Way to find out HD of creature?

[NapazTrix]

Is there anyway in-game / in-character to find out the HD of a creature without looking at it's stats in the book/webpage?

Currently running a pathfinder game, using FFD20 (Final Fantasy) and it has a Tamer Archetype of Beast-master where they can capture monsters and call them into battle.
It relies on the Tamer's level against the HD of the creature, they can't keep over double their level in HD of monsters or summon more then 1/2 their level in HD of monsters.

[Vaz]

Sense Motive allows you to estimate their CR, but I'm not sure if that is helpful (Sense Motive v Bluff, if successful can estimate based on CR, limited to within 4 CR up or down on your HD for accuracy).

As HD is really a "meta" concept, it may be worth asking your DM for a way to learn it.

As a Final Fantasy player of the video games, there was the "Scan" White Magic ability in Final Fantasy X at least, and the Sensor ability on Weapons also, which granted you the ability to look at opponents stats like health, and weakness/resistances. Does Final Fantasy D20 have that?

An alternative is pumping your Knowledge check for the relevant creature. This is DM dependent, but talking to your DM that you are in particular interested in finding out the HD of something (perhaps via a private note after some time practising and training it) including it within your backstory should give you a more rcognisable based background to learn the things relvant to your mechanics.

[denthor]

1st level cleric spell death watch gives you foul site that gives hp status.

[Darrin]

There's a 1st level druid spell in Masters of the Wild called power sight that can tell you a creature's HD.

[Inevitability]

Kill it and try to reanimate it as a skeleton while increasing the amount of black onyx used in the attempt in 25 GP-increments.

I'm sorry, did you want practical suggestions? :smalltongue:

[Bronk]

You can figure out the HD of a creature using the appropriate knowledge check as well.


In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

[Ualaa]

Could you cut the monster down, and count how many layers it has outwards from the spine?
Or is that only Treants?

[Zombimode]

Kill it and try to reanimate it as a skeleton while increasing the amount of black onyx used in the attempt in 25 GP-increments.

Thats actually a good Point. It seems to me that whenever a character has to take an Action that is dependent on the HD of a creature, the character just "knows" what to do.
When using Animate Dead the caster knows how much Onyx it will take for the spell to work.

[NapazTrix]

Looks like a Knowledge Roll will be the way of things, since those spells aren't in the system. HP doesn't always identify HD considering Con and Toughness etc.

Thanks for the replies!

[Crake]

As HD is really a "meta" concept, it may be worth asking your DM for a way to learn it.

You say this, yet there are several measurable ways to gauge HD via in game means. The number of negative levels they can sustain before dying, the value require of various material components necessary to cast spells at them.

I believe soul binding, which requires a gem worth 1000gp per HD of the target, says "While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice."

So... I guess the answer is "research".

[Diovid]

Urban Savant's Urban Savvy (Weaknesses) ability explicitly allows for finding out a target's HD:

At 4th level, you can draw upon your urban knowledge to learn a foe's weakness in combat. Against humanoids, a successful Knowledge check reveals the target's Hit Dice, damage reduction (including the means to overcome it, if any), and saving throws. Against nonhumanoids, it imparts all of the above information plus any special weaknesses the foe might have. Again, the player must roleplay any information he wishes his character to impart within the game.

[Jormengand]

You can figure out the HD of a creature using the appropriate knowledge check as well.

You can also attempt this with truespeak, which has the advantage that it has Try Again: Yes where knowledge doesn't.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Looks like a Knowledge Roll will be the way of things, since those spells aren't in the system. HP doesn't always identify HD considering Con and Toughness etc.

Thanks for the replies!

What about this:


There's a 1st level druid spell in Masters of the Wild called power sight that can tell you a creature's HD.

If you're not a druid, perhaps the GM will let you have a set of goggles or something crafted to grant the effect? Push comes shove, there's always UMD and a wand.

[Ualaa]

I personally don't like metagame concepts, within the game.

A character knows that one fighter is very experienced through surviving many battles against hard odds, while another is a raw recruit... not that one is level 12 and the other is a Warrior 1.

But that's my choice or preference, and your game may be different.



The pathfinder slayer has a talent to know the current hit points of a creature.

I would go with Healthy, Slightly Wounded, Wounded, Badly Wounded, Almost Dead, and Dead, to give a decent amount of information for the talent to be worthwhile (100%, 80%, 60%, 40%, 20%, 0% health), while taking a metagame concept out of the game.

[Zaq]

I personally don't like metagame concepts, within the game.

A character knows that one fighter is very experienced through surviving many battles against hard odds, while another is a raw recruit... not that one is level 12 and the other is a Warrior 1.

But that's my choice or preference, and your game may be different.



The pathfinder slayer has a talent to know the current hit points of a creature.

I would go with Healthy, Slightly Wounded, Wounded, Badly Wounded, Almost Dead, and Dead, to give a decent amount of information for the talent to be worthwhile (100%, 80%, 60%, 40%, 20%, 0% health), while taking a metagame concept out of the game.

That's all well and good until you have an ability that's based off of the target's HD, which is the specific context that the OP posited. You don't need to announce the HD of every critter in the world to every character in the world, but when you're allowing a character who has a core mechanic that relies on having some awareness of HD, trying to pretend that HD is some unknowable mystery will likely just cause headaches.

Basically, what this boils down to is how much effort the GM/player collectively agree to spend at the table, along with what, if any, build/game resources the GM wants the player to have to expend for the privilege. (Again, I'm talking about the specific context of the OP's Tamer class who's going to be interacting with critter HD a lot, both of hostile critters and of tamed critters.) Even if the GM never tells the player what the HD of a given creature is, the player's going to eventually get an idea just based on trial and error ("I didn't affect it when I rolled an 8, but I did affect it when I rolled an 11, so that narrows down its possible HD to this specific range . . ."). Which is fine so far as it goes, but if it's going to happen all the time, eventually the façade is going to take longer than anyone cares to spend. Speaking from the perspective of someone who's played several Truenamers (where the CR of an enemy is a critical part of the Truespeak DC formula), there's going to come a point where the GM and the player collectively agree (explicitly or implicitly) that it's smoother to just give the player some idea of what they're working with. And if this Tamer class is going to be keeping critters around (and their critter pool is explicitly linked to HD), then there isn't going to be a very functional way to hide that from the player long-term.

Now, depending on the specifics, it might be appropriate to require the player to expend actions, build resources, or both to get the info they need, but one way or another, the player does need to get that info. The class doesn't sound playable without it.

[Flickerdart]

Oriental Adventures provides a use for Sense Motive - you can size up an opponent to establish their BAB and ranks in Iaijutsu Focus. Knowing their BAB sets pretty hard limits on what their level could be, since a character with 20 BAB can have no fewer than 20 HD, and is likely to have no more than 40 HD.

[Darrin]

Oriental Adventures provides a use for Sense Motive - you can size up an opponent to establish their BAB and ranks in Iaijutsu Focus. Knowing their BAB sets pretty hard limits on what their level could be, since a character with 20 BAB can have no fewer than 20 HD, and is likely to have no more than 40 HD.

Identifying the creature type (Knowledge check?) can tell you whether the creature has full BAB or 3/4 BAB. So between that and Sense Motive, that should get you pretty close to the creature's HD.

[daremetoidareyo]

edited before the mods beset the thread.

Combat Intuition
(Complete Adventurer, p. 106)

[Fighter Bonus Feat]


Benefit
As a free action, you can use Sense Motive to assess the challenge presented by a single opponent in relationship to your own level/Hit Dice (see the assess opponent option under the Sense Motive skill, page 102). You gain a +4 bonus on such checks and narrow the result to a single category.

[zergling.exe]

Combat Intuition
(Complete Adventurer, p. 106)

Posting the whole rules text of something not in the OGL is definitely not kosher.

[Mordaedil]

I assume you can use something like Knowledge (Nobility & royalty) to identify the HD of particularly famous people, Knowledge (Local) to identify the HD of the town blacksmith, Knowledge (religion) to identify the HD of deities and people involved in religion, Knowledge (Planar) to identify the HD of outsiders, Knowledge (Nature) to identify the HD of animals and plants or other natural beasts and Knowledge (Dungeoneering) to identify the HD of dungeon dwelling monsters not found much in the wilds.

And Knowledge (Arcana) to identify owlbears.

[Flickerdart]

I assume you can use something like Knowledge (Nobility & royalty) to identify the HD of particularly famous people, Knowledge (Local) to identify the HD of the town blacksmith, Knowledge (religion) to identify the HD of deities and people involved in religion, Knowledge (Planar) to identify the HD of outsiders, Knowledge (Nature) to identify the HD of animals and plants or other natural beasts and Knowledge (Dungeoneering) to identify the HD of dungeon dwelling monsters not found much in the wilds.

And Knowledge (Arcana) to identify owlbears.
Why would you assume any of those things? Knowledge doesn't say it lets you identify HD, and you use Local for humanoids regardless of occupation.

[Mordaedil]

Why would you assume any of those things? Knowledge doesn't say it lets you identify HD, and you use Local for humanoids regardless of occupation.

Because of these quotes?


You can figure out the HD of a creature using the appropriate knowledge check as well.


You can also attempt this with truespeak, which has the advantage that it has Try Again: Yes where knowledge doesn't.

[Telonius]

Is there anyway in-game / in-character to find out the HD of a creature without looking at it's stats in the book/webpage?

Currently running a pathfinder game, using FFD20 (Final Fantasy) and it has a Tamer Archetype of Beast-master where they can capture monsters and call them into battle.
It relies on the Tamer's level against the HD of the creature, they can't keep over double their level in HD of monsters or summon more then 1/2 their level in HD of monsters.

Shouldn't that information be in your Pokedex? :smallbiggrin:

[NapazTrix]

Wow, still getting replies on this, some good, others comedic XD.

Thank you all, but we have decided to use the Knowledge rules in pathfinder for 10+CR for finding their HD. This will prove a problem later on since only Knowledge Nature has a point in it, but with a level should be able to get them all.

It doesn't say we can find HD, but HD is such a Meta-term so I wouldn't expect them to put that in, but it is the only way we can do that is close enough to roleplay. We both agree that putting HD into class abilties isn't a good thing, and too meta-gamey, but it's been done and we've agreed on a way around it.

Can't use the spells from Druid, since we are using the FFD20 system for Classes and spells. The only similar ability is from Blue Mages who have Sensor and Libra to find HP/MP and weaknesses.
Combat Intuition is from DnD, this is Pathfinder/FFD20(No DnD stuff).

[Ywvbevlin]

Ask someone else to tell you the HD