that is what was meant by "when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed."

Douglas

2017-04-15, 05:19 PM

martixy

2017-04-15, 07:34 PM

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/118094/2869081-1533577-rouge_rogue.jpg

Wait, so... Rouge the rogue cosplaying as Rogue stealing a rouge gem... That's a fun picture.

There's lots of rules that are not exactly obscure, but people never remember.
For example moving diagonally costs 1.5 times normal movement.
The generic scrying rules(in the schools descriptions, the same ones that say you can't teleport things mid-air, or the +4 vs illusions you can give to your allies by pointing it out).
Also, the difference between spread and burst(the former ignores cover, the latter doesn't).

Other things are various implications of normal rules:
For example dragons can breathe into an AMF, but can't breathe out of one. (Any instantaneous effect that does not allow spell resistance can penetrate AMF. This includes Breath weapons.)
One can ready Swift actions and can take them in the middle of other actions. (Due to their strong similarity to free actions.)

Others are just plain obscure:
Weapons with effects that trigger on critical hits still do so vs crit-immune enemies(things such as bursts, etc.) I'm not exactly clear what happens with effects such as blood in the water though.
A creature takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks made to maintain a hold with only the part of its body used to make the attack. Monstrous feats can reduce that to 0 I think.
The rules for when an item is allowed a save and when it takes damage:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#itemsSurvivingafteraSavingTh row (Basically that whole page is a treasure trove of obscure or frequently ignored rules.)
I mean technically, all the rules to model environmental damage are there. It's just that no one uses them consistently.
You can also make unarmed attacks while holding the charge of a touch spell, but it seizes to be a touch attack and becomes a regular attack roll.

Bohandas

2017-04-15, 09:49 PM

It's kind of baffling how no developer ever seems to comprehend that something without a pulse may still have vulnerable parts. It's like any undead or plant is nothing but a large block of solid, uniform matter in their eyes.

Even more annoying are the things that don't have constitution scores, which from a game mechanics perspective are no more than a measure of how difficult a creature is to destroy and are in no way intrinsically tied to blood or metabolism or anything of that sort.

And incorporeal creatures lacking strength scores is stupid too. It would be ok if there were no ghost touch items, but there are so it's stupid

Rizban

2017-04-15, 10:05 PM

A party is not supposed to have multiple encounters with a CR equal to the party's level.

From DMG 3.5 p49 under the "What's Challenging" heading:
So, what counts as a “challenge”? Since a game session probably includes many encounters, you don’t want to make every encounter one that taxes the PCs to their limits. They would have to stop the adventure and rest for an extensive period after every fight, and that slows down the game.The developers were clearly aware of the 15 Minute Adventuring Day problem and took extra steps to explain that model is not they way they designed the game to work.

Yes, it does say, "This means, on average, that after about four encounters of the party’s level the PCs need to rest, heal, and regain spells. A fifth encounter would probably wipe them out." This is primarily where the 4 on CR encounters/day misconception comes from. However, the very next sentence goes on to explain that parties are expected to be able to face twice as many or 4x as many low-level encounters as they would on CR encounters. It even gives a handy dandy little chart of what percentage of each difficulty encounter a party is expected to face in any given adventuring day and gives two pages of rules on adjusting encounter difficulty to avoid bogging the narrative down with excessive rests.

Encounter Difficulty% of TotalEncounterDescription
10%EasyEL lower than party level
20%Easy if handled properlySpecial (see below)
50%ChallengingEL equals that of party
15%Very difficultEL 1–4 higher than party level
5%OverpoweringEL 5+ higher than party level

The example given for "Easy if handled properly" is an evil cleric bolstering and controlling mindless undead, which would be a Challenging or Very Difficult encounter, but the PCs are expected to kill the cleric first and then be able to mop up the leaderless weak undead rather easily.

Allanimal

2017-04-18, 04:07 PM

For example moving diagonally costs 1.5 times normal movement.

Wait, people forget that?

Telok

2017-04-18, 04:51 PM

Wait, people forget that?

The math is "too complicated".

KillianHawkeye

2017-04-18, 06:51 PM

The math is "too complicated".

I'm going to state unilaterally that "No, it damn well isn't." All you have to remember is to switch off 5' and 10' every other diagonal. That isn't complicated at all.

Sayt

2017-04-18, 08:51 PM

(PF)Creatures in or adjacent to large bodies of acid need to take a DC13 fort save each round or take 1 pt of con damage from the fumes. This is a poison affect that applies even to acid immune creatures.

ZamielVanWeber

2017-04-18, 09:09 PM

Dragons suffer half penalty to Spot based on distance (-1 per 20 instead of -1 per 10)

Venger

2017-04-18, 09:52 PM

Commoners are literate.

Thurbane

2017-04-18, 10:49 PM

Commoners are literate.

That's just...wow. I had never thought about that before.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2v7ul21.jpg

Telok

2017-04-18, 10:58 PM

I'm going to state unilaterally that "No, it damn well isn't." All you have to remember is to switch off 5' and 10' every other diagonal. That isn't complicated at all.

A fair bit 4e movement and AoE was predicated on it. And I've had people argue with me, on this forum, that 2nd grade subtraction is too much math for D&D.

Particle_Man

2017-04-18, 11:00 PM

Commoners are literate.

That's just...wow. I had never thought about that before.

Seconded. That is a difference from ye olde medievale worldes that should be HUGE! It also makes the barbarians stand out even more. I mean, Jack the peasant farmer can read and Yondo Skull-Splitter can't?

When you add that to the fact that almost every sentient being speaks, reads and writes common, you would think that books, road signs, etc., would be more common.

And the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class suddenly makes more sense than I thought.

I've got to think about this one some more. Not saying it is Tippyverse stuff, but it is World Changing stuff.

Sagetim

2017-04-18, 11:18 PM

Commoners literate? Shenanigans. Next you'll be telling me that Binders don't subsist on the blood of the innocent and that their magic is safe and easy to use.

One special material I never noticed until I was digging through a 3.5 reference document full of the various special materials was Thinaun. From Complete Warrior page 136. If a creature dies while touching it, their soul gets trapped in the item (or weapon). This is pretty handy, because you can then use that item and the trapped soul to rez them for half cost. Great if your fighter gets struck down in the big boss fight. The problem is that if the weapon is broken, it releases the soul. It also releases old souls to trap new ones, having only space for one at a time.

But you can also use it to make vestiges. You know, depending on how you interpret something. Truenamers get an Utterance to transform a weapon into any special material for about 5 rounds. So if you take that now Thinaun dagger and get the finishing 'you are not at -10 and dead' blow on something, you can soul trap it in the dagger. When the duration runs out, the dagger isn't destroyed, but it ceases to be Thinaun. Since it was not destroyed, the soul is not released, but since it is no longer Thinaun, the soul is no longer in the dagger. Which seems to me to be the only reliable way to make someone or something into a Vestige.

Mordaedil

2017-04-19, 02:25 AM

Commoner being literate makes a fair bit more sense with there being only one common language (as well as a bunch of racial languages) the histories of the settings being a fair bit longer than human histories on Earth, and the relative technological advancement being roughly modern, but magic cocking it up to the point where things look medieval, but everybody has all the luxuries of a modern society. Playing in an accurate medieval would be a ton of non-fun and involve very little literacy. You'd have to bring sages with you to dungeons to read nameplates on graves.

A bit of an enlightening thing came to me the other day when one of my friends asked me "Hey, do you think Quick Draw is almost a mandatory feat for a fighter to take?" and I thought about a specific rule and said "Naw, the fighter starts with a BAB of +1. They can just draw while closing the distance using a move action and then attack."

Apparently this was an obscure rule, but quick draw is useless unless you are making a throwing dagger user. Because as long as you have a BAB of +1 or higher, you can draw your weapons as part of another move action. Curious how many people caught that one.

Zanos

2017-04-19, 08:44 AM

Stealth Marmot

2017-04-19, 09:18 AM

A bit of an enlightening thing came to me the other day when one of my friends asked me "Hey, do you think Quick Draw is almost a mandatory feat for a fighter to take?" and I thought about a specific rule and said "Naw, the fighter starts with a BAB of +1. They can just draw while closing the distance using a move action and then attack."

Apparently this was an obscure rule, but quick draw is useless unless you are making a throwing dagger user. Because as long as you have a BAB of +1 or higher, you can draw your weapons as part of another move action. Curious how many people caught that one.

Most do know that, but Quick Draw has other reasons to be taken. If you are within 5 feet, you can do a full attack with Quick Draw instead of just a standard action attack. You also cannot charge as a standard action, so you can only charge and draw a weapon in one round if you have Quick Draw.

Dagroth

2017-04-19, 09:23 AM

Sagetim

2017-04-19, 09:29 AM

Or if you never put your weapon away... after all, there's no penalty to having your weapon in hand at all times if you're a standard melee class.

You know, except for not being able to use your hands for anything else, like eating, drinking, or catching a falling baby. Oh, and if you're in town, people are going to think you're trying to kill someone and the town guard are probably going to try to arrest you if you refuse to put your weapon away. There might not be a specific rules penalty for keeping your weapon out, but there are plenty of opportunity penalties for keeping your weapon out (even in a dungeon).

After all, if the roof starts caving in and you have to make a dramatic escape, your weapon being in hand means that if you mess up your jump check (or an ally messes up theirs) then you don't have the free hands necessary to make the check to catch or be caught.

Dagroth

2017-04-19, 09:51 AM

You know, except for not being able to use your hands for anything else, like eating, drinking, or catching a falling baby. Oh, and if you're in town, people are going to think you're trying to kill someone and the town guard are probably going to try to arrest you if you refuse to put your weapon away. There might not be a specific rules penalty for keeping your weapon out, but there are plenty of opportunity penalties for keeping your weapon out (even in a dungeon).

After all, if the roof starts caving in and you have to make a dramatic escape, your weapon being in hand means that if you mess up your jump check (or an ally messes up theirs) then you don't have the free hands necessary to make the check to catch or be caught.

The only time you need your weapon out is when you think there's going to be a fight... so, when you're in a dungeon or travelling overland.

Eating and Drinking are done during down-time or "off-screen", so don't need to be worried about (unless your table really, really likes RPing minutia). Catching a falling baby? In a dungeon? It's probably a Mimic or Doppleganger... catch it with your sword!

I'm a Murder-Hobo. It's a Valid Lifestyle Choice! You kids these days, with all your fancy "putting away your sword". Why, in my day we ate with swords in both our hands and we liked it! Heck, everyone in every town hated us whether we had weapons in hand or not... and that's the way it should be!

The town guard was going to attack us anyway! So of course we attacked them first! It's simple self-defense!

If you can't make a jump check, you shouldn't even be in a dungeon! Amateurs.

Edit: Besides, everyone knows that having a sword in your hand makes you more aerodynamic!

Zanos

2017-04-19, 10:03 AM

Most do know that, but Quick Draw has other reasons to be taken. If you are within 5 feet, you can do a full attack with Quick Draw instead of just a standard action attack. You also cannot charge as a standard action, so you can only charge and draw a weapon in one round if you have Quick Draw.
Not really applicable to this scenario, but you actually can charge as a standard action: "If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."

Technically it doesn't actually specify action type, making it a tad dysfunctional. Based on that wording you could actually use a move action or no action at all to charge.

You know, except for not being able to use your hands for anything else, like eating, drinking, or catching a falling baby. Oh, and if you're in town, people are going to think you're trying to kill someone and the town guard are probably going to try to arrest you if you refuse to put your weapon away. There might not be a specific rules penalty for keeping your weapon out, but there are plenty of opportunity penalties for keeping your weapon out (even in a dungeon).

After all, if the roof starts caving in and you have to make a dramatic escape, your weapon being in hand means that if you mess up your jump check (or an ally messes up theirs) then you don't have the free hands necessary to make the check to catch or be caught.
Drop it as a free action if you must. At low levels mundane weapons are extremely cheap. A leather cord to tie your sword to is even cheaper. At high levels you can afford a least crystal of return.

DrBloodbathMC

2017-04-19, 11:48 AM

I just learned last night that by RAW characters and monsters being flanked don't lose their Dex to AC, my group has been playing wrong for years.

Flickerdart

2017-04-19, 01:33 PM

All of my fighters weld forks to their sword pommels, so they can eat while being armed.

Dagroth

2017-04-19, 01:53 PM

All of my fighters weld forks to their sword pommels, so they can eat while being armed.

Bah! My fighters use Spoons! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhfuuKiTcYQ&feature=youtu.be

Zanos

2017-04-19, 02:27 PM

All of my fighters weld forks to their sword pommels, so they can eat while being armed.
Trying to eat without sheathing your weapon? You eat Orcus!

Venger

2017-04-19, 02:53 PM

All of my fighters weld forks to their sword pommels, so they can eat while being armed.

Bah! My fighters use Spoons! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhfuuKiTcYQ&feature=youtu.be

Trying to eat without sheathing your weapon? You eat Orcus!

fork?

spoon?

my guy welds a rudisplork to his weapon.

Gildedragon

2017-04-19, 03:14 PM

fork?

spoon?

my guy welds a rudisplork to his weapon.

Pfft. Just stab the food with the sword. If it needs further tearing that's what bite attacks and swallow whole are for

Venger

2017-04-19, 03:26 PM

Pfft. Just stab the food with the sword. If it needs further tearing that's what bite attacks and swallow whole are for

I can't jam 10 rogue levels into all my builds.

ShurikVch

2017-04-19, 04:10 PM

Oh, and if you're in town, people are going to think you're trying to kill someone and the town guard are probably going to try to arrest you if you refuse to put your weapon away.But how will you "put away" a long-hafted weapon?

Sagetim

2017-04-19, 08:38 PM

But how will you "put away" a long-hafted weapon?

By putting the sheath on it.

Particle_Man

2017-04-19, 10:22 PM

I am beginning to see a use for some of the 1st ed AD&D polearms like the fauchard-fork. ;)

daremetoidareyo

2017-04-19, 10:47 PM

I am beginning to see a use for some of the 1st ed AD&D polearms like the fauchard-fork. ;)

Yeah, the fauchard - spoon never really got popular

Malimar

2017-04-19, 10:55 PM

Yeah, the fauchard - spoon never really got popular
The Bohemian Ear-Spoon says hello.

Venger

2017-04-20, 12:11 AM

The Bohemian Ear-Spoon says hello.

what if they serve something besides oriecchette?

Mordaedil

2017-04-20, 01:14 AM

Zombimode

2017-04-20, 03:12 AM

If you are within 5 feet before you are drawing your weapon, you must be fighting in a very tiny room or have bigger problems. Not saying it won't happen, but the circumstances seem rare enough to where I question the value of taking a feat for it, if you aren't doing anything that focuses on using quick draw extensively.

Such things can happen when the situation wasn't a combat scenario from the start. Ie. a talk turning into a fight.

In situations where you are suprised this can also happen (enemies use their suprise action to Standard Action Charge you - you start the combat with no weapon drawn and the enemy in melee range).

Quickdraw also helps when switching between melee and ranged weapons.

Would I take Quickdraw on it's own? Probably not, feat slots are valuable.

But if I have to get it as a feat tax or if I get it for free, it is a very nice thing to have.

Segev

2017-04-20, 09:42 AM

But how will you "put away" a long-hafted weapon?

By putting the sheath on it.

Nonsense! You put away Orcus, of course.

NOhara24

2017-04-20, 12:29 PM

I just learned last night that by RAW characters and monsters being flanked don't lose their Dex to AC, my group has been playing wrong for years.

Wait...what?

>Reads the SRD on flanking
>+2 Bonus to hit instead

Well that's your group and mine, then. This is what happens when someone tells you how to play the game vs learning from the books. The guy who told me that likely learned it from the person who taught him to play and so on...

Rijan_Sai

2017-04-20, 12:36 PM

Wow... haven't heard from the rudisplorkers in a while!

Off hand, Quick Draw is also useful for a Chicken Infested Necrocarnate.
Depending on how your DM rules the "Free Action vs. DM can set a reasonable limit on free actions per round" bit, I came up with a (very rough) estimate of being able to pull out an average of ~2 chickens per round. (~1.5 seconds to pull an item out of a bag, decide if it is a chicken or not, and drop it back into the bag or into a pen set up for this purpose. Chicken Infested does not say that the item intended disappears, just that you get a chicken instead 50% of the time.
At that rate, you can get 60 out in 3 minutes (since harvesting takes 1 minute per creature, and they can be dead no more then 1 hour, this is the most you can do in one sitting.) Have some form of "mass death" on hand (wand of fireball; friendly Great Cleaving BSF; etc.) to take them out, then take an hour of "prep time" to harvest the souls. After level 10, you can up that to 600 chickens in 30 minutes (since the harvest only takes one round at that point.)
This may possibly fall under the topic, too! The essentia harvested lasts 24 hours*, so even if you're not using chicken infested/thrallherd/(insert replenishing soul resource here), stopping to harvest the occasional defeated creature while adventuring should be enough to keep you going for a while!
*This is the important/possibly forgotten part.

Using the numbers from above, you can get the following amounts in 1 hour (the same time a wizard generally takes):
Necrocarnate level :: essentia/hour
1-2 :: 60
3-4 :: 120
5-6 :: 180
7-8 :: 240
9 :: 300
10 :: 3000
11-12 :: 3600
13 :: 4200

druid zook

2017-04-20, 08:14 PM

So, I was reading over Weapon Finesse the other day, and noticed something.

I've been playing D&D for a number of years now... and literally have never once noticed this. Does anyone else have any rules, obvious or obscure, that they just completely missed for a while?

I started 3.5 in 2004, and didn't notice that rule for at least 10 years.

ksbsnowowl

2017-04-21, 01:18 AM

KillianHawkeye just pointed me toward this rule, which lets dragons ignore the rule on retroactive skill points for boosting intelligence:

The rule can be found in the Draconomicon on page 142.

When a dragon's Intelligence score increases due to aging, it gains additional skill points for its new Intelligence score retroactively, in contrast to the standard rules governing character advancement. Each +2 increase in Intelligence gives the character an additional 1 skill point per dragon HD, which translates to a new skill at 1 rank per dragon HD (if it is a class skill) or 1/2 rank per dragon HD (for cross-class skills). The dragon does not get additional skill points for any class levels it possesses, nor does it gain retroactive skill points when its Intelligence increases through other means (such as a headband of intellect or an ability score increase gained as part of character advancement).

Every dragon that I've been building for the last 5+ years has been getting screwed out of 30 - 100 skill points. I'm so happy that this rule was pointed out for me just as my PC's are about to start The Bastion of Broken Souls. It is important that Big Red have the appropriate number of skill points to use in noticing and killing them.

Gildedragon

2017-04-21, 01:26 AM

KillianHawkeye just pointed me toward this rule, which lets dragons ignore the rule on retroactive skill points for boosting intelligence:

The rule can be found in the Draconomicon on page 142.

Every dragon that I've been building for the last 5+ years has been getting screwed out of 30 - 100 skill points. I'm so happy that this rule was pointed out for me just as my PC's are about to start The Bastion of Broken Souls. It is important that Big Red have the appropriate number of skill points to use in noticing and killing them.

Give big red ranks in Handle Humanoid.

Thurbane

2017-04-21, 01:41 AM

Give big red ranks in Handle Humanoid.

Relevant link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)

Venger

2017-04-21, 01:52 AM

definitely something for dwks to keep in mind.

assuming you do just jam april fool's material in your game unironically, remember to make the dragon count as a feline somehow.

Gildedragon

2017-04-21, 02:02 AM

definitely something for dwks to keep in mind.

assuming you do just jam april fool's material in your game unironically, remember to make the dragon count as a feline somehow.
Cite Nesbit's story The Dragon Tamers

Mordaedil

2017-04-21, 02:18 AM

KillianHawkeye just pointed me toward this rule, which lets dragons ignore the rule on retroactive skill points for boosting intelligence:

The rule can be found in the Draconomicon on page 142.

Every dragon that I've been building for the last 5+ years has been getting screwed out of 30 - 100 skill points. I'm so happy that this rule was pointed out for me just as my PC's are about to start The Bastion of Broken Souls. It is important that Big Red have the appropriate number of skill points to use in noticing and killing them.

The rule applies to all creatures, it's just dragons that are kind of unique in their HD increasing over time. The idea is that they aren't like traditional levelups. It's also important to note that for purposes of DM creature building, all skills are considered class skills for racial HD increase.

Sagetim

2017-04-21, 02:23 AM

Relevant link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)

And don't forget to take Healing Chi. With a big enough dragon, you could heal entire villages afflicted with horrible diseases or poisons or what have you in record time!

We Are counting dragons as felines, right?

KillianHawkeye

2017-04-21, 12:15 PM

KillianHawkeye just pointed me toward this rule, which lets dragons ignore the rule on retroactive skill points for boosting intelligence:

The funny thing is that it was actually an earlier post in this thread which reminded me that rule existed.

The rule applies to all creatures, it's just dragons that are kind of unique in their HD increasing over time. The idea is that they aren't like traditional levelups. It's also important to note that for purposes of DM creature building, all skills are considered class skills for racial HD increase.

This is false. No other creatures gets skill points retroactively for Intelligence gains. Even true dragons only get it for the Intelligence they gain from moving to a higher age category; other improvements such as from every 4th Hit Die only increase their number of skill points going forward.

I'm not even sure what that last sentence about class skills is supposed to mean. Monster class skills are fairly well defined, and not every skill a monster has is a class skill for their racial Hit Dice.

Sagetim

2017-04-21, 01:13 PM

The funny thing is that it was actually an earlier post in this thread which reminded me that rule existed.

This is false. No other creatures gets skill points retroactively for Intelligence gains. Even true dragons only get it for the Intelligence they gain from moving to a higher age category; other improvements such as from every 4th Hit Die only increase their number of skill points going forward.

I'm not even sure what that last sentence about class skills is supposed to mean. Monster class skills are fairly well defined, and not every skill a monster has is a class skill for their racial Hit Dice.

Well, there's racial hit dice based class skills and those are pretty well defined in the DMG or Monster Manual as I recall. In addition, Dragons can take player classes. I remember one stat block that had a massively ancient dragon that also had 5 bitty levels of wizard added on from something like early life adventuring. Sure, their wizard casting was utterly eclipsed by their dragon based sorcerer casting, but at some point in that dragon's lifespan it learned itself some wizardry (probably because it's sorcery hadn't yet kicked in).

So, I would assume it's talking about character class levels as opposed to dragon hit dice. Translating to something like:
1) Dragons get Dragon Hit Dice for aging, and get free ability score increases as they move up in age categories. When their Int goes up from these, they get retroactive skill points for their Dragon Hit Dice.
2) Dragon Hit Dice have their own class skills, and the retroactive skill points must be spent with respect to those.
3) Dragons who get Int increases from other sources (be it wishes, fishes or leveling up) they do Not get retroactive skill points for those class levels, Nor for their Dragon Hit Dice.

Rizban

2017-04-21, 02:47 PM

The rule applies to all creatures, it's just dragons that are kind of unique in their HD increasing over time. The idea is that they aren't like traditional levelups.Retroactive skill points is not the standard rule. Dragons get it special because of the Draconomicon. It's nice to see dragons get something special.

Player's Handbook page 10, relevant text, emphasis mine,
For example, when Mialee becomes a 4th-level wizard, she decides to increase her Intelligence score to 16.
... it increases the number of skill points she gets per level from 4 to 5.
... She does not retroactively get additional points for her previous levels.

It's also important to note that for purposes of DM creature building, all skills are considered class skills for racial HD increase.Also incorrect. Only listed skills are class skills for monster HD.

1) Dragons get Dragon Hit Dice for aging, and get free ability score increases as they move up in age categories. When their Int goes up from these, they get retroactive skill points for their Dragon Hit Dice.
2) Dragon Hit Dice have their own class skills, and the retroactive skill points must be spent with respect to those.
3) Dragons who get Int increases from other sources (be it wishes, fishes or leveling up) they do Not get retroactive skill points for those class levels, Nor for their Dragon Hit Dice.Racial Hit Dice do not give +1 ability score adjustments for hitting a multiple of 4. Only character class levels do that. However, when calculating whether you gain the +1 from a class level, you do count RHD to see if the total is a multiple of 4.

Dragon retroactive skill points apply only to Dragon RHD, not to class levels. They do get retroactive skill points if their Int increases due to gaining a class level, but the retroactive skill points still only apply to Draagon RHD. A Dragon with 6 RHD and 2 class levels gains a +1 to an ability, if this is applied to Int and increases the modifier, he'd gain 6 retroactive skill points from his RHD that apply to his dragon class skills in addition to the normal class skills for that level. Misread the rule. Retroactive skill points are only added when advancing age categories, but Int increases from other sources should still stack at the point when retroactive points are calculated due to being based on its new Int score.

Petrukio

2017-04-21, 03:05 PM

Retroactive skill points is not the standard rule.

The poster may be confusing it with Pathfinder, where this is, indeed, the standard rules. Increase intelligence, gain extra retroactive skill points. This only applies to actual gained Intelligence, though, not anything you get that boosts Intelligence like the Headband of Vast Intelligence.

Segev

2017-04-21, 03:06 PM

The poster may be confusing it with Pathfinder, where this is, indeed, the standard rules. Increase intelligence, gain extra retroactive skill points. This only applies to actual gained Intelligence, though, not anything you get that boosts Intelligence like the Headband of Vast Intelligence.

Though such headbands each come with a skill that they grant you phantom ranks in equal to your level as long as you wear it.

Rizban

2017-04-21, 03:18 PM

The poster may be confusing it with Pathfinder, where this is, indeed, the standard rules. Increase intelligence, gain extra retroactive skill points. This only applies to actual gained Intelligence, though, not anything you get that boosts Intelligence like the Headband of Vast Intelligence.True, but Draconomicon is 3.5, not PF. So, you have to take the rule in the context of the system it's from. :smalltongue:

Sagetim

2017-04-21, 03:58 PM

*snip*

Racial Hit Dice do not give +1 ability score adjustments for hitting a multiple of 4. Only character class levels do that. However, when calculating whether you gain the +1 from a class level, you do count RHD to see if the total is a multiple of 4.

*snip*

Thank you for making that point, to amend my list then:
1) Dragons get Dragon Hit Dice for aging, and get free ability score increases as they move up in age categories. When their Int goes up from these, they get retroactive skill points for their Dragon Hit Dice.
2) Dragon Hit Dice have their own class skills, and the retroactive skill points must be spent with respect to those.
3) Dragons who get Int increases from other sources (be it wishes, fishes or leveling up) they do Not get retroactive skill points for those class levels.
4) Racial Hit Dice on their own do not give an ability score increase per 4 levels. If the character or creature in question has class levels, Then Racial Hit dice are counted with class levels to gain Ability Score Increases on a 1 per 4 basis.
5) If ability score increases are spent on intelligence, even if they are from a majority of Dragon Hit Dice, they do not provide Retroactive Skill Points. The only thing that gives Retroactive Skill points are Int increases from Dragon Age Category Advancement and they only provide them to Dragon Hit Dice.

yeah?