Level 50 Fighter Vs. Solar

[JNAProductions]

Didn't want to get too off-topic on another thread, so new one! Level 50 Fighter, built as a Fighter (and not as a knock-off wizard using UMD) versus a Solar. Pretty simple. Let's assume Elite Array for starting stats.

[Zanos]

Full PC WBL?

[ZamielVanWeber]

What deities(if any) should we call for the solar? Those added domain choices could make a difference.

[JNAProductions]

Full PC WBL?

Yes. So obviously the Fighter can win via WBLmancy, but I'd like to know if an actual Fighter can do it, not a Fighter pretending to be a Wizard with their money.

Obviously what entails that is highly subjective, but some stuff (flight, antimagic to nullify caster advantages) is a-okay, other stuff (using spells yourself via wands or staves) is not.


What deities(if any) should we call for the solar? Those added domain choices could make a difference.

I dunno. Let's stick to the standard ones presented in the SRD.

[Malroth]

With full WBL and ignoring the pointless "don't pretend to be a wizard" rule the Lv 50 fighter has it in the bag, Without these things the fighter does the same thing he's done for the past 49 levels, hope the enemy gets into melee range and then attempts to hit it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Straight, 50 levels of fighter or just 50 levels without any native spellcasting?

Not that it matters much if it's standard WBL vs standard treasure for the solar. Even the extraordinary power of a full cleric casting can be overcome by the literal millions of GP worth of magical trinketry that a level 50 pc is swinging around.

[Zanos]

Yes. So obviously the Fighter can win via WBLmancy, but I'd like to know if an actual Fighter can do it, not a Fighter pretending to be a Wizard with their money.

Obviously what entails that is highly subjective, but some stuff (flight, antimagic to nullify caster advantages) is a-okay, other stuff (using spells yourself via wands or staves) is not.
I figured, but full PC wealth still makes room for enough stack-able passive stat increases that the Fighter can be immune to most spells and have numbers too high to really touch. Assuming the Solar is using the standard spell loadout, and not a crazy optimized selection.

[JNAProductions]

I figured, but full PC wealth still makes room for enough stack-able passive stat increases that the Fighter can be immune to most spells and have numbers too high to really touch. Assuming the Solar is using the standard spell loadout, and not a crazy optimized selection.

Alright, let me add in another limitation-SRD Magic items only. No custom work.

Edit: And couldn't the Solar just spam Greater Dispel Magic for a while?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Straight, 50 levels of fighter or just 50 levels without any native spellcasting?

Not that it matters much if it's standard WBL vs standard treasure for the solar. Even the extraordinary power of a full cleric casting can be overcome by the literal millions of GP worth of magical trinketry that a level 50 pc is swinging around.Don't forget that every solar has innate access to the Team Solars cheesery. If you're fighting one solar, you're fighting all of them.

[JNAProductions]

Don't forget that every solar has innate access to the Team Solars cheesery. If you're fighting one solar, you're fighting all of them.

Explain, please?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yes. So obviously the Fighter can win via WBLmancy, but I'd like to know if an actual Fighter can do it, not a Fighter pretending to be a Wizard with their money.

Obviously what entails that is highly subjective, but some stuff (flight, antimagic to nullify caster advantages) is a-okay, other stuff (using spells yourself via wands or staves) is not.

WBL is needed since the fighter needs an epic, evil weapon to overcome regeneration (with the added benefit of overcoming DR) as well as a way to deal with an enemy with fly 150 ft (good), and thinking on those lines honestly the WBL of a L 50 character would probably beat a solar, regardless of chassis. That is A LOT of money and you can only spend it on so much, so naturally your everything is going to be pumped to the Nine Hells and back.

[Zanos]

Explain, please?
Chain gating, probably. That's why I assumed that the Solar was using the default statblock and spell layout.

Does anyone know how to calculate 50th WBL? DMG 2 stops at level 40 with 13,600,000.

[GilesTheCleric]

I figured, but full PC wealth still makes room for enough stack-able passive stat increases that the Fighter can be immune to most spells and have numbers too high to really touch. Assuming the Solar is using the standard spell loadout, and not a crazy optimized selection.

Solars have SM 7 and Polymorph at-will. How many summoned SM 7 creatures would they have with them? And, we should probably limit Poly forms to MM1.

Edit: Celestial elephant LG
Avoral (guardinal) NG
Celestial baleen whale NG
Djinni (genie) CG
Elemental, Huge (any) N
Invisible stalker N
Slaad, red CN

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Explain, please?Solars have access to 9th level cleric spells, meaning one solar can gate in another solar can gate in another solar can gate in another solar...

[Zanos]

Solars have SM 7 and Polymorph at-will. How many summoned SM 7 creatures would they have with them? And, we should probably limit Poly forms to MM1.
No summoned creatures, because organization is Solitary or Pair.

[JNAProductions]

No summoned creatures, because organization is Solitary or Pair.

That only applies if the Fighter can one-shot the Solar before the Solar sees him.

[GilesTheCleric]

That only applies if the Fighter can one-shot the Solar before the Solar sees him.

Good point. If the Solar starts with no buffs within the fighter's charge range, then the fighter really only needs a +10 (on average) initiative to win the fight, given ubercharger damage at level 10+. What are the conditions for the fight?

[Jack_McSnatch]

Well how cheesy is the Solar getting? Are we making the fighter god fight the entire Heavenly Host, or 1 really well built Solar?

[JNAProductions]

Really? I did not know uberchargers were that damaging. (Of course, the fighter would need an Epic Evil weapon to overcome their regen.)

Let's assume they start 300' away on an empty field, knowing their goal is to kill the other.

[GilesTheCleric]

The Solar only has 209 HP and DR 15. Once you have a few PA multipliers, the damage goes up pretty fast. All you really need is a few feats, as much +str as you can get your hands on, and a Brilliant blade. If we're sticking to core everything for the fighter, then it's trickier.

Edit: If you're building a dps character against foe HP benchmarks, 209 HP is about equal to the level 15 benchmark for average HP (225), and is below the level 10 benchmark for max HP (305). Of course, if you're benchmarking according to dealing 1/4 of a foe's HP in one turn rather than all of it, then the solar can be one-shot if you're benchmarking for max HP at 20 (858).

[Coidzor]

Good point. If the Solar starts with no buffs within the fighter's charge range, then the fighter really only needs a +10 (on average) initiative to win the fight, given ubercharger damage at level 10+. What are the conditions for the fight?

So Improved Initiative > Superior Initiative gets +8. A +4 Dex Item gets the rest of the way.

Or Improved Initiative and a +12 Dex Item.

[Jormengand]

I mean, sure, if you assume that the fighter is allowed ro act sensibly but the Solar isn't, the fighter will win.

[Malroth]

Lesser Drow Hit and Run Fighter, Feats: Dire Charge, Travel Devotion, Dash, Wild talent,Speed of thought, Blinding Speed, Air Heritage, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper Planar Touchstone (catelogues of enlightenment{celerity domain}). Equiped with Boots of skating, a swift leg graft, feather wings graft, a Third Eye graft can reach a target 310 Feet away and full attack in an Antimagic field Ignoring All DR for Weapon Damage +105 +2xstr +1xDex per hit and miss only on a nat 1 even on other iteratives, however give the solar initative or 15 feet farther starting position and there's absolutely no way Speedy Mc Fighter can possibly win.

[GilesTheCleric]

So Improved Initiative > Superior Initiative gets +8. A +4 Dex Item gets the rest of the way.

Or Improved Initiative and a +12 Dex Item.

There we, go, problem solved. How much WBL is that?


Really? I did not know uberchargers were that damaging.

Let's look at the damage for two level 20 fighters. One (we'll call her Figher1) has used all of the most commonly available +str buffs, approximated by my graphs in the wands link in my sig. She has a 38 str. The second (Fighter2) uses the "minimum" str -- start with 18, add +5 for levels, and +6 for an enhancement item, for 29. We'll give her a free +1 on that to make the numbers nicer, so 30.

At 20, the fighter has +20 BAB. Give them a +1 Brilliant Energy Unholy greatsword, and say it counts as epic.

Fighter1: +1 Greatsword +35 melee [2d6 + 2d6 (unholy) + 22 (1.5*str, +1 enh)]
Fighter2: +1 Greatsword +31 melee [2d6 + 2d6 (unholy) + 16 (1.5*str, +1 enh)]

The solar has a 14 touch AC, so they need to reliably get +5 to-hit in order to hit the solar more than 50% of the time. Both fighters can PA for -20, since that leaves them with more than +5 to-hit. Since they're using the greatsword in two hands, they get 40 damage out of it.

Fighter1, PA-20: Greatsword +15 melee [4d6 + 62] avg. 76
Fighter2, PA-20: Greatsword +11 melee [4d6 + 56] avg. 70

Now, we can start adding some things to increase damage. We'll be using additive multipliers, since damage is a game number, and not a real-world number. There's a lot of them available:
Battle Jump UE 42: "double damage" by falling 5 feet onto your foe as a charge.
Leap Attack CAd 110: "double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat" when you make a 10'+ jump
Headlong Rush RoF 164: "double damage" on a charge
Power Lunge Drag303 61: "double your normal str modifier in addition to the attack's damage" on a charge
Valorous Weapon UE 55: "double damage"
using a lance on a mounted charge PHB 155: "deals double damage"
Dive Attack MM1 312: "deal double damage" with a piercing weapon
Rhino's Rush SC 177: "double damage" on a charge

There's some other good things, too:
Neraph Charge PlH 40: denies dex to AC for first charge, making the target AC 10 when combined with Brilliant Energy
Bestial Charge CC 56: grants Pounce
Combat Brute CW 110: another x2 damage, but over two turns
Hurling Charge MH 27: also throw a weapon when you charge
Greater/ Powerful Charge MH 27: extra size dice damage on charges (up to +8d6)
Raptor School CW 111: +4 damage on your aerial charge
Shock Trooper CW 112: trade away AC instead of to-hit on your PA
Haste: extra attack
anything that gives +str or +flat dmg

That's not everything, but it's what I had saved. Anyway, we only need two sources of double damage to hit 4d6 + 168 damage with Fighter2, or three sources to get 4d6 + 224.

[Zanos]

I mean, sure, if you assume that the fighter is allowed ro act sensibly but the Solar isn't, the fighter will win.
I think people are assuming the Solar is already built. Which it is.

[Jormengand]

I think people are assuming the Solar is already built. Which it is.

Well, yeah, it is, but that doesn't stop it, say, casting spells, or going about its day-to-day life in which it probably checks for things like high-level epic evil fighters in the nearby vicinity, and then, say, doing something about them before they can ubercharge out of the bushes.

[Tiri]

Well, yeah, it is, but that doesn't stop it, say, casting spells, or going about its day-to-day life in which it probably checks for things like high-level epic evil fighters in the nearby vicinity, and then, say, doing something about them before they can ubercharge out of the bushes.

Well, the fighter doesn't necessarily have to be evil. Not that that changes much, but they don't.

[Malroth]

Yeah Assuming any scenario besides "poof you're in a room and you fight now" The Solar's At will SLA's and superior movement abilities mean the Fighter is eventually going to roll a 1 and loose unless he decides to act like a real character and use his wealth for useful magic that actually does things.

[Coidzor]

There we, go, problem solved. How much WBL is that?

1,440,000 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#glovesofEpicDexterity) on the high end. 16,000 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#glovesofDexterity)on the low.

[GilesTheCleric]

1,440,000 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#glovesofEpicDexterity) on the high end. 16,000 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#glovesofDexterity)on the low.

Alright, and an effective +11 weapon (+1 Valorous, +4 Brilliant, +2 Unholy, +4 enhancement) is 2,420k. That's 3860k on the high end, leaving 9740k gp using the level 40 WBL.

[Zanos]

Can we do anything interesting with the fighters twenty five epic feats?

[AvatarVecna]

Can we do anything interesting with the fighters twenty five epic feats?

Epic Toughness 25 times. Fear my +750 HP!

[The Glyphstone]

Leadership, Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander. Bury the solar beneath a literal mountain made from the bodies of your followers.

[Troacctid]

I assume probably Eternal Hero, so that you have spellcasting and immmunity to death? Artifact Lord is also pretty nice though.

A sufficiently optimized fighter will just win with WBL-mancy.

[John Longarrow]

Fighter drops a million gp on hiring 10 epic level casters to toast said solar? With the kind of money they'd have they wouldn't have to be on the same plane as said Solar to arrange its eternal defeat. With the kind of wealth were talking about lvl 50 commoner would win to.

[Soranar]

Hum...

A Dex Fighter that fights ranged?

Great Crossbow + instant reload

every weapon specialization feat

crossbow sniper

Every stat increase in DEX

Drow Fighter

You deal 2d8 damage + 10 (weapon specialization feats) + 2.5 DEX with all the DEX to damage feats and class features

Your DEX should be insane (40?)

Combine this with intimidate tricks (you get to intimidate as a swift action) and you're level 50 so your intimidate ranks alone should do the job unless solars are immune to fear, I don't remember

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can we do anything interesting with the fighters twenty five epic feats?Take the three or so decent nonmagical epic level feats, then spend the rest on GOOD nonepic feats, like Power Attack, Shock Trooper, dungeon crasher fighter, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Knockback, and Improved Whirlwind Attack that blow the epic feats out of the water.

[Eldariel]

If we assume a reasonably built, prepared and equipped Solar? A Fighter's core tactic is just ineffective against them no matter the numbers - thus the level is not a factor. Far as "Fighter" Fighter goes, the result will be the same on level 10, 40, 100, 400, 4000 or 10^600 - it's just a matter of how long/how difficult it is for the Solar to kill the Fighter. Thus the Fighter will indeed have to turn to WBL Wizardy to have a chance. Of course, the Solar can use its powers to make WBL a moot point (by producing infinite wealth), but as that would essentially just make the produced materials worthless through market inflation, it's easier to work with the standard cartoon "economics". If working only with their treasure (because the Solar just popped into existence or is too retarded good to actually try and save the universe for real), the Fighter will have enough of a gold advantage to be the better item Wizard. Though we'll have to remember: Solar qualifies for Epic Spellcasting. That is actually strong enough that it'd be hard to WBLmancy up to.

But the core tactic of "see something and hit it with a sword/shoot it with a bow" is kind of pointless on epic. Between projections, cloned bodies, proxies, protections that can amount to damage immunity, nigh' undetectability, etc. the matter is more about finding something your opponent isn't immune to or some way to take down their immunities than it is about doing damage or whatever. Thus all the class features that just say "bonus to hit", "bonus to damage" or such might as well not exist. They are a part of a different game that lost significance long ago.

[Ualaa]

The environmental situation is going to be a large factor.

If the Fighter is in the middle of an open field, and is attacked by a flying Solar who is 200 ft. off of the ground and initiates combat, I'd give the edge to the Solar on the basis that a Fighter is probably melee focused, with some ranged options.

But a Fighter who has been built as an Archer, with some melee options, is in better shape.

Still if the Solar is the one initiating the battle; assume the character is the equivalent of a Genghis Khan, currently separated from his horde, but an evil bastard who commits genocide as he rapes his way across the world, the Solar likely has done his research on that very well known and researchable anti-hero.

Conversely, if the Fighter knows a Solar is coming, and arranges for the battle to take place within a cavern with a low ceiling or traps the Solar within a smallish room that blocks access to the astral and ethereal, and negates teleport like effects, then the Fighter is the one who is prepared.

[J-H]

The (SRD, epic, fairly cheap) mantle of epic spell resistance grants the fighter SR 40. The solar's SR:Yes spells will fail most of the time. The fighter gets the (also cheap) epic Boots of Swiftness (for +30' move speed and haste for 20 rounds) and some kind of flying item that bases flight speed on land speed - or gets a flying mount with the speed-granting horseshoes. One charge and the battle is over. No point in statting out the charge. Gear and mount choice lets him move as fast as the solar does.

In the one epic campaign that I've been in that ended, we fought a slightly de-powered god with a touch AC in the 40s. My psion spent his pp & xp repeatedly setting up our mounted ubercharger for a buffed psionic lion's charge for 300-400 damage per turn.

Chargers are simply better at doing HP damage than anything else in the game, including Disintegrate.

[AnachroNinja]

There seems to be a fair number of people here invested in the idea that it's wrong to not let the fighter win via pure WBL tactics despite the fact that the actual question/idea is based around whether a fighter can win against a standard high level encounter by virtue of being a fighter.

It ends up sounding a lot like "There's nothing wrong with fighters! If you think they can't do something, just pretend to be a different class until it's over and then tell people how awesome you are at being a fighter".

[Eldariel]

The (SRD, epic, fairly cheap) mantle of epic spell resistance grants the fighter SR 40. The solar's SR:Yes spells will fail most of the time. The fighter gets the (also cheap) epic Boots of Swiftness (for +30' move speed and haste for 20 rounds) and some kind of flying item that bases flight speed on land speed - or gets a flying mount with the speed-granting horseshoes. One charge and the battle is over. No point in statting out the charge. Gear and mount choice lets him move as fast as the solar does.

In the one epic campaign that I've been in that ended, we fought a slightly de-powered god with a touch AC in the 40s. My psion spent his pp & xp repeatedly setting up our mounted ubercharger for a buffed psionic lion's charge for 300-400 damage per turn.

Chargers are simply better at doing HP damage than anything else in the game, including Disintegrate.

That's great but this only works if the Solar truly pops into existence at the instance of the fight and has never used magic to defensively ward itself. We're talking about a creature with Wish SLA + Miracle; it can literally cast any spell of level 8 or lower. It also has At Will SLA Commune which means it can divine pretty much anything it feels like. And SLA Permanency so if a spell can be made permanent, it probably has it permanent.

It can easily have e.g. Contingent Plane Shift up in Core or any number of Contingencies out of it; and it can be undetectable all day long - and it's not hard for it to have e.g. Delay Death up meaning it won't die of HP damage ever which can be combined with Beastland Ferocity to act normally while in negatives. We can assume that if the Fighter ever hits the Solar, it can do enough damage to kill it. But Solar has access to magic so it's fully possible the Solar can't be killed via. damage, that Solar can't be reached without magic (it's hard to move at 500 miles per turn as a mundane and practically impossible to cross planar boundaries; magic does both effortlessly), that Solar can't be detected without magic (Superior Invisibility makes it very hard anyways and Wish can replicate it), et cetera. Also, Solar has Wish SLA 1/day so it can essentially have any magic items it might desire (and it can acquire anything within the span of 1 standard action). And yeah, Solar can cast Gate so it can chain-Gate Solars if it feels like it.

Of course, there's also the option of it having Epic Spellcasting at which point it's essentially omnipotent. It can just mitigate a spell with its fellow Solars (that it can Gate) to the point that it costs nothing and is researched instantaneously and come up with...well, anything. You can magic away the Fighter, get any buffs to anything or whatever.


Basically, Solars have access to the following things CharOps often use extreme cheese to achieve:
Free Wishes
Epic Spellcasting (if they feel like picking the feat)
At-Will Free Divinations

As a part of their base chassis. Thus, every single Solar can ascend to transcendence if they so desire. As such, each Solar is precisely as strong as the DM feels like making it; their chassis is broken into 1000 pieces.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it also has Animate Object at will so it can pull off Nanobots if it so desires.

[AvatarVecna]

There seems to be a fair number of people here invested in the idea that it's wrong to not let the fighter win via pure WBL tactics despite the fact that the actual question/idea is based around whether a fighter can win against a standard high level encounter by virtue of being a fighter.

It ends up sounding a lot like "There's nothing wrong with fighters! If you think they can't do something, just pretend to be a different class until it's over and then tell people how awesome you are at being a fighter".

Being fair, the game kind of assumes certain abilities are available past a certain level, and 50 is quite a high level. At what point are you no longer just using magic items that aid you in Fightering, but rather letting the items win for you? Is it cheating to have an epic weapon? Probably not, but what about having specifically an epic holy weapon? Maybe the Fighter 50 happens to have a golf club bag full of epic weapons suited for various foes with the purpose of overcoming DR and Regeneration, or maybe they have one super-weapon that's got all the DR/regen overcoming abilities, or did they prepare for this specific fight? The first case is possible at this level, but unlikely; the second is possible, maybe even probably depending on the level, but would be quite expensive depending on how useful you wanted the weapon to be outside facing DR/Regen monsters; the third runs into standard "prepping for this specific fight" issues.

But still, super-weapon is still using money to be a better Fighteringer. Flight? Well, an additional form of mobility would be great. Speeding it up with those epic boots? Sure, being fast is great. Does this build have a way to get out of a Forcecage conjured via Wish, or Miracle? They could certainly afford it, I think, but...is that fair? Is that the Fighter using cheap magic tactics to win, or the fighter using WBL to get around the cheap magic tactics of others?

[Segev]

The real question is this, I think: Is the fighter ultimately defeating the solar, once he's found, caught up with, and engaged him in combat, through weapons or unarmed combat? Or is he using other agents, borrowed spells, and magic items which in no way care that they're being wielded by somebody who has feats and high attack bonus and skill in combat?

I doubt anybody would say "he didn't win as a fighter" if he used a flying mount and a teleportation item to get to the Solar, used a scrying magic item to make sure he found the real Solar and not a clone, double, illusion, or other deception designed to make him unable to actually attack, but ultimately appeared near enough to the Solar to make his attacks with his epic, specially selected 9-iron unholy sword of Celestial-beating (or bow, or axe, or storm of throwing knives, or whatever) to murder the Solar. Nor if he grappled it and didn't let go (perhaps using magical items to ensure he can stay with it or dispel its freedom or freedom of movement. Or any other magical tactic to overcome its magical defenses. The key is that, when the fighter finally forces the fight onto his terms, it's on terms as a fighter.

As opposed to a commoner, expert, or any other "win by WBL" approach which wins on terms of "my magic items/hired help."

I won't say it's just about the finishing blow (because a commoner who hired a cadre of wizards to get the Solar down to 1 hp and then used his unholy dagger to stab that one last hp away wouldn't count, either), but it's about the beatdown being delivered by the fighter, as a fighter. He can use whatever items or tactics he needs to get in a position where delivering that beatdown is possible.

[GilesTheCleric]

The real question is this, I think: Is the fighter ultimately defeating the solar, once he's found, caught up with, and engaged him in combat, through weapons or unarmed combat? Or is he using other agents, borrowed spells, and magic items which in no way care that they're being wielded by somebody who has feats and high attack bonus and skill in combat?

I doubt anybody would say "he didn't win as a fighter" if he used a flying mount and a teleportation item to get to the Solar, used a scrying magic item to make sure he found the real Solar and not a clone, double, illusion, or other deception designed to make him unable to actually attack, but ultimately appeared near enough to the Solar to make his attacks with his epic, specially selected 9-iron unholy sword of Celestial-beating (or bow, or axe, or storm of throwing knives, or whatever) to murder the Solar. Nor if he grappled it and didn't let go (perhaps using magical items to ensure he can stay with it or dispel its freedom or freedom of movement. Or any other magical tactic to overcome its magical defenses. The key is that, when the fighter finally forces the fight onto his terms, it's on terms as a fighter.

As opposed to a commoner, expert, or any other "win by WBL" approach which wins on terms of "my magic items/hired help."

I won't say it's just about the finishing blow (because a commoner who hired a cadre of wizards to get the Solar down to 1 hp and then used his unholy dagger to stab that one last hp away wouldn't count, either), but it's about the beatdown being delivered by the fighter, as a fighter. He can use whatever items or tactics he needs to get in a position where delivering that beatdown is possible.

But that's the trick, isn't it? The fighter doesn't actually have anything unique to its class. It just gets more of the same things everyone else gets. "To fighter" really just means "to mundane".

[Segev]

But that's the trick, isn't it? The fighter doesn't actually have anything unique to its class. It just gets more of the same things everyone else gets. "To fighter" really just means "to mundane".

No, "to commoner" means "to mundane" and nothing else. "To fighter" is to do it mainly through combat prowess. "To rogue" (or "to expert") is likely to do it through skill and/or sneak attack.

That isn't to say there are no problems, and that a fighter doesn't lack a certain element because it's easier for a commoner to do it "like a fighter" than it is for a commoner to do it "like a mage," but a fighter will have a certain set of capabilities, and a broader range of options within those capabilities, than non-fighters.

Is the fighter taking advantage of having lots of feats? Of being proficient with weapons and armor? Is he using tactics that he probably used variations on when he didn't have all these items? Or has he totally changed how he plays until his solution is indistinguishable from a commoner, due to both using magic items to do everything important?

[icefractal]

With that many feats, might as well pick up Distant Shot + Brutal Throw + Power Throw. Grab an Orcish Shotput and throw it two handed to kill things at any range you can see.

The Solar can be invisible though, and while level 50 certainly gives you enough ways to boost Spot that you can see invisible things, range penalties go arbitrarily high if the Solar stays far enough away. If the Solar gets close enough to attack they probably get spotted though.

Which means that the primary question here is: Is the Solar also trying to kill the Fighter, or is it content to run away? Because it's a lot easier to kill a Solar once you're in the same place than to try and catch one who's hopping planes to get away from you. Although the latter isn't impossible either with 50th level WBL; the Solar does have only four plane jumps a day (Etherealness, Plane Shift, Miracle, Wish).

And yes, I'm assuming the Solar has the spell selection it does in the MM, because that's how the question was posed! Seriously guys, not everything is some Fighter vs Wizard battle; your caster PCs aren't going to start retroactively sucking because a sufficiently high-level Fighter managed to accomplish something. The question was whether said Fighter could do it, not "could they do it in a way that exemplifies Fighter-ness distinct from how any other class would have done it".

Incidentally, direct damage comes back into its own at Epic levels. Many Epic creatures are immune to pretty much all the SoDs / SNSs, but not several thousand damage to the face. And that's usually the most efficient way to handle them. Not that a Fighter is the only or best way to do said damage, of course, but they can in fact do it.

[Eldariel]

Incidentally, direct damage comes back into its own at Epic levels. Many Epic creatures are immune to pretty much all the SoDs / SNSs, but not several thousand damage to the face. And that's usually the most efficient way to handle them. Not that a Fighter is the only or best way to do said damage, of course, but they can in fact do it.

It alone isn't really enough though. I mean, sure, if you fight things from the Epic Level Handbook but if you fight actual epic threats, you'll have to overcome their spell-based immortality effects before your damage has any effect. Damage is certainly one good way to finish a target off but the fight has been won or lost long before you actually get to dealing it. And of course, killing an epic entity is rarely useful; basically anything on those levels has the means to come back to life immediately if slain. Something simple like Thinaun weapon does help though.

[AnachroNinja]

I think a better question, and a fairer one, would be: Can a level 50 fighter with level 20 WBL defeat a solar? That at least brings the question down to whether or not 30 extra levels of fighter has any meaningful impact on a character.

We ALL know that WBL for a 50th level character can kill anything. It's like saying Bill Gates is a better fighter then a Shaolin Master because if you pit them both against a grizzly bear, Bill Gates can afford to shoot it with a rocket launcher while flying overhead in his private helicopter.

[JNAProductions]

Actually, I had an idea at work.

At what level does a Fighter of level X, with PC WBL for level X, beat a Solar, but a Commoner 1 with the same wealth lose?

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, I had an idea at work.

At what level does a Fighter of level X, with PC WBL for level X, beat a Solar, but a Commoner 1 with the same wealth lose?

That's a much more interesting...and involved...question.

[JNAProductions]

That's a much more interesting...and involved...question.

Oh, and no abusing one-shot items to just kill the Solar. A few consumables are fine, but if you're spending more than 10% of your wealth on limited use items, you're cheating. SO I SAY! :P

[Kelb_Panthera]

There seems to be a fair number of people here invested in the idea that it's wrong to not let the fighter win via pure WBL tactics despite the fact that the actual question/idea is based around whether a fighter can win against a standard high level encounter by virtue of being a fighter.

It ends up sounding a lot like "There's nothing wrong with fighters! If you think they can't do something, just pretend to be a different class until it's over and then tell people how awesome you are at being a fighter".

Except a fighter, and to a certain extent any other class that's not a full caster, is pretty much wholly reliant on gear to do more and more of -anything- past level 5 or so. Asking if the fighter can win without access to the gear made available by WBL is like asking if the solar can win without its spellcasting. WBL is just part of any normal character.

Now, can it be done without scroll, wand, or staff; almost certainly. Can it be done without gear at all; of course not.

[AnachroNinja]

I'm pretty sure no one, or at least not me, is saying that fighters need to be able to do it without gear at all, though obviously full casters can lol. I'm just saying that it should be like 75% the character, 25% the gear. If your class and it's features are completely irrelevant to the combat, that's no good.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm pretty sure no one, or at least not me, is saying that fighters need to be able to do it without gear at all, though obviously full casters can lol. I'm just saying that it should be like 75% the character, 25% the gear. If your class and it's features are completely irrelevant to the combat, that's no good.

Base fighter has no class features. The fight will devolve in WBL-many because the items bring for more interesting, useful, and critical options and resources to the table. If this fight were with someone whose features are more difficult to replicate via items than it would be something to consider but as is the fighter could probably be swapped with a commoner of the same level and the difference would not be noticeable.

[OldTrees1]

Actually, I had an idea at work.

At what level does a Fighter of level X, with PC WBL for level X, beat a Solar, but a Commoner 1 with the same wealth lose?

Answer:
X = the level wherein the WBL will just barely solve enabling attacking the foe. At that point the Fighter would be relying on their own class features (cough cough bonus feats) and HD features to pull off the damage necessary to make attacking result in victory.

Afterall, the only qualitative difference between a Commoner 1 and an Fighter X is the bonus feats gained by those X levels & X-1 HD.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm pretty sure no one, or at least not me, is saying that fighters need to be able to do it without gear at all, though obviously full casters can lol. I'm just saying that it should be like 75% the character, 25% the gear. If your class and it's features are completely irrelevant to the combat, that's no good.

The fighter's feat selections and HD based benefits aren't completely irrelevant but they're all inherently either directly offensive or directly defensive in nature. There are necessary abilities for dealing with highly magical foes that simply aren't available as fighter feats or even feats in general. If it's not strictly a fighter 50 but some combination of melee classes and PrC's that add up to ECL 50 then that changes things but even then gear is going to come to no less than 50/50.

[Troacctid]

Fighter bonus feats don't matter when you get to 50 HD. At that point you have more feats than you need, even without bonus feats. The fighter isn't doing anything that an NPC warrior couldn't do—she just has a few extra bonuses to hit and damage.

[AnachroNinja]

To me that is kind of the point. If the most important Stat/Ability/Feature of your character is WBL, then I feel like it's poorly designed. And I know it's difficult. We try to distinguish between WBL as it enables you to bring your characters class features/abilities to bear on your enemy ...VS... WBL being used in place on your class to completely solve the encounter regardless of your other character choices. Fighters are very limited what they can do without some assistance. I agree that THAT is by design, and is to some degree unavoidable if you're trying to create a mundane melee combatant.

I personally feel like it's nearly impossible to truly build a mundane class that has the inherent ability to solve a really wide array of problems and encounter possibilities. It's just unrealistic within that paradigm. I think the fighter would be better served with a variety of mundane style abilities that are defensive in nature. ToB got a lot of that right IMO. Make your fighter just say focused/tough/courageous that he shrugs off and bulls thru a lot of stuff. He may have a hard time getting thru your wonky mystical defenses, but it's also tough for you to wear down his sheer determination.

I'm not saying this is an easy problem to solve, it might not even BE completely fixable, but I do think the power balance is a problem.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's as simple as this;

After a certain point, it's expected that the entire party has access to magic. The only real difference between casters and not-casters is whether that magic comes from their pocket to augment and supplement their non-magical features or from their features directly such that they can accomplish tasks without recourse to non-magical options. The latter tends to result in a notably higher ceiling for what can be accomplished but the floor set by the game's design is quite reachable by either.

There are no genuinely mundane D&D characters in high level play even when there definitely are fighters and rogues.

[GilesTheCleric]

It's as simple as this;

After a certain point, it's expected that the entire party has access to magic. The only real difference between casters and not-casters is whether that magic comes from their pocket to augment and supplement their non-magical features or from their features directly such that they can accomplish tasks without recourse to non-magical options. The latter tends to result in a notably higher ceiling for what can be accomplished but the floor set by the game's design is quite reachable by either.

There are no genuinely mundane D&D characters in high level play even when there definitely are fighters and rogues.

What if we tried to solve the problem with mundane items instead of magical items, though? Eg. Tanglefoot bags and dirigibles.

[Troacctid]

Solars are immune to nonmagical damage due to their regeneration (and to a lesser extent, their damage reduction), so good luck with that. :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

What if we tried to solve the problem with mundane items instead of magical items, though? Eg. Tanglefoot bags and dirigibles.

Maybe, -maybe- with leadership and a substantial army you could knock it out and bind it. Killing it is nigh-unto impossible without epic magic.

Outside of the OP's scenario and taking the question more generally, you can do that up to mid-levels pretty well if you're fairly clever and the DM makes some reasonable, minor accomodations.

[GilesTheCleric]

Even if they're immune to nonmagical damage, I bet you could kill one via (fixed) drowning, or maybe by getting it addicted to a deadly drug. Perhaps that's where the fighter could come in -- if having extra feats that focus on their weapon is "to fighter", then maybe we could include being a master of a magical weapon as part of that.

I bet that with the playground's expertise we could create a mundane scry'n'die for a fighter, especially if in-character we would know what the challenge is ahead of time.

[Esprit15]

Solars are immune to nonmagical damage due to their regeneration (and to a lesser extent, their damage reduction), so good luck with that. :smalltongue:

Isn't it overcome by Evil and Epic?

[AvatarVecna]

Isn't it overcome by Evil and Epic?

While certainly a valid point generally, it is my understanding that this:


Solars are immune to nonmagical damage due to their regeneration (and to a lesser extent, their damage reduction), so good luck with that. :smalltongue:

...is in response to this:


What if we tried to solve the problem with mundane items instead of magical items, though? Eg. Tanglefoot bags and dirigibles.

...which makes it a much more appropriate statement.

[Troacctid]

Isn't it overcome by Evil and Epic?
Epic is a subset of magic. Only magic weapons with a +6 or higher enhancement bonus count as epic.

[Lord Raziere]

Solars are immune to nonmagical damage due to their regeneration (and to a lesser extent, their damage reduction), so good luck with that. :smalltongue:

ok, let hypothetically start figuring out what say homebrew custom feats a Fighter would need to make this an even fight. Like lets make "Fighter capable of defeating a Solar" a start we need to do to make them awesome

So, if a fighter with no equipment were to fight a Solar, they'd need something like custom feat or feature to make their attacks be magical damage. at minimum.

with power word: kill, lets add in a feat that gives them an immunity to that instant save-or-die nonsense.

perhaps a feat that lets their attacks ignore regeneration.

but there is still the problem of Wish. perhaps a feat to specifically counter Wish once a day? like that can be fluffed as just throwing a rock at their head to disrupt concentration and thus lose the spell for the day?

......hm.....maybe a feat can grant a pool of "super-saves" or something? like things you can spend to guarantee you'll succeed a saving throw against something? like, I'm talking 10 or 12 guaranteed saves for a fighter at level 20, maybe 15 guaranteed saves? maybe generalize this to guarantee success on skill rolls as well? give him the same amount of guaranteed successes as a Wizard has spells he can cast in a day?

there is the flying and ranged problem though, so how about a feat to allow a fighter to always have a boulder available to throw at a ranged enemy or flying person, which would have synergy with his other feats to make his attacks able to bypass their special defenses. of course if you prefer melee, you could always just make a feat to guarantee always getting high enough when you jump up to attack them and land safely on the ground as if you have slow fall.

if you want to be realistic in your defenses, you could always have feats to improve your dodging skills for everything up to very great heights since your not wearing armor. taking the attacks of a Solar head on looks like would need skin like steel or adamant or something.

all of this would be Extraordinary of course, with no way of being dispelled by anti-magic.

and I'm honestly not sure if any of this would work, I'm just throwing out ideas. We all know that the fighter wouldn't win, but I'm just curious what abilities we would have to give him to defeat a Solar without equipment or using spells.

[Troacctid]

So, if a fighter with no equipment were to fight a Solar, they'd need something like custom feat or feature to make their attacks be magical damage. at minimum.

[...]

perhaps a feat that lets their attacks ignore regeneration.
This exists: Blade of Ragnarok makes your attacks count as magic, epic, aligned, and one special material (adamantine, cold iron, or silver) or damage type (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) of your choice (switchable as a move action). It also lets you strip away a creature's regeneration, damage reduction, fast healing, immunities, miss chance, energy resistance, or spell resistance when you successfully attack them; this effect lasts 3 rounds and is usable 3/day. Oh, and you can use a swift action 2/day to get a +20 bonus to attack rolls, double your crit range, ignore miss chances, and reroll all 1s on attack and damage rolls for 1 round. And you're immune to death from massive damage, and you have a souped-up version of Diehard that prevents you from dying until you reach half your negative hit point maximum, and you have DR 5/- that stacks with any and all other forms of DR.

Unfortunately, it takes up 4 epic feat slots, and competes with other epic destinies like Artifact Lord, Demigod, and Eternal Hero.


but there is still the problem of Wish. perhaps a feat to specifically counter Wish once a day? like that can be fluffed as just throwing a rock at their head to disrupt concentration and thus lose the spell for the day?
You can actually ready an action to disrupt a spell-like ability, since they require concentration just like spells. The problem is that if the solar decides to full-attack you instead, you're kind of boned.

[Ywvbevlin]

I think I won. Ha ha

[AvatarVecna]

I think I won. Ha ha

Why are you posting this here? You haven't done anything else in this thread, so I can't imagine what you're declaring yourself to have won? :smallconfused:

[JNAProductions]

I think I won. Ha ha

WBL won. A commoner, level 1, with level 50 wealth, can kill a Solar.

[Jowgen]

I personally think that the most interesting way to measure how well "Fighter" would do in this fight would be to see how far he could make it by purely relying on feats (with WBL used for Chaos Shuffle as needed, because the fighter bonus feat resitrction is dumb) and non-magical gear. Or at least see how much of a load could be taken off the magical gear requirements by setting feats on fire, because at the end of the day, feats are the fighter's only (poor excuse for a) gimmick.

For example, Divine Denial from EoE would give the fighter a save against all the Solar's cleric spells. Add Steadfast determination and the Pride Domain power via catalogues of enlightenment, plus sufficiently high saves via feats, and that side of the Solar's advantage is severely reduced. All that would be missing for proper pseudo-immunity would be Mettle. In addtion one could set up a solid lock-down build around the Mage Slayer feat line, complete with the extra reach feats, to also put a lid on SLA use.

I think that with enough feat-dumbster diving, one should be able to at least make it an interesting fight.

[Flickerdart]

I personally think that the most interesting way to measure how well "Fighter" would do in this fight would be to see how far he could make it by purely relying on feats (with WBL used for Chaos Shuffle as needed, because the fighter bonus feat resitrction is dumb) and non-magical gear. Or at least see how much of a load could be taken off the magical gear requirements by setting feats on fire, because at the end of the day, feats are the fighter's only (poor excuse for a) gimmick.

For example, Divine Denial from EoE would give the fighter a save against all the Solar's cleric spells. Add Steadfast determination and the Pride Domain power via catalogues of enlightenment, plus sufficiently high saves via feats, and that side of the Solar's advantage is severely reduced. All that would be missing for proper pseudo-immunity would be Mettle. In addtion one could set up a solid lock-down build around the Mage Slayer feat line, complete with the extra reach feats, to also put a lid on SLA use.

I think that with enough feat-dumbster diving, one should be able to at least make it an interesting fight.

Until you step back and realize all you've done is turtle. What's your strategy for closing into fighting range with a being that can fly, teleport, plane shift, go ethereal, and generally keep you busy with minions until you are dead of old age?

[JNAProductions]

Can a 50th level fighter, without magic items, break a Forcecage?

Because if not, a single casting of Forcecage (via Miracle) in box form kills the Fighter. It lasts around two days, and they just don't have that much air.

[Troacctid]

Can a 50th level fighter, without magic items, break a Forcecage?

Because if not, a single casting of Forcecage (via Miracle) in box form kills the Fighter. It lasts around two days, and they just don't have that much air.
There are epic destinies that could do it.

[Novolin]

Can a 50th level fighter, without magic items, break a Forcecage?

Because if not, a single casting of Forcecage (via Miracle) in box form kills the Fighter. It lasts around two days, and they just don't have that much air.

This is DnD not IRL.

[Flickerdart]

Can a 50th level fighter, without magic items, break a Forcecage?

Because if not, a single casting of Forcecage (via Miracle) in box form kills the Fighter. It lasts around two days, and they just don't have that much air.

A DC120 Escape Artist check allows you to pass through a wall of force and similar effects.

Speaking of epic skills, the fighter can use his class skill Handle Animal to rear and raise any sort of creature. What should the limitation on this be? I guess we should forbid it, and forbid the Solar's summoning of more Solars.

[JNAProductions]

This is DnD not IRL.

D&D is a simulation of life... Sorta. And while I wouldn't bother calculating EXACTLY how long a Fighter could survive in an airtight box, I guarantee you it's less than a day.


A DC120 Escape Artist check allows you to pass through a wall of force and similar effects.

Speaking of epic skills, the fighter can use his class skill Handle Animal to rear and raise any sort of creature. What should the limitation on this be? I guess we should forbid it, and forbid the Solar's summoning of more Solars.

Cool! Unfortunately for our Fighter, though, I don't think they have +120 to Escape Artist. They might have 53 from ranks, say 20 from Dex, and 9 from feats. That's only around... 82. Can't even succeed on a nat 20.

[Novolin]

D&D is a simulation of life... Sorta. And while I wouldn't bother calculating EXACTLY how long a Fighter could survive in an airtight box, I guarantee you it's less than a day.

There's no rules to suffocate in forcecage, so it doesn't happen

[JNAProductions]

There's no rules to suffocate in forcecage, so it doesn't happen

There are no rules for your heart beating. Do all players that require that to live instantly die because their blood doesn't flow?

Yes, it requires DM adjudication. But no, it doesn't just NOT happen.

Also, I just looked. There are rules for it. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm).



A Medium character can breathe easily for 6 hours in a sealed chamber measuring 10 feet on a side. After that time, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage every 15 minutes. Each additional Medium character or significant fire source (a torch, for example) proportionally reduces the time the air will last. When a character falls unconscious from this nonlethal damage, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the next round, she suffocates.

Small characters consume half as much air as Medium characters. A larger volume of air, of course, lasts for a longer time.

[Segev]

Cool! Unfortunately for our Fighter, though, I don't think they have +120 to Escape Artist. They might have 53 from ranks, say 20 from Dex, and 9 from feats. That's only around... 82. Can't even succeed on a nat 20.

Nonsense! With his 40 trained rats each providing Aid Another for an average of +2 per pair of rats, he's making a DC 121 on a roll of natural 1.

He does have handle animal, after all.

[Ywvbevlin]

WBL won. A commoner, level 1, with level 50 wealth, can kill a Solar.

still won. You lose

[JNAProductions]

still won. You lose

Yes, rich, rich people can kill angels. Money saves the day! :P

[ExLibrisMortis]

We could compare a level 50 fighter to a solar, both with level 50 WBL. Who wins? Are the solar's powers even enough to matter, when so much money is provided?

I think the solar would win, because it's really damn expensive to emulate proper spellcasting, wish, and regeneration.

[Flickerdart]

We could compare a level 50 fighter to a solar, both with level 50 WBL. Who wins? Are the solar's powers even enough to matter, when so much money is provided?

I think the solar would win, because it's really damn expensive to emulate proper spellcasting, wish, and regeneration.

It doesn't really matter how expensive to emulate the solar's skillset is. The mere fact that he has more resources means that he wins, all other things being equal, since each character can buy perfect counters to each other's items for as long as there's cash, and being able to free up cash with non-cash counters to cash means you can keep buying after your enemy has run out of funds to buy counters.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It doesn't really matter how expensive to emulate the solar's skillset is. The mere fact that he has more resources means that he wins, all other things being equal, since each character can buy perfect counters to each other's items for as long as there's cash, and being able to free up cash with non-cash counters to cash means you can keep buying after your enemy has run out of funds to buy counters.
Right, unless the solar's abilities are all countered by the things that are required to counter its level 50 WBL anyway. For instance, immunity to death effects doesn't care whether it's the solar's casting or its epic magic item. I'm not saying that this is the case, and I'd favour the solar in this fight, but on running the numbers, it may turn out to be the case that it's near enough a tie.

Your answer assumes that the solar has more power, which may be close to what the OP was going for, so it's a useful question in that regard. Apparently the fighter's extra epic feats, HD, skill ranks and so forth are insufficient to counter top-notch spellcasting and a load of special abilities.

[Der_DWSage]

Hmmm...you know, this isn't exactly a question of 'Can a level 50 Fighter beat a Solar?' This is more 'A [Mundane] can deal enough damage to destroy whatever it reaches. Can it reach [an opponent] significantly weaker than it, if [an opponent] has tactics to deal with the [Mundane?]'

Because that's pretty much what this comes down to. No one is arguing that the Solar's a fair fight once he's in melee combat, barring Delay Death-esque shenanigans. At that point, he's just done. Everyone is instead arguing 'The Solar can fly, gate in other Solars, come back from the dead, and generally not fight the Fighter on his terms. At what point does WBLmancy become the defining feature for him to fight on the battleground he chooses?'

Because, as stated above, a Commoner with Level 50 WBL can also beat the Solar just by getting a Scroll of Gate, a ring of +30 UMD, and winning initiative. A Fighter with a +10 Longbow, +30 Strength, various feats, and a bit of spite can kill the Solar by shooting him.

To sum up, a Level 50 Fighter probably can deal with things 30 under its CR, just by merit of having enough magical stuff to kill it. A 'naked except for armor and weapons' Fighter is going to have significantly more trouble if the opponent uses any tactics that the Fighter can't counter. But D&D breaks pretty badly by level 11, let alone level 50, so such a thing is rather silly to discuss anyway.