Pathfinder [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent [Archive]

Forrestfire

2016-12-19, 05:02 PM

http://i.imgur.com/qsIByD5.png

Hi! My name is Forrest Heck, or forrestfire, and you might know me as someone who works for Dreamscarred Press and has run playtests here on GitP in the past. Right now, in addition to the stuff I'm doing with DSP, I've started my own 3pp Pathfinder company where I'm working with some friends and fellow writers to do slightly different ideas that might not fit into DSP's existing pile of material. In particular, though, our flagship right now is a class called the Avowed, which I guess would be something between...

A class inspired by the warlock from D&D, like many other 3pps have done (it's almost like a rite of passage for some, up there with "making a fighter fix" :smallwink:).
A love letter to the warlocks of every edition, along with an expansion of psychic magic's themes and fluff.
A highly variable class built with the goal of having a set of balanced at-will abilities to choose from, and many different ways to play it based on the choices you make when creating your character.
A new subsystem that can be expanded through archetypes, prestige classes, and variant rules.

In any case, the class and its subsystem can be found at this link here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg), which will take you to a PDF hosted on Google Drive. Instead of doing things primarily in Google Docs files, FFS goes an extra mile to provide fully-laid-out PDFs with bookmarks, chapters, and color art, for ease of reading and use in games. Sometimes we'll be doing Google Docs if something gets the PDFs delayed, but for the time being, the layouts are just as fun for me to assemble as the project itself. You can also find, in this Google Drive folder (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3T3lfQThtVDRkMU0), all of Forrestfire Studios' currently-public playtests and any free PDFs or files we've uploaded for people to use. The links to each of the files in the folder will remain the same, thanks to being able to just upload new versions.

We've been running this playtest for a little while, though it wasn't in full beta form yet. This thread on the paizo boards (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2twzb&page=last?Forrestfire-Studios-A-new-company-a-unique) is where it's been happening thus far, so if you want to go back and see the past changelogs and what's new, you can find it there. We didn't want to post it up on GitP until we were sure we were allowed to, but now we are, so here we go.

ANYWAY! In the above-linked PDF you'll find the following:

The avowed class itself, a new base class that uses the rules systems introduced in the book.
A large list of pacts, which are a "subpath" of the class you choose at 1. A given avowed's pact will determine a lot of their class features, and helps enable varying playstyles based on your choice.
A chapter of the at-will abilities the avowed can get, called clauses. Those familiar with the source material will find this section familiar; we've got the clauses divided into four grades (least, lesser, greater, and final), with 25 of each grade in the PDF. In addition, we have 14 pulse shapes, which are something like blast shapes, but running on a different system that's designed to allow an avowed to branch out or focus on particular shapes as they like, regardless of what clauses they're picking.
A chapter of feats, including 16 new feats (not all of which are avowed-only), as well as notes on how the avowed interacts with a couple specific feats, and reprintings of every feat referenced in the book.
A single archetype, called the Tinker, several class feature substutions (think like ACFs), and a magic item for weapon-using avowed.
An appendix, with reprintings of all the non-core spells referenced in the book, some notes about item and rules interactions, and alternate favored class bonuses for 90 races, spread across 1pp Pathfinder and DSP's published races.
And finally, an extra section with a campaign variant for buying, selling, and using souls. This section is a preview of a later project FFS will be doing, and includes new feats, magic items, plot hooks, and more.

EDIT: We now also have a second playtest running, as the Avowed 1 project moves towards release. This link will take you to the Google doc for The Avowed: Heart and Soul (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLI gc), which includes two new expansive archetypes for the avowed, new pacts, subpacts, and many new feats. We also included a new race, new traits, and more.

If you're still with me at the end of this wall of text, I hope you enjoy our work, and I'd love your feedback if you have any. This project has been a long time in the writing, and it's great to have it fully ready for eyes. :smallbiggrin:

GrayDeath

2016-12-19, 05:59 PM

Well, as an old Warlock Player, I cans ay that this looks interesting.

Only skimmed it for now, but I`ll give it a deeper read.

Thank you

Taveena

2016-12-19, 06:50 PM

Hey, Forrest's co-author here. As a longtime friend of hers, I kind of latched onto her hard when I found out she'd be doing this, and I do not regret it one bit. This project has been a massive labor of love - Warlock has always been my favorite third edition class - and I truly hope that you guys enjoy reading and playing it as much as we enjoyed writing it. We've done our absolute best to make sure that everything you loved about the old Warlock is still shining through here, even with our changes. Of course, we're only human (hey, that bonus feat really helps...). so any feedback about your playstyle that we missed is greatly appreciated, in addition to the normal 'balance' and 'readability' concerns. But who really cares about that? (We do. We have spreadsheets. Forrest's an addict.)

meemaas

2016-12-19, 06:57 PM

I'd be wondering since she was consistently referring to it as We, despite the assumption that she was working alone. That said, I love this class. I'm currently playtesting it in one of my home games, an Elemental Pact (Fire) Avowed, as our parties ranged damage dealer, and unlike my first character with this group (a Fire specialized Kineticist) my party is not deathly afraid of her. The Weatherproofing Clause is beautiful and one of my favorites, although I never actually told my party that I used it on them until halfway through my second session with her, for the shock value of dropping an Aether Blast in the middle of melee.

All in all, I believe this is a very worthy improvement on the Warlock, and takes all of the best options from there and makes them available to us in Pathfinder. Looking forward to seeing Avowed 2 when it comes down the chute. I've already started planning characters for the Self Pact Avowed, and for the Tinker archetype, and I'm sure whatever comes in there will keep more ideas coming.

Thealtruistorc

2016-12-19, 10:04 PM

Well, this is a great little addition. I can see it being quite useful as well as fun to play. However, there is one thing I would like to see added.

It would be awesome to see the return of some of the swift-action and free-action debuffs in the vein of the 4e Warlock (which was the one I always thought was the coolest). The ability to curse opponents and level easy debuffs on them is something I see as an iconic part of the class, and I would love to see this somehow represented (it also fits quite well with the occult theme). Maybe the addition of some more complex "curse shapes" in the style of blast shapes could result in a fun build. Perhaps a claiming system akin to the Harbinger could be a fun introduction.

MilleniaAntares

2016-12-20, 02:56 AM

I like what there is so far!

When I get a chance, I'll comb through it for typoes, but meanwhile...

If I were to use, say, a wand of Fireball with Aether Spark, and an ally affected by my Weatherproofing clause is within the fireball's blast... does my ally take damage? Or are they made immune?

Also, if magic-psionic transparency is applied to the Tinker archetype (staves = dorjes)... do you think the third selection would become too strong thanks to greater scaling?

I'm not sure if it needs to be stated, but there are no general rules for dismissing a clause's effects (nor for spell-like abilities in general). They would probably be useful for clauses that may become inconvenient, such as Airspace Control.

Cloaked in Shadow's momentary strength and dexterity penalties seem to be a bit strange, and could perhaps overcomplicate matters in certain situations. What if a creature had 4 or less strength and dexterity? Does it make sense for the penalty to apply when they're, say, trying to perform acrobatics, and you're just sitting there watching them from stealth/invisibility? Depending on your intent for this clause, better wording would be "you gain a +2 bonus to your attack rolls and save DCs against opponents who cannot perceive you", or something like that.

Stained-Glass Mirror is neat, but would it be possible to add an option that allows you to choose whether or not someone is affected by the damage? And perhaps allowing Merciful Pulse to apply to its damage...

Heck, maybe allow Merciful Pulse to also make clause damage be non-lethal?

phlidwsn

2016-12-20, 09:20 AM

Also, if magic-psionic transparency is applied to the Tinker archetype (staves = dorjes)... do you think the third selection would become too strong thanks to greater scaling?

I would think staves would map to psicrowns, not dorjes. Dorjes map to wands.

Edit: Can't spell and didn't notice till I was quoted :(

KillingAScarab

2016-12-20, 09:56 AM

I wasn't expecting to get a character idea on the second page, but that SMB1 reference in the placeholder text made me wonder if a certain visitor to the Mushroom Kingdom got fireballs by making a pact with plant creatures. Firey plant creatures... I think I'm going to remember the name of this publisher. :smallsmile:

meemaas

2016-12-20, 09:57 AM

Check out their other release, the Spellburst Savant, then. It's currently available on Drivethrurpg

Swaoeaeieu

2016-12-20, 10:19 AM

So they dont really get spells or powers? They have their own version of casting stuff if i read it correct. Does it fall under arcane, divine, psionic or some other concept? i know you mention it has a psychic twist but i cant really find it from what i read.

that said it does look very nice. the pacts all give a nice flavour to the class.
Tinker archetype makes a nice Artificer in pathfinder, since i cant find one anywhere.
Since there is a connection with DSP, will there be a archetype that grants maneuvers, or maybe a pact?

i will be bookmarking this for some NPC's im planning. always nice to use good 3pp material to confuse the players :)

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-12-20, 11:47 AM

KillingAScarab

2016-12-20, 11:53 AM

So they dont really get spells or powers? They have their own version of casting stuff if i read it correct. Does it fall under arcane, divine, psionic or some other concept? i know you mention it has a psychic twist but i cant really find it from what i read.I believe that's covered on page 4.

This psychic connection also allows the avowed to use psychic skill unlocks as if he could cast psychic spells (see: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Occult Adventures for more details).

Checking the d20 PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes)...

Psychic magic is a third type of magic that functions differently from arcane and divine magic. The occult classes' spell lists include many new spells allowing them to fully express their mental powers.

Edit: Ninjaxenomorph'd!

GrayDeath

2016-12-20, 12:52 PM

Well, fter a full read I can honestly say that I am REALLY intruiged it so far.

Some Evoc....I mean Clauses seem a bit useless/overwhelmingly powerful (all in the tradition of the old "`Lock"^^) but I like the flair and added versatility a lot.

And I truly love the ElderEvil and Self Pacts.

Swaoeaeieu

2016-12-20, 04:40 PM

It clearly mentions the connection with psychic spellcasters, in that avowed can use the occult skill unlocks.

I believe that's covered on page 4.

Checking the d20 PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes)...

Edit: Ninjaxenomorph'd!

allright i concede XD. turns out i just dont know anything about pathfinder psionics :P
thanks for the pointers

LordOfCain

2016-12-20, 05:19 PM

Wow... I just took the time to look at this a bit... and it looks great! Wonderful job! If my group played Pathfinder, I would definitely use this. But we still play 3.5e and are only comfortable with that so... (Please no Pathfinder is so similar to 3.5e comments, it's called inertia)

My only question is: How much did you have to pay for the art? As an aspiring publisher, if I ever have enough time, I would need art.

SangoProduction

2016-12-20, 08:14 PM

I like it. I like it a lot. I do have concerns about the power of the clauses, in addition to being freely usably all day. But, for a warlock rework, it definitely fits the spirit of the class, and is unarguably a buff in power, and nice, native customization options. It's also a fluff-wise improvement to have specific pacts like 4e did.

Sayt

2016-12-20, 08:40 PM

I think the class and system is really, really neat! I was actually thinking that this was design/mechanics space that I didn' really think was being exploited.

As a whole, I love it, however, there are a few things which niggle me:
Fidn Pact Empowerment: Disquieting Gaze. Demoralizing as a free action is neat, but it kinda needs a times/round limit to stop Soulless Gaze+Any other damnation feat->"I can make the DC, so you are Panicked for an arbitrary amount of time"

Vhaidara

2016-12-20, 10:13 PM

allright i concede XD. turns out i just dont know anything about pathfinder psionics :P
thanks for the pointers

Psychic is not psionics. Psychic magic is a thing that paizo created with Occult Adventures, Psionics was Dreamscarred Press' original flagship product

digiman619

2016-12-20, 10:56 PM

Psychic is not psionics. Psychic magic is a thing that paizo created with Occult Adventures, Psionics was Dreamscarred Press' original flagship product

It's an easy mistake to make, though, as the two terms are generally interchangeable (see the classic psionic class the Psychic Warrior).

Taveena

2016-12-20, 10:56 PM

Some Evoc....I mean Clauses seem a bit useless/overwhelmingly powerful (all in the tradition of the old "`Lock"^^) but I like the flair and added versatility a lot.

This is something we've tried very hard to avoid - are there any in particular that stand out to you?

Fidn Pact Empowerment: Disquieting Gaze. Demoralizing as a free action is neat, but it kinda needs a times/round limit to stop Soulless Gaze+Any other damnation feat->"I can make the DC, so you are Panicked for an arbitrary amount of time"

Yeah, this is something we just caught. Given the obvious thematic connection between Damnation feats and Fiend pact... next release should have it properly nerfed to once per round.

Starbuck_II

2016-12-21, 10:46 AM

Skimming it, I love the Shapes. Wish there was a extra shape feat.
The ability to
1) "Fireball"- Aether Blast
2) "Nuke outward
3) Barrage
4) Chain Lightning- Cascade

Even a Archetype that got more shapes would be cool.

GrayDeath

2016-12-21, 01:33 PM

This is something we've tried very hard to avoid - are there any in particular that stand out to you?

Yeah, this is something we just caught. Given the obvious thematic connection between Damnation feats and Fiend pact... next release should have it properly nerfed to once per round.

Well, that was one, also (at work atm so I cant check) the "Make ones own luck" falls into the problematc "gets redundant quickly" problem.
Not a huge thing, as you can exchange Clauses, but a thing nonetheless.

I will pour over it once home (or once in the holidays at the latest) and post what I think and why. :)

calyst

2016-12-21, 03:10 PM

How would Dusk Pulse's fatigue interact with say Aether Swarm, would that be exhausted after 2 failed saves?

LordOfCain

2016-12-21, 04:16 PM

My only question is: How much did you have to pay for the art? As an aspiring publisher, if I ever have enough time, I would need art.
Just wanted to quote this to make sure it didn't get lost. If you aren't comfortable answering this, that's fine.

Forrestfire

2016-12-21, 04:20 PM

Just wanted to quote this to make sure it didn't get lost. If you aren't comfortable answering this, that's fine.

Oh, sorry. I've been a bit busy and wanted to respond to each person's replies in one fell swoop, but hadn't gotten to it yet. I'll have free time tomorrow to do so, but in the meantime; I have a subscription to Adobe Stock for art; it costs me $30 per month (with a 12-month subscription), and I get 10 images per month (unused ones roll over to the next month). It's a bit of work to sift through all the truly awful stock art, but worth it. :smallsmile:

LordOfCain

2016-12-21, 04:26 PM

Oh, sorry. I've been a bit busy and wanted to respond to each person's replies in one fell swoop, but hadn't gotten to it yet. I'll have free time tomorrow to do so, but in the meantime; I have a subscription to Adobe Stock for art; it costs me $30 per month (with a 12-month subscription), and I get 10 images per month (unused ones roll over to the next month). It's a bit of work to sift through all the truly awful stock art, but worth it. :smallsmile:
Thanks, that's really useful because the art you have looks great to me and... I kinda have a lotta spare time if I want to go this route.

Taveena

2016-12-21, 11:20 PM

Well, that was one, also (at work atm so I cant check) the "Make ones own luck" falls into the problematc "gets redundant quickly" problem.
Not a huge thing, as you can exchange Clauses, but a thing nonetheless.

I will pour over it once home (or once in the holidays at the latest) and post what I think and why. :)

I'm surprised to hear that - the 3.5e equivalent was considered to be fairly weak at lower levels but very strong later on as your charisma rose. Why causes it to become redundant, in your mind?

MilleniaAntares

2016-12-22, 12:57 AM

I've been thinking about Merciful Pulse... Perhaps it would be better off as a catch-all non-lethal option. That is, it does what it does now, and also makes clause damage non-lethal, and lets the weapon/spell you channel through also be non-lethal (as well as giving the option to go lethal with stuff like saps).

I wound think staves would map to psicrowns, not dorjes. Dorjes map to wands.
Oh right. My mistake!

GrayDeath

2016-12-22, 01:35 PM

I'm surprised to hear that - the 3.5e equivalent was considered to be fairly weak at lower levels but very strong later on as your charisma rose. Why causes it to become redundant, in your mind?

Stack it up to me being really really tired.

I misremembered the old one having an upgrade Invocation to all three saves later on and (wrongly, again) thought it applied here too.

I obey to only go over it all fully after having had a few days free to clear my mind.

One question however: do you plan to add a certain bent to clauses for the Pacts?
Either by giving each pact 2-4 exclusive clauses or (probably better to balance and easier) taking one of each grade that works slightly differently depending on your pact?

That would help making the different pacts even more unique (and build on the greatest improvement your version has so far: more variety).

Foxman778

2016-12-22, 03:59 PM

Does the Aether Pulse have a listed damage type? I know there are ways to change its damage type, but what is the base?

GrayDeath

2016-12-22, 04:04 PM

I assumed it was untyped, like the old `Lockes Blast (while in its unaltered form).....

SangoProduction

2016-12-22, 04:29 PM

It's just raw, magical damage. Not force damage, just damage. At least, from what I can tell.

Foxman778

2016-12-22, 04:59 PM

I assumed it was untyped, like the old `Lockes Blast (while in its unaltered form).....

It's just raw, magical damage. Not force damage, just damage. At least, from what I can tell.

That's what I assume, but is it outright stated or are we just inferring?

SangoProduction

2016-12-22, 05:08 PM

That's what I assume, but is it outright stated or are we just inferring?

Considering the only thing it says it does is "damage", then, as a general rule, it is untyped HP damage. Whether this is intended or not is another question.

Forrestfire

2016-12-22, 06:19 PM

Okay! Got some time and am awake today, so I'm gonna respond to all these posts. Thanks for all your feedback and for taking a look at our work!

Well, this is a great little addition. I can see it being quite useful as well as fun to play. However, there is one thing I would like to see added.

It would be awesome to see the return of some of the swift-action and free-action debuffs in the vein of the 4e Warlock (which was the one I always thought was the coolest). The ability to curse opponents and level easy debuffs on them is something I see as an iconic part of the class, and I would love to see this somehow represented (it also fits quite well with the occult theme). Maybe the addition of some more complex "curse shapes" in the style of blast shapes could result in a fun build. Perhaps a claiming system akin to the Harbinger could be a fun introduction.

We're unlikely to do a lot of swift and free debuffs like the 4e warlock as part of the default class outside of specific pact abilities (they're difficult to balance in 3.x, as opposed to 4e, which was built around it), but your post has given us an idea for a "Warlock's Curse"-style archetype. I'm not sure when it'll drop, but it's now on our list of things to do :smallbiggrin:

I like what there is so far!

When I get a chance, I'll comb through it for typoes, but meanwhile...

If I were to use, say, a wand of Fireball with Aether Spark, and an ally affected by my Weatherproofing clause is within the fireball's blast... does my ally take damage? Or are they made immune?

Also, if magic-psionic transparency is applied to the Tinker archetype (staves = dorjes)... do you think the third selection would become too strong thanks to greater scaling?

I'm not sure if it needs to be stated, but there are no general rules for dismissing a clause's effects (nor for spell-like abilities in general). They would probably be useful for clauses that may become inconvenient, such as Airspace Control.

Cloaked in Shadow's momentary strength and dexterity penalties seem to be a bit strange, and could perhaps overcomplicate matters in certain situations. What if a creature had 4 or less strength and dexterity? Does it make sense for the penalty to apply when they're, say, trying to perform acrobatics, and you're just sitting there watching them from stealth/invisibility? Depending on your intent for this clause, better wording would be "you gain a +2 bonus to your attack rolls and save DCs against opponents who cannot perceive you", or something like that.

Stained-Glass Mirror is neat, but would it be possible to add an option that allows you to choose whether or not someone is affected by the damage? And perhaps allowing Merciful Pulse to apply to its damage...

Heck, maybe allow Merciful Pulse to also make clause damage be non-lethal?

I've been thinking about Merciful Pulse... Perhaps it would be better off as a catch-all non-lethal option. That is, it does what it does now, and also makes clause damage non-lethal, and lets the weapon/spell you channel through also be non-lethal (as well as giving the option to go lethal with stuff like saps).

Weatherproofing should be applying to all the riders and effects of an aether pulse; in the next update it'll be more clear.
Psionics–magic transparency would not apply here at all (there's a specific list of what transparency does, and "wands = dorjes" isn't on it); the Tinker's aether spark works for wands and only wands; not even generic spell trigger items.
We'll be adding a section for dismissing clause effects, since it's come up a bunch of times in our stuff as well XD
Cloaked in Shadow is meant to be a bit weird like that; the implication isn't just that you're hiding there, but that you're sapping their strength with your shadows.
Merciful pulse will be made a catch-all.

So they dont really get spells or powers? They have their own version of casting stuff if i read it correct. Does it fall under arcane, divine, psionic or some other concept? i know you mention it has a psychic twist but i cant really find it from what i read.

that said it does look very nice. the pacts all give a nice flavour to the class.
Tinker archetype makes a nice Artificer in pathfinder, since i cant find one anywhere.
Since there is a connection with DSP, will there be a archetype that grants maneuvers, or maybe a pact?

i will be bookmarking this for some NPC's im planning. always nice to use good 3pp material to confuse the players :)

The avowed doesn't really get spells or powers, no. Clauses are spell-like abilities, but are very similar to psychic spells in flavor and themes. They use Thought components in addition to Verbal components, and we've been trying to push the themes of psychic magic (which is all about connections, between people/thing, people/people, people/concept...) with the core fluff of the avowed. It's not psychic in mechanic, but the goal was to make it psychic in theme.

We may do some stuff for maneuvers, but I can't say for sure. There's actually a post I made in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21440329&postcount=41) about the subject of Path of War, and overall, the avowed is not balanced around the assumption of its existence. I'm glad you like the tinker and pacts, though :smallsmile:

I like it. I like it a lot. I do have concerns about the power of the clauses, in addition to being freely usably all day. But, for a warlock rework, it definitely fits the spirit of the class, and is unarguably a buff in power, and nice, native customization options. It's also a fluff-wise improvement to have specific pacts like 4e did.

I'm glad you like it! Is there any particular clauses you have power level concerns about? We've been trying to be careful about making sure the abilities are balanced for being at-will, which generally means they're a weaker than the top-end effects you might find at a given level, but useful in their own right.

I think the class and system is really, really neat! I was actually thinking that this was design/mechanics space that I didn' really think was being exploited.

As a whole, I love it, however, there are a few things which niggle me:
Fidn Pact Empowerment: Disquieting Gaze. Demoralizing as a free action is neat, but it kinda needs a times/round limit to stop Soulless Gaze+Any other damnation feat->"I can make the DC, so you are Panicked for an arbitrary amount of time"

Yeah, we're going to be nerfing that to 1/round, as Taveena said.

Skimming it, I love the Shapes. Wish there was a extra shape feat.
The ability to
1) "Fireball"- Aether Blast
2) "Nuke outward
3) Barrage
4) Chain Lightning- Cascade

Even a Archetype that got more shapes would be cool.

I'm glad you like the shapes; they've been a lot of fun to write and I'm really happy with they turned out. However, we aren't currently planning on adding a way to get more shapes than you get from levels. With the design of the shapes, the goal was... A sort of "diminishing returns" on them. Picking a shape once gets you access, picking it twice gets you major functionality. The 3rd and 3rd ranks of each shape tend to be "extra" regarding its effect; the 4th is for people who're going all-in on them.

Over 20 levels, you get a total of 12 shape selections, meaning you can max out three of them, or do a mix of selections. Personally, I've found myself going 2-3 ranks into my specialty before branching out, in the characters I've been using in our playtest games. The goal is to allow people to choose to specialize, or to branch out, without making one option too much better than the other. So we're probably not going to add a +shape feat.

How would Dusk Pulse's fatigue interact with say Aether Swarm, would that be exhausted after 2 failed saves?

As written, yes, it would (likewise, if you smacked people repeatedly with it). We're watching this one closely for balance, but it does require them to fail two saves; for a lot of characters' abilities, that could have meant something a lot worse than exhaustion for a minute.

One question however: do you plan to add a certain bent to clauses for the Pacts?
Either by giving each pact 2-4 exclusive clauses or (probably better to balance and easier) taking one of each grade that works slightly differently depending on your pact?

That would help making the different pacts even more unique (and build on the greatest improvement your version has so far: more variety).

We are not planning on making clauses function differently for certain pacts. It was an idea that came up in the early stages of the design, but since we already have a ton of pacts (and are planning lots more), the end result would feel like a given clause isn't worth taking unless you're taking the pact for it. Thus, if a pact has specific clauses, they're granted by the pact as part of its abilities.

However, we are doing clauses with thematics reminiscent of specific pacts (even though they're certainly not limited to them). If you look at the Old One pact's abilities, then at the list of clauses, you might see our theme naming for it. Likewise, some are fey themed, fiend themed, or similar, and we've got other stuff planned on the same lines.

At the same time, though, we want to keep the class as open to different concepts as possible, even if the default fluff states some connection. Avowed 2's SkyMarket appendix is actually going to be all about refluffing clauses to fit different pacts thematically, and refluffing the class itself for different character concepts.

Does the Aether Pulse have a listed damage type? I know there are ways to change its damage type, but what is the base?

Aether pulses default to typeless damage.

phlidwsn

2016-12-22, 10:21 PM

We are not planning on making clauses function differently for certain pacts. It was an idea that came up in the early stages of the design, but since we already have a ton of pacts (and are planning lots more), the end result would feel like a given clause isn't worth taking unless you're taking the pact for it. Thus, if a pact has specific clauses, they're granted by the pact as part of its abilities.

Just for ease of building for new players you may want to tag each pact with a small list of 'suggested clauses' or 'thematic clauses' so a new player doesn't have to parse the whole list to find the appropriate 'flavor' clauses for their pact, all else(word count, layout, etc) being equal.

Edit: I absolutely love what I see so far, I'm looking forward to a fey court warl^h^h^h^h avowed with its own mechanics to match the flavor.

upho

2016-12-23, 03:03 PM

Wohoo! Xmas gifts from Forrest and Taveena! Thank you!

Haven't had the time to read it all properly yet, but I just have to say I'm impressed by what I've seen so far. Seems this was made much in the same vein as my new favorite PoW discipline Fool's Errand, combining fun, different and balanced mechanics with tons of really cool flavor. I liked the 3e version, but this is a huge improvement. The only serious downsides I've found so far is that you're spoiling us with fancy layout and artwork - think about the poor writers trying to get feedback on playtest material presented in a boring Google doc after this - and that there isn't enough content. Me wants more! :smallannoyed:

I have a few questions/comments/nitpicks, but I'll save those for a later post once I've read everything properly and maybe done a bit of actual playtesting.

MilleniaAntares

2016-12-24, 03:21 AM

Taveena

2016-12-24, 04:25 AM

Is there any reason Lingering Aether doesn't work with Aether Swarm? It doesn't seem to be too overpowered from what I see. Certainly it would leave a bunch of squares affected (especially with the fourth level), but it certainly won't be much more than the other shapes (especially Aether Blast's double casting).

As aether swarm is concentration duration, rather than instantaneous, it has the potential to interact strangely - mostly the 'use' is somewhat unclear. As it is, aether swarm falls somewhat behind in terms of damage, but reworking lingering pulse to function with it would make tracking all the squares under the swarm's effect rather nightmarish for DMs and players alike. Still, your concerns have been taken on board.

MilleniaAntares

2016-12-24, 01:31 PM

Thank you!

The way I understand the possible feat + Aether Swarm interaction, is that only the squares that are attacked count for Lingering Aether. So you basically take snapshots of the area the swarm takes up at the end of the turn (when damage is applied), as opposed to including the entirety of the squares the swarm takes up during your turn.

KillingAScarab

2016-12-26, 10:30 AM

I haven't been through everything in the playtest PDF, but I have some suggested edits.

While, "pact attunement" appears on table 1-1, there is not a paragraph within this chapter (unlike pact sense).

An * appears after the 1st level value for "Shapes Known" on table 1-1, but no legend is given to explain its meaning.

Pulse Shapes has a noun omitted from the description. Guessed omission is in bold.

Whenever the avowed uses his aether pulse, he can choose to apply a single shape he knows to the effect.

Perhaps bonus feats found on this page which are introduced in this supplement should be noted as such? I do not know what the standard is for Pathfinder, but I recall encountering that in a number of 3.5 supplements.

Old One Pact Features - Attunement
The phrase "real hit points" appears. Is this a common phrase in Pathfinder? I only found one occurrence of it on d20pfsrd.com in temporary hit points (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Temporary-Hit-Points). Since there is a parenthetical reference to exclude temporary hit points, perhaps that is enough? The sentence also contains "take lose" within it. It would seem that "take" is superfluous, perhaps left over from an earlier draft.

The Old One Pact attunement also allows for movement while discorprated into a cloud of acrid smoke, but doesn't state what a character's type of movement, speed or maneuverability is while in that form.

Explicit protection from the death by massive damage rule seems quite powerful as written. Would this also prevent a coup de grace from working? If not, wouldn't a helpless avowed with this pact still be subject to death by massive damage? Some clarification of intent may be required here.

Old One Pact Features - Sense
There is an additional word. Strikethrough is mine.

If you wish, you can exclude the yourself and other beings of your choice from this sense.

Using Nevercast Shadows sidebar
A space appears to have been omitted before as well as after a word in this sidebar. However, I see that when I view the PDF as text, the spaces are there. This may have been to allow the text in its current format to fit on that line. If I zoom in on the PDF to greater than 100% in my preferred PDF viewer, the spaces are more visible. I have an altered version of the sentence which requires fewer characters I would like to share.

In order to stat a nevercast shadow, as a starting point the GM should grant an existing monster shadow conjuration and shadow evocation as at-will spell-like abilities and the following features from the shadow pact: Shadow Blend, Shadow Step, Shadow Form, and Nowhere to Hide.

Thank you!

The way I understand the possible feat + Aether Swarm interaction, is that only the squares that are attacked count for Lingering Aether. So you basically take snapshots of the area the swarm takes up at the end of the turn (when damage is applied), as opposed to including the entirety of the squares the swarm takes up during your turn.There is that bit about "its damage stacks with that of the first" when you make a new swarm with the 2nd selection. This implies two aether swarms from the same avowed may occupy the same area. That, I think, would be difficult to track.

A creature of the swarm subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-swarm) usually causes damage after it completes its move. Spells I'm aware of which summon a swarm seem to not allow control (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-swarm) over their movement, keep them in the area summoned (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/insect-plague) or allow the swarm to be controlled with the caster's standard action (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vomit-swarm). I can't think of spell effects which function like a swarm right now, but I'm inclined to think if that's the intention, dealing damage at the same time as a creature with the swarm subtype might keep things simpler. Perhaps there's a case for damaging spells which I have not considered.

Foxman778

2016-12-27, 03:16 PM

So why are Aether Pulses d8's instead of d6's like the Eldritch Blast of the 3.5 Warlock?

Forrestfire

2016-12-27, 05:45 PM

So why are Aether Pulses d8's instead of d6's like the Eldritch Blast of the 3.5 Warlock?

A slight increase in expected damage in order to meet the (moderately, but not particularly high) optimization floor goals we set.

meemaas

2016-12-27, 09:41 PM

A slight increase in expected damage in order to meet the (moderately, but not particularly high) optimization floor goals we set.

I kinda thought so. And it works in practice. I know it was always considered that the Warlock had a poor damage output, and the only things allowing the Kineticist to outdamage a Warlock are the static modifiers and composite blasts. D8s for blast damage was a beautiful choice, seeing as the alternative tends to scale better with Empower.

I revealed to the party about the Balefire Infusion and it was a beautiful trump card. It really helps mitigate the weakness of choosing to only do fire damage (Elemental Pact Fire), while having a meaningful downside against spamming.

Taveena

2016-12-28, 07:27 AM

A slight increase in expected damage in order to meet the (moderately, but not particularly high) optimization floor goals we set.

Specifically, the means necessary to keep up with other 3.5e damage dealers (and PF damage dealers, for that matter) were unintuitive and potentially against RAI - advancing Hellfire Warlock past third level via prestige classes.

SyrusRayne

2016-12-29, 06:36 AM

Forrestfire

2016-12-29, 12:13 PM

First, I'd just like to say how much I *love* the Avowed. It's exactly what I've been looking for, and with such a professional touch! Between this and the Spellburst Savant, I'm really looking forward to seeing what else you folks put out.

I do have a question or two about Aether Channel, however. (which probably have more to do with my own systems incompetence than anything).

Can it be used with unarmed attacks? Would that count as multiple weapons for purposes of adding only half the Pulse's damage? Moreover, would the Self pact's extra unarmed attack function with Aether Channel? Finally, Aether Channel's 2nd selection states that it counts as full BAB for the purposes of meeting prerequisites - meaning feats? I assume you'd only be able to use those feats while using AC, in that case?

Unarmed Strikes are a weapon, so yes, they work with aether channel. They're also a single weapon, even if TWFing with them, so it wouldn't be halved. Self pact's extra unarmed strike will be boosted if you've got aether channel affecting you at the time, and yes, you can take feats; they only function during aether channel's duration if you only qualify for them when you do that.

Hope that helps! :smallsmile:

Forrestfire

2016-12-31, 10:46 PM

Heyo! I hope you all had a wonderful holiday season (or, at least, a non-terrible one, particularly for those like me who worked all across Christmas), and a happy New Years.

Got a couple things for you today.

First, there’s an update to The Avowed: Promises of Power. This update includes a lot of small fixes and adjustments. The biggest one is that aether rounds has been restored to something closer to its original power (we overnerfed it), but with some tweaks to keep it sane. Lots of typo fixes, a couple balance tweaks.

Pacts
Celestial pact’s Heavenly Body now adds its bonus as a sacred bonus, not untyped.
Celestial pact’s rune of penance now notes that creatures are aware of the punishment it can cause.
Court Fey pact’s attunement clarified—it redirects to one target, not every possible target.
Fiend pact’s Disquieting Gaze is now 1/round.
Shadow pact’s attunement now grants a defensive benefit if you go fast.

Clauses and Shapes
Aether pulses now carry elemental descriptors if they deal energy damage.
Aether channel has been adjusted to have lowered damage when making touch attacks with weapons, in addition to with TWF.
Aether rampage’s rend is now Strength or Charisma, not just Charisma.
Aether retaliation lets you melee if you have aether blow.
Aether rounds has been buffed back up to applying to every attack, but adjusted to have lowered damage with TWF and touch attacks.
Air lock’s phrasing was adjusted to not reference “zones.”
Weatherproofing notes that it affects riders on the pulses too.

Feats
Aetheric Armor has had its prerequisites loosened a bit to allow for non-pure-muscle avowed to grab it.
Embodiment of Aether now also swaps for pact abilities that rely on Cha, but no longer buffs Spellcraft.
Merciful Pulse now works for clause damage too.

Other
Typooooo fixes.
Clauses can now be dismissed (it’s in the base class’ clause section).
Starting age of the class has been added.
Specific names of multiple websites have been removed from the Specials Thanks section in order to prevent any trouble that it might cause if said websites don’t want me listing them.
Second, it’s the end of the month, and so we’re bringing you this month’s (and part of last month’s) project. The playtest materials for The Avowed: Heart and Soul can be found in this Google doc. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLIgc/edit?usp=sharing) This has been a long time in the coming, but sadly, it’s not quite done yet. We’re putting the playtest up in its alpha form, much like Avowed 1 was. However, this time, it’s a lot more complete than the first pdf of A1 was… And, of course, big. This 43-page doc includes the following:

The Aspirant, an avowed archetype based on transforming into something greater. They give up all-day usage in exchange for increased power for a very limited time per day.
The Betrothed, an avowed archetype based around having a particularly close relationship with one’s patron—not necessarily romantic, but that’s certainly an option. This archetype brings a companion to the table, as an ally in and outside of combat.
Two new pacts: Divine (patron) and Undead (symbiotic).
Subpacts! These are like mini-archetypes for individual pacts. In The Avowed: Heart and Soul, we’re including subpacts for the Celestial, Fiend, and Undead pacts, for various different subsets of the larger groups of beings.
A new shape, aether well, which leaves damaging areas around the battlefield.
Four new clauses for all avowed to take; one a skill buff and the other three modulations.
A new race, the Penitent. These beings are souls returned from the lower planes to find redemption—or fall back into damnation. We’ve included the base race as well as several alternate racial traits, a set of alternate favored class bonuses, and a race trait for them.
And speaking of traits, in addition to the race trait for the Penitents, there’s two generic traits for people to take, that tie into the Penitent’s fluff, but aren’t limited to only them.
Finally, we have 13 new feats—eleven for the avowed bonus feat lists, and two new damnation feats.
Avowed 2 isn’t finished yet, but most of the content is up. In the coming days and weeks, we’ll be adding the rest of the pacts’ Aspirant and Betrothed versions, as well as possibly new feats or expanded stuff as needed. In any case, here’s A2, and there’s more to come. Enjoy, and happy New Years!

MilleniaAntares

2017-01-01, 02:51 AM

Avowed 1: Aether Grasp has "Standard action (see text)", but I see nothing in the text that indicates a time when the action isn't a standard action... So for instance, Greater Grapple doesn't seem to allow you to use it as a move action.

Avowed 2 looks pretty great so far! I've been reading through this in the past few hours, and have been jotting down notes. Apologies if this is a repeat of anything anyone has already said.

Lesser Energy Aura seems like a candidate for Weatherproofing-provided immunity... if you feel like using it.

Least Grasping Tentacles mentions a suffocation quality, but I can't find that easily on d20pfsrd.com. Perhaps you may wish to reprint the rules.

Incomprehensible Form: no save DC?

"Betrothed Empowerment (Su): At 4th, 12th, and 20th levels, a betrothed and her companion gains unique based on their pact."

You're missing a word between the two bolded words.

Do you have any plans to add the betrothed descriptor based on the thematics of the pact? Or do you just want to keep it to a few unique clauses and keep it to the double-casting ability?

Amorphous base form: you repeat the anatomy text twice. Not sure if this is intentional, but it does seem odd.

Idealization doesn't specify when it's supernatural or extraordinary.

Pact of Unlife: no save?

For Omnipotence, I am not sure if you want to specify that you can't put in an alignment trait opposite to your deity's.

Undead Horde may need the "as a free action even if not during your turn" specification.

Aether Well is rather amazing! Though, I'm not quite sure if you want to put a cap on the number of wells that can be out at a time or not...

Windchill Pulse may benefit from giving examples of what counts as "fine manipulation". Certainly Sleight of Hand uses count, but does pulling a gun's or crossbow's trigger count? Shooting an arrow?

TiaC

2017-01-01, 02:56 AM

This looks really cool. Thanks for posting it!

I have a few questions and comments.

What is a Betrothed’s Companion's type?

Can I suggest that the divine pact sense allow you to sense other worshipers of your deity?

I'm not too fond of Sacred Relic, as it asks the GM to come up with a whole lot of content and generally requires a sidequest to use, especially since the GM has to create all the artifacts and methods as soon as you get the ability and meditate.

Omnipotence doesn't specify a range. Also, many traits aren't well defined. E.g. timeless says "How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane." What is the personality of a Sentient plane? Static gives you perfect spell immunity, which seems pretty powerful. Do the Elemental traits create that element?

Touch of Malediction stacks, but so does Touch of Decay. So, let's say my Mummy Pact Avowed hits an opponent three times and then they hit me. Does Touch of Malediction trigger three times per hit?

Can Aether Wells be created in mid-air?

For Artificer’s Insight, can I recommend the following clarification to the wording to make it clear that it doesn't apply to the skill bonuses? (Unless it's meant to, but I didn't think so.) "This bonus to reflex saves and AC increases by +1 at caster level 5th and every five caster levels thereafter."

The new traits are absolutely beautiful. Thank you for the freedom from abilities being locked to narrow fluff. Is Dark Knight, Bright Heart meant to allow you to play a Good Antipaladin? As is, it protects you from consequences for good acts, but not from ones for a good alignment.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-01, 04:08 AM

Least Grasping Tentacles mentions a suffocation quality, but I can't find that easily on d20pfsrd.com. Perhaps you may wish to reprint the rules.Wow, really? I'm not familiar with this "suffocation quality," but if it works like the rules for suffocation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Suffocation), that seems very, very powerful. Suffocation is one of the ways to kill even high level characters very quickly in D&D, and Pathfinder kept it.

khadgar567

2017-01-01, 04:13 AM

love the Betrothed archetype but wings evolution looks little bit to powerless for mt taste

GrayDeath

2017-01-01, 06:35 AM

Maybe I am still too tired, but where can one get the updated version of avowed 1?

The new archetypes look exciting, really cool.stufr so.far!

Forrestfire

2017-01-01, 07:54 AM

I'll get to the rest of these comments in a bit, but...

Maybe I am still too tired, but where can one get the updated version of avowed 1?

The new archetypes look exciting, really cool.stufr so.far!

You can find it at this google drive link. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg/view) It's always going to be uploaded to that link.

Taveena

2017-01-01, 09:57 AM

Typos and wording errors have been noted, but to respond to a few concerns on design choices...

Least Grasping Tentacles should be the Smother quality, my bad on misremembering the name there.
Incomprehensible indeed does not have a saving throw DC - think of it as something like a miss chance. A percentage roll to see if they get to attack, more than a reliable debuff. This is part of why it's notably weaker than the standard Confusion condition.
Pact of Unlife doesn't offer a save because it already offers a failstate (failing to actually damage the creature). Plus, providing temporary hit points to SIGNIFICANTLY limited targets seems unnecessary to negate - other Undead pacts can gain that healing without any enemy saves involved. Forcing the Betrothed to do it seems unnecessary.
Undead Horde is a non-action rather than a free action - so it occurs even if you're entirely unable to take actions (such as if a creature dies from your Touch of Decay while you're dazed - or even dead.)
Omnipotence's flexibility is not something we're too concerned with. Sure, a Good deity creating an Evil 'plane' feels weird, but that's how many stories about Hell come about. You've just created a little 10 foot zone of torment for your Evil party member to punish the wicked.
Sacred Relic will typically be 'craft another instance of an existing minor relic in setting'. The sidequest, in this case, should be something that furthers the general goals of the deity, not necessarily a great involved adventure involving them. Any suitably just quest should allow you to craft your patron Justice deity's artifact.
While Touch of Malediction's temporary hit points stack, it should check for the binary 'are they slowed by ToD -> if yes, gain temp HP' rather than triggering on each instance. Working on wording to fix that.

phlidwsn

2017-01-01, 01:35 PM

Aspirant: Do they ever get more than CHA rounds of form? There's a line setting the max number of rounds at 1st level, but no text to ever let it scale that I see.

Taveena

2017-01-01, 01:45 PM

Aspirant: Do they ever get more than CHA rounds of form? There's a line setting the max number of rounds at 1st level, but no text to ever let it scale that I see.

They scale through natural Charisma advancement. The overall intention is to have it scale much slower than most abilities - this is not a barbarian's rage or a bard's song. You should not have this ability up all the time. The 10-13 rounds you have per day at level 20 feels like a significant upgrade to the 3-5 rounds you have at 1, but not so much that you can afford to turn into Cthulhu for the entirety of every fight you're in. It's a choice.

phlidwsn

2017-01-01, 06:48 PM

Noted. I'm not arguing its too small a number, its just that with the 'at 1st level' language it seemed like there might be a second part left out or that I was missing somewhere.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-01, 07:28 PM

Least Grasping Tentacles should be the Smother quality, my bad on misremembering the name there.Ah. It seems smother (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Smother-Ex-) is a special attack. It requires a grapple combat maneuver to use. That's a considerably better barrier than my first impression.

Mithril Leaf

2017-01-02, 06:49 AM

So it seems to me that one could take both Aether Blades and Aether Channel to double down on the Bruiser role. Not too super crazy, but quite strong. Also for Aether Rounds, what if you are using multiple touch weapons, such as dragon pistols?

EDIT: Also Divine Blessing with the Travel Domain's level 10 Warpriest Blessing could be funky. Check it out.

EDIT2: You also need a Mystic Theurge Clause in the Prestige Class section.

MilleniaAntares

2017-01-02, 09:30 AM

So it seems to me that one could take both Aether Blades and Aether Channel to double down on the Bruiser role.
You can only use one aether blast shape at a time.

Taveena

2017-01-02, 06:10 PM

Also Divine Blessing with the Travel Domain's level 10 Warpriest Blessing could be funky. Check it out.

Wording error on our part, Divine Blessing should only give access to the level 1 blessing of your domains.

Mithril Leaf

2017-01-02, 08:22 PM

You can only use one aether blast shape at a time.

Yes, but they're both free actions so can you not use one and then the other? I know there's a limit to free actions, but two doesn't seem to be excessive.

Taveena

2017-01-02, 08:24 PM

Yes, but they're both free actions so can you not use one and then the other? I know there's a limit to free actions, but two doesn't seem to be excessive.

No, as in, we literally wrote 'you can't use one aether pulse shape while you have another active'. It's not an action problem, it's "we explicitly disallowed this".

"If the avowed is currently using an ongoing shape with his aether pulse, he cannot use different aether pulse until it ends unless otherwise specified."

Forrestfire

2017-01-02, 08:25 PM

Yes, but they're both free actions so can you not use one and then the other? I know there's a limit to free actions, but two doesn't seem to be excessive.

It's a limit in the rules for shapes. From the start of their section on page 30:

"If the avowed is currently using an ongoing shape with his aether pulse, he cannot use different aether pulse until it ends unless otherwise specified. For example, an avowed who uses aether blade must wait until his next turn to use a different aether pulse, and an avowed that's maintaining aether grasp cannot use aether pulses other than further aether grasps. Shapes that are activated as free actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity for their activation (but might for their attacks). Such shapes can only be used once per round, and using one prevents the avowed from using the others."

EDIT: Oh pfft, Tav beat me to it. Whoops.

Taveena

2017-01-02, 08:41 PM

Oh no. It's spread to the forums...

Mithril Leaf

2017-01-02, 08:49 PM

MilleniaAntares

2017-01-02, 09:59 PM

The text means the size bonuses and special size bonuses to stuff like AC/CMD, CMB, skills, and the like.

Mithril Leaf

2017-01-02, 10:03 PM

The text means the size bonuses and special size bonuses to stuff like AC/CMD, CMB, skills, and the like.

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense, yeah.

Forrestfire

2017-01-02, 10:53 PM

Ah gotcha. That is indeed the case and I totally missed it. Apologies for how oblivious I am.

Follow up, did you guys add that you can't double dip using Mystic Theurge? Because while I do love me some double dipping class levels, it's probably not great for balance.

Also Aether rounds while dual wielding Pistols, yay or nay for just the one halving?

EDIT: I may also be used to the good old Dragonfire Adept rocking, but Aether Breath seems like it kind of isn't that good. Yeah you get good entangles, but it does normal damage with a save for half and can only hit someone once per turn.

EDIT 2: Does Aether Breath count as having a Breath Weapon?

EDIT 3: Regarding the Growth Ability:

Pathfinder doesn't actually have a normal size increase bonus like 3.5 did. Mark Seifter learned this lesson with the Mauler Archetype. You have to specify what the bonuses are, because there's like 4 different options. I would guess the Eidolon ones, but there's no particular reason for that beyond the conceptual similarity.

Aether Rounds: Just halves once.
Aether Breath: The big thing about aether breath is that it'll deal damage twice (thanks to the clinging aspect), and is a massive AoE that won't friendly fire if you're focusing on it (thanks to weatherproofing).
Growth: As noted by MilleniaAntares, this means the size bonuses to AC/etc.
Mystic Theurges: Adjusted.

Also, I've just uploaded a new PDF for avowed 1. Here's the changelog:

Clauses and Shapes
- Aether Barrage has been fully reworked after taking a further look at it.
- Aether Grasp’s “(see text)” has been removed—it was meant to imply that the grapple maintaining was part of it, but so far it’s just caused confusion.
Feats
- Empower Spell-Like Ability now has a note saying that for multi-round aether pulses, you need to expend a use for each round (so you can’t, say, open with an Empowered swarm thn reap the benefits for an entire fight).
Other
- Clarified that going into mystic theurge doesn't double-dip clause progression

Mithril Leaf

2017-01-02, 11:53 PM

Aether Breath: The big thing about aether breath is that it'll deal damage twice (thanks to the clinging aspect), and is a massive AoE that won't friendly fire if you're focusing on it (thanks to weatherproofing).

I recognize the damage isn't terrible after factoring that in, but it's still just straight up worse than Aether Blast in every way but the entangle. Smaller area, you can't drop it at range, does it's damage over multiple rounds, save is for 1/4 damage instead of half. Now dropping two feats for Village does give it somewhat better area, but most of the time you really won't need that much area covered, especially after you get the ability to drop 2 Blasts at once.

KillingAScarab

2017-01-03, 02:03 AM

I would like to suggest a name change for the greater modulation "ether pulse" on page 39 of "The Avowed: Promises of Power." As far as I am aware, aether and ether have the same pronunciation; while one can see a difference in text, I don't think this will work well around a game table. I forsee the GM asking why you repeated the name of your attack when you changed your aether pulse by using ether pulse. "Hidden pulse" might be a good descriptive alternative, given that the modulation both hides your aether pulse and allows it to affect what are normally hidden creatures: those on the ethereal plane. The only clause which currently uses "hidden" in that document is hidden knowledge.

Another alternative might be "invisible pulse." This would be more descriptive of one portion of the effect over the others, but again, it can affect ethereal creatures which are not normally visible.

"Ghost pulse" might be a candidate.

"Force pulse" would place the modulation in the same spot on the list alphabetically (presently), but has the downside that it sounds like what "concussive pulse" does.

Nyaa

2017-01-03, 04:44 AM

- Aether Barrage has been fully reworked after taking a further look at it.
Is it not intended to be used with Aether Blow at all?

as part of the same action
I know Avowed doesn't acknowledge existence of PoW, but I believe RAW it works with double- and multihit maneuvers and style feats.
Also with Aether Rampage 4, intended?

Forrestfire

2017-01-03, 11:01 AM

Is it not intended to be used with Aether Blow at all?

It's not, no. Aether blow states that shapes work normally, as if you had aether pulse instead.

I know Avowed doesn't acknowledge existence of PoW, but I believe RAW it works with double- and multihit maneuvers and style feats.
Also with Aether Rampage 4, intended?

It's meant to work with aether rampage 4, with full attacks, and with existing style feat type stuff (potentially chaining combat maneuvers into a pseudo-full-attack, for example; it only works once per round but it can be fairly neat with that). PoW is... Iffier. I'd consider houseruling it to not work with multihit maneuvers that aren't specifically full attacks.

Knight Magenta

2017-01-03, 12:26 PM

Forrestfire

2017-01-03, 12:40 PM

Noticed two things:

Falter, the 4th level old-one pact augmentation gives a +3 resistance bonus in return for stripping mind immunity. This is not a good idea because creature that have cloaks of resistance (like paladins) end up having their resistance stripped for free. This should be an untyped bonus. Also, I seem to recall DSP has set precedent that stripping mind-immunity was worth +5, any reason why you chose +3 here?

Shadow pact attunement gives a 10 + level spell resistance. Traditionally, spell resistance comes in "bad" (6+level) and "good" (11+level). This is so that an equal level caster has a 75% or 50% chance of affecting you. A 55% chance just feels strange. Was this intentional?

For Falter, this is intentional. It's a resistance bonus (just like the ones that DSP uses, actually) because much of the time, NPCs won't be carrying around maxed cloaks of resistance, and even if they are, the goal is to provide an enabler for the avowed, at a high cost (the pact choice). Against monsters, it's a more sizable buff to them because they tend to not have particularly great Will saves in comparison. We chose +3 for similar reasons. +5 felt like it was too high for the avowed to feasibly function at low levels (especially when trying to use their abilities on undead and similar, a common enemy at those levels). Originally, it didn't grant a bonus at all, so the +3 was added as a bit of a compromise to give enemies some benefit from being immune.

Shadow pact attnement was placed at 10 because it was a round number. Honestly, it slipped my mind, and we'll likely adjust it a bit.

knightfall

2017-01-04, 10:49 PM

Would an item in the vein of the chasuble of fell power or the kineticist's diadem throw off the damage output math?

If not, would you be more likely to use the prices for the chasuble or the prices for the diadem?

Nyaa

2017-01-05, 01:54 PM

Spirited Swordsmanship not adding damage to aether channel used with unarmed strike makes building self pact avowed kinda awkward.

Insectile Transformation is missing from clause list on page 27.
Is there a reason it doesn't duplicate Vermin Shape 2 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vermin-shape-i)?

MilleniaAntares

2017-01-06, 03:28 AM

Some general concept questions:

Any plans to include non-energy modulations? Like bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, sacred, profane...

Also, do you have any plans to try to future-proof the class with the possibility of an archetype that swaps out charisma for another attribute? It could just be having an "avowed modifier", kinda like PoW2 classes.

Are the applicable pacts of Avowed 1 going to be ported to the aspirant and betrothed archetypes? Funnily enough, I'm interested in a dragon aspirant, and a fiend betrothed...

It is strange to not have the size-changing options of betrothed and aspirants affect strength and dexterity. I'm curious why you chose to design them that way.

Specific feedback:

The Attunement (Sadism) alternate class feature may not interact well with Disquieting Gaze and this portion of Dark Metamorphosis: "Whenever a creature you've penalized with your attunement would regain hit points, they instead gain no hit points, and you gain temporary hit points equal to the healing they would have received."

As written, the Homecoming clause allows one to go from a non-material plane to the personal demiplane then to the material plane. Is this intended?

The Energy Aura customization says both "enemies" and "creatures adjacent to the companion", which can be considered contradictory. Which do you intend it would be?

If one is mounted with a lance (or has Spirited Charge), has the Aether Drive feat, and uses a charging Aether Lance... is the lance's damage doubled?

Suggestions:

How about allowing the companion to be small or medium, similar to how eidolons can be either size?

Perhaps betrothed can get teamwork feats added to their bonus feat list?

The Aether Rake feat seems to be too weak, as the only actual benefit I can see happening is getting to use Aether Rampage after maintaining a grapple with Aether Grasp... while having Greater Grapple. Edit: this may be obsolete, please see my next post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21581185&postcount=85).

Aether Skirmisher would benefit from allowing the use of Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, and Ride-by Attack as appropriate.

SyrusRayne

2017-01-07, 10:15 PM

Once again, loving the new release. Divine Pact! I'm looking forward to playing a Pentitent some day as well!

I have another question, however, this time regarding Aether Spark. Aether Spark III in particular combos pretty hard with Magic Missile wands, since it gives you extra auto-hit missiles to split up as you please. Is that intentional?

Mithril Leaf

2017-01-08, 09:52 AM

So try not to take this the wrong way because it's either that I'm just really oblivious or personal preference. Because I really do like the class in many ways.

But I have the question of what is the Avowed very good at? I see that they have a number of neat abilities. I see a few cool buffs, a few debuffs, some decent blasting. But they don't seem to be exceptional in any specific field. Or even really good. They seem intentionally to be jacks of all trades, but what is their role in a party? They lack the versatility to be casters, the damage they deal is decent but not enough to compete with properly built martials. There's some debuffing, but they can only ever get one debuff off a turn basically. Am I just missing some avenue to greatness?

Nyaa

2017-01-08, 10:52 AM

Shatter modulation alone makes them T3 :P

Their role seems to be primary debuffer, secondary dps, secondary (primary if you don't have prepared caster in the party) utility.
DPS optimization seems to be in weapon-like shapes, not in AoE.

Knight Magenta

2017-01-09, 12:34 PM

I feel like the avowed lack some non-modulaton combat clauses. Aether swarm is a neat blast shape that wants you to direct a swarm while you use non blast effects. However, there are no least clauses that both take a standard action and I would want to use in combat. Compare to just the core the warlock:

Warlock non-blast combat effects:
Breath of the Night,
Darkness,
Earthen Grasp,
Miasmic Cloud,
Summon Swarm

The Avowed, by contrast only has Nightfall, and that mostly makes your friends sad and does not work against half the monsters in the game.

I think the avowed would benefit from some ability to place walls at low levels, or maybe super-short term buffs for his allies. For example, maybe a clause that lets you move an ally 30ft, that at higher level lets you grant them a fly speed as well for a few rounds.

GrayDeath

2017-01-09, 02:02 PM

After going over it again and again, I have not found any real balance points so far....but a point where the otherwise really good implementation of fluff is ...weird.

The Self pact. I simply love the fluff, just to say it again. You make a pact with yourself and gain Power from it. :)

I mean hearing the descriptive Fluff it should be the most customizeable pact of all ... and then you get a worse Monk.
Dont get me wrong, a Monk-Pact is cool and all, maybe call it "Fist Pact" or somesuch?^^, but the Self pact should be something wider, more customizeable (as I at least doubt that the Goal of ones SELF always is "hit guys hard with your fists!), that allows you to choose what to improve regarding your Self.

Maybe along the lines of gaining various resistances/Immunities and Attribute Boosts (permanent increases and Self buffing come to mind)?

MilleniaAntares

2017-01-10, 02:15 AM

Trying out a small build to see if I have the rules interpretations and math correct.

Shapes Taken: Aether Grasp x2, Aether Wrath x3
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Greater Unarmed Strike, Aether Rake, Rampaging Frenzy, Greater Grapple

I believe the earliest this can be attained is level 10. Strength will be assumed to be superior to charisma for simplicity.

Turn 1: Aether Grasp, successfully grapple and deal 5d8. Enemy fails to escape grapple.
Turn 2: Aether Grasp to maintain Grapple, deal 5d8. Choose damage option to hit with claw #1 for 1d6+5d8+str. As a move action, make a second, regular grapple check, succeed, deal 1d6+5d8+str damage with claw #2. Rend procs, dealing 1d6+5d8+1.5*str damage. Rampaging Frenzy procs, allowing a second attack with one of the claws for 1d6+5d8+str damage.

So if everything in turn 2 hits, the damage will be... 3d6+20d8+4.5*str.

Once BAB reaches above +11 (avowed 15), the previous attacks gain +3d8 damage, and the other claw gets to go for 1d6+8d8+str damage... for a total of 4d6+48d8+5.5*str.

Am I correct in my interpretation of the rules? Or does the "damage with claws" option of a successful grapple not count for the above purposes?

Edit: Is there a reason why Insectile Transformation only allows vermin creatures instead of animals? I can imagine avowed being able to transform into most any type of animal that beast shape II allows, like... say, cats or whatnot.

meemaas

2017-01-17, 09:46 PM

MilleniaAntares

2017-01-18, 10:04 PM

The Mystic Reflexes feat does not indicate that "fire an unmodified aether pulse as an AoO" can be used while another shape is active, which means that the feat cannot be used with non-weaponlike shapes like Aether Swarm. Is this intentional?

Forrestfire

2017-02-07, 02:18 PM

It has been quite a long time! I'm really sorry for the long silence; between travel, wonkiness with work hours, and illness, we haven't been able until now to get everything we wanted done, done. However, today we've got an update each for both Avowed 1 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg) and Avowed 2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLIgc/edit?usp=sharing)—the changelogs are below, and individual responses to posters are in the third spoiler.

Pacts

Celestial pact’s Heavenly Body adds the bonus to pact ability save DCs too now.
Nation pact’s sense has been adjusted a bit to merely sense peoples’ nation of origin.
Old One pact’s attunement now scales by class level instead of max HP; for single-classed avowed, it’s effectively the same, but it’s less good for dips.
Shadow pact’s attunement’s SR while moving has been upped to 11 + class level. Clarified what “hostile effects” means by replacing it with better-worded rules.
The homecoming pact clause has been adjusted to move you to and from a given plane, instead of just the Material Plane.

Clauses and Shapes

You can no longer retrain a clause to a lower-grade clause. Instead, chameleon clauses can be taken multiple times.
Most 24-hour durations have been changed to “permanent, but can be dispelled or dismissed.”
There’s a new type of shape, “weapon shapes”. These have more standardized rules and include aether barrage, aether blade, aether channel, aether rampage, and aether rounds.
Aether blast has had its area reduced slightly at all levels.
Aether circus has been removed and replaced with aether eruption, a similar shape for a massive AoE effect centered on you. We’ll be doing a proper Itano Circus ability later down the line, but right now, we’re moving to this.
Aether grasp is no longer Str + Cha; it’s Str + a flat bonus, (Cha + a flat bonus if you take Spirited Swordsmanship, or Dex + a flat bonus with Agile Maneuvers). It also doesn’t grapple you back when grappling at range.
Aether retaliation is now melee-or-ranged.
Aether rounds now allows off-turn reloading if you have a weapon that shoots off-turn.
Aether swarm has been reworked—it now allows unshaped aether pulses while maintaining it, has a different extra-damage rank, and should overall be easier to use and more interesting at lower levels.
Dragon’s teeth has been reworked to be more combat-centric without bogging the game down too hard; you can still animate permanent undead outside of combat by using onyx gems.
Ether pulse has been renamed to ghostly pulse.
Frostbite pulse now deals Str or Dex damage, instead of just Dex.
The eyes of fate Greater clause has been added to replace weakening pulse, which was rolled into frostbite pulse.
Insectile transformation now works like vermin shape.
Fist of the sky is now a least; light show has been buffed and is now a lesser.
Inferno pulse no longer hits allies, instead granting cold resistance as they warm themselves on the magical bonfire of burning foes.
Rebind spell now has a range (close)

Feats

Aether Duelist is now a specialized counts-as-TWF feat with more stuff for use with aether barrage as well as aether blade.
Aether Outburst feat has been adjusted—it’s now a combo feat for aether eruption and aether retaliation.
Embodiment of Aether clarifies interactions with soul gem resurrections.
Merciful Pulse now adds a bonus to damage when using it.
Mystic Reflexes allows you to fire the AoO aether pulses even if you have a shape up.
Spirited Swordsmanship applies to all aether pulses now, as well as extra attacks from pact empowerments.
Steel’s Betrayal has been revised to a similar, but slightly different effect.
Skymarket: Dark Bargain no longer lets you buy your own soul from yourself to gain healing abilities for use on yourself.

Other

Oreads now get a burrow speed once they’ve grabbed their FCB 5 times.
I’ve found a way to turn off ligatures in the text. It should stop screwing up some peoples’ copy/pasting out of the document.
Pact senses have been moved down to 1st level, and the bonus shape from an avowed’s shape has been moved to 2nd level.
All avowed gain detect magic as an at-will SLA at 2nd level.

Aspirant

Aspiration rounds have been changed from Cha mod per day to 6 + 1/2 Cha bonus per day, to let lower-level aspirants have enough to function in any given day, while keeping the same dynamic as before at mid and high levels.
The aspirant archetype no longer penalizes shape save DCs when not in aspiration form.
Fading form form modification has some text added in the effect to make you not fall into the ground.
Gale wings form modification’s Final grade has been buffed.
The Elemental and Undead aspirant pacts have been added.

Betrothed

Betrothed can select teamwork feats as bonus feats now.
Betrothed and their companions now note how their turn order works (you can interweave actions freely).
Companions’ array includes a 9 instead of an 8 now.
Companions now get pact sense too (whoops).
Insubstantial form modification has some text added in the effect to make you not fall into the ground.
Fey pact’s Mirror Ball now creates temporary simulacra if you didn’t use expensive components, and its Glamour ability has been adjusted.

Pacts

Divine Pact attunement and sense now affect all divine spells, but have an increased effect on your chosen domains.
Subpacts are now noted to be takeable by archetypes that modify pacts.
Celestial (Agathion) pact adds its bonus to save DCs as a sacred bonus, like the base pact.
Elemental (Genie) subpact added.

Clauses and Shapes

Trash pulse added.
Smoke pulse and windchill pulse no longer offer a saving throw.

Feats

The damnation feats are capped at 4 per character if this book is being used.
Soldier of Misfortune now has scaling on its fast healing, better DR and a new rank 4.
Hellfire Talent rank 3 has been moved to rank 4, and now increases attack rolls further at rank 3.
The Reshape Aspiration feat now applies in your false super saiyan form if you have Impatient Transcendance.
The Guardian Spirit, Heart of Aether, Heart of Magic, Corona, and Shield of Souls feats have been added.
The Altered Life and Unnatural Resilience feats from DSP’s Bloodforge have been reproduced in this document.

“Does Aether Breath count as having a Breath Weapon?” Mithril Leaf

Explicitly so. (“This shape counts as a breath weapon for the purposes of abilities and effects, as well as for requirements and prerequisites.”)

“Would an item in the vein of the chasuble of fell power or the kineticist's diadem throw off the damage output math? If not, would you be more likely to use the prices for the chasuble or the prices for the diadem?” knightfall

It would. We have some items planned for the avowed, but we won’t be adding a chasuble of fell power or kineticist’s diadem equivalent—both because of tighter math that functions without items, and because honestly, the diadem is way overpriced, but sets precedent we’d need to account for.

“Spirited Swordsmanship not adding damage to aether channel used with unarmed strike makes building self pact avowed kinda awkward.” Nyaa

Yeah, it does. Spirited Swordsmanship is being adjusted partly for this reason, and partly because of more math being run.

“Insectile Transformation is missing from clause list on page 27. Is there a reason it doesn't duplicate Vermin Shape 2 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vermin-shape-i)?”Nyaa

Honestly I think we just forgot it existed. It now does. It’s also now on the list, oops.

“Any plans to include non-energy modulations? Like bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, sacred, profane…”MilleniaAntares

Not really—as they ignore DR anyway those damage types are a straight nerf. Feel free to fluff your aether pulse as being a blade, club, energy bow, or other thing, though.

“Also, do you have any plans to try to future-proof the class with the possibility of an archetype that swaps out charisma for another attribute? It could just be having an "avowed modifier", kinda like PoW2 classes.”MilleniaAntares

We do not. We’re planning on only Strength, Charisma, and as of this update, Constitution. This is because the ability scores really aren’t balanced against each other—Str and Cha do very little natively that isn’t easily poached by other stats, so we’ve been treating them as roughly equivalent. Constitution, similarly, is an important stat, but not one that does a lot, especially in a game where useful feats like Altered Life (from DSP’s Bloodforge) exist to swap its stuff to Charisma.

In this update, we’ve reprinted Altered Life and its sister feat in Avowed 2, as well as adding a Constitution swap pair of feats similar to Embodiment of Aether, themed around the Dragon pact (as breath weapons are Con-based).

“Are the applicable pacts of Avowed 1 going to be ported to the aspirant and betrothed archetypes? Funnily enough, I'm interested in a dragon aspirant, and a fiend betrothed…”MilleniaAntares

The intention is to eventually have every pact have an Aspirant version, and every non-esoteric pact have a Betrothed version. Avowed 2, when finished, will have all of the pacts so far, and then later new pacts will detail their benefits for these two archetypes, if applicable.

“It is strange to not have the size-changing options of betrothed and aspirants affect strength and dexterity. I'm curious why you chose to design them that way.”MilleniaAntares

If they actually affected ability scores, they'd become far too necessary as options. We don't want people to be forced to play their Lich Aspirant as a two-inch skeleton. As it is, the size increases and decreases have their own upsides and downsides, but won’t be boosting (or reducing) ability scores.

“The Attunement (Sadism) alternate class feature may not interact well with Disquieting Gaze and this portion of Dark Metamorphosis: "Whenever a creature you've penalized with your attunement would regain hit points, they instead gain no hit points, and you gain temporary hit points equal to the healing they would have received."”MilleniaAntares

We screwed up. There’ll be a fixed version when we get an update to Avowed 2 out.

“As written, the Homecoming clause allows one to go from a non-material plane to the personal demiplane then to the material plane. Is this intended?”MilleniaAntares

Nope, it’s been changed to move you back to the plane you were on before.

“The Energy Aura customization says both "enemies" and "creatures adjacent to the companion", which can be considered contradictory. Which do you intend it would be?”MilleniaAntares

Meant to be just opponents.

“If one is mounted with a lance (or has Spirited Charge), has the Aether Drive feat, and uses a charging Aether Lance... is the lance's damage doubled?”MilleniaAntares

Gooood question! It looks like the answer is no (it’s an attack with the aether lance, albeit one that’s dealing more damage).

“How about allowing the companion to be small or medium, similar to how eidolons can be either size?”MilleniaAntares

You know, it actually used to have verbiage for that, but it got lost in one of the rewrites. We’ll be adding the ability to do that, among other upcoming adjustments to avowed 2.

“Perhaps betrothed can get teamwork feats added to their bonus feat list?”MilleniaAntares

That’s a really good idea. Consider it done… Once we get the update for beta live.

“The Aether Rake feat seems to be too weak, as the only actual benefit I can see happening is getting to use Aether Rampage after maintaining a grapple with Aether Grasp... while having Greater Grapple.”MilleniaAntares

Which is a pretty sizable DPR boost, no?

Trying out a small build to see if I have the rules interpretations and math correct.

Shapes Taken: Aether Grasp x2, Aether Wrath x3
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Greater Unarmed Strike, Aether Rake, Rampaging Frenzy, Greater Grapple

I believe the earliest this can be attained is level 10. Strength will be assumed to be superior to charisma for simplicity.

Turn 1: Aether Grasp, successfully grapple and deal 5d8. Enemy fails to escape grapple.
Turn 2: Aether Grasp to maintain Grapple, deal 5d8. Choose damage option to hit with claw #1 for 1d6+5d8+str. As a move action, make a second, regular grapple check, succeed, deal 1d6+5d8+str damage with claw #2. Rend procs, dealing 1d6+5d8+1.5*str damage. Rampaging Frenzy procs, allowing a second attack with one of the claws for 1d6+5d8+str damage.

So if everything in turn 2 hits, the damage will be... 3d6+20d8+4.5*str.

Once BAB reaches above +11 (avowed 15), the previous attacks gain +3d8 damage, and the other claw gets to go for 1d6+8d8+str damage... for a total of 4d6+48d8+5.5*str.

Am I correct in my interpretation of the rules? Or does the "damage with claws" option of a successful grapple not count for the above purposes?

RAW that’s not how it works; dealing damage with claws isn’t the same as hitting with an attack with the claws (for some reason). RAI, it’s a bit much overall, and we’re making it clearer in the Relentless Frenzy feat.

“Aether Skirmisher would benefit from allowing the use of Spring Attack and/ Shot on the Run, as appropriate.”MilleniaAntares

That’d be pretty cool. We’ll be adding a Special line for that, to make it work nicely.

“I have another question, however, this time regarding Aether Spark. Aether Spark III in particular combos pretty hard with Magic Missile wands, since it gives you extra auto-hit missiles to split up as you please. Is that intentional?”SyrusRayne

That is intended; note that you basically get… A smaller number of aether circus missiles (with longer range), or a weaker version of aether wave (because ranged touch attacks rarely miss), in what the effect actually is. Don’t forget that you can only deal the +damage from aether pulse once per target with aether spark/.

“I have the question of what is the Avowed very good at?”Mithril Leaf

Quite a bit, actually—they have strong skills in their field (particularly Charisma-based skills), access to a decent amount of at-will utility, excellent scouting and mobility if they build for it, and in combat, they’re primarily striker/off-debuffers, but can build full striker (weapon shapes for single-target damage that’ll compare to (but generally not exceed) dedicated martial gishes and similar), full debuffer (excellent vectors for delivering useful debuffs to enemies while bringing no-save damage through [I]aether swarm or aether circus), or a mix. Overall, the class is designed to function well regardless of the choices you make, so it’s decent at most things, but won’t be good at something unless you focus it (which is doable for almost any role in a party).

Their actual primary role is intended to vary based on their pact. Elemental pact is a blaster, Fiend pact debuffs, Divine pact supports allies, Celestial pact tanks, etc. So an avowed’s pact has a lot of bearing on what role they play in a party. Personally, I’ve been having a lot of fun with a couple incredibly slippery and fast “fake rogues” I’ve built for games I’m in using the Shadow pact.

I feel like the avowed lack some non-modulaton combat clauses. Aether swarm is a neat blast shape that wants you to direct a swarm while you use non blast effects. However, there are no least clauses that both take a standard action and I would want to use in combat. Compare to just the core the warlock:

Warlock non-blast combat effects:
Breath of the Night,
Darkness,
Earthen Grasp,
Miasmic Cloud,
Summon Swarm

The Avowed, by contrast only has Nightfall, and that mostly makes your friends sad and does not work against half the monsters in the game.

If you look through the clause list, you’ll find that each of those invocations actually [I]do exist in the avowed. Breath of the night and miasmic cloud were buffed and merged into pest control; earthen grasp was buffed and became fist of the sky (which, after playtesting and feedback, we’re moving to Least—hopefully that should help some), and summon swarm was transitioned to aether swarm, in order to present a similar, but actually-scaling option, rather than the level 1-2 game-breaker that stopped being worthwhile almost immediately.

We’re looking at adding more clauses in Avowed 2 and further, but I would think that there’s a decent amount of stuff to use.

After going over it again and again, I have not found any real balance points so far....but a point where the otherwise really good implementation of fluff is ...weird.

The Self pact. I simply love the fluff, just to say it again. You make a pact with yourself and gain Power from it. :)

I mean hearing the descriptive Fluff it should be the most customizeable pact of all ... and then you get a worse Monk.
Dont get me wrong, a Monk-Pact is cool and all, maybe call it "Fist Pact" or somesuch?^^, but the Self pact should be something wider, more customizeable (as I at least doubt that the Goal of ones SELF always is "hit guys hard with your fists!), that allows you to choose what to improve regarding your Self.

Maybe along the lines of gaining various resistances/Immunities and Attribute Boosts (permanent increases and Self buffing come to mind)?

Self pact has been quite a contentious topic. Some people love it, some don’t like it, and overall… Self pact is a particular ideal of “self,” not quite changing your body/boosting attributes/permanent self-buffing, but a very martial arts/wuxia-themed “self-perfection” concept. In a way, a better monk (they get a comparable flurry, much more useful effects, and thematic abilities to be a strong martial artist). It’s less “the goal of one’s self is to hit with your fists” and more “by perfecting yourself, you can murder people with your bare hands because your body’s just that perfect.”

Self pact is a specific implementation of the idea to support a more niche combat style and set of thematics, while what you seem to be looking at is more like the Aspirant archetype from Avowed 2, perhaps? Becoming greater than you were. Or possibly some other pact, refluffed to fit the themes you’re looking for. My suggestion would be to look at other pacts and see what fits your concepts, then mix fluff as you like.

And here’s some responses to comments from elsewhere, so we’ve got them all on hand for viewing and explaining the changelog today:

Steel’s Betrayal isn’t very good.paizo thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2twzb&page=3?Forrestfire-Studios-A-new-company-a-unique#116)

Indeed. We’ve altered how the feat functions, buffing it overall.

Aether barrage is really awkward if you’re secondary or tertiary-Cha.paizo thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2twzb&page=3?Forrestfire-Studios-A-new-company-a-unique#138)

Yeah it really is. We’re adjusting it to be +Dex or Cha to damage (or Dex|Str if you have Embodiment of Aether) to account for this.

As for the final benefit of Embodiment of Aether, does this effect stack additively (like normal game math, for 0%) or multiplicatively (for a total 25% cost) when an indebted creature dies and is raised with their soul gem?paizo thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2twzb&page=3?Forrestfire-Studios-A-new-company-a-unique#138)

Meant to be multiplicative. It’s been clarified.

The celestial pact's heavenly body ability and the blood of angels ability that replaces it for the Agathion subpact both grant 1/2 Con bonus as an increase to save DCs for pulses and clauses, but the bonus is a Sacred bonus for the base pact, and a direct application of the halved ability bonus to that DC for the subpact. Is this intentional?paizo thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2twzb&page=3?Forrestfire-Studios-A-new-company-a-unique#145)

Nope, not at all. We’ve changed the subpact to also be a sacred bonus.

meemaas

2017-02-07, 02:26 PM

Question. Looking at the Tinker archetype, I notice that the Aether Spark Shape doesn't have specified rules for a spell that affects an area but doesn't deal damage. Is that intentional, did I miss it, or is that an oversight?

You did miss my question in your extremely long post. Glad to see some updates. Going to have to comb through the changes to see the changes.

As a note, why did you take out the Clause swaps?

Edit: Misread that.

Forrestfire

2017-02-07, 02:28 PM

You did miss my question in your extremely long post. Glad to see some updates. Going to have to comb through the changes to see the changes.

As a note, why did you take out the Clause swaps?

Edit: Misread that.

Aha! That's intentional: as noted in aether spark ("if a wand's spell falls into none of the above categories, you cannot use your aether pulse alongside it with this shape") an AoE spell that doesn't deal damage just isn't applicable with the ability, mostly because those spells tend to be extremely varied and hard to future-proof for, regarding effects.

meemaas

2017-02-07, 02:33 PM

Aha! That's intentional: as noted in aether spark ("if a wand's spell falls into none of the above categories, you cannot use your aether pulse alongside it with this shape") an AoE spell that doesn't deal damage just isn't applicable with the ability, mostly because those spells tend to be extremely varied and hard to future-proof for, regarding effects.

Shame. I had dreams of dropping aoe debuff spells from wands. Guess I'll have to look into the single target debuffs instead. Thanks for the answer. For the life of me, I never noticed that line in the description.

On that note. The Tinker still says it swaps its Clause shape for Aether Spark at level 1. With the change you mentioned on Clause shapes, would that be delayed to level 2 too?

Roadie

2017-02-07, 02:47 PM

The change to 24-hour durations fixes the thing that felt a bit off/silly to me about those powers (especially the "you'll always want these turned on" buffs), so hurrah.

Any chance of a mini-archetype eventually that changes some or a bunch of stuff from (Sp) to (Su) with some kind of penalty included (slower CL scaling, slower clauses progression, or whatever)? I've noticed a fair number of people using the Avowed so far to represent differently-fluffed characters (dragons, kung fu guys, supernaturally effective warriors, etc) because of how flexible the class is, and it would be interesting to have a mechanical element to support characters using the same elements but that don't thematically go well with getting dispelled in combat.

Forrestfire

2017-02-07, 02:55 PM

Shame. I had dreams of dropping aoe debuff spells from wands. Guess I'll have to look into the single target debuffs instead. Thanks for the answer. For the life of me, I never noticed that line in the description.

On that note. The Tinker still says it swaps its Clause shape for Aether Spark at level 1. With the change you mentioned on Clause shapes, would that be delayed to level 2 too?

Yes, it should. I just uploaded a change to that to fix it.

The change to 24-hour durations fixes the thing that felt a bit off/silly to me about those powers (especially the "you'll always want these turned on" buffs), so hurrah.

Any chance of a mini-archetype eventually that changes some or a bunch of stuff from (Sp) to (Su) with some kind of penalty included (slower CL scaling, slower clauses progression, or whatever)? I've noticed a fair number of people using the Avowed so far to represent differently-fluffed characters (dragons, kung fu guys, supernaturally effective warriors, etc) because of how flexible the class is, and it would be interesting to have a mechanical element to support characters using the same elements but that don't thematically go well with getting dispelled in combat.

We don't have any plans of doing that; the SLA mechanics are fairly core to the balance of the class, and even when refluffing, it's just as easily arguable that, say, their particular brand of kung fu magic can be disrupted by another mage. We'll be discussing this in Avowed 2's SkyMarket section, which will be a guide to refluffing the avowed and its subsystem. It might be an idea we'll consider down the line, but I wouldn't count on it.

Kymera

2017-02-07, 04:48 PM

Feats: Steel's Betrayal: The problem with this feat is that it suffers from the same issue that makes Power Atttack underpowered, and making it more like Power Attack doesn't solve that. Yea, the damage bonus is a bit higher, but it's still trading attack bonus for an amount of damage proportional to the amount of attack bonus lost, with no other scaling. This still means that, on a feat that's purely a damage boost, and thus not even worth a look for non-strikers, the better striker you are, the worse deal this feat is. to fix that, it'll pretty much have to have some scaling that depends on how much other damage boosts the person has on that attack, to counteract the effective negative scaling that comes from those same boosts increasing the costs of each hit that is turned into a miss by the atk penalty.

Mezzaluna

2017-02-07, 05:23 PM

Great to see the new update!
A few things stand out to me about some of the Betrothed options, though.

Class Skills
Since there's no mention of any ability for the companion to get traits, getting extra class skills on the companion is a bit annoying, since you'll need the Additional Traits feat.
The Summoner's Eidolon has "In addition, at 1st level, the summoner can choose 4 additional skills to be class skills for his eidolon", could the Betrothed companion have something like that?

Old One Pact
1) Sacrificing HP to summon spawn leads to interesting risky gameplay, and later in the game could often bring about 'Avowed/Companion goes into the negatives and falls unconscious, then the spawn disappears after X rounds, and they heal and get back up'.
Is there any chance of being able to pre-emptively dismiss the spawn if you really need the healing? Or at least, have it automatically happen if you're about to die without it?

2) It's not entirely clear whether Spawn take penalties for shooting into melee without Precise Shot. Unless having the Precise Shot feat counts as 'an effect on you'?

3) This is a bit more of a gut feeling but I'm worried that vertigo being a poison effect will leave a lot of enemies immune to it by the time you get it at level 12.

Court Fey Pact
1) I... don't think that many clauses benefit from the spread effect of Glamour.
Center of Attention and Winding Woods already affect an area.
Create Friendship's 'Only one target under the effect at once' interacts very strangely.
Wall of Pain also interacts strangely.
Frightening Pulse, Maddening pulse, Scream, Slumber for Eternity are not explicitly mind-affecting/charm/compulsion and don't benefit (I think? If an effect that causes mental conditions is automatically mind-affecting I may be wrong here)

Bewitch and Roaring Pulse combo very well but on the whole most of the usable options come online quite late. When you first get the ability, Frightening Pulse may be the only thing at all it potentially works with.

2) It's a bit sad the Betrothed version of Court Fey doesn't get the ability to have enemies not realise you used mind-affecting effects on them, that was the most interesting part of Furtive Manipulator to me.

AlienFromBeyond

2017-02-07, 11:00 PM

You can still take the Natural Armor customization with Reshape Aspiration? Basically none of the other customizations will come close to it then, for a single feat you can get +6 natural armor to AC during aspiration form, and all the time if you take Impatient Transcendence. On top of that you can keep taking it again and again for another +6 if you so desire. Obviously touch attacks can still get you, but this still seems like a lot of value for one feat, especially if you have some way to apply natural armor to touch attacks (which I've seen but it might have been from a different 3pp).

MilleniaAntares

2017-02-08, 12:01 AM

Avowed 1:

Like the Aether Barrage change, plus the whole weapon shape thing.

Shame about removing Aether Circus, but at least Aether Swarm got a buff.

Aether Eruption is neat, better than the feat version.

Aether Grasp's change is also good!

Aether Swarm... the first selection says the swarm can be moved 15 feet, but the second says "instead of 10".

The third selection... can only be used in a turn after I spend a move action to maintain it, right? Or can I maintain as a standard action, deal the extra damage, and then use my move action for something else?

For the clauses, perhaps there's a tag you can use as a shorthand for "This is a permanent effect, though it can be dispelled as normal for a spell-like ability, and you can still dismiss it as a free action."

Eyes of Fate is rather neat!

I like the changes to the feats. Especially the buffs to Merciful Pulse and Spirit Swordsmanship!

Avowed 2:

Aspirant Elemental's Maelstrom class feature indicates "clause save DC", even though it is a pact ability.

Aether Well's third selection can be kinda... funky? In the sense that you will pretty much be setting off beams of every time you fight outdoors... Maybe some kind of height limit would be good? Or at least letting the avowed lower the maximum height.

The Artificer's Insight clause still uses the old 24 hour duration.

Trash Pulse is pretty funny...

For Aether Skirmisher, I forgot to add in Ride-by Attack to my suggestions... Just a thought!

Corona is neat! And also strange...

Also, what's with Extra Smite?

You can still take the Natural Armor customization with Reshape Aspiration? Basically none of the other customizations will come close to it then, for a single feat you can get +6 natural armor to AC during aspiration form, and all the time if you take Impatient Transcendence. On top of that you can keep taking it again and again for another +6 if you so desire. Obviously touch attacks can still get you, but this still seems like a [i]lot of value for one feat, especially if you have some way to apply natural armor to touch attacks (which I've seen but it might have been from a different 3pp).
Shifting feats can provide natural armor as part of one's touch DC, though I'm not sure of how the interaction will work... plus the work isn't published yet.

That said, perhaps each customization could only be taken once per feat?

AlienFromBeyond

2017-02-08, 02:54 AM

Shifting feats can provide natural armor as part of one's touch DC, though I'm not sure of how the interaction will work... plus the work isn't published yet.

That said, perhaps each customization could only be taken once per feat?
Even with taking it once that's still a double strength Improved Natural Armor that also lets you pick 2 other customizations. I think it needs to be excluded from the feat entirely just like Expertise is.

Might we see an initiating archetype for the Avowed similar to what we have for the Kineticist in the Roil Dancer? Or barring that, rules for Variant Multiclass of Avowed so we could build our own by taking it with an initiating class (or hell a Soulknife VMC Avowed could be really cool too!)?

khadgar567

2017-02-08, 03:00 AM

Love the sell your soul stuff but i think you can boost their abilities like using binded soul for knowledge or if its caster its spell casting abilities

Mithril Leaf

2017-02-08, 05:06 AM

Taveena

2017-02-08, 11:34 AM

Is there any particular reason that the amazing ability of Hellfire Talent needs to be locked behind the fluff of damnation feats? I have no issue with the crunch of paying multiple feats and being harder to raise, but it's really good and you can't take if it you are also good.

Because the release is themed around damnation and the results thereof - this was primarily intended as a spell-like counterpart to the Maleficium feat, as Avowed cannot benefit from that, rather than a universal improvement. If you want to play a Good character with this feat, then the Penitent has a racial trait which allows that.

Barstro

2017-02-08, 03:57 PM

This looks very interesting and I'm sure that several builds will enter my mind as I read this more.

At present, I am reading about Shapes and have a question;

Aether Retaliation;

3rd Selection: When you use the area-of-effect version of this shape, you can choose to affect everything within 10feet of you instead.
4th Selection: A creature hit by your aether retaliation (if you used it to attack) or that fails its Reflex save (if you used the area-of-effect version) is pushed 5 feet directly away from you by the energy.

What happens (4th Selection) if there is someone in melee who fails the save(A), but someone behind him who makes the save(B)?
1) Nothing, because there was as solid object preventing A from moving back?
2) New check against A with some sort of negative to be pushed through B?
3) New check against B, but with a negative on the save because B is effected by both Aether Retaliation AND A being pushed into him?
4) Something else?

KillingAScarab

2017-02-08, 10:28 PM

This looks very interesting and I'm sure that several builds will enter my mind as I read this more.

At present, I am reading about Shapes and have a question;

Aether Retaliation;

What happens (4th Selection) if there is someone in melee who fails the save(A), but someone behind him who makes the save(B)?
1) Nothing, because there was as solid object preventing A from moving back?
2) New check against A with some sort of negative to be pushed through B?
3) New check against B, but with a negative on the save because B is effected by both Aether Retaliation AND A being pushed into him?
4) Something else?I'm inclined to treat this like a bull rush combat maneuver. Target A could potentially be pushed even with target B, but target B must also be pushed and there would be a check of some sort with a modifier to make it less likely to move target B out of the way. Movement into a solid object or obstacle would be disallowed, though if I was feeling very D&D 4th edition that day, perhaps damage equal to a ten foot fall could be rolled for the collision.

meemaas

2017-02-08, 10:59 PM

In regards to Aether Channel, I'm sure I'm reading it right, but I can be hopeful otherwise. If say, you're making a full attack with a weapon, and adding a bite attack (such as from race), is every attack cut to half your Aether Pulse damage, or just the bite? I'm hoping it was intended to be just the bite, because otherwise, natural attacks are completely pointless to use with it at any level.

MilleniaAntares

2017-02-08, 11:56 PM

Sayt

2017-02-09, 12:02 AM

Only the secondary natural attacks have their damage halved.
Don't natural weapons become secondary when used in conjunction with manufactured weapons?

AlienFromBeyond

2017-02-09, 05:08 AM

For the Old One Pact and specifically the Attunment ability, it says "If you use an ability score other than Constitution to determine your hit points, you also use that ability score instead of Constitution to determine the healing gained." If you use Charisma to determine your hit points, would Embodiment of Aether then let you use Strength instead if you wanted?

Forrestfire

2017-02-09, 10:46 AM

Only the secondary natural attacks have their damage halved.

It very definitely hits the whole aether channel with the halving. At early and mid levels, the extra damage (and debuff chance/proc) from the natural weapon will often be enough to make up for that, and at later levels, one focusing on natural weapons will likely want to invest in getting more of them.

Also, I've just uploaded a new version of the Avowed 1 doc; only one change this time except some grammar fixes: Aether Duelist no longer halves ability modifiers to damage with the avowed's main hand aether blade and aether barrage. We feel we overnerfed that and wanted to put that buff in place so people aren't out of luck with TWF until the next larger push.

Will post a larger response to more peoples' concerns in a bit, hopefully.

meemaas

2017-02-09, 10:53 AM

Well. That is kinda disappointing. I'm working on a self pact Avowed with the Vampire template from Lords of the Night and was trying to figure out if it would even be worth it to use the natural weapons granted. That puts it very clearly into the not worth it pile

Nyaa

2017-02-09, 12:37 PM

Self pact avowed already have more than enough extra attacks imo. One from pact at level 1, one from aether channel at 4, and another one from pact at 8.

Grand Arbiter

2017-02-10, 12:23 AM

I'm going applying for a PBP game with an Avowed, (which is totally awesome by the way), and wanted to ask if I may post the sheet here? I'd appreciate help to make sure I don't make a mess of it.

AlienFromBeyond

2017-02-10, 03:38 AM

Is there something I'm missing about the Elemental Pact ability Elemental Ally that makes it worth using? Effectively doing a slam +9 (1d8+7) with an Earth Elemental as a swift action at level 12 is absolute garbage, it needs 15+ to hit basically anything of equal CR for crap damage. On top of that it can't do any other actions so can't do AoOs or anything useful, and this just gets worse as you level and can summon bigger elementals. No enemy should even bother attacking them because they're zero threat, the most they can end up doing is getting in the way, and for one turn of one enemy at most. Almost anything else is a better use of your swift action.

Kaidinah

2017-02-10, 05:08 AM

Sayt

2017-02-10, 06:06 AM

Y'know, looking at it, the Celestial pact could combo quite well with the Holy Vindicator PRC, I'm just not sure how well/even if it's possible to get it working.

AlienFromBeyond

2017-02-10, 01:01 PM

I think part of its usefulness is that you can drop a flanking elemental anywhere you (or your party) might need it. Still a little situational, but there are certain parties that would really appreciate this.
For a level 12 ability that seems incredibly underwhelming.

MilleniaAntares

2017-02-11, 02:33 AM

The stutter step greater clause is incorrectly marked as a zone. Perhaps this was intended for the adjacent tar trap?

Edit: Looking at aether retaliation... it seems a bit limited to me. Perhaps instead of just melee attacks, how about any offensive action (melee attack, ranged attack, spell) made against the avowed within 5 ft? With, perhaps, an increase to 10 ft from a higher selection?

Edit #2: The fiend aspirant soul gyre's soul-stealing limitation is a bit funky. Perhaps that can be extended to all creatures killed within range, while keeping the mechanical benefits to those over 1/2 the aspirant's HD?

Also, do the soul-stealing abilities work on summoned creatures?

Mezzaluna

2017-02-15, 01:18 AM

The Divine Pact's 8th level ability has been bugging me for quite a while, because of how many trap options there are among blessings (and how many of the 1st level ones rapidly fall off in usefulness), so I've looked over it properly and ranked all of them with the knowledge they come online at level 8 and are at-will.

Full details are here:
(Only looked at the pfsrd entries, I hear Healer's Handbook had some nice ones)

===Pretty good
Charm/Glory: Good, permanent sanctuary. Fairly strong defense if used well, but enemies might make the save too easily later on.
Knowledge: Touch creature, instantly gain knowledge of them. Very good utility, particularly for out of combat or intrigue campaigns.
Liberation: Swift action freedom of movement on self for one round.
Luck: Can get a bit silly out of combat, letting all your allies double roll on every skill check. Probably the strongest choice.
Plant: Swift action to try and entangle opponent hit in melee, at-will.
Trickery: Move action for one mirror image.

===Safely Useful but very unexciting for a level 8 pact ability:
Air: Ranged weapon ignores range increments, makes ranged attacks with no AoO. There's likely a ranged attacker somewhere in your party.
Animal: Decent, gain a natural attack or two, give to the full attacker.
Darkness: Concealment is good, but this is roughly equivalent to Shadow Pact's level 4 ability, except it can be loaned out.
Death: Minor numerical buffs on intimidate and some saves.
Destruction: Scaling 1/2 level permanent weapon damage buff to one ally.
Nobility: +2 on attack, skill or saves on one ally.
Protection: +1 bonus to your own saves and AC, scales very slowly.
Strength: Scaling 1/2 level bonus to your attack rolls if you spend a swift action, and other strength checks.
War: Probably just a permanent +10ft land speed to one ally, other choices are nonscaling +1s

===Situationally Useful
Curse: Open up a battle with a free potential -2 debuff on one struck enemy if they fail a save.
Healing: Free empower on healing spells /you/ cast. Only good for using wands out of battle to reduce attrition, unless you want to multiclass out after 8 levels in avowed.
Madness: Hard to judge. Turn cowered/frightened/panicked/paralyzed enemies against their allies for one round. Very dependent on how well the rest of your party can inflict this.
Repose: Melee touch attack to no-save stagger for one round. If already staggered, no-save sleep one round.
Void: Melee touch to stop opponent speaking for 1 round with no save, staggered on failed save.

===Rarely Useful
Artifice: One weapon can bypass hardness and DR vs constructs and objects. Outclassed by resonance pulse unless you fight many constructs.
Chaotic/Evil/Good/Law: +1d6 vs opposite alignment, aligns weapon to bypass DR
Community: Increase Aid Another to +4. Not very good outside of skill checks or niche builds (Or allowing Zealots)
Rune: Create a trap of 1d6+1/2 level damage in a square.

===Mostly Useless
Earth/Fire/Water/Weather: +1d4 elemental damage on one weapon, never scales.
Magic: CHA to attack on a single ranged attack as standard action.
Scalykind: 1 ally gains 1 +1 natural armor per 5 levels.
Sun: (No action listed?) Blinds enemy for one round on failed save. Strictly worse than Solar Pulse modulation.
Travel: Ignore difficult terrain for 1 round with your swift. Strictly worse than the spider climb modulation.

But the gist is that out of these thirty six domains, only sixteen are generally useful at all, and out of those sixteen I'd only call seven of them fun or interesting enough to be worth it as an 8th level ability. (Luck might even be a bit too strong as an at-will for out of combat.)

All the other divine pact abilities are good, but I feel it's a definite mark against its appeal for any campaign that expects to hit level 8 but not 12.
Your domain choice also affects your sense and attunement, but since those features define how you interact with choices mainly made by the GM or other party members rather than yourself, it would personally factor much less into my choice of domains than the blessings, outside of maybe a Tinker Divine Avowed loading up on specific wands.
It feels like at the moment either you're pigeonholed into one of the few fun domains, or you settle for having a very unexciting level 8 empowerment.

Edit: Completely unrelated question about the Personal Gravity clause -
"You can adjust your frame of reference and how gravity affects you. While this doesn't allow you to fly, you become incredibly light, allowing you to walk on top of difficult terrain, ignoring it completely."

It's not that clear how much of this is fluff and how much is mechanics.
1) Are you lighter for the purposes of say, someone trying to lift you, or walking along thin tree branches?
2) The implication is you ignore difficult terrain because you can effortlessly walk over it: but how does this interact with the Airspace Control clause, which literally makes the air get in your way, or similar effects which have you treat things as difficult terrain because of some supernatural effect rather than the physical condition of the ground?

MilleniaAntares

2017-02-21, 11:07 PM

Any thoughts on a Mount (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mount/)-like or Phantom Steed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantom-steed/)-like clause? Could be useful for overland travel and non-betrothed mounted combat!

Sayt

2017-02-21, 11:10 PM

MilleniaAntares

2017-02-22, 01:51 AM

As may have been passed on in IRC, some people aren't sure whether Fist of the Sky's effect can apply off the ground. Perhaps some clarification could be provided?

Personally I think it's obvious that the hand is just a representation of the spell's effect and not a creature, but...

Edit: for problems with Aether Channel/Rounds, I was thinking that perhaps the abilities could benefit from sort of limitation.

Possibilities:

Applies to up to X attacks, dependent on avowed (caster) level. This means the character can use as many weapons as they wish and remain within an acceptable range, while any extra attacks add a smaller amount to DPR. The problem is the variables with expected attacks, given the existence of flurry, TWFing, a hasted attack, and AoOs. Part of this may be helped with Aether Duelist getting an additional function of "do X attacks at full strength, or do X+Y attacks at half strength" and Mystic Reflexes applying the channel boost to AoOs or attacks made outside of your turn.

Applies to one weapon at full strength, or two weapons at half strength. That way the guy who wanted to add bites to his full-attack routine could get full damage Aether Channel with his main weapon, while getting to add in a bite and not have it be a DPR loss.

Applies a static penalty based upon number of weapons used. -2 dice for two weapons, -4 dice for three weapons, or something like that.

MilleniaAntares

2017-02-28, 01:51 AM

So on Pathfinder General in 4chan's traditional games board, mention was made of the betrothed getting to be too strong in the damage dealing department.

My suggestion is as follows:

Because the betrothed and her companion share the same power, in a any round that a creature is affected by an effect originating from the betrothed, that creature automatically succeeds on saving throws against the companion’s abilities and effects (and vice-versa). This includes abilities both from the avowed class and other classes, as well as feats and item effects, but does not apply to pulse shapes, the betrothed’s pact empowerments, or the companion’s idealization choices.
In this section, include a note about a foe taking 1/2 damage from the second of the betrothed/companion who uses an aether pulse on a particular opponent. So if a level 3 Bob the Betrothed uses an unshaped aether pulse, he'll deal 2d4 damage to an orc; if Charlene the Companion then uses aether pulse, then she'll deal 1d4 damage to the same orc, or 2d4 if it's another enemy.

If they focus a single target in that scenario, they'll end up doing 3d4 damage (7.5 average), as opposed to a regular avowed doing 2d8 (9 avg), or a transformed aspirant (2d8+2; avg 11).

If you think this nerfs betrothed single target damage too much, then allow something similar to the betrothed descriptor:

Clauses (Sp): Some clauses gained by a betrothed thanks to their pact have the “betrothed” descriptor. These clauses function like normal clauses, except that both the betrothed and her companion must take the actions simultaneously in order to cast them (its effect only happens once), and if the effect requires concentration, both must spend the actions to concentrate. If either of them fail a concentration check to maintain concentration on a betrothed effect, the effect loses the betrothed descriptor until the beginning of their next turn, at which point they may begin concentrating on the effect again as though they had not been interrupted. [snip] A betrothed and her companion can voluntarily add the betrothed descriptor to a clause by casting it in concert, so long as both the companion and the betrothed are in a valid position to use the effect (range, line of effect, and so on). Only one of them needs to be able to perceive the target or area, and the higher of their clause save DCs is used.

Only in the case of aether pulses, it would increase their damage to d8s. That way single target damage will be on par with an avowed, but not be capable of getting too high.

Also, you may wish to limit Overpower Modulation to one use per round.

Of course, math needs to be done in the case of more complicated shapes, particularly the weapon shapes where static modifiers can skew the proportional damage between betrothed and avowed.

---

As an aside: "However, this power he’s gained comes at a price; when he is not in his aspiration form, he takes a –2 penalty to the save DCs of his avowed class features (including aether pulses, clauses, and pact abilities) except shapes"

This seems contradictory. Wouldn't shapes be included in aether pulses?

According to the #pfg channel, you intend for the penalty to apply to modulations but not shapes, so I'd recommend specifying modulations instead of the generic "aether pulses".

Forrestfire

2017-02-28, 07:53 PM

We are aware of the betrothed's issues, and currently discussing how best to solve that, along with other updates for the Avowed 2 playtest. Thanks for posting about it here, though, it's a lot easier to fetch XD

Tonight, though, we've got an update for the Avowed 1 pdf (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg); there's a couple major adjustments being made to a few options, which I'll detail in this spoiler:

There's three big adjustments being made to the player options in this update: Self Pact has been revised a bit, Aether Channel has been tuned down some, and Overcharge Modulation has been nerfed.

Self Pact: Punching and dipping a bit too hard.

Self pact is, overall, a very strong striker package for characters—too strong, originally, thanks to the power of extra attacks combined with aether channel. The way the bonus unarmed strikes worked also locked them into aether channel, generally with just unarmed strikes, which wasn't ideal. Finally, the strong +Cha as an AC bonus made it a phenomenal dip for anyone looking to punch things, which wasn't, strictly, the intended result. The other attunements scale on class level, this one didn't.

So, the changes made to the Self Pact are aimed to combat these things and bring it down to match similar pacts. Their bonus unarmed strike attacks have been changed—instead of dealing 1d3+Str (+other bonuses+aether channel+magic, etc), they now have a scaling damage roll. The bonus unarmed strike in the attunement, as well as the one from Strength of Body, deal your aether pulse's base damage on a successful hit, without any bonuses (or penalties) being applied. This way, it's basically an extra group of debuff procs (if using aether channel), and consistent bonus damage across any playstyle of melee avowed, rather than being overwhelmingly good with aether channel and awful with everything else. The bonus unarmed strikes from the Self pact also don't reduce your bonus damage to other attacks when using aether channel, though, so it'll be worth using regardless.

On the note of the dips, the Self pact's attunement has been adjusted. The armor bonus it gives is now limited to 3 + your class level, which will scale up quickly for people who're focusing Cha and taking levels, but only be about as good as a chain shirt otherwise.

Aether Channel: BAB substitution caused problems.

This nerf is some news that I'm really sad to give. The aether channel BAB substitution was the first part of channel that got written, but in the end, it's contributed to some major issues with balancing its average and potential damage. We've replaced the second rank of aether channel with a similar bonus to attacks (a scaling enhancement bonus ala greater magic weapon), which should hopefully bring aether channel's explosive pouncecharge potential down to the levels we were intending for it.

Overcharge Modulation: Too much damage.

The Overcharge Modulation feat has been reworked thanks to remathing how it interacted with the weapon shapes; it now adds a scaling number of damage dice to your aether pulse, rather than applying a free Empower SLA to the ability. It no longer requires Empower Spell-Like Ability, and functions alongside it, but the general damage that the feat adds will be lower. This change doesn't mean a lot for the AoE shapes, though. They didn't get a lot of bonuses to not multiply, so they're still hitting pretty hard with it.

If you want to skip that and just know the changelog, that's here:

Pacts

Elemental pact attunement now stacks with your existing resistance.
Elemental pact’s Elemental Ally ability no longer gives you the subtype (generally redundant or actually a downside), and the summoned elemental gets your Cha bonus to its attack roll to keep it relevant.
Dragon pact’s 4th and 8th-level ability have had their order swapped, and Dragon pact’s shapeshifting no longer changes ability scores.
Nation pact's 4th-level ability has been adjusted to be a more leadery buff for allies.
Self pact’s Cha-to-AC capped at 3 + level to make it less of an attractive dip.
Self pact’s unarmed strikes have been revised to not strike as overwhelmingly hard, but also to not halve aether channel damage for other weapons.

Clauses and Shapes

A note on how bonuses and Empower SLA work with weapon shapes has been added.
Aether channel has had its rules for using multiple weapons tightened and clarified, and its second rank now has a different effect.
Aether grasp now adds to CMD when using it.
Aether retaliation now notes what happens if you push someone into something (they don’t get pushed).
Fist of the sky now notes that it can be used in the air.
Insectile transformation no longer adjusts ability scores, nor does it adjust size bonuses or penalties to attacks, AC, CMB, and CMD.

Feats

Embodiment of Aether now notes that it works for avowed bonus feats too.
Overcharge Modulation has been adjusted; this is overall a bit of a nerf, but a necessary one—the effect dealt way more damage than was workable.
Pactbound Guardian notes what happens now if you already had a familiar (it stacks levels and upgrades the other one)
Other
Avowed save DCs properly list caster level instead of class level for their scaling. This was intended to be a thing a while ago, but it wasn’t added in.
Atstreidi, Eiremian, and Ethumion FCBs added.
The Path of War rules notes have been moved to the apprendix; this section will be expanded later—for now, it’s just the iaijutsu stuff.

MilleniaAntares

2017-02-28, 11:42 PM

Forrestfire

2017-03-01, 01:00 AM

That I did. Just added it to the changelog, my bad.

Nyaa

2017-03-01, 07:46 AM

Shouldn't aether channel second selection stack with existing enhancement bonus, like aether rampage's one?

meemaas

2017-03-01, 07:49 AM

Shouldn't aether channel second selection stack with existing enhancement bonus, like aether rampage's one?

It's does. It's stated to be Greater Magic Weapon, which by default stacks with existing enhancement bonuses.

Forrestfire

2017-03-01, 09:16 AM

Greater magic weapon overlaps with, rather than stacking with, existing enhancement bonuses. Aether rampage is a unique, powerful ability, while the aether channel equivalent is slightly weaker to account for the fact that channel has a lot more potential damage.

meemaas

2017-03-01, 09:22 AM

Forrestfire

2017-03-01, 09:25 AM

meemaas

2017-03-01, 09:35 AM

Basically, the adjusted aether channel fills the role of "you know those effects I normally needed to go to wizards for? Yeah, I got it covered."

Greater magic weapon to keep your enhancement bonus up and allow you to focus on more interesting magic weapons than +X, and haste for the attacks.

Yea I see that. Love the changes to Self pact now. I was on the fence when I first read them, but it really makes it easier to use a shape that isn't Channel with unarmed strikes

Question. Say I have Hellfire Talent. Does that still apply to the damage of the bonus attacks from Self Pact, or is it strict dice and nothing else?

Forrestfire

2017-03-01, 09:38 AM

Self pact's bonus punches are strictly dice and nothing else.

meemaas

2017-03-01, 09:41 AM

Self pact's bonus punches are strictly dice and nothing else.

Good. Wanted to be sure I got that right. Working on an Avowed for a high level campaign and want to get everything right.

My friends think it's my favorite class because this is the third one I've brought to the table.

And I have a fourth in the concept stage to upgrade my Tibbit Dragon fire Adept to a new level.

Nyaa

2017-03-01, 12:40 PM

Greater magic weapon to keep your enhancement bonus up and allow you to focus on more interesting magic weapons than +X

It sounds good in theory if you have access to magic mart or crafter, but I don't think it's the case in all groups and campaigns. Maybe give it a whitelist of weapon special properties that can be bought with bonuses, like divine bond?

Forrestfire

2017-03-01, 01:14 PM

So... After some discussion about intuitivity and ease of use issues introduced by this, we're actually changing it to a +1 increase of enhancement bonus per 4 CLs (minimum +1), capping at +5. In the next update, when that happens.

upho

2017-03-01, 02:09 PM

I'm a bit concerned with the low DC of the 16th level Flee ability of the Old One pact and the very large boost to save DCs the Embodiment of Aether feat may grant.

Flee Unlike all other pact empowerments AFAICT, Flee is stuck with a DC that isn't likely to work against anything of a CR equal to or higher than your level with a good Will save progression, even when you've increased the DC as far you realistically can (as single-classed). At 16th level, the typical default save DC for this ability when it's gained will be 27 (10 + 8 level + 9 Cha), while the supposedly average Will save of a CR 16 monster with good progression is +19, resulting in a 35% success chance. And against an average CR 19 monster (a challenging opponent according to guidelines), that success chance is instead only 25%. By taking the Ability Focus (pact abilities) feat, these success chances can be increased to 45% and 35% respectively, but after that it seems the only option to improve these chances is finding some reliable means to debuff your target(s) prior to using the ability. Note also that this does not account for the +3 bonus targets immune to mind-affecting receive, nor any of the many other abilities high CR monsters frequently have which may decrease the chances of success.

Let's say you're a 16th level avowed with this pact, and that you've invested substantial resources into your capability to demoralize your opponents in combat. For example, you could have the ability to demoralize an opponent you damage as a free action (Black Seraph's Glare gained via Martial Training) together with several highly accurate attacks/round (Spirited Swordsmanship, Aether Rounds, use guns, ranged combat feats), the ability to increase fear effects with multiple demoralize successes (Soulless Gaze, other damnation feat), a very high Intimidate skill bonus, and the ability to sicken scared opponents you hit (Cruel Weapon). If you spend your first turn attacking an "average" CR 16 enemy within 30', it's highly likely that enemy will be frightened and sickened when your turn ends and your Flee ability is activated. So if you also have the Ability Focus feat, the success probability of your Flee ability would be 65% at best (or max 55% vs a CR 19 monster).

In conclusion, unless I've missed something vital here, I find the default DC as and especially the sole in-class option to increase it to be lacking. Was this intentional, and if so, why?

Embodiment of Aether An avowed with this feat can boost all save DCs through the roof just by dipping a few levels into other classes, getting a few feats and/or an item or two, as Str is by far the most easily increased ability score. For example, by 18th level the Flee ability of the above avowed with the Old One pact could instead easily have a DC of at least 35 (10 + 8 level + 17 Str) in every round of most combats during a typical adventuring day, giving him at least a 70% success chance against an average CR 18 enemy (55% vs CR 21), or a maximum success chance of 100% (85%) if using the same demoralization combo as above. And this would most likely be the lowest DC ability this "muscle-vowed" has. (Now imagine if this was a grendle with the Imperious Bearing ART... :smalleek:)

In conclusion, I don't think the Embodiment of Aether feat should grant unrestricted and complete replacement of the default Cha dependence, since a Str mod can be boosted to be about twice as high as a Cha mod even for a PC with all but two levels in the avowed. Or was this difference between Cha and Str taken into account and deemed acceptable when you designed the feat, and if so, what was the rationale behind it?

MilleniaAntares

2017-03-03, 02:13 AM

Some upcoming changes were posted on 4chan (https://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/51988272#p51989611), but not on here, so... here's hoping I don't get yelled at!

Hey, guys. After some fairly intense internal discussion, Forrest and I have sadly decided that Spirited Swordsmanship is going to be cut. It made the class far too single-attribute dependent, especially when combined with all the other things Charisma can be added to with further feat support. We know this is going to suck for a lot of people, and we, personally, were huge fans of the SAD playstyle, but it's proven to be impossible to balance. This should also make Self pact slightly less overwhelming, as they'll need to split their resources between their attacking/damaging stat and their casting/defensive stat, even with Altered Life.
Related to this, Aether Grasp will now be finessable, so as to avoid an unnecessary feat tax for dexterity builds wanting to dabble in it.

Further, we'll be reducing their damage dice to d6, like the Warlock, to try to rein in their numbers a bit. This also serves to weaken Overcharge Modulation and Merciful Pulse appropriately. How this will interact with Aspirant and Betrothed, we're not yet certain - but for reasons brought up earlier, we won't be reducing the damage dice to the awfully hard to acquire d3. We'll let you know what we work out, but we won't push this update live until we've sorted that out.

Finally, we'll be removing Steel's Betrayal for now from the document. While we love the concept, and hope to introduce something similar in the future, its current form is effectively damage with no penalty.

We're still discussing a lot of other changes, and these are all in flux - and thus, ripe for feedback. As always, we thank you for your feedback, and we are earnestly sorry for any builds we will be disrupting with these balance changes.

Yes. In fact, we'll be buffing Heart of Aether to additionally add your Constitution modifier to Spellcraft, Knowledge (Planes), and Knowledge (Arcana), to compete with Charisma's bonus to social skills.

And because I'm an idiot who forgot to include it, Embodiment of Aether is also being removed for the same reason.

As Heart of Magic only added Constitution to damage rolls with Spirited Swordsmanship, with Spirited Swordsmanship's removal you can no longer add Charisma or Constitution to attack rolls with the Avowed.

... You're entirely right. I'm sorry, I was misremembering my own feat entirely.

Heart of Aether will be rewritten to affect saving throw DCs and give a bonus to the aforementioned skills. Heart of Magic will not be changing. I'm really sorry for the mistake. ><

The changes are not implemented in the Avowed 2 page, at least.

I had an idea for turning Embodiment of Aether as an alternate class feature, which I'll include here on the off-chance it's worth bringing back:

The ACF would trade out charisma for strength, vocal components for somatic, and a new weakness: status effects that reduce the avowed's attack (such as shaken, sickened, etc) would also reduce their AC, as the innate magic needs to be directed precisely by movements.

I figure that perhaps adding in easily exploitable weaknesses would help out with overcoming SAD, but who knows if that's worth doing at this point in time.

Forrestfire

2017-03-03, 03:12 AM

Hah, whoops. Was going to post up here in a larger update tomorrow, but that works too. We have not implemented any changes yet; we still have a decent amount of design discussions and mathing to do before anything goes live.

meemaas

2017-03-03, 10:58 AM

Dgrin

2017-03-03, 02:33 PM

It's a good thing that Spirited Swordsmanship was cut, with it Avowed faced the same problem as old Harbringer - being nearly entirely SAD. I actually wanted to say exactly this to you. I've made an Devil Pact Avowed NPC for my players to fight last session, and found the class really interesting but a bit too strong for my tastes, and I believe SS was one of the main reasons for that. But I can tell that my players really liked the feeling they got from this guy, even not knowing the specifics about how he mechanically worked.

Overall, I really love the class, and will continue watching it closely. I always liked 3.5 Warlock, and Avowed has a really similar while being more interesting, at least for me. I haven't really tinkered with the class much yet, I've only made one character for whom I've had a clear concept in my mind, and due to time constraints, I am unlikely to really test it in the nearest future. All I have to say now is that I've enjoyed making the character and enjoyed playing him, even if only for a single fight. Maybe I'll get to some kind of running the numbers and making a write-up on the class when I have more free time but for now I can only offer my first impressions.

As a side note, I really like the concept of Damnation feats, hopefully we'll see more of those, especially some that are less Avowed-specific.

Forrestfire

2017-03-05, 02:39 AM

Aaaaand here we have a rather large update, involving a lot of changes to the basic framework that avowed optimization runs on. So without further ado, let's get down to business:

Pacts

Celestial pact 4th no longer adds a bonus to save DCs.
Court Fey pact’s Fetch clause now notes what memories they have.
Nation pact 4th now has a clarification on what happens if the allies leave your range.
Nation pact 16th has been buffed significantly, since it was previously rather minor.
Self pact attunement has been reworked; it now gains some scaling benefits instead of the AC bonus.

Clauses and Shapes

”Area Shape” is now a tag on some shapes; it means they get more damage (0.5 Cha bonus per selection).
Aether Blast’s area has been upped by 5 at all levels (undoing a nerf we’d tried).
Both Aether Channel and Aether Rounds have been reworked slightly. Their rank 1 effect is now a damage substitution, and the rank 3 effects now add the full damage.
Aether Grasp now allows you to use Dex with it if you have Weapon Finesse (rather than requiring Agile Maneuvers, though that feat will be useful to boost the rest of your combat maneuvers).
Aether Wrath is now medium-range at all ranks, and has a new rank 3 and 4.
Fly on the Wall has had its Stealth bonus adjusted to properly include its size.

Feats

Embodiment of Aether, Spirited Swordsmanship, and Steel’s Betrayal have been removed. They may return in another form later, but right now they’re no longer a thing.
Aetheric Armor’s prerequisite is now Str 17, and it has a different, scaling secondary benefit.
Merciful Pulse has been revised. Instead of increasing damage, it adds to save DC when trying to be merciful.
Overcharge Modulation requires avowed 3 to take now.

Other

The avowed’s aether pulse now deals damage in d6s instead of d8s.
Tinkers can’t get free material component spells anymore when swapping wand spells.
Balefire Infusion is now element-agnostic.

Aspirant

Dragon and Otyugh pacts added.

Betrothed

Celestial and Divine pacts added.
Betrothed and companion aether pulses have been revised significantly.
Companions can now pick different shapes than their avowed.
Companions now get max HP at their first hit die.
A bunch of the companions’ customizations now make some of the supernatural effects you can get as an avowed extraordinary. For example, wings will make a companion’s flight Ex, since it owes to their form, not their magic.

Clauses and Shapes

Aether Beast and the new Aether Circus have been added.
Five new modulations have been added.

Feats

Aether Detonation, Aether Hive, and Aether Queen, Legalistic, and Split Loyalties feats added.
Hellfire Talent’s bonus damage has been nerfed.
The Heart of Aether feat has been removed, and Heart of Magic is now accompanied by a new feat called Body of the Ancients.
Of Two Minds now works for creatures gotten through feats (like a Pactbound Guardian).

Embodiment of Aether and Spirited Swordsmanship removed – We’re sad too, but the avowed no longer is.

The biggest changes you’ll see in the new pdf is that the SAD options are gone. After a lot of feedback and discussion, we’ve decided that this is, overall, contributing to major balance problems with the class, and that it can’t exist in this form. Weapon shape-using avowed will need to go dual stat (Physical + Mental, tertiary Constitution), and “caster” avowed can still be basically SAD (Cha-focused, but less overall damage and more a focus on debuffs, utility, and the like). We believe that the current interaction between modulations and weapon shapes will help soften that blow and keep it playable, while bringing the avowed down somewhat to a more balanced level.

Another thing to note is that Self pact has lost its Cha to AC. We found it to be too good of a boost, and so, they’ll just need to get a chain shirt or something.

Heart of Constitution – Fortuitously, this remains.

Heart of Aether has been removed, and the new feat Body of the Ancients exists to fill a similar niche. With two feats, an avowed can change their casting stat fully to Constitution from Charisma, but they can’t run attacks and damage off of it.

d6s, Overcharge Modulation, Merciful Pulse, and Channel/Rounds – Damage reductions.

Next up, you’ll notice that we’ve tuned down the damage of the avowed’s options, particularly Overcharge Modulation and Merciful Pulse, and aether pulses as a whole. Merciful Pulse now has a different effect—rather than bonus damage, it ups your save DC when attacking nonlethally. Overcharge Modulation also has a minimum level on it (3), to keep it from unbalancing low levels.

Aether Channel and Aether Rounds have also had some adjustments—the base shapes no longer add bonus damage, instead giving something similar to the warpriest’s Sacred Weapon ability. We want Aether Channel to be less dippable, while still being useful, so at low levels, it’ll mean you hit with magic and overcome magical DR/apply debuffs, and at higher levels, it still adds the damage it did before. We’ve also changed the way the multiweapon halving works to be more intuitive, and allow mixed weapons without screwing you too hard on the main hand.

Betrothed pulse adjustments – More damage reductions.
The betrothed has an issue: it’s working as intended, but we still missed the mark a bit on its damage. We want the archetype to be a sidegrade, not an upgrade. It’s an archetype, so it should be a change in playstyle rather than a straight boost to the avowed, and right now, it was working as a boost to the avowed’s damage capabilities.

We’ve adjusted how betrothed aether pulses work to bring them down to par a bit; this doesn’t affect AoE users might at all, but will nerf weapon and barrage shapes a bit.

Other changes – Some other stuff.

The rest of the documents have been changed around the above adjustments, as well as small tweaks, such as to Nation pact’s 16th (a buff), Celestial pact’s 4th (a nerf), and a bunch of new stuff added into Avowed 2.

As always, we hope you enjoy, and look forward to your feedback.

The Avowed 1 pdf can be found at this link. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg)

The Avowed 2 document can be found here. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLIgc/edit?usp=sharing)

MilleniaAntares

2017-03-05, 04:13 AM

Thanks a lot for the changes, some were sad but necessary!

Avowed 1:

Merciful Pulse doesn't necessarily specify that a clause has to be able to deal damage to benefit from the DC. Might be worth specifying?

Some comments for Avowed 2:

Aspirant

Aspirant's Aether Pulse doesn't seem all too different, besides the nerf to d6 from d8.

Otyugh aspirant's Share pact ability references clause DCs. For consistency's sake I think it should use pact DC... then again, the base Filth Absorption uses Aether Pulse DC and the betrothed's Sharing and Caring uses the original DC... I guess inconsistency is consistent with these abilities?

Betrothed

Betrothed's Aether Pulse, on the other hand, looks really changed! I figured you'd be saving the damage dice nerf for the theoretical PoW archetype.

"In any round that the betrothed’s companion uses a modulation clause with their aether pulse, the betrothed can only use the same modulation with her own aether pulses."

You may wish to add in a "vice-versa" to this text.

Divine betrothed do not have a listed shape. If you can't decide, might I recommend, "Base Form: Any"?

Growth and Miniscule have been updated and I didn't notice until now! These customizations, while appreciated, don't seem to have level limitations on how many times you can take them, which means the companion can get really big/small really quickly. While certainly the most problematic aspects are gone (typically the stat changes), you might not want to allow a huge companion at level 1.

Also, Firefox says miniscule should be spelled as minuscule.

Additional Legs says the companion that takes it becomes a quadruped... which makes sense if a humanoid takes it. However, the image of an amorphous being with two legs - or a snake being with two legs - being treated as a quadruped is kinda... funny? Weird? Maybe it should specify that if the companion gets four legs it's treated as a quadruped.

Shapes

Aether Beast's attack deals aether pulse + strength damage. Is it intended for the damage to not change if Deadly Ability is gotten? Looks good otherwise.

Aether Circus: "A creature or object can make a Reflex save to avowed taking damage from"

You probably mean "avoid".

Feats

Aether Hive has perfect flavor text. Never change.

Split Loyalty should specify whether or not the companion gains the benefits of the second pact or not.

The Miniscule customization is not on the Reshape Aspiration blacklist. Is this intentional?

Forrestfire

2017-03-08, 02:12 AM

So, today we have another update, this time some small tweaks to wording and balance in some places, and a total rework of how the skill-boosting clauses function.

Here are the changelogs for A1 and A2:

Pacts

Court Fey pact’s attunement now has a sneak attack-lite effect, to help them fulfil their striker role.
Court Fey pact sense can sense through walls now.
Dragon pact has new stuff added to its attunement, to make it worthwhile compared to other pacts’ attunements.
Elemental pact has gotten a fairly big rework. Consolation Flare was moved to level 1, becoming the bulk of the pact’s attunement, since previously, that ability was basically negligible (and vanished at level 12…). The effect also now works on missed aether pulse attacks, but still only 1/round per enemy. In addition, the pact has a new 8th-level ability, No Escape, that allows them to reliably affect some of the more evasive enemies they may face.

Clauses and Shapes

Aether Channel and Rounds note that when using their first rank with Vital Strike/critical hits/etc, it uses the weapon’s original base damage.
Aether Swarm’s second rank properly doubles its speed now.
The skill booster clauses have been changed (see the discussion spoiler, below)
Hidden Knowledge has been split into the Dungeon Crawler, Eldritch Knowledge, Survivalist and Volksgeist clauses.

Feats

Merciful Pulse specifies it only works on damaging clauses.

Other

“Perceive” has been replaced with “see” on most things, because what started as a way to account for other senses became a really awful rules tangle that doesn’t hold up under examination.
Pact senses are now noted as requiring line of effect unless otherwise stated. This was the intended function, but it was never directly specified.

Aspirant

Elemental Aspirant punches through “they heal from energy damage” now.
Otyugh Aspirant’s save DC for the level 4 pact ability now uses its pact save DC.
The Giant Size form modification no longer changes your size bonuses/penalties to AC and attack rolls.

Betrothed

Fixed some wording bugs.
Divine betrothed is base shape Any.
The Arms customization has been replaced with Biped, which now comes with optional legs, but otherwise works the same. Quadruped has been renamed Many-Legged to be more clear what it does.
Pincers, Quick Jaws, and Stinger customizations are now immediate actions to proc (letting them be used on AoOs).

Clauses and Shapes

Artificer’s Insight has been reworked along with the skill clauses in A1.

Avowed 1 can be found here. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg)
Avowed 2 can be found here. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLIgc/edit#)

And here’s a spoiler with a discussion of the changes:

Skill Clauses – Lowered ceiling, reliable floor.

So, the skill-boosting clauses have been an occasional point of contention for a while now. Whether you thought they were fun, thought they were boring, or felt they should be nerfed, they did have a lot of problems. Our goal with the skill boosters, similar to how the Warlock in 3.5 had them, was to have a set of abilities that feel good to pick. It’s not enough to get something like Bardic Knowledge, which is a slow-scaling ribbon ability. If you pick up silver tongue, you’re giving up a slot that could have been walking on walls, killing mosquitos, shooting lighting from your hands, or blowing things up with a laser. The +6 bonuses, we felt, did that, but that came at a negative cost of game health.

Our goal with the changes we’ve made to the skill boosters is to make them less centralizing. This has been the goal of most of our recent changes—to make the avowed a class you pick because it’s cool, strong, and you want to use it, rather than one you pick because “oh well, someone in the party had an avowed, I need to use that subsystem too if I want to keep up.” That’s not ideal, and is part of why aether channel and the SAD feats were changed.

What the skill boosting clauses were meant to do is two things:

Enable an avowed who doesn’t have the skill points to invest in a skill to be able to contribute with it, even if it’s not great.
Boost an avowed who is focusing on the skill an amount commensurate with the cost.

The original versions helped the former, but boosted the latter way too hard. The result was an incredibly reliable, very high floor, that far outpaced anyone of other classes. The Legalistic feat was introduced in part to help counteract that, but it still had its own issues—we don’t want to force the party investigator to go “if I can’t beat them, join them” to the avowed. We want the avowed who focuses on skillmonkeying to feel like a good skillmonkey, without making all the other skillmonkeys regret their choice.

So with that said, we’ve made some changes aimed at bringing the ceiling down while keeping the intention intact. The skill-boosting clauses now only grant a +2 bonus on checks with the skills they boost. However, they gain the following two effects: you can always take 10 on the boosted skills, and when you do decide to roll, you roll 2d20 and take the highest.

People familiar with D&D 5e’s math might note that this is Advantage, a mechanic whose effective “bonus” ranges from around +1 to +5, depending on what number you’re trying to hit on the die roll. When you’ve got an even chance (need a 10 on the die), the number is highest. When you have a better chance, the effective bonus drops, and likewise, it drops when you have a lower chance. What does this mean? It means that avowed with the skill boosts will be more reliable when they’re about on par with the game’s expected math, particularly at low levels, but will hit diminishing returns as their bonuses climb higher through other investment. At the same time, they won’t surpass any other skillmonkeys a huge amount. It weights their luck, but they now have about the same ceiling as everyone else.

Aether Channel, SAD, and centralization – Let’s talk about nerfs.

Aether channel, among avowed mechanics, was hit with the highest-visibility nerf up until the removal of the SAD feats. If you weren’t watching this playtest before said nerf, what it originally did at its second rank was turn your base attack bonus from avowed levels to full BAB. The idea behind this was that it was a cool thing for them, to make them stand alongside the full BAB martials as far as “weapon using” when they’re stabbing people with magic. Aether channel was our hideous blow analogue, intended to enable people to stab people with a weapon at the same time as stabbing with their magic. We missed the mark, and got something that, instead, pushed the avowed ahead as pretty much the best melee damage dealer. Full BAB is way overvalued in this system, but we accidentally undervalued it here—when taken as a whole, alongside the bonus damage, utility of clauses, and pact abilities, the cost was far too little, and the power increase far too great, to keep it.

It might have been possible to keep the BAB substitution, and lower the damage in another way, but we believe that that would cause more problems than solutions, and that moving forward with with current state of aether channel is a better direction. Overall, what we want from aether channel is a shape that allows an avowed to use a weapon as a vector for their power, much like a magus and their spells. The magic is what we wanted to push as the important thing, rather than the “also as skilled a master warrior in a direct fight” aspect that the old channel gave.

With that in mind? We understand completely that people liked it, and will be doing something similar to that concept in the future, likely as an archetype that gets full BAB and lowers damage elsewhere, focusing more fully on the STABBING than the magic.

The SAD changes were done for similar reasons to the skill-boosting clauses’ and aether channel’s nerfs. The avowed was far too efficient, to the point where it was game-warping. It wasn’t because of Altered Life and Unnatural Resilience, two DSP feats we included in our playtest, but because of the general ease with which the avowed could run their offenses off one focused ability score, without any real downsides. A 14 in Constitution is fine; Altered Life wasn’t even really needed to push the avowed to an imbalanced state… And in the end, the decision we arrived at is that we would force a multiple stat dependency, even if it’s not a particularly debilitating one. We’re keeping those feats around for now, to test their balance alongside the Constitution feats.

Weapon shape users now require their attack stat and Charisma, as well as a tertiary Constitution (which isn’t something they need to focus heavily, if they go for defensive clauses to shore up their weaknesses). We have the scaling penalty to a target’s saves in a round where they succeed against your modulations to help weapon shapes debuff. In contrast, “caster” avowed can still manage to be SAD. They just max Charisma and blast away, and this is intended. They’ve got less burst damage, but do different things. So right now, we’re pretty happy with the way this setup is looking. The Body of the Ancients and Heart of Magic feats are mirrors of Altered Life and Unnatural Resilience, letting you swap Cha to Con for the same feat cost as swapping Con to Cha, effectively, and we’re moving forward with testing those as well.

(Also, for those who liked the muscle avowed, Embodiment of Aether will likely return in some form, at some point, as an archetype emphasizing your physical form and an alternate method of determining save DCs. I’m not sure when, but we’re planning on doing it.)

Known Issues, Future Plans – We’re making some avowed-specific items.

Right now, we’re working on tuning the damage of some shapes, particularly aether barrage, to make them fun and functional. The biggest issue, which has been brought up a bunch of times in testing, is that there isn’t an equivalent of the warlock’s chasuble of fell power or the kineticist’s diadem... Which, if it applied blanketly to all shapes, would cause problems for math in other places. Our solution is going to make a boosting implement item for each shape, likely for Avowed 2, with unique effects that help shore up each shape’s weaknesses, and giving avowed things to spend their hard-earned money on.

So, now that that’s said, I’ve got a response for MillenniaAntares.

Growth and Miniscule have been updated and I didn't notice until now! These customizations, while appreciated, don't seem to have level limitations on how many times you can take them, which means the companion can get really big/small really quickly. While certainly the most problematic aspects are gone (typically the stat changes), you might not want to allow a huge companion at level 1.

Additional Legs says the companion that takes it becomes a quadruped... which makes sense if a humanoid takes it. However, the image of an amorphous being with two legs - or a snake being with two legs - being treated as a quadruped is kinda... funny? Weird? Maybe it should specify that if the companion gets four legs it's treated as a quadruped.

Aether Beast's attack deals aether pulse + strength damage. Is it intended for the damage to not change if Deadly Ability is gotten? Looks good otherwise.

The Miniscule customization is not on the Reshape Aspiration blacklist. Is this intentional?

Growth and Minuscule—yes, it's intended that you can have a Huge-sized companion at level 1... Except its ability scores don't change, and it doesn't have reach bigger than a Medium creature. It's a big space-filler, and that's intended, but it's generally not going to be as dangerous as another big monster.

Aether Beast—yes, it's a light weapon that adds Str to damage, which would be swapped if Deadly Agility is gained (though as always, be wary when mixing 3pps).

Minuscule—correct, that's intentional.

MilleniaAntares

2017-03-08, 03:38 AM

Thanks for the update! I'll comb through for typoes and whatnot when it's not past midnight.

Growth and Minuscule—yes, it's intended that you can have a Huge-sized companion at level 1... Except its ability scores don't change, and it doesn't have reach bigger than a Medium creature. It's a big space-filler, and that's intended, but it's generally not going to be as dangerous as another big monster.

Aether Beast—yes, it's a light weapon that adds Str to damage, which would be swapped if Deadly Agility is gained (though as always, be wary when mixing 3pps).
Gotcha.

Minuscule—correct, that's intentional.
Huh. Okay.

---

Edit: Feedback time.

Aether Cascade feels a bit pointless to take at level 1, since it is functionally the same as Aether Pulse. Perhaps it should be 1 + CL targets instead of just CL targets?

Aether Retaliation still only says "melee attack", despite you mentioning that you wanted to increase the scope in IRC (if I remember correctly).

Shiney103

2017-03-13, 01:20 AM

I registered just to say this, let's hope I can phrase it correctly.

I loved the 3.5 warlock. Not for glaive, or clawlock, but in general, and for it's unique aspect of being a mage with a huge bag of tricks. An all-day caster that could never stand up to a wizard, or sorcerer, but could outlast, and likely out-survive any of them. Properly specced, a warlock could be a tank, a melee fighter, a debuffer, a mini-blaster, an item crafter or combinations thereof. It had unique abilities that made it able to be 'all right' in many roles, and survive nearly any situation with forethought and creativity. It made for a unique gameplay experience that I really enjoyed.

I like avowed. It seems to scratch most of the itch. My biggest complaint is honestly, the focus you've given it. Not to belittle the pacts, I love some of the flavor options presented, and love guidelines for creating custom ones.

For the longest time, my only complaint was that the avowed seemed to take the generalist approach of the warlock, and narrow it's potential into one or two builds, depending on the archetype or pact selected. This wasn't terrible, but did harm what I liked about the class.

I'd love to get some of the broader options back without harming my capabilities (like the tinker archetype being the only realistic way to be a crafter, at serious expense to other abilities.) but unless there's some sort of generalist friendly build, I don't think I'll see it. I was content grumbling about my more focused warlock with greater power.

The downgrade from D8's to D6's legitimately bothers me. It's taking a warlock that had it's focus forcibly narrowed, and also hampering it's power. While I understand that there's a potential for some builds to potentially abuse damage output like this, I don't think they're still any serious kind of threat by comparison to a properly built damage focused character, unless we're counting combat in many, many rounds.

I have an opinion, and I'm sure you've heard enough of them. but because I'm entitled trash, I'm going to throw mine out there.

I feel like some more broadening of abilities would be good, focusing on the generalist/survivalist options of the warlocks of old. I felt like that was the biggest thing avowed missed. Barring that, being more focused than it's inspiration material would be tolerable, but I really feel like doing 1d6 per two levels is really just holding us back, especially in pathfinder. After all, there was a reason that just about everyone who could went hellfire lock back in the day. That being the primary (See: Only) reliable damage method, did not stack up.

I recognize that there exists certain builds that will pull ahead in damage, absolutely. I think that's the case for nearly any class. But I feel that the direction things have gone, hurts the 'capable in any situation' elements that really drew me into the old warlock, and I hope we can get some of that for the avowed.

MilleniaAntares

2017-03-14, 11:23 PM

So I've been doing some thinking on how exactly to make an Excel sheet for DPR calculations, and I'm wondering just exactly which shapes benefit from stuff like Inspire Courage ("+1 to weapon damage rolls")...

The relevant text is:

"Aether pulses count as a type of weapon for the purposes of feats such as Weapon Focus, and such feats apply to all the avowed's shapes (including shapes used through weapons, such as aether channel) as well. Likewise, aether pulses are their own weapon group for the purposes of abilities and effects."

"Weapon Shapes: Aether barrage, aether blade, aether channel, aether rampage, and aether rounds are weapon shapes. A weapon shape's casting time is a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and every weapon shape has a duration of 1 round. During that round, the avowed can use the shape to make weapon attacks as described in the shape's description."

So the way I understand it, Inspire Courage would apply to barrage, blade, channel, rampage, rounds, and beast, right?

So cascade, grasp, lance, pulse/blow, and retaliation (attack version) don't benefit?

Probably worth mentioning is the FAQ on the magic page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/) about rays:

"Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)

For example, a bard’s inspire courage ability says it affects “weapon damage rolls,” which is worded that way so <you> don’t try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they’re from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls."

---

Also, I think it'd be neat for aether cascade to be able to hit swarms despite being single-target (probably by sacrificing the remaining bounces?).

Aether lance doesn't specify that the +1.5 x str mod portion of its damage comes from being treated as being a two-handed weapon, so is it intended for it to become +1.5 x dex mod with deadly agility?

Aether beast could probably benefit from having all of its user's feats as well, particularly combat and teamwork feats that aren't already included in its calculations.

Otyugh pact could have a neat subpact based around (intelligent) insect/serpent beings or something, and swap trash for swarms, and the diseases for poison...

Edit: Aether Swarm says movement speed is increased to 30 ft at both the second selection and fourth selection.

Taveena

2017-03-16, 06:24 PM

Hey, all. A fairly small - but significant - update to Avowed 2. We've added two new Self subpacts, the Body and Mind pacts. The new Body pact should fulfill some of the same things you guys liked about the old pre-nerf one while being slightly less overpowered (not so much for those of you that really enjoyed being SAD. Sorry), and the Mind pact is an option for those whose idea of perfection does NOT, in fact, involve punching a dude in the face. We hope you enjoy them, and as always, feedback is greatly appreciated.

Dracul3S

2017-03-18, 09:06 AM

Taveena

2017-03-21, 11:24 PM

I have a question regarding the elemental subpact in Avowed 2: Is the gaining of an elemental subtype at level 12 intended? Just asking as it was removed from the base pact.
There is an additonal issue as well: The immediate action summoning of the elemental and the swift action to maintain it, cause it imppossible to maintain it at all.

The Genie pact is losing that subtype in the next update. We'll add wording to clarify that you don't need to spend a swift the round after you summon the elemental with it.

Serafina

2017-03-22, 07:37 AM

A question on the Tinker-archetype, and Empower Spell-Like ability (and particularly Balefire Infusion):
Does the Empower-effect only apply to the damage from the Pulse, or also to the damage from the damage from the spell cast via Aether Spark?

It should really be the latter, otherwise you can get 27D6 fireballs that punch through immunities and resistances at level 9. The archetype is already crazy-good with any sort of Vizier-dip, because you can still get 18D6 fireballs 5+ times per day at 9th level that way, but there's a difference between strong blasting and brokenly devastating blasting.

Dracul3S

2017-03-22, 08:46 AM

The Genie pact is losing that subtype in the next update. We'll add wording to clarify that you don't need to spend a swift the round after you summon the elemental with it.

Good to know. Thanks.

Forrestfire

2017-03-22, 04:52 PM

Graysire

2017-03-23, 12:51 PM

I've played pathfinder twice, both times I've in the end decided I prefer 3.5e and haven't really ever gone back to it. But this class...
This class makes me want to honestly play pathfinder because it looks amazingly fun.

MilleniaAntares

2017-03-26, 02:56 AM

The Guiding Hand pact benefit seems a bit weak compared to the other pacts' level 12 abilities. Admittedly I just may not be considering it as part of the whole package, but...

Forrestfire

2017-04-01, 08:57 AM

MilleniaAntares

2017-04-02, 01:11 AM

Hey all! Been a while. There's been a lot of hectic times on our end, so we don't have a full update to the avowed playtests today, but we do have a brand-new product for you, which can be found here as a free download! (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/208753/The-Avowed-April-2017-Edition)
Pretty good document!

Center of the Story seems a bit... weak, to be honest? It has some trade-offs compared to Center of Attention, which comes online at level 6... I think it should be better than Center of Attention in every way, like range (100 ft+?), duration (+1 minute after concentration ends), etc. Some flavor text about how they talk about how awesome the GM's betrothed would be good too!

Aether Launch is specially good, I want as an actual shape rather than just leaving it to speedrunners!

I'm 'kinda' surprised that there isn't a World Engine betrothed, what with the pact's emphasis on exploiting inconsistencies in the code of reality. :P

Edit: I think the Pact Engine sense is a bit too limited. Perhaps it would be better said as "where you last entered your current plane". That way, we get the same joke, and it makes sense in video game turns: you despawn from one map (plane), and spawn on another.

If you don't want to change it, you may wish to specify how the sense works when you're on a different plane.

Edit #2: Lingering Pulse should probably also work with Aether Circus.

AlienFromBeyond

2017-05-22, 03:11 PM

How does Nation Pact's On My Command ability interact with Aether Focus or Aether Skirmisher, if at all? RAW it looks like it can't with Focus because it's not a shape, but that also means it might with Skirmisher because again, it's technically not a shape and is thus shapeless? I kind of like the idea of focusing and pumping more power into your allies though, maybe making On My Command into a pact-exclusive shape?

Speaking of Aether Focus, it seems pretty potent with Tinker and using Aether Spark with a Magic Missile wand to eventually target and auto-hit 5 enemies, and then focus for ever increasing damage on multiple enemies instead of an AoE they could walk out of.

Split Loyalties is really cool, but going over the various pacts it seems like Dragon and Self pacts are by far the best options for it, mechanically they seem strongest. Dragon because free traits are like free half feats and the Hoarding Instinct bonus is completely independent of Avowed level, bypassing the halved Avowed level reduction for the second pact. Self for the obvious Divine Grace type ability, but extra HP/speed/attack is never bad. Next tier after those would be Divine (party Divine Grace!), Otyugh (scaling disease silliness), Shadow (excellent sneaky stuff). The rest just don't impress me when you're only getting attunement and the level 4 empowerment at a severely reduced rate. Whether this means they're not good enough or the rest are too useful even with that restriction I'm not sure.

By the way, is it allowed to take a subpact with Split Loyalties?

Forrestfire

2017-05-29, 12:48 AM

Hello! It has been quite a while since our last major update. After a lot of tinkering, playtesting, and reviewing, we’ve got some new material and tweaks to old material, both in Avowed 1 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg) and Avowed 2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLIgc/edit#).

So what’s changed, then? The biggest things to note are skills (the avowed is being buffed to become a 6 + Int mod class, and gets a boost to a useful skill based on pact), the nation pact (totally reworked, command effects turned into a shape), area-of-effect shapes (had their damage scaling changed), and weapon shapes (we’ve made the 4th rank less mandatory).

Here are the changelogs for the playtests; discussion on the changes can be found in the third spoiler.

Pacts

Nation pact has been reworked; see the discussion on it below.
Otyugh pact attunement now grants you diseases for free as you level up.
Otyugh pact 4th now deals damage immediately for the first failed save, though only once per round.
Otyugh pact 8th has been buffed, and punches through disease immunity.
Otyugh pact 16th now allows you to pierce ability damage and drain immunity.

Clauses and Shapes

We’ve made wording clearer on how the AoE shapes that add Cha to damage work, noting the damage in their descriptions.
Shapes that previously increased damage to 1d6 per CL at rank 2 no longer do (the addition of Charisma to damage is meant to cover that increase, making it more reliable. We overbuffed it a bit. They’ve got new 2nd ranks, and we’ve adjusted shapes to have different scaling (see the discussion below).
The Aether Command shape has been added.
Aether Grasp’s second selection now has an effect that helps pierce Freedom of Movement.
Aether Grasp’s third selection (the force choke) now requires a full-round action to use.
Aether Lance has a new 3rd selection, emphasizing its extreme mobility.
Aether Rounds has been reworked to be more similar to Aether Channel, and thrown weapons are now part of it instead of the latter.
Aquatic Affinity now accounts for creatures with very low (but not nonexistent) land speeds.
Hunter’s Sense now benefits the whole party with a Pass Without Trace effect.
Nightfall’s Deeper Darkness upgrade comes at CL 7th now, instead of 10th.
Reveal Your Secrets now reads and copies books.
Feral Rush clause added

Feats

Overcharge Modulation’s damage has been reworked.
You now cannot use clauses while a Pactbound Guardian familiar is holding the charge on one.

Other

Ascension has a note about appearances being flexible.
Patronage no longer changes pact type.
Balefire Infusion got renamed Baleful Infusion to make it less fluff-locked.
The avowed now gets 6+Int mod skill points, and each pact grants a skill bonus.
Bonus shapes aren’t a thing on pacts anymore. Instead, the avowed just gets an extra shape at 1st level.

Aspirant

Aspirants now have a barrage-based form modification.
The Gale Wings form modification notes that it does not have to be actual wings.
The Savage Claws least effect now adds bleed damage instead of being superfluous once you upgraded it.
Fiend aspirant’s Aura of Dread now only affects opponents.

Betrothed

Companions now get traits and darkvision.
Note added for companions, betrothed, and Extra Clause.
Betrothed and their companions can exchange which Aether Pulse progression each has.

Pacts

Genie subpact no longer gives you the elemental subtype.
The Agathion subpact’s Blood of Martyrs ability now affects more allies, but not you.
Celestial (Angel), Undead (Ghost), and Undead (Nightshade) subpacts added.

Clauses and Shapes
Aether Circus has less missiles at lower levels now, and has been reworked to be able to fire clusters of missiles at the same target(s).
Aether Beast’s hit points have been increased to half that of the casting avowed instead of 1/10.
Least Wish clause added.
As with the Avowed 1 area shapes, the Aether Well and Aether Circus have had their damage scaling changed.

Feats

Aether Drive has been adjusted to work better with weapons, particularly magic ones.
Aether Focus has been revised to be way clearer on how it works.
Aether Skirmisher has been buffed.
Split Loyalties no longer gives the 4th-level pact ability at level 16.

Clauses

Flourishing Pulse removed for the time being; its effect proved a bit problematic with the Otyugh pact.

Nation Pact
The overwhelming feedback we’ve gotten on the nation pact is that it was disjointed and didn’t really feel like it had a cohesive mechanical setup—its attunement wanted you in melee, command abilities wanted you to lead allies, other abilities seeming to be about buffing, etc. We’ve revised the nation pact, in particular changing the attunement to function regardless of reach and weapons, creating an area of terrain around you even if you’re a “caster” type or a ranged weapon user, and scaling the area. We’ve also added two new abilities that help the avowed interact more narratively with the game; creating crowds and leading armies to victory. These replaced the command effects that the nation pact previously had, but don’t fear, there is now a new shape, aether command, that allows the avowed to help their allies attack from level 1, instead of making you wait until later. We hope that these changes will help make the nation pact fill the buffer/leader role better, while still having plenty of avenues for different builds and playstyles.

Otyugh Pact
The otyugh pact had some problems of its 4th- and 8th-level abilities being a bit underwhelming. Overall, they didn’t really do what they were intended to do (turn diseases into a combat debuff), so we’ve reworked them. In addition, otyugh-pact avowed now gain the ability to punch through immunity to disease and later on, ability damage, with their abilities.

Shapes
Something we’ve heard a decent amount is that there is a pressure to all-in on a single shape, capping it at rank 4 before you move onto other things. Particularly for weapon shapes, we think this is a problem; the way the shapes are set up is meant to allow, but not force, someone to specialize, and with that in mind, we’ve made a few big changes.

Weapon Shapes
The weapon shapes getting pounce at rank 4 meant that if you were being a melee character… you kinda needed to get that rank by the time you get iteratives, if you wanted to full attack well. To fix this, we’ve created a new lesser clause, feral rush, that grants the avowed pounce. We haven’t removed the pounce effects from the shapes, though! If you don’t want to spend a clause on the ability, the shapes are there for that (and get an extra effect if you have pounce already), but otherwise, there is now another avenue for competent meleeing at later levels.

Area Shapes
We overbuffed the area shapes way back, when we added the Cha to damage based on rank… and like weapon shapes, we caused the issue of pressuring players into picking more of the same shape instead of diversifying. To address this, we’ve changed how the scaling of these shapes works entirely; they no longer scale damage by rank at all, not even at the 2nd selection. We’ve added in a new effect on each of the shapes that previously had a damage dice boost, and now, each of the shapes that had that get a new scaling that speeds up each time a weapon user would have gained a similar increase to overall damage.

So what does this mean? If you were all-inning on a shape at lower levels, it probably means you’ll be doing slightly less damage. Sorry about that. However, for mid levels and higher levels, the damage of area shapes is increased, and the shapes are now much better for avowed who’re branching into the effects, letting you pick up more varied powersets or even just grab all the AoEs you want! We recommend that GMs allow players who had invested in these shapes to decide if they want to swap them for other selections, now that they’ve been changed.

Skills
The avowed’s out of combat utility isn’t bad, but it could use a little help. With that in mind, we’ve upped the number of skill points the avowed gets to make it comparable to similar characters like the bard, and also added a skill boost of +1/2 level to each pact, listed in their pact skills section.

As always, thanks for reading, and we hope you enjoy.

Tuvarkz

2017-05-29, 03:54 AM

Got a question: Betrothed Avowed and Aether Breath
At 15th and onwards, the Aether Breath damage prog goes up to 1d6 per CL + 1d6 per odd CL.
With the Betrothed's modifier progression, am I to assume it's intended damage progression from 15th onwards would be 1d6 per odd CL + reduced progression (Taking level 15 as an example, 8d6+4d6=12d6)?

Dracul3S

2017-05-29, 09:32 AM

I like most of the changes, but where is the mind self pact? I am no fan of the entire unarmed combat theme. Changes to shapes seem good. I love that shapes are no longer tied to pacts. Makes it easier to build quite a few concepts. Any chance to see a long distance shape? I'd like to use the aether blast shape with the same distance the fireball spell uses. It would please me by far more than creating two explosions. Least wish is a great clause. A good way to grant access to cantrips.

Forrestfire

2017-05-29, 09:51 AM

Mind Pact accidentally got left out when copying over; it's fixed now. My apologies. :smallredface:

AlienFromBeyond

2017-05-29, 12:39 PM

Ghost Pact (Undead)
Attunement: All attacks have a 5% chance to miss you. At 3rd level and every five avowed levels thereafter, this miss chance increases by 5% (up to a maximum of 50% at 19th level).
Either the progression is supposed to be different, or the example for max miss chance is way too high and lists the wrong level for the final increase.

EDIT: Also, it would be really nice if Aether Spark worked with Dorjes as well if the campaign is also using Psionics, as they are the Psionic equivalent of wands, but are explicitly not wands so they can't sneak in under magic/psionics transparency.

MilleniaAntares

2017-05-29, 10:01 PM

Huzzah for updates!

I will need to do calculations later.

Avowed 1:

Aether Retaliation still only procs from melee attacks. Is this is intentional? I recall Forrest telling me in IRC that she intended to change it, but that was months ago and I'm not sure whether she decided against it or it didn't get into her notes.

Avowed 2:

Betrothed:

Whenever a betrothed or her companion would gain a bonus to or deal further additional damage with their aether pulses, the extra damage is halved after totaling it. This includes bonuses such as the weapon damage added by aether channel’s third selection. In addition, whenever the betrothed or her companion uses an aether pulse that would deal damage dice equal to their caster level, they instead deal damage dice equal to the base damage a non-archetyped Avowed would deal with their aether pulse, though any additional damage is still halved (so, a 9th-level betrothed with two selections of aether blast would deal 5d6 points of damage)

This needs to be reworded to fit in with the new method for AoE damage. At the very least it should be "deal damage equal to their caster level or more".

Aether Blade's third selection does not stack with a companion's aetheric strikes, even though aetheric strikes seems to stack with most other shapes.

Shapes:

Aether Circus's name would be nicer if it was missile. Lingering Pulse would also work nice with this shape, as something akin to 'fallout' from the missile strike.

Both Aether Circus and Well are not marked as Area Shapes, though Circus does specify it does.

Typo watch!

Avowed 1:

"At 1st level, an avowed knows two different shape sof his choice."

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-05-30, 05:46 PM

I have a few inquiries regarding the avowed's patronage class feature.

1. Must the avowed meditate, must the recipient meditate, or must both meditate?

2. Must the recipient be within line of sight, or can the avowed grant the pact from afar, coordinated by long-distance communication?

3. Can the granted pact be made hereditary, as per page 28?

4. How does a granted symbiotic pact work? Does the 14th-level avowed's original symbiotic partner gain the power from the granted pacts, or does the power go to the 14th-level avowed? If the power goes to the 14th-level avowed, is it just pure flavor, or is there a mechanical aspect to it?

5. Can the recipient instantly retrain all of their class levels into avowed levels, or must they wait until they gain a new level? The text for patronage says "retrain levels into the class immediately," but then refers the reader to page 28, which stipulates that such a retraining can occur only on a new level.

Also, I am confused by how the otyugh pact avowed's 4th-level empowerment works:

Filth Absorption (4th): As a standard action, you can absorb filth and detritus. You clean that area completely, consuming all disease, grime, food, and trash within 5 feet. This functions as a remove disease spell targeting all adjacent creatures (caster level equal to your avowed caster level) and a prestidigitation to clean the area. If you cure someone of a disease, you become infected with it.

In addition, whenever you damage a creature with an aether pulse, you can infect them with one disease you carry to them. This works as if they had caught it normally, except its save DC is equal to your aether pulse save DC, and its onset time is immediate, dealing its first instance of damage as they fail the save against this ability. You can only infect a creature in this way once per round.

If you land a single hit on someone with an aether barrage, even if they succeed on the initial saving throw, are they still infected and thus forced to make saving throws on subsequent days?

Suppose a creature has already failed a saving throw against the effects of one of your diseases. On subsequent rounds, can you infect the creature with the same disease to apply more ability damage, or must you switch to another disease?

ChrisAsmadi

2017-05-31, 09:58 AM

If you used Aether Rounds with a Gun, would it do half damage (because it hits touch AC) or full damage (because the firearms state it doesn't count as such for "feats and abilities")?

Forrestfire

2017-05-31, 10:12 AM

Half damage (it's worded to account for it; it references "attacks that target touch AC" instead of "touch attacks").

ChrisAsmadi

2017-05-31, 11:07 AM

Half damage (it's worded to account for it; it references "attacks that target touch AC" instead of "touch attacks").

Doesn't that end up with a weird situation where firearm attacks double in damage at longer range?

edit: Was Aether Rounds 3rd Selection losing the half damage to touch weapons from Beta 13-2 to Beta 14 intentional or a mistake?

Kaidinah

2017-06-01, 08:28 AM

So if I am understanding this correctly, utilizing Aether Drive allows you get a higher enhancement bonus over Aether Lance by letting you add your weapon to Channel's scaling enhancement bonus. This overrides the enhancement bonus gained from lance right? Also does it inherit the channeled weapon's crit range?

Thanks for all the hard work. This update was rad.

AlienFromBeyond

2017-06-02, 02:01 PM

I am concerned about the Reborn trait in Avowed 2. Specifically "you count as a member of that race (including types and subtypes)". The bolded section is the main concern, as this is the old Animal Soul feat all over again. A character can take Reborn (Bear) and count as Animal allowing things like Animal Growth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animal-growth), Atavism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/atavism/), or benefiting from the bonus to saves from a friendly Nature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo-oracle-mysteries/nature/) mystery Oracle with the Friend to the Animals revelation. I do really like the "count as a member of that race" part though, as Racial Heritage being a full feat and restricted to only humans is very limiting. But getting the type/subtype (free Air subtype for flying, or Angel and the huge list of bonuses it gives) bonuses as well, on top of a minor Knowledge bonus? It all seems a bit much.

Vhaidara

2017-06-02, 04:32 PM

But getting the type/subtype (free Air subtype for flying, or Angel and the huge list of bonuses it gives) bonuses as well, on top of a minor Knowledge bonus? It all seems a bit much.

You might want to check the full text

In addition, you count as a member of that race (including types and subtypes) in addition to your own for the purposes of meeting prerequisites and requirements, as well as for being affected by abilities such as bane weapons and a ranger's favored enemy.

You don't get the full benefits of the subtype or type

AlienFromBeyond

2017-06-02, 06:15 PM

You don't get the full benefits of the subtype or type
Sorry, basically everywhere else I've looked they generally point out that you don't get the benefits, so a lack of that had me thinking you do.

Still doesn't address the huge red flag over being a trait version (aka half a feat) of the old Animal Soul feat that was deemed too powerful for being able to snipe type specific buffs, as at least in my mind the "Target: one animal" is a requirement which Reborn as you point out specifically states it satisfies, much like the Bane and Favored Enemy examples.

Forrestfire

2017-06-03, 02:29 AM

The intent is that bane weapons, favored enemy, and effects such as those (i.e. "something that's specifically hunting/targeting a type to kill the character better") work with Reborn, not that all effects that work on a type do. I can see why that wording on that part of the ability might have been confusing, though. We will adjust it to be clearer.

Mezzaluna

2017-06-03, 09:30 AM

I like the rebalances to the area shape numbers, but I think the standard new 2nd selection they're all getting should be a feat instead. It's too much of a sidegrade that many playstyles won't use, and feels like a tax that's in the way of the 3rd and 4th selections that people would want more.

-An Aether Hive feat user would never use a full round action to make the Wells, unless they don't need to move on the first turn of combat
-A Village Burner Aether Breath user would also never use a full round action
-It feels strange now that unlocking the alternate Breath form is 3rd shape when it makes much more sense as a 2nd selection (Because then it would cost one more shape rather than two, making it fit better into a versatile shape-dipping build)
-Aether Eruption's 3rd feels much more vital than its 2nd to using it effectively

I'm also worried that Aether Lance was hit too hard in the crossfire and after level 8 will fall off in effectiveness when it has neither iteratives nor 1d6 per level damage, and Aether Drive plus a strong magic weapon might be necessary for it to try and keep up.

Dracul3S

2017-06-05, 04:29 AM

Yes, I'm not a fan of those 2nd selections as well. The only good one is aether well, that can be quite an upgrade. Another problem is, if you play at higher levels it suddenly ceases to do anything at all (besides aether well). Not nice. The skill improvements are great. The tinkerer still has text about a bonus shape at second level, but those do not exist anymore.

Mithril Leaf

2017-06-05, 03:36 PM

So if a Self Pact Avowed has Damnation feats and hits level 16, have they just loopholed their way out of the downsides? Because I'd really like it to work that way.

Forrestfire

2017-06-05, 07:27 PM

They have; if their soul was in any way not theirs, that ability of the Self pact brings it back.

Dracul3S

2017-06-06, 12:33 PM

Nice! I feel the sudden need to play an avowed who is dammning himself by selling his soul to himself and later cheating his way out of it. There is a not that serieous game coming up and I will run that idea by the dm!

Kiton2

2017-06-12, 02:12 PM

A few questions on Aether Circus:

1) Are Alchemical, Sacred and Profane bonuses to speed, uh... anywhere? Is there anything that counts for that, like, say, an Aasimar's FCB? There are many many bonuses to speeds in the game, but far as I can tell, the vast majority are quite untyped.

2) Is this instant or duration based for the purposes of aether-focus compatibility? Certainly the missile swarms have a duration, but it's also an instantaneous standard-action, fire&forget power that's no longer active or interferes with anything once activated. So can one stand there and fire off more and more powerful missile volleys?

3) The fractional damage section of Aether Pulse specifically states: "determined by dividing the number
of dice in the aether pulse's normal base damage". Does this mean that while the dice of additional missile hits is halved, any bonuses such as from FCB or Charisma would not be halved?

4) Any combiner feats in store for it?

AlienFromBeyond

2017-06-12, 04:19 PM

If you swap in Constitution for Charisma using Heart of Magic, do you get double/x1.5 Con mod to Fortitude saves if you're Self/Divine pact? My understanding of earlier Paizo rulings is that you wouldn't, but wanted to confirm which was your intent in a situation like this.

EDIT: I wish I could qualify for Aether Armor with Con instead of Str if I have Heart of Magic, as you need to have a Con belt then which makes getting Str high enough without crippling your other stats difficult. Might be too SAD though, I'm guessing that's why it's the way it is.

EDIT2: I noticed Artificer's Insight gives the double roll ability for UMD, but doesn't give a +2 bonus to it like Craft and Disable Device. Also it would be nice if you got some added benefit for Disable Device if you took Artificer's Insight and Dungeon Crawler, if only the ability to roll Disable Device 3 times and take the best result or a take 15 ability, since both clauses give the double roll and take 10 for the skill.

Drifter S.

2017-06-18, 07:58 PM

Taveena

2017-06-23, 04:05 AM

Been trying to poke around and come up with questions and/or comments, and figured now is as good as any a time to dump the batch I have. Seems like there's lots of little wording hiccups you guys still have to comb over, and I don't envy you one bit.

Avowed 1
1-The 2nd selection of Aether command lets you use the shape as a swift action, but can you use it twice per round? Is it possible (either through double use or by being Betrothed) to use multiple Commands on the same target?
2-While it’s likely a corner case, will there ever be any mention of how Aether Channel interacts with a Flurry? A one-two level dip into Scaled Fist UMonk with Magical Knack to cover the lost CL seems like it would be a pretty good deal.
3-The Skillful Pact often doesn’t coincide with the Pact Skill that gains an Insight bonus, will there be plans to let players pick that skill instead of one of the extra class skills?
4-Is it intentional that Silver Shoes doesn’t really “benefit” most of the weapon shapes, due to “bonus attack that does not stack with haste” being part of those shapes?
5-Thrown weapons seem to suffer a bit from being sort of an afterthought in regards to Aether Rounds, especially with the 2nd "rank" creating ammo to use. Is it intended to work like Sharding, where you're making the motion but not actually throwing the weapon? (A related aside, the Halfling FCB refers to Aether Channel in regards to thrown weapons.)

Avowed 2
1-Does Split Loyalties allow you to take Guardian Spirit? On that note, is Guardian Spirit going to stay as-is with that wad of... Everything that it does?
2-Not really a question, but I’m not quite seeing the purpose of a Betrothed Companion’s Aetheric Strikes, on account of how the archetype appears to actively discourage direct damage by chopping all flat damage bonuses in half if you so much as look at a pulse shape. It also looks like it mainly only benefits Aether Barrage, what with other shapes already granting enhancement bonuses.
3-Does Body Pact’s AC bonus function similarly to the one a Monk has? It being untyped raises a few of questions about when/if it can get “shut down”.
4-Is it intentional that the Mind pact’s attunement is just so narrowly focused and empty compared to the grabbag of broadly applicable bonuses that Self and Body give? I won’t deny it’s an interesting ability, though. Seems like the relative value of a lot of attunements is questionable. (Compare Court Fey and Dragon to Nation or Fiend)
5-While Aether Rampage is sort of lagging behind, would there be any plans to expand Aether Rake to allow someone using Aether Channel with Unarmed Strikes (or a light weapon in general) to maintain an Aether Channel and Aether Grasp together?

In order!
A1
1. Aether Command will be reworded so its swift action variant cannot be used in the same round that you've used another Pulse shape. This should also prevent doubling up on Aether Command.
2. We'll work to clarify that.
3. All insight bonuses to pact skills SHOULD either be a class skill the Avowed has normally, or a class skill granted by the pact itself. If we've missed anything there, let us know.
4. Silver Shoes was written before the Shapes were reworked to grant the Haste-like effect. That said, it's still an ideal item to implement, as it means that should you opt to not use the third rank of a shape, you still have relatively easy access to Haste - as with rank 4 and access to Pounce.
5. Sharding-alike is the intention, yeah. We're planning to clarify how that works.

A2
1. We'll clarify that Split Loyalties does indeed count as having that pact for the purpose of prerequisites. Guardian Spirit is likely to stay how it is unless there are significant balance concerns; as it is it's "Open Minded with additional fluff" for the most part - a feat intended to further the story. The skill point bonus is so that players don't feel punished for taking a feat their DM might not take advantage of.
2. Aetheric Strikes should stack with the enhancement bonus granted by most other shapes; if we've missed any, that's a mistake on our part. It's worth noting that a Betrothed's damage should be considered from the perspective of both the Betrothed and their Companion attacking together, resulting in very close damage to that of a normal Avowed, rather than viewing both creatures as independent entities which should do comparable DPR to any other party member. Our intention is to make the Betrothed EQUAL in power to a normal Avowed, not twice as strong.
3. We'll discuss this.
4. Mind Pact is something we're going to rework in the near future; your feedback has been taken on board.
5. We haven't yet seen any numbers on Aether Rampage with the Rampaging Frenzy feat, so we're holding back judgment on it being underpowered. We've got ideas for more feat support, but no, we do not intend to alter how Aether Rake functions in this context. We may write up a later feat to support this concept, however.

Drifter S.

2017-06-24, 10:46 PM

In order!
A1
1. Aether Command will be reworded so its swift action variant cannot be used in the same round that you've used another Pulse shape. This should also prevent doubling up on Aether Command.
2. We'll work to clarify that.
3. All insight bonuses to pact skills SHOULD either be a class skill the Avowed has normally, or a class skill granted by the pact itself. If we've missed anything there, let us know.
4. Silver Shoes was written before the Shapes were reworked to grant the Haste-like effect. That said, it's still an ideal item to implement, as it means that should you opt to not use the third rank of a shape, you still have relatively easy access to Haste - as with rank 4 and access to Pounce.
5. Sharding-alike is the intention, yeah. We're planning to clarify how that works.

A2
1. We'll clarify that Split Loyalties does indeed count as having that pact for the purpose of prerequisites. Guardian Spirit is likely to stay how it is unless there are significant balance concerns; as it is it's "Open Minded with additional fluff" for the most part - a feat intended to further the story. The skill point bonus is so that players don't feel punished for taking a feat their DM might not take advantage of.
2. Aetheric Strikes should stack with the enhancement bonus granted by most other shapes; if we've missed any, that's a mistake on our part. It's worth noting that a Betrothed's damage should be considered from the perspective of both the Betrothed and their Companion attacking together, resulting in very close damage to that of a normal Avowed, rather than viewing both creatures as independent entities which should do comparable DPR to any other party member. Our intention is to make the Betrothed EQUAL in power to a normal Avowed, not twice as strong.
3. We'll discuss this.
4. Mind Pact is something we're going to rework in the near future; your feedback has been taken on board.
5. We haven't yet seen any numbers on Aether Rampage with the Rampaging Frenzy feat, so we're holding back judgment on it being underpowered. We've got ideas for more feat support, but no, we do not intend to alter how Aether Rake functions in this context. We may write up a later feat to support this concept, however.
Thanks for the followup! Avowed is really enjoyable, even to just talk about, but darn if you don't have tons of fiddly bits to try to keep in order. Want to touch back on everything one last time, but I (hopefully) won't end up hogging attention from other questions:

A1
1-The wording looked clear on different pulse shapes, I just figured it would be good to bring up the swift action thing for clarification. Call it a hunch that SOMEONE will use “but you’re not using a different pulse shape” as an argument.
2, 4, & 5 - Good to know! I’m not against how the first two function as-is right now, mostly just idle curiosity.
3-This wasn’t so much about the Insight Bonus as the the Skillful Pact feat giving you the Skill Unlocks that often don’t coincide with what’s getting the insight bonus (like for Self Pact).

A2
1-I adore Guardian Spirit, I’m mostly just worried about all the things tacked on (bonus to Cha checks and saving throws vs spells) in addition to the cool fluff and skill point bonus might turn some people off.
2-I’ve started to wrap my head around Betrothed, especially the fun things you could pull off with it (double Aether Command battlefield tactician HO!), but I guess a lot of it just won’t “click” with me and will always look weird.
3 & 4-Look forward to seeing what comes about! I’ll note the Body Pact inquiry was initially because I was plugging the bonus into a mythweavers sheet and saw it blow up up my CMD, but it being untyped means it doesn’t (or at least shouldn’t?) stack with the normal bonus to CMD from Strength so it was sort of moot. Still felt that the last part of the question was relevant, though.
5-Taking a glance back, I don’t remember WHY I thought rampage was lagging, it looks pretty swell just looking at it, so I'll chalk that up to not paying attention to it for the last dozen or so updates. The bulk of my issue was more with Aether Grasp in general, but that stems more from the headache of grapple rules (still not quite sure if the CMD bonus is only intended to be against someone reversing the grapple or for all the time, or how all those penalties on the grappler themself makes any sense at all due to how Aether Grasp works) and grapple-related style feats (like Snapping Turtle Clutch or Grabbing Style).

Kiton2

2017-06-29, 03:21 PM

Any chance of answers regarding my earlier Aether circus questions?

Sethis

2017-06-30, 09:20 AM

Is it intended that magic missile be the ideal spell for a Tinker to use aether spark on?

It's a targetted first level spell without an attack roll. A 5th level tinker with a wand of magic missile (5th) does either 3d4+3d6+3 with no attack rolls or saves to a single target, or 1d4+3d6+1 to 3 targets.

It's not an amazing amount of damage, but it is quite consistent.

Forrestfire

2017-07-09, 10:55 PM

Well it certainly has been a long time, and we apologize for that. There's been a combination of A Lot Of Stuff in this update, and life stuff in general getting in the way. However, after far too long, we have an Avowed 1 update for you all!

As always, it can be found here. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg)

There are a couple major changes in this update, which I've gone through in some detail here, though you should check the full changelog to see what else it has.

Aether Beam
We've added a new shape to this update! Aether beam, a dedicated line-attack option, represents a "wide line"—that is, 10 feet wide, much like the lines in 3.5, and should help fulfill peoples' laser needs. Previously, the only lines were aether breath and aether lance, which didn't really support the concept of a massive laser blast, so now we have this for that.

Reactive Healing
The celestial pact's rune of penance has been buffed to help it stop being so meaningless by higher levels, and remove the weird break points around multiples of 10 damage. Now, instead of granting fast healing 5 per 10 damage taken, it will instead heal creatures for half the damage they take, over time.

This comes with a new mechanic, Reactive Healing, that exists to codify the avowed's brand of healing. The avowed is a very at-will class, and we wanted to write a mechanic that keeps that feel, without breaking the game for attrition-heavy GMs and groups. Thus, Reactive Healing, which only heals in response to damage actively being taken, and can't heal you for more than that damage, has been added to handle this.

The Old One pact attunement has also been adjusted to follow these rules (though nothing really changed there).

Another round of changes for Rounds and Channel
Last time, we updated the melee weapon shapes and provided a Pounce clause because we wanted people to feel less forced to go all-in on any given shape, vs taking 1-2 as they like to get a versatile character. Aether rounds and aether channel had the issue of really requiring the third selection to continue to be a damage option, unlike the other shapes, so we've changed it (much like the AoE shapes getting their own scaling). At CL 4th, these shapes will now add damage automatically.

In addition, we've cleaned up the wording and helped clear interactions to function as intended, particularly around things like single-weapon TWF. There is a slight nerf here, though: the shapes no longer add their bonus damage on some types of extra attacks. Feats and options that give attacks above and beyond what other fighting styles can manage are great, but we don't want the shapes to multiplicatively scale quite as hard in these cases.

Pacts

We’re introducing a new mechanic for handling avowed at-will healing such as the Celestial pact’s Rune of Penance, or the Old One pact’s attunement. It can be found at the start of the pacts section, and is called Reactive Healing.
Celestial pact’s halo can now be dismissed without turning off your attunement,
Court Fey pact’s bonus damage against flanked and flat-footed enemies has been moved to the 4th-level pact empowerment. Poaching it with Split Loyalties was a bit much.
Court Fey pact’s capstone has had a note added about how it works with spells that require saves (unaware creatures fail automatically against teleportation effects, and are penalized otherwise).
Elemental pact’s sense now specifies that creatures can be assumed to have an example of your element in their bodies.
We’ve buffed Shadow pact’s sense so that it no longer overlaps with the Sightseer clause, and also added a small scaling benefit to it.

Clauses and Shapes

Pulse Shapes now have a note that concentration on them does not turn off all your other SLAs. Whoops.
A new shape, Aether Beam, has been added to Avowed 1.
Aether Channel and Aether Rounds have been revised (again, haaaah…) to now get their “adds damage to the attack on top of weapon damage” at caster level 4th, instead of coming from a rank of the shape. However, we’ve also added some changes to a couple cases, namely, single-weapon TWF (like a brawler or monk’s unarmed strike) is now treated as multiple weapons for it, and the bonus damage is also added to only attacks gained from base attack bonus, haste and similar effects, off-hand weapons, natural weapons, and attacks of opportunity. Other extra attacks no longer benefit from the added damage.
Aether Command’s swift action 2nd rank has had a note added that it can’t be used in the same turn as other shapes.
Aether Rampage is now just a base of 1d6 per odd level + Str, instead of also adding unarmed damage.
Aether Rampage’s 4th rank is now similar to that of other melee weapon shapes, granting pounce, and its 3rd rank (rend) has been nerfed in damage significantly. It now, however, grants an extra trigger of modulation effects.
Aether Rounds’s 2nd rank now works to create phantom copies of thrown weapons as well.
Hunter’s Instincts now lets you optionally not leave tracks.
Relinquish can no longer be used to counterspell.

Feats

The Aether Torrent feat can now be taken if you have Aether Beam (it still works for Aether Wrath).
Skillful Pact now functions properly with the new pact skills.

Other

Bonuses that were previously doubled on non-attack-roll shapes have been changed to scale at the same speed as the AoE damage scaling, increasing for those shapes but not others.
When a shape's damage dice would round down to 0, it now rounds down to 1 point of damage.

Anyway, thanks for reading, all, and I hope you enjoy the update :smallbiggrin:

Is it intended that magic missile be the ideal spell for a Tinker to use aether spark on?

It's a targetted first level spell without an attack roll. A 5th level tinker with a wand of magic missile (5th) does either 3d4+3d6+3 with no attack rolls or saves to a single target, or 1d4+3d6+1 to 3 targets.

It's not an amazing amount of damage, but it is quite consistent.

It's intended, yeah. It's a definitely consistent amount of damage, but it won't be winning any DPR challenges, and you could probably have similar odds of hitting that many guy with just aether cascade or similar, potentially.

Mezzaluna

2017-07-10, 06:24 AM

It's good to see updates again!
...But I'm worried the Aether Rounds balancing ride might not be over yet.

I'd looked at some rough numbers before this update and was already worried that invested Aether Rounds might not give enough extra bang for its buck compared to minimal investment Aether Barrage. Now that Aether Rounds doesn't boost Rapid Shot anymore, I think the problem might have gotten even worse.

I did some more thorough number crunching (which might have mistakes! Hopefully not) and I think that when compared against average AC and touch AC of enemies of equal CR, Aether Rounds only pulls ahead a very small amount.

[Full working here] (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LLoeU827MPkfODeC5BXyNcNuXjL7adVDe_Knh-3HmaQ/edit#gid=691124540)

Both investing at least 3 ranks in their shape and taking Precise/Point Blank shot, an Aether Rounds user also has to:
-Take Rapid Shot and Manyshot (Deadly Aim doesn't seem to make much difference across the levels. In fact, Rapid Shot barely makes a difference to total damage any more either.)
-Spend the gold for the enhancement bonus on their weapon
-Have a passable Strength score (14 and later 16)

And for that much extra investment, the edge it gets is hardly ever more than 10 damage higher across an entire full attack.

Aether Barrage's damage will stay consistent against low AC enemies, or if they get extra bonuses from Weapon Focus or being small sized, while Aether Rounds benefits much more from even a +1 higher chance to hit. The reverse also applies, with Aether Rounds suffering much more from higher AC or accuracy penalties.

But on the whole, not that much of an improvement on the high end when you have to spend much more.

(And on a small sidenote, it's kind of weird that from how I think I read it, your Rapid Shot attack gets to have a full 2d6 damage at level 3, but then gets demoted back down to normal weapon damage at level 4)

Kiton2

2017-07-10, 07:21 PM

Ather Beam needs some more identity before rank 4: While it's wider, Breath gives you the choice of equally long lines or cones (and can switch at will with third purchase). They're both reflex-half as well.e Additionally the second purchase may be nice at level 3, when you're doubling your length... But at level 11 where you're increasing 90 to 120, at the cost of other effects such as Aether Focus? Plus, you can reduce the width to double the length with the third purchase, so two of the ranks are basically range extensions but with a price.

The wind tunnel is nice, though. That gives it some personality, but it needs a real raison d'etre in the middle ranks; even for Breath the second purchase on either feels like a base functionality and not something you purchased an upgrade to obtain.

Any chance at all of ever getting clarifications or modifications (to the bonus types) on Aether Circus? It's been up in the air for a good while now.

MilleniaAntares

2017-07-11, 08:03 PM

I like the changes so far!

The Aether Rounds bookmark sends me to Aether Retaliation.

Taco064

2017-07-11, 10:41 PM

I made a profile just for this lol. This is an amazing class, I love it! Much better than the powered down warlock., which i was using but then we decided to upgrade to this. Just wondering if anyone here has an good magical items that would go well with this class :)

I'm lvl 7 avowed, catfolk. Aether cascade and barrage. Infernal pact. craft wonderous and magic armor feats. Cloak of arachnia for one magic item (love being able to climb the roof and blast away). I have about 10k more to spend, and can also craft where money is not really an option.
Thank you!

Sethis

2017-07-18, 01:09 PM

Aether Beam
We've added a new shape to this update! Aether beam, a dedicated line-attack option, represents a "wide line"—that is, 10 feet wide, much like the lines in 3.5, and should help fulfill peoples' laser needs. Previously, the only lines were aether breath and aether lance, which didn't really support the concept of a massive laser blast, so now we have this for that.

The text of this new spell is a bit confusing. In the book it says:

When you use this shape, you create a line-shaped spread of energy 30 feet long that deals the shape's damage to all creatures within its area (Reﬂex half). Unlike normal line attacks, this shape aﬀects all squares that the line touches,
rather than just the lines it passes through. At caster level 6th and every five levels thereafter, the line’s length increases by 30 feet. If you wish, you may choose to create a shorter line (reducing its length in 5-foot increments)

What exactly do you mean by this? The definition of line in the core is:

A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.

I'm not sure how one is different from the other here. Your intent is clearly to make this a 10 ft wide line, but that's not really indicated by the text.

MilleniaAntares

2017-07-18, 08:18 PM

Tar Trap seems a bit weak in the damage department, according to some people I showed it to.

Forrestfire

2017-07-19, 11:25 AM

The text of this new spell is a bit confusing. In the book it says:

What exactly do you mean by this? The definition of line in the core is:

I'm not sure how one is different from the other here. Your intent is clearly to make this a 10 ft wide line, but that's not really indicated by the text.

In the third paragraph of the spell Area section (CRB p. 214), it states this: "If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell."

Normally, line effects have to fully pass through a square to affect them. Unlike these, aether beam applies to any square the line touches. Here's some diagrams I threw together to help illustrate this; something similar (though ideally both prettier and simpler) will likely end up in the final book:

Here's how a normal Pathfinder line works, for both straight lines and diagonals:

http://i.imgur.com/wRI0uOk.png

http://i.imgur.com/MC2W9YK.png

More of this type of line can be found on page 215 of the CRB. Sometimes, a normal line can be made to have points that are 10 feet wide, but they're... edge cases. I'm sorry.

Meanwhile, the aether beam line affects everything the line touches, regardless of where in the square it crossed it, like so:

http://i.imgur.com/8RUQGGc.png

http://i.imgur.com/vUf3VXw.png

Or, at least, this is my understanding of the rules, based on diagrams from 3.5 and PF. We might need to adjust the wording in general, overall.

Tar Trap seems a bit weak in the damage department, according to some people I showed it too.

We'll look into it. Thanks for the feedback.

MilleniaAntares

2017-09-18, 09:00 PM

One thing that came into my head recently is the forcing your target to make multiple saves (at a penalty) for multiple hits thing with modulations.

I don't have the math on hand, but wouldn't that overcompensate for a lower DC stat?

Perhaps a slightly better alternative would be to have the non-energy type effect of a modulation apply at the end of the avowed's turn, with a penalty equal to to the number of successful hits made. This prevents having to roll multiple times (which can get silly with TWFing, haste-alike, rapid & split shot, etc), while still compensating for the lower charisma (or constitution) that a physical attacker would have compared to a blasted.

Tuvarkz

2017-09-18, 09:30 PM

Aether Grasp and Bucklers: Question, Aether Grasp mentions needing a free hand but it doesn't really specify whether that hand is actually used. So, if you use Aether Grasp while your only free hand has a buckler on it, do you lose the buckler's shield bonus to AC while doing so?

Bhoddhisatva

2017-10-26, 12:55 PM

What kind of damage does the base Aether Pulse actually do? Some type of physical damage? Energy? Force?

By the way the pdf is great! i'm enjoying the heck out of it.

Vhaidara

2017-10-26, 01:44 PM

Base Aether pulse is untyped damage, like Warlock's Eldritch Blast was back in 3.5.

Bhoddhisatva

2017-10-26, 04:19 PM

Base Aether pulse is untyped damage, like Warlock's Eldritch Blast was back in 3.5.

Thanks for the quick reply!

Forrestfire

2017-10-28, 07:03 PM

Hello all. It’s been quite a while, and I’m sorry about that. If you’re interested in the reasons behind this delay and the plans around material in the future, you can find a post about that here. (https://www.patreon.com/posts/15095902)

We do have an update today, though! It’s primarily changes to Avowed 1, with some adjustments made to Avowed 2 to make it line up with the altered rules. Here’re our changelogs for today:

The Avowed

Aether pulse’s base form no longer exists; it has been adjusted to be Aether Blow and Aether Ray. Each avowed gets the first selection of one of these for free at 1st level.
Patronage is no longer a class feature; we’ll be doing a larger section on how avowed can be created by a PC in collaboration with the GM when we go to the final release, but it’s not written right now.
The class skills gained from Pact Skills are now listed as Ex; the skill boost is still Su.
Clause save DC is now properly based on caster level, like pact and aether pulse DCs. It was previously class level by mistake. This is particularly relevant to betrothed, whose clauses are used at half CL unless they and the companion both take the action (this was intended to cut the DC, but didn’t by RAW until now).

Pacts

Court Fey pact's 4th-level ability has had its bonus damage reduced. This turned out to just add way too much potential damage to weapon shape users.
Elemental pact’s attunement now deals a consistent amount of damage (1 per level) instead of dice with powerspikes every 4-5 levels.
Elemental pact’s 4th level ability has been replaced with Elemental Eruption. Now, the attunement includes the ability to ignore immunity to your element, and a new 4th-level empowerment has been added to help elemental choice feel more meaningful.
Elemental pact's 4th level ability got renamed to "Overwhelm" now that the name's open.
Self pact’s bonus attack has been moved to the 4th-level empowerment, and the Cha to saves has been moved to the attunement, but made to scale (capped at +1 per level).

Shapes

Aether Command previously implied that weapons that don’t normally add an ability modifier would get Strength to damage. This wasn’t intended, and we’ve fixed the wording.
Aether Lance does not exist anymore as a standalone shape. It’s now a Beam+weapon shape combination feat. The big reason for this is that as a whole, Aether Lance was overtuned at lower levels as a “weapon” shape, more accurate than other AoEs at higher levels, all while bringing mobility as part of its package. We’ve made sure that each of its aspects (line attacks, line AoEs, higher mobility and charging lines) can still be gotten, but they now come at a cost commensurate to their effect.

Clauses

As part of the Aether Lance rework, we’ve added a new least clause focused on mobility, called Surge.
Lock and Key now applies an Alarm to the object you locked (and can be used without trapping it, solely for the alarm effect).
Inferno Pulse, like the elemental pact’s attunement, now deals 1 point of damage per level on its burn instead of the jagged-scaling dice.
Scream’s shaken effect can no longer escalate other fear effects, or be escalated. As an actionless aura, it’s way too good for it to quickly create Frightened or Panicked conditions on most targets.

Feats

Aether Lance does not exist anymore as a standalone shape. It’s now a Beam+weapon shape combination feat.
Like inferno pulse and the elemental attunement, Lingering Pulse’s damage is now 1 per level.

Other

Aether Blow has been removed; it’s now just a basic shape.
Baleful Infusion has been adjusted. It was generally overly centralizing; it’s been changed to, instead of being a free feat and extra benefits, instead just be a burn-based damage booster.
Alicorn and Decataur FCBs, which previously boosted Aether Lance, have been changed to now boost charge damage (which works with the new Aether Lance).

Matching the Fey pact’s reduction in bonus damage, the Undead pact’s level 4 ability has had its damage reduced.
Abilities that used to deal damage as fractions of a base Aether Pulse have been adjusted similarly to Inferno Pulse. Likewise, references to Aether Pulse damage have been fixed. If you previously had an ability that dealt damage as if by an unshaped Aether Pulse, it likely deals a flat amount of dice (for capstones) or uses Aether Ray/Aether Blow (for most other abilities).
With the changes to the base Aether Pulses, the Aether Skirmisher feat is no longer a thing. It’s been rolled into the basic shapes, Aether Ray and Aether Blow.
With the changes to Aether Lance, the Aether Drive feat is gone as well. It’s just default behavior now.
On the aspirant, we’ve removed the Aether-Venom Stinger and Brutal Gore form modifications. These will be returning once we get a good way to adjust them, potentially alongside a new shape, but right now our focus is on Aether Lance.
On the betrothed companion abilities, the Horns and Stinger no longer have their minor ribbon for Aether Lance.

The bulk of today’s changes are centered around the following three things.

Basic Aether Pulses: After looking at feedback and the results of testing, we’ve made the choice to remove the delineation between the “basic” aether pulse and shapes. Unshaped aether pulses are no longer a thing. To help cut down on some of the weirdness inherent in the shapeless pulses, as well as make the avowed’s rules more consistent and clean, we’ve introduced two “basic” shapes, called aether ray and aether blow. Every avowed gets one of these for free at 1st level on top of their normal shape, and they can now be invested in similarly to other shapes. These ones have a niche of being about mobility with single hits, much like the Aether Skirmisher feat previously allowed, and scaling damage instead of remaining at 1d6/odd level all the way through.

Aether Lance: Aether lance had problems. One of our earlier-designed options, it was initially made as a way to support the fantasy of a single charging line attack… but also added to support line attacks in general, which stretched it in two opposed directions. Its damage was built like an AoE shape, but at the time, we didn’t think about just how much more accurate it’d be than Reflex-targeting AoEs. In addition, from the start, it was much better at low-levels (before full attacks) than melee weapon shapes, to an extreme degree. And that’s before we even touch its free mobility aspects.

When we added aether beam, we took more looks at aether lance as the other primary-line shape, and in the end, decided to redesign it. With that in mind, we’ve split off its concepts; if someone is going to be a line-attack-focused avowed, aether beam (and potentially aether breath for a more varied and less specialized line-blaster) is there. For those who want to make AoE weapon attacks with a mobility perk, we’ve consolidated that effect into the other weapon shapes. Aether Lance is now a combination feat for aether beam and any weapon shape, allowing you to make line attacks with scaling distances, as well as the old “charge followed by line blast,” in a way that will hopefully be more balanced alongside the lower-level weapon shapes, without becoming useless as a tactical tool at later levels.

Elemental Pact: A very common criticism of Elemental-pact avowed is that they’re boring. One of our earliest-made pacts, we revisited it and revised it. It should, hopefully, now support more builds and combat styles, as well as having more thematic effects early on for different elements. Whether you’re an AoE specialist, a weapon-user, or something in-between, Elemental pact should be giving you something interesting to do as you scatter energy around the battlefield and reliably assault foes with your element, instead of just giving you an underwhelming “pierce” effect for energy damage.

With that all said, the changes can be found in the playtests’ respective docs. Here are the links, for convenience’s sake: Avowed 1 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg) and Avowed 2 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLI gc)

One thing that came into my head recently is the forcing your target to make multiple saves (at a penalty) for multiple hits thing with modulations.

I don't have the math on hand, but wouldn't that overcompensate for a lower DC stat?

Perhaps a slightly better alternative would be to have the non-energy type effect of a modulation apply at the end of the avowed's turn, with a penalty equal to to the number of successful hits made. This prevents having to roll multiple times (which can get silly with TWFing, haste-alike, rapid & split shot, etc), while still compensating for the lower charisma (or constitution) that a physical attacker would have compared to a blasted.

The penalty on the saves isn't just to compensate for the lower casting stat—it's also to account for the fact that if you're hitting one enemy multiple times with your pulse, you've given up the option of hitting the entire fight (or even just everyone in melee with you) with a potentially-debilitating effect. If an avowed is trying hard to burst one enemy down, this is meant to support that.

Regarding rolls, that is certainly a potential slowdown issue that we'll take a look at.

Aether Grasp and Bucklers: Question, Aether Grasp mentions needing a free hand but it doesn't really specify whether that hand is actually used. So, if you use Aether Grasp while your only free hand has a buckler on it, do you lose the buckler's shield bonus to AC while doing so?

It's intended to function the same way as grappling without aether grasp. I've done some digging and can't find anything that says you'd lose the AC bonus (grappling isn't a weapon attack), so I would say that you don't lose the shield bonus.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-10-28, 07:45 PM

Is there any rationale behind leaving aether barrage untouched?

I cannot help but think that 14th level looks more boring than most other levels due to being relatively "deader" than the others.

Forrestfire

2017-10-28, 08:12 PM

Is there any rationale behind leaving aether barrage untouched?

Could you elaborate on what you mean by that? What sort of changes are you looking for regarding aether barrage?

I cannot help but think that 14th level looks more boring than most other levels due to being relatively "deader" than the others.

Yeah. We'll likely be coming up with a ribbon of some sort to put there, similar to the old patronage, but not as headache-inducing for the GM.

Drifter S.

2017-10-28, 08:14 PM

I'm gonna be a little knee-jerk about my pet favorite pact and ask: what prompted the change to Self Pact, and was it intended to also nerf the Sub-pacts? Because honestly the change is out of nowhere to me, and makes both Subpacts much less attractive as options, especially since neither one would particularly want it (Body encourages a defensive, reach style. Mind wants to be the 'caster'). The first bonus attack was never very exciting (a penalty on all attacks just for pulse die damage? It's nice, but ehhhh), but was easy to swallow because it was bundled together with other goodies, and I got to look forward to hitting 4th level for that save bonus while Who Help Themselves tided me over.

Roadie

2017-10-28, 08:24 PM

On page 29 of A1, "(see the sidebar to the right)" should presumably be "(see the sidebar to the left)" instead.

Andras Zodon

2017-10-28, 08:26 PM

Surge should probably specify whether or not it provokes AoOs as normal. Based on the Aether Lance origin I get the idea that it doesn't, but movement abilities specify this all the time so it's probably worth adding.

Domar

2017-10-28, 08:44 PM

The damage of Aether Circus is kind of crazy. 600+ against a single target.

32d6+26 (138) per missile with a Orange Prism (Ioun Stone) and max CHA.

138 + 69 * 7 = 621

I like the idea but it needs a redesign.

My biggest problem right now is the full round action for a small area boost. It feels like a shape tax to get to useful and interesting abilities.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-10-28, 09:48 PM

"At 1st level, an avowed gains the 1st selection of aether blow or aether ray, and two other shapes of his choice. At every even - numbered class level, the avowed gains one additional shape selection. Shapes can be selected multiple times, increasing their power each time the avowed does so. Each time the avowed learns a new shape, he can also replace a shape selection he has made with another (in addition to learning the new shape). However, he may not exchange any of the shapes gained at 1st level for a choice of another shape he gained at 1st level."

I am confused by this wording. "[The 1st selection of aether blow or aether ray] ... [and two other shapes of his choice]" is a valid reading, and "shapes can be selected multiple times." Can a 1st-level avowed have aether ray, and then two purchases of aether barrage?

Also, is there any wording stipulating the default range of an aether barrage?

Forrestfire

2017-10-28, 10:29 PM

The other posted questions will take a bit longer to reply to, but regarding pure wording stuff:

"At 1st level, an avowed gains the 1st selection of aether blow or aether ray, and two other shapes of his choice. At every even - numbered class level, the avowed gains one additional shape selection. Shapes can be selected multiple times, increasing their power each time the avowed does so. Each time the avowed learns a new shape, he can also replace a shape selection he has made with another (in addition to learning the new shape). However, he may not exchange any of the shapes gained at 1st level for a choice of another shape he gained at 1st level."

I am confused by this wording. "[The 1st selection of aether blow or aether ray] ... [and two other shapes of his choice]" is a valid reading, and "shapes can be selected multiple times." Can a 1st-level avowed have aether ray, and then two purchases of aether barrage?

Also, is there any wording stipulating the default range of an aether barrage?

You get three 1st-selection shapes at 1st level. "The 1st selection [of aether blow or aether ray, and two other shapes of his choice.]" The wording will be amended to be clearer.
Aether barrage's base range is meant to be 60 feet. It originally used the base aether pulse, and we seem to have never added wording to the first selection to handle that. Thanks for the catch!

Surge should probably specify whether or not it provokes AoOs as normal. Based on the Aether Lance origin I get the idea that it doesn't, but movement abilities specify this all the time so it's probably worth adding.

It provokes AoOs, since it's movement without a statement that it doesn't. The wording will be amended to be state it explicitly.

On page 29 of A1, "(see the sidebar to the right)" should presumably be "(see the sidebar to the left)" instead.

That it should! Thanks for the catch :smallredface:

MilleniaAntares

2017-10-28, 10:51 PM

Welcome back Forrest! Hopefully your new life will go well!

Elemental clause's improved attunement and Elemental Eruption are both great improvements! Are there plans on improving the ascendant's Deluge ability? It seems redundant given the attunement's buff, and is just plain lame in comparison to how good Elemental Eruption is.

For Aether-Venom Stinger and Brutal Gore, perhaps you can use Aether Blow in place of Lance?

The Surge clause: "If this movement it ends somewhere that can't support you"

The bolded "it" should be gone.

Is Surge's movement hindered by difficult terrain as normal?

I think Pest Control's fatigue effect should last for a round. Otherwise, you have to ensure your enemy stays within in, or otherwise it only serves to interrupt a charge or run.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-10-29, 02:24 AM

Aether channel and aether rounds are ambiguous as to how they work with Vital Strike at caster level 4th and above. How do they work with Vital Strike, then?

Can an avowed use Vital Strike through, say, an aether barrage, even if that may be suboptimal for damage at times?

Mezzaluna

2017-10-29, 05:42 AM

Welcome back! It's very helpful to hear how it's nearing proper release, so there's time for a last call to bring attention to things.

First category, some small oddities that popped up with the new changes:

1) Aether Blow looks like using it provokes attacks of opportunity. That feels unintended.

2) Aether Lance, by current wording, might let you teleport past completely solid walls.
"After making this attack, you can move to any unnocupied space within or adjacent to the line, even if there are interposing creatures or obstacles"
If there's a thin adamantine wall, or wall of force, between one of the affected squares and an empty space on the other side, this will let you teleport past it because it's a valid adjacent space with an 'interposing obstacle' that gets bypassed.
(Secondary note: 'unnocupied' is a typo in the original text)

Second category, small issues with existing things:

3) Gravity Pulse inflicting Slow for one whole minute on a single failed save feels way too strong, and can quickly shut down entire martial encounters. I think the flightbreaker effect should last one minute and Slow should only last one round.

4) Exit Stage Right also implies it doesn't need line of effect to teleport somewhere, which feels fairly narrative-warping for an at-will ability that can be used from level 6, and I just want to check if that's intended.

And third category, larger existing issues which I still think are a problem:

5) Area Shapes second selections are all very uninviting across the board: the 'full round action to raise level by 5' ability should really be a feat and not a 'tax' that many characters will never get use out of that they have to take on the way to choosing the more build-enabling third or fourth selection. I've seen a few people, myself included, get dissuaded from investing more into an area shape because the second selection often feels 'wasted' compared to a new selection into something else.

6) Aether Rounds is still too weak compared to Aether Barrage considering the extra investment it needs to work at its full potential. I don't think much between them has changed since my earlier post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22179099&postcount=185) and it makes Aether Rounds a deceptively awkward option.

Bonus category: a maybe-problem that I think is probably too late to do anything about, but still something I've noticed:

7) I'll second the feeling of slowdown issues caused by stacking area shapes and modulation clauses that offer saves: GMs I've played for have sometimes gotten a bit tired of rolling two saves each for four different enemies every time I take a turn. I wonder if there's a possibility it could be streamlined, like merging the saving throws when both the shape and the modulation call for one, or for the case of melee shapes, only prompting a single save at the end of the turn with a penalty based on how many times they were hit.

Best wishes going forward, though! I'm still excited for the eventual final release and very curious to see what else FFS has in store.

calyst

2017-10-29, 08:36 AM

Pact sense is on the table at 2nd but its description says 1st. Also the Elemental Aspirant 4th ability with the changes to the base Atunement the 4th level ability does almost nothing.

AOKost

2017-10-30, 04:58 AM

I know this might seem sub-par to everyone because it wouldn't allow a particular 'element' to advance particularly far, but I would love to be able to learn to control each element up to the equivalent of Avowed level 5 in each element... give the opportunity to advance a level in each element the character wanted instead of forcing a progression in one element.

I understand that even if a character were to choose only 2 elements that they couldn't even make it to the Elemental Ally ability at level 12 for both elements until level 24, but it should still be an available choice...

Quick question... The Self Pacts Strength of Body ability... Does that grant an additional attack to the Aether Flurry? So you would have a Base Attack Progression (not including any modifiers) of +6 / +4 (Unarmed/Aether Blade) / +4 (Unarmed/Aether Blade) / + 1? If so, the the wording of Strength of Body is a little ambiguous and confusing, at least to me since it sounds like it's a repeat ability of Aether Flurry, and the only reason it sounds like it should be in addition to the attack from Aether Flurry is because I know about Monks (and similar classes) Flurry of Blows ability that this seems to try and copy...

I know this might seem like heresy, but you might think about letting Clauses be traded out on a daily basis... It's a mechanic that I've DM'ed before with no regrets. It's still far less versatile than virtually any caster and still a relative glass canon. You should also think about increasing the number of bonus shapes gained by 1 every 4 levels, that way the character gains all of 1 'bonus patron shape'... just a thought to consider.

Dr_Dinosaur

2017-10-30, 11:07 AM

AOKost

2017-10-30, 02:22 PM

That sounds like something for an archetype imo. Reduce ability to specialize or general power in exchange for being able to use all the elements.

Exactly... I could see an 80th level Avowed being able to have the capstone ability of each element... It wouldn't be for everyone, but there's got to be at least 1 character in the multiverse that wants to try...

In my games, using Custom Characters, by level 20 each ability could be 'purchased/learned' for an appropriate amount of experience and/or gold but most people have never heard of Custom Characters let alone played XD

Edit: P.S. I didn't realize this discussion was still ongoing, so I sent my major suggestions directly to Forestfire. It predominantly had to do with either altering the Tinker Archetype or maybe making it into a 'sub/demi archetype' or altering it so the Aether Spark was available to each other archetype as a Shape, and all the rest of the archetype could be purchased through feats at the appropriate level... primarily the level 1 and 4 abilities... I love playing Crafters, and making equipment for my party to save resources and so everyone can get virtually exactly what they want instead of whatever randomly comes along on an adventure or town...

Overall, I absolutely love the Avowed! It's the (almost) perfect successor to the Warlock in my personal opinion. The increase in "Invocations/Clauses" to a minimum of 1 per level was much needed.

I'm actually currently playing an Avowed and really enjoying it with one primary homebrew alteration that my DM and I made without realizing there was the Tinker Archetype... and that was giving the Avowed an ability almost exactly like the Tinkers 4th level ability... Thus I'm playing a Tengu Avowed named Aakoni that has a Self Pact, and is predominantly interested in crafting "shinies"... The groups currently level 6 (and our DM gave us a feat at each level instead of every other). We were given 2 traits, 2 Flaws, and 24 points to build our characters. If anyone's interested in checking Aakoni out, you can find him here: https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1291533

The only other major alteration we made to Avowed was my DM allowed them to alter their chosen Clauses each day. I know some might think this heresy, but I've let others do something similar with Warlocks with no regrets. Both classes are so limited in their selections (the number they may select as opposed to the lists they can choose from which are great! by the way and virtually interchangeable with anything that Warlock may have had that someone likes thematically. This alteration isn't something I would suggest adding to the Avowed as some might feel it's too powerful... But I don't personally see it as such.

I'm not a player that tries to take the limelight, by any means... I usually like taking Clauses that buff/protect my group, and spread my shapes around, currently taking Aether Blade 2 (because of Tengu and Self Pact), Aether Retribution and Aether Blast 2. This opens up more attack options which is always great! And with the Weatherproofing Least Clause to protect anyone/anything I cast it on, I have very little worry about harming my allies or our property, and that will always take up one of my clause slots, and another is Airlock as it's just too handy! Another is Sightseer... Just too useful for everyday use to pass up!

The only Clauses I've taken that were offensive has been Lifeleech and Inferno Pulse (because we leveled up and the DM said 'it's an epiphany type event when you level, so it's similar to leveling in Skyrim (you could level virtually any time) and Inferno Pulse is what was needed at that moment and will be traded out on my next long rest for something more buff/debuff or utility). I took Lifeleech because it always helps to have some kind of temp HP, especially if I can spread it around to my group! The only other Clause I currently have is Reveal Your Secrets which I could easily switch out for anything else since I could simply Use Magic Device to use a Scroll to cast Identify on anything I might want to identify... Though it is useful to RPing a merchant/craftsman type of character.

I know my choices aren't the optimal, and I intended them not to be to give other players (especially the new players) time to adjust and have fun.

If I've gone into too much detail as to the decisions I made in building my character and they whys, I'm sorry to have taken up your time. I'm not the average player. I play to the groups need more than anything.

Mezzaluna

2017-11-01, 06:11 PM

Some other small problems with the Old One's pact attunement:

"While in this form, you cannot take any actions (not even free actions) other than speaking, using telepathy, and movement."

I think this means that if you're prone when you disperse, nothing says you stop being prone once you're a cloud, and you can no longer take the action to stand up from prone, so your move speed is limited and you're kind of stuck. Ditto for Grappled, Pinned, Entangled, or similar things.

Creatures within or adjacent to your space while you're in this form become dazzled.

Is this meant to include yourself?

And finally, while minor, it's a bit awkward how the healing doesn't factor in extra HP from other sources, like Toughness, Psionic Body, or most relevantly, Enhanced Idealisation.

Adam1949

2017-11-06, 03:10 PM

Powerdork

2017-11-07, 02:52 AM

With the change to basic shapes, there is now no shapeless aether pulse for Quicken SLA to apply to. Likely other shapeless aether pulses/aether pulse base damage references exist, such as in Mystic Reflexes.

Roadie

2017-11-11, 03:40 AM

One random request I have: to add a "the creature does not age while under this effect" clause to slumber for eternity. The name just isn't accurate at the moment!

MilleniaAntares

2017-11-11, 09:00 PM

I'm concerned with the change of how Unshaped Aether Pulses are now their own unique shapes; specifically, whereas before you could "upgrade" the unshaped pulses by spending feats (and an Avowed has between 8 and 17 bonus feats to spend on them, depending on their Pact and if they've VMC'd or not), now you're required to spend your Shapes Known/Upgraded slots, of which you still only have the amount from before. It feels like it's harder and harder to justify using certain shapes (or rather, to justify either going all-in on a handful of shapes or spreading out to dabble in many) when you are so constrained by how many you can afford to spread out among the options. There's still no feat that allows you to gain extra Shapes Known/Upgraded, which limits this even more.
I too would like an Extra Shapes feat.

In lieu of that, I think it would be nice to gain at least one shape each avowed level, with a level requirements for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th shape options to prevent getting them before level 6. It would "only" increase things from 3 all-in shapes to 5; though that could be ridiculous with betrothed.

calyst

2017-11-12, 12:01 AM

Elemental Aspirant ability does nothing with changes to attunement from base.

MilleniaAntares

2017-11-12, 03:56 AM

Aether Wrath should probably specify that the effect is created from the bottom of the cylinder in the base description.

The change to the base Self Pact means that the subpacts are a bit wonky:

Both Body and Mind Pacts do not gain +charisma to their saves.

Mind Pact retains Aetheric Flurry, which is slightly at odds with the nature of the pact... which was intended to be a bit more ranged, at least back when there were pact shapes.

Von Krieger

2017-11-14, 02:50 AM

On page 32 "Aquatic Affinity: You gain a swim speed, can breath underwater, and can walk on water." Ought to have breathe instead of breath.

Kymera

2017-11-14, 05:04 PM

Related to Metool's point above, RAW as of the current (version 16) playtest document, the Draconic Infusion ability of the Dragon-Avowed doesn't actually work, at least not the aether pulse part, since aether blow was changed from being an ACF to aether blow and aether ray being shapes, one of which you get at lvl1, so now even if you have an aether pulse, you can't use it without a shape, but Draconic Infusion still gives you a pulse, but no shape.

Mezzaluna

2017-11-20, 07:22 PM

Something I just noticed:
"Unless noted in the ability, a pact sense does not work through barriers, and requires line of effect to function."

The Elemental pact sense doesn't have that exception, so an Earth Elemental Avowed can't sense underground, which seems odd.
Unless they sense the absence of earth from the creature displacing it I guess? Though that wouldn't tell them about the creature and they arguably might not have line of effect to examine the tunnel properly.

(Some small clarification on "Generally, you can always sense creatures in the area; assume that have some example of your element in their bodies" would be useful too for fire and earth, even something simple like fire = body heat and earth = iron in blood, so a GM would have a better basis on deciding which creatures like maybe incorporeal ghosts would be exempt)
(Also the missing 'they' in quoted sentence is a grammar problem in the original)

Mezzaluna

2017-12-01, 08:33 PM

(Hopefully a double post is okay for a different topic almost two weeks later!)

Betrothed:
"If the companion is mortally wounded (reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, or outright killed by an effect), they vanish, retreating body and soul into the psychic link between them and their betrothed. The companion cannot truly die while their betrothed remains alive, but takes one week to recover before they can manifest again, appearing adjacent to the betrothed when they do so."

This seems... a bit overkill. Depending on the narrative pace, one week in game can remove the companion from weeks and weeks of play sessions.

If this was the penalty for actually dying it would make a bit more sense, but 'reduced to 0hp or fewer' instead of 'unconscious at 0 then disappear at negative CON' can be pretty hard to completely avoid, like from an unlucky critical hit.

I think either the mortally wounded threshold needs more leeway, or the recovery time needs to be shortened to a day.
Maybe both, but one or the other works fine.

WarDragon

2017-12-03, 07:58 PM

I noticed the Quicken Spell-Like Ability thing as well. Should probably say it can only be used with Ray or Blow?

What's an Ancestors pact?

Would the damage over time from Fire version of Elemental Eruption stack with Inferno Pulse?

Split Loyalties almost seems worthy of an archetype, ala Crossblooded Sorcerer. Just to clarify, you can take it after level 1, correct?

Seems really odd to me that the Body subpact loses so much of the physical enhancements from the base Self pact, though Strength to AC is certainly nice.

KillingAScarab

2017-12-06, 09:18 AM

I think this text from Avowed 1 is missing a word or two.

In addition, when a creature succeeds on a saving throw against one of your aether pulses or clauses, or when you miss an attack roll or fail a combat maneuver check against a creature with such an ability, you may have that creature take 1 point of damage per class level (no save). This damage is the type that you chose for your attunement. You can only affect a given creature once per round with this effect.No ability is specified prior to the bolded text.

Also from Avowed 1, the Least clause Volksgeist includes Perform (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perform) as one of the skills which receives the benefits, including making untrained checks if you normally couldn't. The entry for Perform has the following text:

Trained A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities.Would Volksgeist allow for the use of Bardic Performance in a category they have no ranks in? The skill itself can be used untrained.

Something I just noticed:
"Unless noted in the ability, a pact sense does not work through barriers, and requires line of effect to function."

The Elemental pact sense doesn't have that exception, so an Earth Elemental Avowed can't sense underground, which seems odd.
Unless they sense the absence of earth from the creature displacing it I guess? Though that wouldn't tell them about the creature and they arguably might not have line of effect to examine the tunnel properly.From a thematic standpoint, being able to sense through a body of the same material seems correct. However, this is a level 1 class ability. I feel it would not be appropriate to grant tremorsense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Tremorsense_Ex) to 1st level characters for earth & water or blindsight (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/#TOC-Blindsight-and-Blindsense) for air. This part of the ability seems intended to grant a thematically-limited blindsense. It also gives a thematically-narrow detect magic.

(Some small clarification on "Generally, you can always sense creatures in the area; assume that have some example of your element in their bodies" would be useful too for fire and earth, even something simple like fire = body heat and earth = iron in blood, so a GM would have a better basis on deciding which creatures like maybe incorporeal ghosts would be exempt)
(Also the missing 'they' in quoted sentence is a grammar problem in the original)I think the idea behind using the elemental pact sense to detect creatures is based on a view that everything obeys a classical elements system. Pathfinder has a cosmology (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/the-planes) with extraplanar creatures such as dust mephits (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/mephit/mephit-dust/), which would be a combination of air and earth, and which might specifically not be detectable for an avowed with a pact with a water or fire elemental. Meanwhile, the generalization works from an assumption that creatures native to the Material plane are made of different balances of everything from the inner planes: positive & negative energy, air & earth, fire & water. This would require some re-working in a setting with five East Asian elements or something different, but D&D has long had this assumption of 4 Western elements, then positive and negative energy, which Pathfinder inherited.

For ghosts, there's a dedicated spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-undead/) which will find them. Otherwise, I feel like this should be left for the DM to decide, or at least not this particular 3rd party material. If you had to break them down by what elements and/or energies make them up, you could consistently treat them as you would any native to the Ethereal plane in your game, but with a definite presence of negative energy. Perhaps you want to say earth is rarer on the Ethereal plane for your game, while perhaps I would want to say all 4 elements are present, but in such faint amounts as to not be detectable over normal ranges. Similarly, a DM would need to decide how the ability works for creatures from the Shadow Plane and the Astral Plane.

Von Krieger

2017-12-06, 08:39 PM

No ability is specified prior to the bolded text.

I think that's referring to the aether pulses/clauses?

So you do the damage when a creature successfully saves or you miss an attack or fail a maneuver check.

Powerdork

2017-12-06, 11:38 PM

No ability is specified prior to the bolded text.

As Von Krieger is trying to explain, "when you miss an attack roll or fail a combat maneuver check against a creature with such an ability" can be read to highlight "when you miss an attack roll with such an ability" (carrying the subject of "one of your aether pulses or clauses" from the previous clause) rather than "a creature with such an ability".

It's still worth correcting, though, to "when you miss an attack roll or fail a combat maneuver check against a creature as part of using such an ability", or some such.

The entry for Perform has the following text:

That feels plain erroneous on the part of Paizo: Nothing in the bardic performance entry mentions trained or ranks, and it might simply be a remnant of the 3.5 version, where bards needed Perform ranks to use their performance.

KillingAScarab

2017-12-07, 01:05 AM

That feels plain erroneous on the part of Paizo: Nothing in the bardic performance entry mentions trained or ranks, and it might simply be a remnant of the 3.5 version, where bards needed Perform ranks to use their performance.I own a 1st printing copy of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, and it originally did contain an error referencing minimum performance ranks. However, the text on d20PFSRD.com is from the errata. I checked the Pathfinder Reference Document and Perform (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/skills/perform.html#perform) has that text under "Special." The referenced Bardic Performance (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/classes/bard.html#bardic-performance) does have two cases in which specific performance skills are referenced: countersong and distraction.

Countersong (Su): At 1st level, a bard learns to counter magic effects that depend on sound (but not spells that have verbal components). Each round of the countersong he makes a Perform (keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing) skill check.

Distraction (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to counter magic effects that depend on sight. Each round of the distraction, he makes a Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory) skill check.

None of the other entries for Bardic Performance reference specific performance skills. These two seem to be the entirety of "some" of the Bardic Performance abilities, unless there is 3rd party material of which I am not aware.

So... can a theoretical Avowed x/Bard 1 without ranks in perform use Volksgeist and then use countersong or distraction?

Another question from Avowed 1, chapter 2, page 16, the control elements clause for air elemental pacts states

In each round that you concentrate on this effect, the winds bear you aloft (even if you're outside of the currently affected area), allowing you to fly up to your speed as part of the action to concentrate.
Which speed would that be? If it is the character's land speed, what category is the maneuverability? If the clause offers another fly speed, that and the maneuverability should be stated. If this refers to a pre-existing fly speed, such as that gained from the ascension class ability, should a better fly speed (e.g. if take flight clause is already active) be allowed to be substituted?

Looking over the Celestial pact, the empowerments have some references to the atonement spell which look to require some clarification. Purifying radiance indicates it can be used for the "restore cleric or druid powers" portion of atonement without the 2500 gp offering, but in the atonement spell itself, that use of the spell is intended to be performed by "another cleric of the same deity or another druid." Is the intention that a multiclass avowed could use the clause to accomplish this, even if they aren't at a sufficient class level to cast the spell? What about an avowed who, while having a psychic bond with a celestial, actually worships the same deity or reveres nature?

Cleansing fire states that a target may meditate for 1 hour to become any alignment they wish. The redemption or temptation portion of atonement doesn't offer as wide of a range of alignment choices: you may remain your current alignment or you may change to the alignment of the caster. Cleansing fire also doesn't state if the user of the clause must be present during that meditation or if the subject is somehow aware of the conditions they would need to fulfill for this on their own.

Cleansing fire also seems to count as a magical alignment change during that 8 hour period spent with the helpless condition. Could another avowed with the celestial pact (or perhaps the same one) use purifying radiance on the same subject to affect the reverse magical alignment change portion of atonement?

The rune of protection clause contains the following:

You can use this clause whenever an ally you can see within 30 feet of you would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points. That ally is instead reduced to –1 hit points (and stable), then transported to a safe location, as if by the wish spell.
This wording indicates that if someone is staggered (0 hit points), they can then be changed to dying (-1 or fewer hit points). It might be better to change the viable targets to those which, "would be reduced to negative hit points."

The aether wrath shape states that the benefit of the 4th selection is that you may choose to extend the cylinder down from the top. However, according to the aiming a spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/Magic/#TOC-Aiming-a-Spell) portion of the magic rules, this is the normal behavior for cylinder shaped areas.

Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape.
...
When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.
To go with the castle wall example in the document, this should be able to be accomplished by a 6th level avowed, or a 2nd level avowed using the benefit of a second selection of aether wrath and a full-round action. I can't think of many castle walls which exceed 100 feet in height. I'm also not very familiar with spells which use a cylindrical area. Control winds, however, is a 5th level druid spell that has one. It's an extended effect (10 minutes per caster level), and the range and radius increases equally with caster level, but the cylinder is only 40 feet high (perhaps coincidence, but this is equal to the range if caster level was 1). I'm fine with having significantly smaller radius than height, but as it is the origin point of the area of effect the height probably should not outstrip the clause's range.

Pacts

Court Fey pact's 4th-level ability has had its bonus damage reduced. This turned out to just add way too much potential damage to weapon shape users.As it is now, this empowerment does not seem to be limited to attacks with weapons or weapon-like spells. I could see the additional damage being read as applying to the conditional damage of the soul shackle clause if the subject were either pinned or flanked while 5 feet away from the anchor point. If this damage is also intended to be based upon precision, you may want to borrow language from the rogue's sneak attack class feature. Though, I do see you are allowing this damage to be applied even if the avowed is not one of the flanking pair.