make the Mystic Theurge a viable choice

[etrpgb]

Forget about early entrance tricks, if the Requirements are changed to:



Requirements
Skills
Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks.

Spells
Able to cast divine spells and arcane spells.
Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells or 2nd-level arcane spells.


And also add somewhere


Special
the +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class must apply to different classes.


Would make the class interesting, without being under or over powered. For example a Shugenja 11/Sorcerer 19 or Cleric 11/Wizard 19 can be a bit more versatile than the pure class, but definitely not broken*. And without the need of strange shenanigans.

What do you think, does it make sense?


*not more broken than Sorcerer 20 or Wizard 20 that's it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's better than a regular Mystic Theurge, to be sure. Essentially, it's free early entry, and it does target an important early-game problem for theurges: it's not that far behind in casting. Still, I find it slightly dissatisfying, because the class still has no features. It would be better to add a class feature like: "Any spell that you know and can cast on both your arcane and divine side gets + MT level to CL and both ability modifiers to the DC", and similar upgrades that make lower-level spells more viable.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Simple and effective. I like it. As ExLibrisMortis points out, it's still a boring PrC, but it's much more functional with your method.

[Mr Adventurer]

How about a closer fusion of abilities?

Something that allows you access to another class' spell list, cast in the same paradigm, but using your own spell slots?

Instead of +1 casting level for two classes, it would be +1 class features level for one class, plus the extra spell list.

[Jay R]

It's not under-powered. It's under-interesting.

Stop trying to add mere power and try to come up with unique or interesting things to do with it.

[Troacctid]

It's not under-powered. It's under-interesting.

Stop trying to add mere power and try to come up with unique or interesting things to do with it.

Agreed.

My fix for the class is in my sig. I chose to go in the direction of opening the class up to unlimited options,, making it more generalized and less wizard/cleric-specific.

[Necroticplague]

Eh. It's a decent boost in power, but power was never really MT's problem, due to the inherint power of spellcasters (even a caster a bit behind is still leagues above anyone else). The problem is that it's incredibly boring, and has no class features of it's own.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Mystic Theurge is viable and strong thanks to Illumian. As was said, there problem is its a pile of power and nothing fun. Compare it to Ultimate Magus that can be manipulated to give highly favorable results and also grants you class features that make the class feel distinct.

What Mystic Theurge wants are some class features that works well with its combining arcane and divine theme without being too strong. Consider also giving them fun things to do with their obscene number of low level spells or turn their downside of having two casting stats into an advantage in some situations.

[Catarang]

It's better than a regular Mystic Theurge, to be sure. Essentially, it's free early entry, and it does target an important early-game problem for Theurges: it's not that far behind in casting. Still, I find it slightly dissatisfying, because the class still has no features. It would be better to add a class feature like: "Any spell that you know and can cast on both your arcane and divine side gets + MT level to CL and both ability modifiers to the DC", and similar upgrades that make lower-level spells more viable.

These suggestions are very good, though I personally believe that the class shouldn't be about minimizing the lack of versatility in a prepared caster, but rather more about increasing the versatility of a spontaneous caster. The Mystic Theurge should be both about doubling down on and mitigating portions of the trade that all sorcerers and sorcerer-like classes face: spell levels and spells known for more spells per day. The Mystic Theurge should both provide the spontaneous caster with more spells per day by drawing from two spell lists, and lose you some more spell levels (though not caster level). Class features should revolve around making it easier to have any given spell around at any given time, so Mystic Theurges should be able to burn resources to get higher level spells, and make metamagic easier (but only slightly, too much of this leads to a broken class. We don't wanna go the route of divine metamagic). For reference and the purpose of debate, here is some homebrew a friend and I wrote up for his campaign when we ran into a similar disdain for the original class.



Hit dice: 1d4

Requirements:

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana) 7 Ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 7 ranks

Feats:
The character seeking entry into the Mystic Theurge Class must have the Versatile Spellcaster feat.

Spells:
A character seeking entry into the Mystic Theurge Class must have the ability to spontaneously cast first level arcane spells and spontaneously cast first level divine spells.

Class Skills:
The Mystic Theurge’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at Each Level:
2 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Mystic Theurges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Class Features:
All of the following are features of the Mystic Theurge prestige class.

Spells per Day:
When a new Mystic Theurge level is gained, except for at fourth, 7th and 9th level, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one spontaneous arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one spontaneous divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of Mystic Theurge to the level of whatever other spontaneous arcane spellcasting class and spontaneous divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one spontaneous arcane spellcasting class or more than one spontaneous divine spellcasting class before he became a Mystic Theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of Mystic Theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day, spells known, and caster level.

Multi-Paradigm Spellcasting:
A Mystic Theurge knows how to approach a spell from multiple angles through his diverse array of casting backgrounds. The Mystic Theurge may use his higher spellcasting ability modifier when determining bonus spells and spell DC’s.

Greater Versatile Spellcasting:
When using the Versatile Spellcasting feat to sacrifice spell slots for higher spell slots, the Mystic Theurge may sacrifice slots from any spontaneous spellcasting class known to him when sacrificing slots for Divine Battery, Versatile Spellcasting or Supreme Versatile Spellcasting. All spell slot sacrifices, whether when using Greater Versatile Spellcasting, Divine Battery, Versatile Spellcasting or Supreme Versatile Spellcasting, do not modify the time taken to cast a spell and can be used in any combination that does not exceed the parameters set by these abilities. For example, a Mystic Theurge when using Divine Battery and

Slot Exchange:
At second level and every two levels there after (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th), the Mystic Theurge may exchange one known spell per spell level known from any spell list he has access to to any other spell list he can access. The Theurge can only do this once per spell level, meaning that if he moved a second level spell known from an arcane list to a divine list, he could not then move a second level divine spell known to an arcane spell known during the same Mystic Threuge level. For example: a Sorcerer 3/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 4 would have access to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level Sorcerer spells and the 1st and 2nd Favored Soul spells. He could move a 1st level Sorcerer spell known to a 1st level Favored soul spell or vice versa, and a 2nd level Favored Soul spell known to a 2nd level Sorcerer spell or vice versa, totaling in two moves total and one per spell level. However, when he gets around to switching third level spells known, he could only exchange a third level spell known from the Sorcerer list with one from the Favored Soul list since he has no known 3rd level Favored Soul spells to exchange.

Mixed Soulspring:
At second level and every two levels after (4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th) the Mystic Theurge gains a +1 to one Spontaneous Arcane classes caster level and one Spontaneous Divine classes caster level. This is in addition to any caster level bonuses granted from the Spells Per Day feature.

Variable Metamagic:
At third level, the Mystic Theurge begins to unlock the true scope of magic. The Mystic Theurge now chooses Metamagic as he does spells, using his Mystic Theurge level to prepare Metamagic Feats at the beginning of every day. Metamagic feats cost a Mystic Theurge level per spell level increase to prepare. The Mystic Theurge can purchase any Metamagic Feat this way that does not have an alignment prerequisite that he does not meet. If a Metamagic feat has another Metamagic feat as a prerequisite, that required feat must be purchased or already taken by the character before he can take the original Metamagic feat. Ignore all other requirements for Metamagic feats in regards to this ability. Metamagic still costs spell levels to apply.

Twin Pillar Casting:
At fourth level and again at 8th level, the Mystic Theurge gains a spell slot per spell level known on her lowest spell level list. These spell slots can be used to cast spells on any spell list known to the caster at the appropriate spell level. These spell slots count for use with Versatile Spellcaster, Greater Versatile Spellcaster, and Supreme Versatile Spellcaster.

Supreme Versatile Spellcaster:
At sixth level, the Mystic Theurge has yet again improved his resourcefulness. He can now sacrifice three spell slots of the same spell level to cast a spell two spell levels above the sacrificed spell slots’ level. And in addition to being able to choose to burn two spells of the same level to cast a spell of a single higher level, the Theurge may instead choose to loose two slots with only a difference of 1 spell level to cast a spell one level higher than the highest slot being lost this way. For example, if a Theurge wanted to cast a 4th level slot, the Theurge can lose three second level slots, one third and one second level slots, two third level slots or one 4th level slot.

Divine Battery:
A Mystic Theurge who has reached the pinnacle of the class has learned to channel his energies more efficiently, and to greater effect. At tenth level the Mystic Theurge adds their highest ability modifier that governs bonus spells to their Mystic Theurge levels to determine Metamagic purchased per day with Variable Metamagic. The Theurge can now sacrifice spell slots of two below the original level of a spell being modified with Metamagic, or higher, to remove two levels of Metamagic cost. This can only be done once per spell cast.




Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Class Features
Spells per Day


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Multi-Paradigm Spellcasting, Greater Versatile Spellcaster
+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing spontaneous divine spellcasting class


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Slot Exchange, Mixed Soulspring
+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing spontaneous divine spellcasting class


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Variable Metamagic
+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing spontaneous divine spellcasting class


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Slot Exchange, Mixed Soulspring, Twin Pillar Casting 1



5th
+2
+1
+1
+4

+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing spontaneous divine spellcasting class


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Slot Exchange, Mixed Soulspring, Supreme Versatile Spellcaster
+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing spontaneous divine spellcasting class


7th
+3
+2
+2
+5




8th
+4
+2
+2
+6
Slot Exchange, Mixed Soulspring, Twin Pillar Casting 2
+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing spontaneous divine spellcasting class


9th
+4
+3
+3
+6

+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class/
+1 level of existing spontaneous divine spellcasting class


10th
+5
+3
+3
+7
Slot Exchange, Mixed Soulspring, Divine Battery





And here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?119197-A-Spontaneous-Not-Sucky-Mystic-Theurge-The-Chosen-Sorcerer&p=6569137) is another thread that I saw a while ago that did something similar. Between my friend's and my route, and this one you should be able to make your own.

[Coidzor]

Something that allows you access to another class' spell list, cast in the same paradigm, but using your own spell slots?

If you want access to another class's spell list, there's always Rainbow Servant, either to use as-is or to take as inspiration for homebrewing purposes.

[Necroticplague]

What Mystic Theurge wants are some class features that works well with its combining arcane and divine theme without being too strong. Consider also giving them fun things to do with their obscene number of low level spells or turn their downside of having two casting stats into an advantage in some situations.

MT don't inherently have two casting stats. Sorcerer/Divine Soul, Wizard/Archivist, creative combinations of classes allowed with Southern Magician (sorcerer/bard, cleric/druid).......

[Catarang]

MT don't inherently have two casting stats. Sorcerer/Divine Soul, Wizard/Archivist, creative combinations of classes allowed with Southern Magician (sorcerer/bard, cleric/druid).......

The combos of Sorcerer/Favored Soul and Wizard/Archivist only either share bonus spells or spell DC's respectively. And a class feature that merges casting stats would make more combinations viable

[barakaka]

Bro, just use the PrC the way it was meant to be used... as part of a Noctumancer Build! Mystic Theurge is specifically called out in Tome of Magic to work for Shadowcaster. You can even do early entry on the Wizard side of it if you want.

And if you're afraid of playing an early level Shadowcaster (founded fears for sure), then just use the Creeping Darkness option in Tome of Magic to swap your Wizard levels to Shadowcaster levels as you go.

[AnachroNinja]

I've always thought mystic theurge would work better as a base class myself.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I always imagined it like the red mage from Final Fantasy (possibly because of the red caster in the picture) since, by design, you get a lot of low level spells from multiple lists but never hit the really high points.

[Kelb_Panthera]

MT was never non-viable.

This is how viable it is; if you enter as an adept/ magewright (ECS) with early entry methods you can -still- do just fine in a party with the typical mundane crowd (until level 13 anyway).

The problem is, as others have said innumerable times, that it's kinda dull mechanically. RP wise, it's kinda neat; particularly if you enter with classes that are more interesting than the standard pairings; but otherwise its just nothing to write home about. Even its cousin the arcane hierophant has -some- features to make it more than the sum of its parts.

Unless you give it features, nothing you can do it will make it more attractive (though I'd sugget extending it to a 14-17 level class would help).