Building a viable Ogre

[Stryyke]

In one campaign I'm in, we have mandatory LA. We are pretty low level right now, so I'm guessing short term Ogre would be fine, if not a tad OP. But I don't want a character that becomes obsolete in the mid teens, or even lower teens. What's the best way to build an Ogre to be useful for the long haul?

[Tiri]

What does 'mandatory LA' mean?

[Darklady2831]

What does 'mandatory LA' mean?

I'm guessing it means that he must take a race with Level Adjustment.

[Stryyke]

Correct. It's a monster campaign, so we must take positive LA monsters. And we have 4 mandatory LA. So Ogre would be LA 2 + 4HD = 6ECL So it would qualify.

[Jack_McSnatch]

A few levels of barbarian. One of the alternate ones. I remember seeing one that added a stacking +1 to crit range on a charge. Compatible with keen or improved crit, and you get it at level 7. It was ALSO compatible with the whirling frenzy pounce barb. Take greataxe, end up with an 18-20/x3 crit range with a 3d6 damage cause large. Multiclass as you please. Scout makes your charges nasty, since skirmish applies to all attacks made on that movement. Barb/duskblade going rage mage is a fun, destructive build with a handful of out of combat options. You aren't "tier 1" but it's fun to play.

[Shinn]

I know it is homebrewed, but have you checked oslecamo (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1467.0)'s Ogre racial class instead of a classic one ? It's "only" 1d8 HP per level, but it scales pretty well, as you get a free stacking Monkey's Grip feat every 5 levels, +10 feet for every movement each 3 levels, a free combat maneuver check every time you strike, and a (hopefully scaling) Natural Armor.
Plus the obvious proficiencies, it makes it a pretty strong dip for a melee character, but as it's homebrewed, ask your DM first.

[Stryyke]

Skirmish Barb. That sounds like fun. How does he overcome DR and resistances? Can he be viable against flying targets or invisible targets?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Skirmish Barb. That sounds like fun. How does he overcome DR and resistances? Can he be viable against flying targets or invisible targets?
Turns out I wrote the (hand)book (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473666-New-Scout-Handbook) on the Scout! A Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 is a great method for activating Skirmish. I'd go ahead and do a full Swift Hunter build-- Ranger can get your TWF without needing Dex, and Wisdom is the one mental stat you still have going for you. DR is not likely to be a problem when you're a Barbarian, much less when you're a Barbarian throwing a fistful of extra d6's at the problem. Flyers and invisible targets are a problem for any melee, but... well, Scout gets Blindsense/Blindsight eventually, but not until high levels-- you'll probably just use items, though if you do go Swift Hunter you can do a bit with Ranger spells.

[DrMotives]

I've always liked the feat "Large and in charge"; it requires combat reflexes as a feat tax, but that's not a terrible choice. It then gives you a 5' knockback on every AoO you make, so smaller enemies without reach can't approach you very easily. Combined with a skirmish build, you'd be like a living cue ball on the battlefield, bouncing everywhere and knocking all the enemy away.

[Troacctid]

Half-ogre is generally going to be more effective for pretty much any build. For the same LA, they get everything you're really looking for from a full ogre, but they can get class levels instead of the crappy racial hit dice.

[Stryyke]

Half-Ogre is a no-go. I have to use the 4 LA with either LA or monstrous HD. Half-Ogre is only 2 LA, so it would not be a valid build. Now perhaps if I went Half-Ogre and took a template . . .

I guess what I'm really asking is how to make a melee character viable for epic levels. Let's start with that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Half-Ogre is a no-go. I have to use the 4 LA with either LA or monstrous HD. Half-Ogre is only 2 LA, so it would not be a valid build. Now perhaps if I went Half-Ogre and took a template . . .

I guess what I'm really asking is how to make a melee character viable for epic levels. Let's start with that.
EPIC levels? Uh... be a spellcaster. What levels are you expecting to play at mostly?

[Stryyke]

We are starting LVL 5, but it's a long campaign, uncapped. He expects we'll get into the epic levels at some point. So between 10 & 20 for the bulk of the time, I expect.

Can you link me an official half-ogre race? There seem to be a dozen out there, and I need to make sure I get one that's properly balanced. I'm thinking a half-dragon template on a half-ogre could be fun. As a large creature, it would even get a fly speed, allowing the melee build to take to the skies.

[Troacctid]

Well, start by not getting ahead of yourself. Epic levels are a long way away. :smallwink:

If you want to scale up to epic, you need spellcasting—especially 9th level spellcasting—because it's just more powerful than anything else you can be doing. (Epic destinies are okay, but they don't really come close to spells.) For a martial character, this usually means something like Ur-Priest. Divine Crusader can be okay too, especially if your domain's 9th level spell is something broken like shapechange, wish, miracle, or gate. (Transformation, for example, is a great domain.) Another option is to multiclass as a spellcaster. Taking a level of cleric and going into Fist of Raziel or Knight of the Raven, for example, can be effective.

The half-ogre race is in Races of Destiny. It is +2 LA. If you want flight, though, half-fey is generally better than half-dragon.

[Stryyke]

I see that advice a lot. I've done all the magic builds up through epic levels, and I really just want to do melee. Is there no way for a melee character to keep up?

[Tiri]

I see that advice a lot. I've done all the magic builds up through epic levels, and I really just want to do melee. Is there no way for a melee character to keep up? Sadly, no. You could just fluff your magic as being extraordinary physical feats, though.

[Coidzor]

Half-Ogre is a no-go. I have to use the 4 LA with either LA or monstrous HD. Half-Ogre is only 2 LA, so it would not be a valid build. Now perhaps if I went Half-Ogre and took a template . . .

I guess what I'm really asking is how to make a melee character viable for epic levels. Let's start with that.

Half-Minotaur is +1 LA, as is Feral. A Feral Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre could be fun.

Mineral Warrior is another +1, and Divine Minion can be +1 or +2 and offer some utility.

Dark would add some stealthiness to it for +1 LA. Quasi-lycanthrope would give some fair DR and possibly the ability to sorta play things up like a Changeling for +1 LA. Draconic isn't super great but it's also a +1 LA template that could be used to round things out.

Half-Fey and Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)are pretty good +2 LA templates, although the saves for their SLAs/PLAs are Charisma based.

Primordial Giant would turn things around and make your Ogre-type character more suitable to becoming a caster as is generally obligatory as things start getting Epic.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, part of the answer is going to depend on optimization levels in your group-- it's one thing to keep a Barbarian around if the Wizard is just blasting, but another if they're getting into the whole god-wizard thing.

As a compromise, how about some Psychic Warrior? You've got scads of strength and can have a fine Wisdom. You can make a pretty nasty melee brute with a PsyWar. Totemist could also be fun and viable at high levels.

[barakaka]

Seconding Totemist. It'll give you a bunch more options, and feels tribal. You can even do the Barbarian dip for pounce if you like, though only a dip if you take this route.

Your high strength means Manticore Belt could be pretty high damage at range. As well, an option I always liked was the Landshark Boots soulmeld paired with really high strength. If at any point you get flight and your DM thinks it's not possible to count as making a jump, then get an Air Walk spell cast on you, or a somewhat lenient DM will let Airstep Sandals count, but you'll need to spend a feat for that. All 4 attacks use the same roll, so find a way to get a rend, and as long as you hit, you do rend damage in addition to 4 claw attacks.

[Ywvbevlin]

Look even fighters d barbarian is good at epic you just need the Epic feats.

[JNAProductions]

Look even fighters d barbarian is good at epic you just need the Epic feats.

It really depends. If the Wizard is just blasting, then yeah, you're fine. If the Wizard is chain-gating Solars... Not so much.

[Ywvbevlin]

It really depends. If the Wizard is just blasting, then yeah, you're fine. If the Wizard is chain-gating Solars... Not so much.

A fighter can kill solars

[JNAProductions]

A fighter can kill solars

How many? Because note I said Solars. Plural.

[Ywvbevlin]

How many? Because note I said Solars. Plural.

Well if theres a lot it wont matter if the fighter is like level 50

[JNAProductions]

Well if theres a lot it wont matter if the fighter is like level 50

I would like to see a Fighter-a pure martial, at least-that can take on, say, 10 Solars.

[Ywvbevlin]

I would like to see a Fighter-a pure martial, at least-that can take on, say, 10 Solars.

level 50......

[JNAProductions]

Yes. And Solars have Miracle.

Edit: Made a new thread, to avoid cluttering this one. It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509466-Level-50-Fighter-Vs-Solar&p=21509987#post21509987).

[Coidzor]

Could probably afford to do a mix of Barbarian, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, and that one psychic-incarnum PrC I think the psychic conversion of Soulcaster?

IIRC, there's even a psycarnum feat+power combo that allows for infinite PP for lower cost effects.

[JNAProductions]

Soul Manifester is the class, I believe.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Make sure you go first so you can wreck things before your wizard literally sends your enemies to hell? Scout is great for being the rogue's backup. Hang with him and go on epic level thievery escapades. Ask your wizard to be nice so you and the rogue can do some flanking. One way or another, if you have epic level casters and you aren't, you're gonna feel like you're falling behind.

But you're starting at level 5 so don't think that far ahead. Scout/barbarian is great for a while, even a 1 level dip. Really, just have fun with it. One way or another, if you hit epic levels, your casters will have you to thank for getting them through that awkward phase where they can be killed by a house cat.

[Tiri]

Could probably afford to do a mix of Barbarian, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, and that one psychic-incarnum PrC I think the psychic conversion of Soulcaster?

IIRC, there's even a psycarnum feat+power combo that allows for infinite PP for lower cost effects.

Psychic Warrior and Totemist can be pretty similar in terms of fighting style, though, so there's not much point merging them.

[Stryyke]

Personally, I like the idea of psychic warrior. That sounds like exactly what I need. Psychic warrior Ogre. My DM has this thing about psi-stuff, but maybe I can talk him into it. It would definitely be interesting. And with the psi-aspect, I would stay relevant longer. Only problem is that -4 to INT.

Don't know much about totemist, so I'll go check that out. Thanks guys.

[Tiri]

Only problem is that -4 to INT.

Psychic warriors use Wisdom for manifesting, so you should be alright.

[John Longarrow]

We are starting LVL 5

If you are starting at Lvl 5, is the DM cool with you having a 6th level character? You pointed out that you'd be ECL 6 as an ogre.

If you want a really unique melee build look at going Pixie. Get at least one shadow hand stance, the feat shadow blade, and weapon finesse. Become the spiked chain wielding blender of death after grabbing combat reflexes. Your AC will be really high, your ability to hit really high, and dex to damage means you'll be hitting for consistent decent damage. Plus its just fun being the little, invisible, flying damage dealer!

[Troacctid]

Personally, if I were in a game like this, I'd probably play a marrulurk. Those things are sweet.

[Stryyke]

If you are starting at Lvl 5, is the DM cool with you having a 6th level character? You pointed out that you'd be ECL 6 as an ogre.

If you want a really unique melee build look at going Pixie. Get at least one shadow hand stance, the feat shadow blade, and weapon finesse. Become the spiked chain wielding blender of death after grabbing combat reflexes. Your AC will be really high, your ability to hit really high, and dex to damage means you'll be hitting for consistent decent damage. Plus its just fun being the little, invisible, flying damage dealer!

Yes. Ogre is ECL 6, but we get 4 of that as free LA. So essentially instead of starting as class level 5, I'll be starting at class level 3.

As for Pixie, I would love to; however, one of the other players did a pixie earlier. When I asked about the possibility of doing another, the DM shot it down without thought. He said that pixies are rare, and even rarer in a city-based setting; so he couldn't see having 2 in town so close together.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Personally, I like the idea of psychic warrior. That sounds like exactly what I need. Psychic warrior Ogre. My DM has this thing about psi-stuff, but maybe I can talk him into it. It would definitely be interesting. And with the psi-aspect, I would stay relevant longer. Only problem is that -4 to INT.

Don't know much about totemist, so I'll go check that out. Thanks guys.
Good luck! Make sure he knows about the "can't spend more pp than your ml" limit; that's the missing rule that usually makes people upset.

[Pugwampy]

Is there no way for a melee character to keep up?


Keep up with what ? That myth about the Spell Chucker being more powerful and supposedly obsoleting Butt Kicker at higher levels ? That is totally dependent on the DM style of play . I for one indulge a play style that makes everyone expect fighter types look like trash .

The martial character has highest AC , HP and ATT . AC has a kind of limit cap but HP and ATT do not .

Even if they take over , they had to get there first . Perhaps they are gods now but they started off as 4 hp worms with one spell only . Feel free to remind them of that. Have a level one duel with the bigmouth .

Kay lets assume wizards do take over the damage at lvl 15 or so because for some reason you have no magic weapon or armour or goodie to compensate or even obsolete the wizard chump . <bad DM>
I suppose go tank , be the walking wall with your tower shield . Let the wizards hide behind you .
Thats a core game element for any level ? Yes

[SangoProduction]

Half-Ogre is a no-go. I have to use the 4 LA with either LA or monstrous HD. Half-Ogre is only 2 LA, so it would not be a valid build. Now perhaps if I went Half-Ogre and took a template . . .

I guess what I'm really asking is how to make a melee character viable for epic levels. Let's start with that.

add a template

[Darrin]

Half-Ogre is a no-go. I have to use the 4 LA with either LA or monstrous HD. Half-Ogre is only 2 LA, so it would not be a valid build. Now perhaps if I went Half-Ogre and took a template . . .


Half-Ogre + Half-Fey would be nifty. Or Phrenic.



I guess what I'm really asking is how to make a melee character viable for epic levels. Let's start with that.

Entropic (LA +2) Half-Ogre.
Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 8.

Take Assume Supernatural Ability and/or Metamorphic Transfer. Wild shape into Phasm (MM), then Alternate Form into a Silthilar (Lords of Madness). PAO yourself into something more interesting, like a hydra, horned devil, or mountain troll (MM3). Warp Flesh is an (Su), so if you can make sure the duration is permanent, it can't be dispelled. Wild Shape into a black pudding and split yourself off into an army. Pick up Dark Speech (BoVD) and turn your army of duplicates into a hivemind with epic-level Sorcerer casting.

[John Longarrow]

Yes. Ogre is ECL 6, but we get 4 of that as free LA. So essentially instead of starting as class level 5, I'll be starting at class level 3.

As for Pixie, I would love to; however, one of the other players did a pixie earlier. When I asked about the possibility of doing another, the DM shot it down without thought. He said that pixies are rare, and even rarer in a city-based setting; so he couldn't see having 2 in town so close together.

OK, then for a different fun build. Half troll (LA 4) Mongrelfolk warblade. You'd have 5 levels in Warblade. Between race and template you get +10 to CON and +6 on STR. With a 16 CON to start you'd be getting 8 extra HP per level so you'd have a sick number of HP. You'd also avoid the racial HD issue.

Down side is explaining how your dad got a troll drunk.

[Stryyke]

OK. Hypothetical. Supposing that the Ogre can get a 100ft (average) fly speed, and a means to procure True Sight. Neither are terribly difficult to get with items or template. What is the biggest thing holding the fighter back? Assuming optimized but not cheesy play by the casters.

[Troacctid]

OK. Hypothetical. Supposing that the Ogre can get a 100ft (average) fly speed, and a means to procure True Sight. Neither are terribly difficult to get with items or template. What is the biggest thing holding the fighter back? Assuming optimized but not cheesy play by the casters.
Probably its dead levels and janky class features that make you question why you took the class in the first place?

[Ezekiul]

OK. Hypothetical. Supposing that the Ogre can get a 100ft (average) fly speed, and a means to procure True Sight. Neither are terribly difficult to get with items or template. What is the biggest thing holding the fighter back? Assuming optimized but not cheesy play by the casters.

Definitely need to look into getting immunity to mind-affecting (Mind Blank or other such things), maybe some spell resistance (or very high saves), and evasion.

[Stryyke]

Definitely need to look into getting immunity to mind-affecting (Mind Blank or other such things), maybe some spell resistance (or very high saves), and evasion.

Evasion should be easy to get with a quick dip into any number of classes. A helm can be made to eliminate mind-affecting. SR and high saves would be more difficult to get cheap. I'm assuming you are referring to save-or-suck or save-or-die. SR tends to get outstripped, so it stands to reason that high saves would likely be the best bet. I don't think that Will is something you would have to worry about with the helm, so just reflex and Fort. Fort should be ok saves from being a fighter, so maybe just a boost to those. Reflex tends to be more save-for-half type saves. So high Con and HP may help with that. And some SR could be attached to the armor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

OK. Hypothetical. Supposing that the Ogre can get a 100ft (average) fly speed, and a means to procure True Sight. Neither are terribly difficult to get with items or template. What is the biggest thing holding the fighter back? Assuming optimized but not cheesy play by the casters.
A near-complete inability to contribute in ways beyond "I charge and hit it really hard with a stick?"

[Stryyke]

A near-complete inability to contribute in ways beyond "I charge and hit it really hard with a stick?"

Isn't that on the player? If properly built, even a Storm Giant can be thief. I'm not being a smart-alec, I am legitimately curious about why fighters are considered so bad. Sure they can't summon cross dimensional monsters, or grant wishes; but wizards aren't going to waste spell slots to pick Joe Blow's lock or beat down a low HD monster. Even if a Wizard CAN do the same thing, doesn't mean they will always be prepared to do the same thing.

P.S. Go Steelers

[Troacctid]

Isn't that on the player? If properly built, even a Storm Giant can be thief. I'm not being a smart-alec, I am legitimately curious about why fighters are considered so bad. Sure they can't summon cross dimensional monsters, or grant wishes; but wizards aren't going to waste spell slots to pick Joe Blow's lock or beat down a low HD monster. Even if a Wizard CAN do the same thing, doesn't mean they will always be prepared to do the same thing.

P.S. Go Steelers
Fighters are bad because they have janky class features and half their levels are dead. It's an underpowered class. That's all.

There are worse classes. Samurai. Soulknife. Swashbuckler. Dragon Shaman. But Fighter is still down there. It is poorly designed and underpowered.

[Stryyke]

But who takes 20 levels of the same class? The question is making a non-magic melee combat specialist viable, not necessarily a fighter 20.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Isn't that on the player? If properly built, even a Storm Giant can be thief. I'm not being a smart-alec, I am legitimately curious about why fighters are considered so bad. Sure they can't summon cross dimensional monsters, or grant wishes; but wizards aren't going to waste spell slots to pick Joe Blow's lock or beat down a low HD monster. Even if a Wizard CAN do the same thing, doesn't mean they will always be prepared to do the same thing.

P.S. Go Steelers

The problem is they don't have the option to try. Wizards are good because if the player wants to do a thing the class will likely be able to provide, but fighters do not do that. I honestly consider the wizard to be on par with fighter in terms of garbage design (for wildly different reasons mind you) but at least it let's you do things in multiple situations and fulfills the promise on the tin: wizards are good at magic but fighters are not good at fighting.

[Darrin]

Isn't that on the player? If properly built, even a Storm Giant can be thief. I'm not being a smart-alec, I am legitimately curious about why fighters are considered so bad.


Some of it, yes, some of it, no.

The problem with fighters, at least from a "Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards" perspective, is they are horribly inflexible with anything that doesn't involve damage. And while in most cases this is fine in a group of casual optimizers or in a group of mostly Tier 3/4's, you said you were looking for a melee build that stays relevant up into Epic levels... and that just isn't possible with a Fighter without completely reworking a lot of the deep mechanical structures in the game rules. Even in groups where the players aren't trying to optimize a bunch of big shiny "I Win" buttons, the D&D rules really start to shake themselves off the rails once you get past level 15 or so.

Hence why I suggested Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 8. You have a solid melee build with a whole bunch of other options at your disposal that can do a wide variety of interesting things outside of combat (and the possibility to get some Tier 2 stuff if you get cornered into a potential TPK).

In most games, it's not a concern because most players are trying to have fun rather than deliberately trying to break the game, and most of the time they agree to follow Wheaton's Law to a reasonable extent. On this forum, however, a lot of posters tend to assume you're trying to dial up the Optimization level to just a *hair* under the point where you get books thrown at your head. This particular form of advocacy is not always appreciated in the same spirit in which it is given.

[The Glyphstone]

The problem is they don't have the option to try. Wizards are good because if the player wants to do a thing the class will likely be able to provide, but fighters do not do that. I honestly consider the wizard to be on par with fighter in terms of garbage design (for wildly different reasons mind you) but at least it let's you do things in multiple situations and fulfills the promise on the tin: wizards are good at magic but fighters are not good at fighting.

Fighters are good at fighting. The problem is that they are only good at fighting, and nothing else. Their sole skill set consists of using a weapon to deal HP damage to an enemy; any situation that does not involve dealing HP damage to an enemy, or one with circumstances that prevent them from doing so (of which there are many), renders them crippled. A Wizard is good at 'the task I chose spell slots for today', which can be a staggeringly wide variety of things (including Fighting), and completely customizable after 8 hours of sleep, and preventing the Wizard from using magic is immensely more difficult than preventing the fighter from attacking.

[Stryyke]

Actually, I'm doing a Wildshape Ranger --->MMF pseudodragon right now. So I'll be looking for something different. Nice idea, though.

[Segev]

You're playing an ogre? I suggest going cleric into War Hulk. Use your spells to buff yourself and your party on the whole, and enjoy that you're a Huge (when you want to be) over-the-top-strong meleeist with a minimum of 3/4 BAB despite 10 levels of +0 BAB.

[Stryyke]

Fighters are good at fighting. The problem is that they are only good at fighting, and nothing else. Their sole skill set consists of using a weapon to deal HP damage to an enemy; any situation that does not involve dealing HP damage to an enemy, or one with circumstances that prevent them from doing so (of which there are many), renders them crippled. A Wizard is good at 'the task I chose spell slots for today', which can be a staggeringly wide variety of things (including Fighting), and completely customizable after 8 hours of sleep, and preventing the Wizard from using magic is immensely more difficult than preventing the fighter from attacking.

I really don't see anything that a fighter can't do. Diplomacy? Sure. Overcome DR? Sure. Bypassing SR? No problem. Take a hit? Yep. Teleportation?! There are plenty of pretty cheap items to give them both cross-country or tactical teleportation. Flying?! Eh. Can be overcome during character creation; but there are also plenty of items that allow varying amounts of flight capabilities. Get into something locked? Sure, either with brute force or a few skill points.

Obviously any build that can grant wishes will inherently be more powerful than any other build, but wizards don't run around wishing things dead.
All that has to happen to make a wizard completely worthless is for them to swallow a bug. In a true army vs army situation, with hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of troop, Wizards would be good for 10 minutes. The other 8-10 hours would still have to be steel on steel.

[Segev]

I really don't see anything that a fighter can't do. Diplomacy? Sure. Overcome DR? Sure. Bypassing SR? No problem. Take a hit? Yep. Teleportation?! There are plenty of pretty cheap items to give them both cross-country or tactical teleportation. Flying?! Eh. Can be overcome during character creation; but there are also plenty of items that allow varying amounts of flight capabilities. Get into something locked? Sure, either with brute force or a few skill points.

Obviously any build that can grant wishes will inherently be more powerful than any other build, but wizards don't run around wishing things dead.
All that has to happen to make a wizard completely worthless is for them to swallow a bug. In a true army vs army situation, with hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of troop, Wizards would be good for 10 minutes. The other 8-10 hours would still have to be steel on steel.

We could spend time arguing with you about this, but it really doesn't matter. You want to play what you want to play, so we'll help you with that.

While I just recommended cleric->war hulk, I should point out that you could get away with fighter/cleric or barbarian/cleric going into it, and just get yourself a staff that has divine power in it rather than worrying about being able to cast it, yourself. (Divine power is important because it beefs your BAB up to cleric levels, which War Hulk otherwise destroys.)

[Stryyke]

We could spend time arguing with you about this, but it really doesn't matter. You want to play what you want to play, so we'll help you with that.

While I just recommended cleric->war hulk, I should point out that you could get away with fighter/cleric or barbarian/cleric going into it, and just get yourself a staff that has divine power in it rather than worrying about being able to cast it, yourself. (Divine power is important because it beefs your BAB up to cleric levels, which War Hulk otherwise destroys.)

I'm not arguing, I'm trying to figure out whether building an Ogre that fears magic can be a viable build past lvl 15. I really want to know. So if you have a response, please do so.

I'll definitely consider cleric -> war hulk. I love trying fun builds.

[Troacctid]

But who takes 20 levels of the same class? The question is making a non-magic melee combat specialist viable, not necessarily a fighter 20.
Well you asked about fighters. Fighter is a bad class. There are other classes that are good. *shrug*

[Stryyke]

Well you asked about fighters. Fighter is a bad class. There are other classes that are good. *shrug*

Sorry. I wasn't clear. I was using the word "fighter" as a generalized term for melee combatant.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. I was using the word "fighter" as a generalized term for melee combatant.

There are solid options for hitting things that synergize well with ogre and provide out of combat options. Personally I recommend totemist. It is pretty front loaded which is nice and it's natural weapons scale with size IIRC so bonus damage for you!

[Stryyke]

There are solid options for hitting things that synergize well with ogre and provide out of combat options. Personally I recommend totemist. It is pretty front loaded which is nice and it's natural weapons scale with size IIRC so bonus damage for you!

Totemist is a popular suggestion. I read up on it last night, but I have a really important question before I seriously consider it. Magic of the Incarnum seems to indicate that the Incarnum exists. Is that something that is widely accepted? Something that exists in all realities? Or is it something like Saidin and Saidar, existing only in a specific universe.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Incarnum is made of the wisps of unborn souls. Any material that had souls had incarnum.

[Stryyke]

I'm checking with my DM now. If he gives me the go-ahead, walk me through how it works. I know you soulmeld Arcanum to various chakra slots that roughly correspond with the body parts on which you wear gear. But how would you build an Ogre Totemist melee specialist?

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not arguing, I'm trying to figure out whether building an Ogre that fears magic can be a viable build past lvl 15. I really want to know. So if you have a response, please do so.

I'll definitely consider cleric -> war hulk. I love trying fun builds.

It really, really depends on the op level of your group. A melee brute is going to be good at one thing - dealing damage, with any other capabilities coming from his items. In a low-op group at lower levels, you'll be punching stuff in the face while the Wizard casts Maximized Fireballs. In Epic levels, you'll be punching stuff in the face really really hard while the Wizard casts Maximized Meteor Swarms. You can still be viable there, because you're not being invalidated - extra monster HP just means you both are needed to beat them down.

It's if the Wizard chain-gates Solars, or spams Chained Death By Thorns, or Shapechanges into a Zodar, that 'punching stuff in the face really really good' stops being a viable means of contributing. So the best answer is to work with the group.

Incarnum is a great way to eliminate your Christmas Tree dependency, though.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm checking with my DM now. If he gives me the go-ahead, walk me through how it works. I know you soulmeld Arcanum to various chakra slots that roughly correspond with the body parts on which you wear gear. But how would you build an Ogre Totemist melee specialist?

This my preferred totemist handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287304-danzibr-s-Totemist-Handbook and should be a good start on how to build a melee totemist.

[Stryyke]

It really, really depends on the op level of your group. A melee brute is going to be good at one thing - dealing damage, with any other capabilities coming from his items. In a low-op group at lower levels, you'll be punching stuff in the face while the Wizard casts Maximized Fireballs. In Epic levels, you'll be punching stuff in the face really really hard while the Wizard casts Maximized Meteor Swarms. You can still be viable there, because you're not being invalidated - extra monster HP just means you both are needed to beat them down.

It's if the Wizard chain-gates Solars, or spams Chained Death By Thorns, or Shapechanges into a Zodar, that 'punching stuff in the face really really good' stops being a viable means of contributing.

I think I would consider our group to be medium-high optimization. We are all 20+ year players, but the DM discourages major optimization by killing any character who breaks the game. Not a DM kill, but he will start throwing enemies that prey on the weakness of the strongest character, which inevitably leads to them dying.

[Troacctid]

Actual good non-spellcasting melee base classes include totemist, warblade, and crusader.

[The Glyphstone]

I think I would consider our group to me medium-high optimization. We are all 20+ year players, but the DM discourages major optimization by killing any character who breaks the game. Not a DM kill, but he will start throwing enemies that prey on the weakness of the strongest character, which inevitably leads to them dying.

I'd still suggest 'working with the group' to be the best way to ensure you stay relevant as a brute. It's mostly on the casters' shoulders to ensure they don't render you redundant, but if you are all good friends and have been playing a while, that shouldn't be an issue. They can buff you and debuff the enemies instead of going straight for the save-or-dies.

[Stryyke]

I'm wondering if an Ogre can play a totemist without knowing he's a totemist? For flavor, I'd like to play this Ogre as afraid of magic. For instance, would it be possible for him to mentally soul meld and apply essentia without realizing he's doing it. When he thinks about defense, then the defensive soul melds become stronger. When he's in a rage, the offensive soul melds become stronger. I rolled the stats, and they aren't good. 16, 16, 12, 8, 8, 8. The 16's go into STR and CON. And the 12 probably goes into dex, especially since Ogre's receive a -2. But that means that my CHA and INT will probably be 4, and my Wis will probably be 6.

[Troacctid]

He'd probably notice the glowing magic boots on his feet and the extra arms popping out of his chest. Soulmelds aren't invisible. :smallwink:

[Stryyke]

He'd probably notice the glowing magic boots on his feet and the extra arms popping out of his chest. Soulmelds aren't invisible. :smallwink:

Yea. I guess if my hands started glowing, I would guess something is up. LOL. But mechanically, is it possible. I might be able to swing things to work. Maybe he doesn't do any soul melds that give extra limbs, rather he only does soul melds that buff. Then I could play-off the glowing hands as him just being use to it. Maybe?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yea. I guess if my hands started glowing, I would guess something is up. LOL. But mechanically, is it possible. I might be able to swing things to work. Maybe he doesn't do any soul melds that give extra limbs, rather he only does soul melds that buff. Then I could play-off the glowing hands as him just being use to it. Maybe?
Should be workable. Many melds are more internal skill boost type things. You can also really play up the totemic aspect of the thing, worshipping and emulating the assorted magical beasts.

[Coidzor]

You could play it off as instinctual, I suppose, much like the way that a sorcerer instinctively taps into their native magical abilities.

Both Totemist and the Martial Adepts (Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade) are very friendly to dipping, too. So they don't even need to be the bulk of levels in a build to contribute meaningfully.

Have 20 HD and take a level of Crusader? In many ways you count as an 11th level Crusader.

[Stryyke]

I'll continue to read up, but what kind of totemist soul melds, would make my Ogre survive and even flourish past 15?

[Stryyke]

You could play it off as instinctual, I suppose, much like the way that a sorcerer instinctively taps into their native magical abilities.

Both Totemist and the Martial Adepts (Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade) are very friendly to dipping, too. So they don't even need to be the bulk of levels in a build to contribute meaningfully.

Have 20 HD and take a level of Crusader? In many ways you count as an 11th level Crusader.

Do you have a melee build with those classes, and any others that could be useful? Start lvl 3, end lvl 20.

[Troacctid]

I'll continue to read up, but what kind of totemist soul melds, would make my Ogre survive and even flourish past 15?
Well, again, you will probably want to be a half-ogre, not an ogre. I would recommend the Shadow, Half-Fey, or Phrenic template. Shadow gives you total concealment in any lighting conditions other than full daylight, essentially making you invisible and untargetable all the time, which is pretty nice, and it also comes with fast healing, evasion, and the ability to plane shift once per day. Half-Fey gives you wings, immunity to enchantments (very handy for a class with a low Will save), and some very powerful spell-like abilities that let you beguile your enemies' minds. Phrenic gives you a lot of handy psi-like abilities that can provide additional options for you both in and out of combat—for example, defensive precognition, empty mind, and tower of iron will are great defensive boosts, body adjustment lets you heal yourself, fission creates an exact duplicate of yourself to essentially allow you to move twice per turn (very overpowered), and you also gain the ability to crush people's minds with psionic dominate and psychic crush, and deal AoE damage with ultrablast and energy current.

Anyway, that said, here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WPjKqtbtYLpf6fhKU1sj8w40E5EIN0jX2Ypdl8VTxys/edit#gid=0&fvid=702972810) are all the totemist soulmelds, sorted by slot, which should be helpful.


Do you have a melee build with those classes, and any others that could be useful? Start lvl 3, end lvl 20.
For Warblade: Warblade 20
For Crusader: Crusader 20

While they multiclass well, they're also very strong as a single-class build, and if you're going all the way to 20, their capstone abilities are definitely desirable. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Do you have a melee build with those classes, and any others that could be useful? Start lvl 3, end lvl 20.

Danzibr's Totemist Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287304-danzibr-s-Totemist-Handbook)has a few sample builds that show how Martial Initiators and Totemists can mix, IIRC.

I don't have one ready-built to share right now, though, no.

The breakpoints, as I recall, for Totemist are level 2, 6, 8, and then to a lesser extent 12 and 16. Though it'd be faster to just check them in the handbook yourself.

You can make a perfectly viable build out of Barbarian 2-3 (Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce, Wolf Totem for Improved Trip, maybe Urban Brawler for Improved Unarmed Strike and the ability to TWF with Unarmed Strikes explicitly), Totemist 2-6, and then Warblade the rest of the way, focusing on stances and boosts that give extra damage on their blender of attacks. Or dipping Barbarian 1, Cleric 1(Travel Domain, probably), Totemist 2, Warblade 1, and then proceeding with something like that Wildshaping Ranger > MOMF build with a splash of Warblade every so often.

That's all off the cuff, of course, so grains of salt and all that jazz.

[Stryyke]

Wow. I didn't think any combat-focused build was going to 20. Interesting. I'll definitely check those out.

As for your first point, I'm going to guess that phrenic is out, since my DM has this thing against psi. I'll check out shadow. But half-fey. Seems a bit too meta-gamey. An angry ogre with butterfly wings just doesn't suit what I'm going for. I was told unequivocally that half-dragon is out. So I could go half-ogre, half-fiend. Same ECL as Ogre but with crap-tons of bonuses. Would certainly fit a CHA 4 character. LOL I think, though, that flight is going to have to be an important part of his longevity. If you can think of another way to gain at-will flight, I would consider it. I'm afraid my DM is going to think I'm min/maxing if I make a half-ogre half-fiend. But it certainly would fit the crazy dumb brute looking for blood archetype I'm looking for.

[The Glyphstone]

There's always just plain old Winged for +2 LA. And those wings can be shaped however you want.

[Stryyke]

There's always just plain old Winged for +2 LA. And those wings can be shaped however you want.

Wow. I must have overlooked that? What book is that from? My DM will ask. And what is the speed and maneuverability.

[Troacctid]

You can get at-will flight by binding a Pegasus Mantle to your shoulders if you really need to. But it's competing with some really good shoulder binds like the Phase Cloak, so it's not the ideal solution. Another way is to become a dragonborn, which will allow you to fly with average maneuverability for +0 LA; however, you will have to pair it with an acquired template, as it will overwrite any inherited racial abilities. Mulhorandi Divine Minion allows you to shapeshift at will as a free action, including into a flying creature; turn into a hawk to fly, then turn back into a half-ogre to drop a heaping dose of pain on your enemies.

Don't take the Winged template, it's bad.

Half-Fey wings are not necessarily butterfly wings, they're simply insect-like. Cockroaches and dung beetles have wings too!

[Grod_The_Giant]

It depends on what you want to emphasize. I'd say Totemist probably holds up better at high levels-- both can rack up lots of damage and have plenty of combat versatility, but the Totemist can do so much more than most initiators. Melds give you stuff like senses (telepathy, tremorsense, scent, blindsense, detect magic), mobility (swim, climb, flight, teleportation), and skills (mostly basic physical and sensory stuff); a level of two of Incarnate makes things even better-- you get way more skill-boosting melds, a bunch of utility, even some good defensive options (immunity to mental control, reduced ability damage, ranged concealment, even bonus health).

At any even level, you can take a level of a ToB class, because every two non-ToB levels boosts your initiator level by 1, letting you access higher level maneuvers. 5th level would be a good one; there are some really good 2nd level maneuvers. 7th wouldn't be bad either.

So... maybe something like Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 1/Warblade 1/Totemist +4/Incarnate +1/Totemist +10.

[Troacctid]

One of the other nice things about Mulhorandi Divine Minion is that since it's wild shape, you can take feats like Dragon Wild Shape to turn into a dragon, or Aberrant Wild Shape to turn into, like, a beholder, or whatever the good abominations are. Also, all of your soulmelds still work in animal form. And you also get access to the Force of Nature (http://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) Epic Destiny, which is nifty as hell.

[Stryyke]

One of the other nice things about Mulhorandi Divine Minion is that since it's wild shape, you can take feats like Dragon Wild Shape to turn into a dragon, or Aberrant Wild Shape to turn into, like, a beholder, or whatever the good abominations are. Also, all of your soulmelds still work in animal form. And you also get access to the Force of Nature (http://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) Epic Destiny, which is nifty as hell.

Not that I don't see the benefits of shapechanging, but my current character will be doing that. I don't really want to do it on this next character.


Half-Fey wings are not necessarily butterfly wings, they're simply insect-like. Cockroaches and dung beetles have wings too!

Interesting. The template I read specifically said butterfly wings. Can you link me to the template you are referencing?

[LordOfCain]

Wow. I must have overlooked that? What book is that from? My DM will ask. And what is the speed and maneuverability.
I believe that Winged is from Savage Species, but it is commonly perceived as bad.

[Stryyke]

It depends on what you want to emphasize. I'd say Totemist probably holds up better at high levels-- both can rack up lots of damage and have plenty of combat versatility, but the Totemist can do so much more than most initiators. Melds give you stuff like senses (telepathy, tremorsense, scent, blindsense, detect magic), mobility (swim, climb, flight, teleportation), and skills (mostly basic physical and sensory stuff); a level of two of Incarnate makes things even better-- you get way more skill-boosting melds, a bunch of utility, even some good defensive options (immunity to mental control, reduced ability damage, ranged concealment, even bonus health).

At any even level, you can take a level of a ToB class, because every two non-ToB levels boosts your initiator level by 1, letting you access higher level maneuvers. 5th level would be a good one; there are some really good 2nd level maneuvers. 7th wouldn't be bad either.

So... maybe something like Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 1/Warblade 1/Totemist +4/Incarnate +1/Totemist +10.

I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding the soul melding. I'm guessing that the totemist has a personal totem on his person. And can soulmeld either to a body part or the totem. I'm a bit confused about what the difference is.

[Stryyke]

I believe that Winged is from Savage Species, but it is commonly perceived as bad.

It might be seen as bad, but I could do a winged half-ogre for free. All I would be losing is optimization. I would still start at full class levels.

[Troacctid]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

"Wings (Ex): At 2nd level, a half-fey grows insectlike wings (usually similar to those of a butterfly) and may use them to fly at up to twice her base land speed with good maneuverability."

Usually similar to a butterfly, but not necessarily.

I'd strongly advise against Winged, because it is so much worse than other templates you could be taking. Dragonborn does it for +0 LA instead of +2.

[Stryyke]

"Usually similar to a butterfly, but not necessarily."

I was looking at the forgotten realms template. Thanks for that.

Also, my DM has been vehement that only full dragons exist in his world. So dragonborn is most likely out. Are there any species that have magical flight, rather than winged? Or a soulmeld that could give me at-will flight?

[ZamielVanWeber]

It might be seen as bad, but I could do a winged half-ogre for free. All I would be losing is optimization. I would still start at full class levels.

Winged gives a fly speed with manuverability based on dex, +4 dex +2 Wis. It's really meh. See about phrenic. It is pretty cool and buffs your lagging mental stats. If you ask politely the worst that can happen is he says no.

[Stryyke]

Winged gives a fly speed with manuverability based on dex, +4 dex +2 Wis. It's really meh. See about phrenic. It is pretty cool and buffs your lagging mental stats. If you ask politely the worst that can happen is he says no.

He has already said no. He said only creatures with natural psionic ability can have psionics of any kind. Since I'm probably going half-ogre, psi is going to be out. 99% probability.

[Troacctid]

The Phrenic template makes you naturally psionic. In fact, it literally has "Naturally Psionic" as one of the abilities it grants you.

[Stryyke]

It depends on what you want to emphasize. I'd say Totemist probably holds up better at high levels-- both can rack up lots of damage and have plenty of combat versatility, but the Totemist can do so much more than most initiators. Melds give you stuff like senses (telepathy, tremorsense, scent, blindsense, detect magic), mobility (swim, climb, flight, teleportation), and skills (mostly basic physical and sensory stuff); a level of two of Incarnate makes things even better-- you get way more skill-boosting melds, a bunch of utility, even some good defensive options (immunity to mental control, reduced ability damage, ranged concealment, even bonus health).

At any even level, you can take a level of a ToB class, because every two non-ToB levels boosts your initiator level by 1, letting you access higher level maneuvers. 5th level would be a good one; there are some really good 2nd level maneuvers. 7th wouldn't be bad either.

So... maybe something like Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 1/Warblade 1/Totemist +4/Incarnate +1/Totemist +10.

Ok. I had to jump a few links, but I found it.

[Stryyke]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

"Wings (Ex): At 2nd level, a half-fey grows insectlike wings (usually similar to those of a butterfly) and may use them to fly at up to twice her base land speed with good maneuverability."

Usually similar to a butterfly, but not necessarily.

I'd strongly advise against Winged, because it is so much worse than other templates you could be taking. Dragonborn does it for +0 LA instead of +2.

Thanks for the link, but I'm just not "feeling" half-fey.

[Coidzor]

I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding the soul melding. I'm guessing that the totemist has a personal totem on his person. And can soulmeld either to a body part or the totem. I'm a bit confused about what the difference is.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-153196.html MoI for dummies

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0 Incarnum Handbook
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=576.0 Ditto

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide Incarnum and YOU.

[Stryyke]

I am really feeling the Totemist. It sounds perfect for my build. I'm still thinking half-ogre half-fiend is the direction I'm going. Thanks for all the help, everyone.

[The Glyphstone]

Totemist really is a lot of fun.

[Darrin]

Some templates to consider...

LA +1

Mineral Warrior (FR Underdark). Frequently tops the list of templates that are "worth it". +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, NA +3, DR 8/adamantine, burrow speed. Outside the mental penalties, not too many downsides (flight can be gained after applying the template), although some DMs may get persnickety about the material component and XP cost for casting the spell. At lower levels, it may freak out some inexperienced DMs who can't even scratch you with mundane weapons.

Feral (Savage Species). Another forum favorite, usually mentioned in the same breath as Mineral Warrior. +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, NA +6, claws, improved grab, pounce, rake, and rend. However, this one has some wording issues... first, there's some argument that your special attacks are determined by your racial/monster HD rather than your total HD. Second, while it gives Pounce, the text says it only works on the first round of combat, which is not so useful as the standard Pounce (Ex). Some DMs will handwave these issues, but you may want to avoid this one because there's likely to be a lot of overlap with Totemist. Then again, if all you want are the ability score increases, might be worth a look.

Lolth-Touched (MMIV). Upside: +6 Str, +6 Con, immunity to fear. Downside: alignment change to Chaotic Evil, and this annoying spider goddess is all in your bizness trying to order you around.

Dark (Tome of Magic). Very popular among the sneaky types, although more commonly acquired via magic item (Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis). +10' speed, cold resistance 10, Hide +8, Move Silently +6, and Hide in Plain Sight (Ex). While this isn't exactly a good template for a frontline melee character, I find the idea of a large-sized ogre hiding in plain sight right in front of his enemies to be highly amusing. That and a Totemist with Kruthik Claws cranked up with max essentia can be really, really good at sneaking.

Chameleon (Underdark). Not a lot here for melee, but the Hide +10 and Move Silently +4 pairs up nicely with Dark. You get a Climb speed and a tongue attack... which doesn't do any damage, but could have immense potential for comic relief.

Draconic (Draconomicon). +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, NA +1, claws. No real downside (other than not being particularly interesting), and a good "filler" template if you've got leftover LA and aren't sure what else to take.

LA +2

Half-Vampire (Libris Mortis). Lots of interesting stuff here: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, Na +2, cold/electricity resistance 5, DR 5/silver or magic, Fast Healing 1, slam, Improved Initiative, and one of three possible special attacks. Even better, though... oozes with Goth flavor. Then again, it might look silly on half-ogre chassis.

Entropic (Planar Handbook). I mentioned this earlier because I was looking for something that changed type to Outsider (for various polymorph shenanigans) but had more manageable LA than Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend. Looking it over now... +2 Con, +2 Cha, Negative Energy Ray looks kinda interesting, but the Negative Energy Aura is going to be a downer with the rest of the party.

Celestial/Fiendish (MM). Smite 1/day, some SR, DR, and energy resistance, which feels a little underpowered for LA +2, but might be worth considering as a fallback option if you can't find anything else. That and I find the idea of a Celestial Half-Ogre attempting to explain his parentage a little amusing.

Insectile (Savage Species). Mostly used for adding four more arms to a Multi-Weapon Fighting build, although changing type to aberration might be useful for other template shenanigans (such as Spellwarped). +4 Dex, +2 Wis, climb speed, tremorsense, wide vision.

Multi-Headed (Savage Species). Not exactly LA +2, because it also explicitly adds +2 Racial HD, but might be worth a look if you want to stand out as a very unusual half-ogre. +2 Con, NA +1, Improved Initiative, and Combat Reflexes. Also, loads of "Odd Couple" commentary, because of course one is going to be fussy and the other one is going to be a slob.

Dustform (Sandstorm). Mostly frequently abused in a recursive loop with the Incarnate Construct template (LA -2 ... yeah, that's a MINUS sign), cranking up +4 Str and NA +5 with each iteration. It tanks your Dex and removes your Int/Con scores, so not really recommended without Incarnate Construct, which returns your type back to Giant and gives you a fresh reroll on your Con and Int scores (4d6, drop the lowest).

Reptilian (Savage Species). Helps you qualify for the Scaled Horror PrC, which... is not quite as interesting as the name suggests (although it might be a good way to pick up Improved Grab). +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, NA +2 and... ok, this is odd... "gains a claw attack". Really? Just one? That's kinda... unsymmetrical. Huh.

Saint (BoED). It's a good template for LA +2, but not worth the headache of qualifying for Sainthood and jumping through all the alignment hoops would be a huge nightmare.

Shadow Creature (Lords of Madness). This template shows up in a couple 3.0 sources, but the Lords of Madness version is the most recent 3.5 update. +50% speed, cold resistance, Shadow Blend (Su), and a grab-bag of SQs that includes Evasion (for Fochlucan Lyrist entry) and Plane Shift 1/day (plane of shadow only). This template was much more interesting when it changed your type to Magical Beast.

[Coidzor]

One point about Draconic when it comes to a potential Totemist PC is that some soulmelds require the dragonblood subtype, and, IIRC, the Draconic template should give that subtype. Some of them are nice, although one of the main draws is somewhat obviated by already having claws.

[Segev]

One point about Draconic when it comes to a potential Totemist PC is that some soulmelds require the dragonblood subtype, and, IIRC, the Draconic template should give that subtype. Some of them are nice, although one of the main draws is somewhat obviated by already having claws.

Half-Ogre, Half-Dragon should do that, and also give him those wings.