Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

How could someone make a mainly monk character who is actually playable and can keep up with Tier 1 and 2? Is there any way or it it just THAT bad that it is literally no match to an unoptimized tier 1 or 2 whatever you do with it? I mean like everything, from getting good AC, equipment, feats, class level dips, PrC's, skill tricks, etc. All 3.5 sources and un updated 3.0 are allowed, including dragon magazine.

[Troacctid]

Easy, just prestige into Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist. Or, if you prefer, you could go Psionic Fist or Tashalatora, that works too.

[Tiri]

How could someone make a mainly monk character who is actually playable and can keep up with Tier 1 and 2? Is there any way or it it just THAT bad that it is literally no match to an unoptimized tier 1 or 2 whatever you do with it? I mean like everything, from getting good AC, equipment, feats, class level dips, PrC's, skill tricks, etc. All 3.5 sources and un updated 3.0 are allowed, including dragon magazine.

Well, without using tricks like UMD to mimic being a wizard, there is no way a monk can keep up at all with a similarly-optimised Tier 1 or 2. It just doesn't have that kind of potential.


Easy, just prestige into Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist. Or, if you prefer, you could go Psionic Fist or Tashalatora, that works too.

That's not really being a monk, though. That's being a powerful class that happens to have a bit of monk tacked on. Remember that the OP wanted most of the build to consist of monk.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Somebody did a monk build for a challenge Emperor Tippy laid down a while back that could solo all of the elder evils by itself. There was enough cheese in that build to choke a rhino, though.

[Troacctid]

Oh, and there's also Master of the North/East/West wind. Those can keep up with T1s okay. Works best if you springboard in off of Enlightened Fist.

[John Longarrow]

Sounds like your looking for an unarmed sword sage instead of a monk...

[Ruethgar]

A Rope Dart Trip Cleaver with the RAW reading of Cleave and Martial Spirit Stance would give you some nice CC, mild healing, and AoE damage. Add the Parry line and you become a decent defender of the party. You need to be able to tackle teleportation and flight at the very least. Martial Monk Devil Bloodline into Jaunter can help you with the first one. Flight might have to be delegated to race or item. Awakened Advanced Monkey is probably one of the best races ever for a monk even without template abuse. Uncanny Trickster might not be flight, but it can help you traverse the battlefield better and keep Jaunter going strong. A two level dip into Moon-Warded Ranger can let you double up on Wis to AC, which while not great, is pretty nice and the full BaB can't hurt.

But honestly, the more I look at it, the more I want to scream Play a Swordsage or Monk is a 2 level class, dip Barbarian, Fighter, and Ranger for front-loaded goodies.

[Troacctid]

That's not really being a monk, though. That's being a powerful class that happens to have a bit of monk tacked on. Remember that the OP wanted most of the build to consist of monk.
OP said, and I quote: "I mean like everything, from getting good AC, equipment, feats, class level dips, PrC's, skill tricks, etc."

[digiman619]

Personally, I'd suggest refluffing a Barbarian or PF Magus or the using a spherecasting class with the Monastic Tradition in Spheres of Power.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's like this;

The more monk* you use, the more this character becomes an exercise in WBL-mancy. Monk* abilities are kind of a grab-bag of "okay, that's neat" without a whole lot of coherence. You can make a perfectly functional character in spite of this fact but only if you know how to cover your butt with the right gear.

That out of the way, you will -not- keep up with the T1 and T2 classes, period. The gulf between T3 and T2 is really only covered by taking on T2 spellcasting or a near equivalent ability, e.g. the sublime chord's advanced spellcasting or wild shape from ranger levels going into a PrC that soups-up wild shape into something better than just animals. Unless you want to get into enlightened or sacred fist or take tashalatora, you're just never getting there. I think there was a wild shape monk in an issue of dragon but that's your only other realistic option.

Now, do you wanna do what's doable with monk* or do you wanna hit T1 - T2 power?


*monk and/or PrC's that advance or mimic monk class features but do not give or advance spellcasting/manifesting

[Tiri]

OP said, and I quote: "I mean like everything, from getting good AC, equipment, feats, class level dips, PrC's, skill tricks, etc."

I agree. It's just that the majority of the build can't consist of those, especially the caster levels, because he already said he wanted most of it to be levels in monk.

[John Longarrow]

OK, Think I've found a rather convoluted way to make a "Mostly Monk" that can hold up with tier 1...

Lvl 1 (now ex) bard. Character grew up in the bardic tradition but just could not shake their feeling it wasn't what they wanted.

Feats Iron Will, Spell Focus(evil)

Lvl 2-5 Monk. Taken in by group dedicated to Hextor you learn your proper role as a warrior/assassin for the state secret police. Bard skills (bluff, Know Planes, and spell craft) continue to get honed while picking up Know (Arcana/religion) off Monk.

Feat Combat Reflex

Lvl 6-7. One of your contacts, a healer of unique province, teaches you the arts of Ur-Priest.

Feat Combat Casting

Lvl 8-17 Sacred Fist. At lvl 16 you are tossing 9th level Divine spells while still fighting like a monk.

[Karl Aegis]

What is an "unoptimized tier 1 or tier 2" exactly? Is it a commoner with a cat or something? Are they allowed to use their class features at all?

I mean, you could go Sacred Path of Wee Jas for a bonus to Use Magic Device and try to use all the scrolls and other magic devices your Tier 1 class already could use, but you might still get trounced by somebody's animal companion.

Oh my goodness partially charged wands! Of course!

[Pugwampy]

Monk is pretty good with god stats . 3 or 4 , 18,s should do the job to put monk on par with a Barbarian or Fighter . Can Mr DM handle that pressure ?


Awesome Feats ?

Chaste Life <book of erotic fantasy> + 2 AB points of your choice and fits with monk ideals .

Flying Kick . A must have monk feat . + D12 damage on charge attack

Circle Kick . Its kinda like cleave but better . You dont need to drop the enemy to get your extra Att into his adjacent friend and can do it every round .

[Inevitability]

Somebody did a monk build for a challenge Emperor Tippy laid down a while back that could solo all of the elder evils by itself. There was enough cheese in that build to choke a rhino though.

Now that's a phrase I haven't heard before. Mind if I steal it? :smalltongue:


OK, Think I've found a rather convoluted way to make a "Mostly Monk" that can hold up with tier 1...

Lvl 1 (now ex) bard. Character grew up in the bardic tradition but just could not shake their feeling it wasn't what they wanted.

Feats Iron Will, Spell Focus(evil)

Lvl 2-5 Monk. Taken in by group dedicated to Hextor you learn your proper role as a warrior/assassin for the state secret police. Bard skills (bluff, Know Planes, and spell craft) continue to get honed while picking up Know (Arcana/religion) off Monk.

Feat Combat Reflex

Lvl 6-7. One of your contacts, a healer of unique province, teaches you the arts of Ur-Priest.

Feat Combat Casting

Lvl 8-17 Sacred Fist. At lvl 16 you are tossing 9th level Divine spells while still fighting like a monk.

How exactly do you keep getting skill ranks in bard skills? A class skill gained through a dip doesn't stay a class skill forever: at monk 5 the maximum number of Spellcraft ranks would still be 4.

[Tiri]

Monk is pretty good with god stats . 3 or 4 , 18,s should do the job .
Can Mr DM handle that pressure ?

Except for the fact that even with god stats, if you try to build a character using mainly monk class levels, you will still end up with a bad chassis for the main purpose of your class and almost completely unsynergystic class features.

You will also be unable to really prioritise one stat over another so in the end any one of your abilities will be weaker than that of a more SAD class with the same ability.

[Flickerdart]

A class skill gained through a dip doesn't stay a class skill forever: at monk 5 the maximum number of Spellcraft ranks would still be 4.
If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm)

[Pugwampy]

you will still end up with a bad chassis for the main purpose of your class

And what is his main purpose that god stats cannot improve upon ?

[John Longarrow]

Original comment ninja'd...

NOTE: Replace Bard with Factotem removes the alignment change required otherwise and would make for a smoother transition.

[Grod_The_Giant]

And what is his main purpose that god stats cannot improve upon ?
A VERY good question. No armor, boosted movement speed and dimension door say "skirmish," but Flurry of Blows and the self-healing say "stand and fight." High saves and Sr say "Mage-Slayer," but the lack of special senses, flight, and high-speed or long-distance teleports, and similar such counters preclude that.

[Pugwampy]

How could someone make a mainly monk character who is actually playable and can keep up with Tier 1 and 2?

I think trying to emulate other classes is a trap most monk players fall into .

I see monk class best used in combat as a " disrupter. "

A fighter or Barbarian can afford to just stand still and hack and slash till enemy goes down .
A monk cannot do that , he will get slaughtered . So what does monk do ? Well if he disarmed said monster , he just made monster even less combat effective then him provided monster cannot get his weapon back .

Or perhaps grappled monster taking both both and monster out of this encounter if only temporary could help his buddies alot .

[ShurikVch]

No armor, boosted movement speed and dimension door say "skirmish," but Flurry of Blows and the self-healing say "stand and fight."Halfling Monk racial sub. levels, Races of the Wild

[Grod_The_Giant]

Halfling Monk racial sub. levels, Races of the Wild
Gets your I think one die?


I think trying to emulate other classes is a trap most monk players fall into .

I see monk class best used in combat as a " disrupter. "
A shame that a medium BAB and almost certainly poor Strength make such things difficult to do.

[ShurikVch]

Gets your I think one die?No - you may get one more at 11th level
After that - you may go Dragon Devotee or Hand of the Winged Masters (you know like those martial arts people always talking about "dragon this" and "dragon that"?)

[TIPOT]

Monk's are playable if not mechanically the strongest class (there is a huge difference). If the party is a healing focused favoured soul, a god wizard and a buff oriented sorcerer the monk will probably feel pretty useful being the entire frontline/damage dealer.

Dnd is a team game at heart, if you get the party working together a monk can easily help contribute.

[Flickerdart]

Monk's are playable if not mechanically the strongest class (there is a huge difference). If the party is a healing focused favoured soul, a god wizard and a buff oriented sorcerer the monk will probably feel pretty useful being the entire frontline/damage dealer.

Dnd is a team game at heart, if you get the party working together a monk can easily help contribute.

If you have a team like that, the wizard's and sorcerer's familiars can probably outfight the monk.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Monk's are playable if not mechanically the strongest class (there is a huge difference). If the party is a healing focused favoured soul, a god wizard and a buff oriented sorcerer the monk will probably feel pretty useful being the entire frontline/damage dealer.

Dnd is a team game at heart, if you get the party working together a monk can easily help contribute.
"If the rest of the team focuses on helping you, you can contribute!" isn't the most useful metric.

But to be more useful...

Wild Monk, from Dragon 324. Wild Monk 6/Master of Many Forms 10 will give you something pretty excellent. All the lovely brokeness of MoMF, plus Wis-to-AC in all forms and Flurry of Blows+Secondary Natural Weapons. Wild Monk alone saves you, though low levels are even worse without your usual bonus feats. Even without MoMF, it's not terrible, though a Druid with a Monk's Belt does everything it does better.
Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil) gives you swift-action Invisibility all day long, which is fun.
Martial Monk (Dragon 310) arguably lets you pick Fighter bonus feats without meeting the prerequisites, which is surprisingly not-broken but does offer some fun combos.
Decisive Strike (PHB 2)




No - you may get one more at 11th level
After that - you may go Dragon Devotee or Hand of the Winged Masters (you know like those martial arts people always talking about "dragon this" and "dragon that"?)
Or Highland Stalker. That might be your best option, since it gives you the AC bonus you need to qualify for Improved Skirmish. But at a certain point you might as well just play a Scout with Improved/Superior Unarmed Strike. (Or a 1-2 level Monk dip, which does have some uses on a Scout-- they do so love their extra attacks)

[lylsyly]

There was enough cheese in that build to choke a rhino though.

Is it just me or should Kelb siggy that one?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Now that's a phrase I haven't heard before. Mind if I steal it? :smalltongue:

What, "enough cheese to choke a rhino?" sure, far be it from me to be the language police. All I ask is that, if you do quote it directly, you put the comma after "rhino" that ougth to be there.


Is it just me or should Kelb siggy that one?

Nah, it's not like its a special phrase or anything. Just the most colorful way I could think of to say "lots and lots of cheese" in the moment.

I'm honestly surprised at how often I spawn new sig's. Am I really that quotable?

[zergling.exe]

I'm honestly surprised at how often I spawn new sig's. Am I really that quotable?

You shall henceforth be known as Nappa, cause I'm going to sig this.

[Âmesang]

Martial Monk (Dragon 310) arguably lets you pick Fighter bonus feats without meeting the prerequisites, which is surprisingly not-broken but does offer some fun combos.
So maybe the monk could finally again qualify for Shattering Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#shatteringStrike) without dipping?
Shattering Strike [Epic]
Prerequisites: Epic Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Concentration 25 ranks, ki strike (adamantine).

Benefit: When using an unarmed strike to attempt to break an object with sudden force (rather than by dealing normal damage), make a Concentration check rather than a Strength check. The break DC remains the same. Using Shattering Strike is a full-round action that incurs attacks of opportunity. You can’t use Shattering Strike to escape bonds (unless you are so bound as to allow you to make an unarmed strike against your bindings).


❖ ❖ ❖

Epic Weapon Focus [Epic]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus in the chosen weapon.

Benefit: Add a +2 bonus to all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat it applies to a different type of weapon.


❖ ❖ ❖

Greater Weapon Focus [General]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Focus. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 8th.

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on attack rolls, including the one from Weapon Focus (see below).

Special: You can gain Greater Weapon Focus multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter must have Greater Weapon Focus with a given weapon to gain the Greater Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

A fighter may select Greater Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You shall henceforth be known as Nappa, cause I'm going to sig this.

I'll have my people call your people about the royalties. :smalltongue:

Also, Nappa? Really? I'd think more super-kami guru, myself :smallamused:

[zergling.exe]

I'll have my people call your people about the royalties. :smalltongue:

Also, Nappa? Really? I'd think more super-kami guru, myself :smallamused:

Do you want to be the original or the knock-off? Cause Nappa said it first! :smalltongue:

[digiman619]

I'll have my people call your people about the royalties. :smalltongue:

Also, Nappa? Really? I'd think more super-kami guru, myself :smallamused:


Do you want to be the original or the knock-off? Cause Nappa said it first! :smalltongue:

If he wanted to be a knock-off, he'd be Super Kami Dende

[zergling.exe]

If he wanted to be a knock-off, he'd be Super Kami Dende

Eh, Dende hasn't said "I am hilarious and you will quote everything I say." yet.

[lord_khaine]

To answer the OP, in a low op party you can fit in with a pure monk build as long as you have decent stats, i have done so several times in the past when i rolled well. When people start to optimise a little harden then you need to either multiclass out after a few levels, or get into the really extreme cheese.

And if you want help to your specific situation, then i think you should explain a little more about it.

Edit.
For middle OP games then i have had a lot of fun with a Monk/Adent build. It lets you self buff a little and fight on the front rank alongside the dedicated melee classes, or it let you disrupt hostile spellcasters with either targetet dispels or blasts of fire/frost/lightning/sound.

[Pugwampy]

A shame that a medium BAB and almost certainly poor Strength make such things difficult to do.

Medium BAB is unavoidable but tolerable . Strength is a choice . I pity the fool monk who does not make strength at least his second priority stat .

Monk can always burn an Improved disarm feat .

[Troacctid]

The 7th level Dark Moon substitution is actually legit good, and the at-will blink from Invisible Fist is quite nice as well. But the class as a whole suffers from being just a bit undertuned and frontloaded. It doesn't really function the way it's intended to. Barbarian is the same way.

Like I said, though, there are a good fair share of prestige classes that can elevate it by mashing it up with other classes.

[flappeercraft]

To answer the OP, in a low op party you can fit in with a pure monk build as long as you have decent stats, i have done so several times in the past when i rolled well. When people start to optimise a little harden then you need to either multiclass out after a few levels, or get into the really extreme cheese.

And if you want help to your specific situation, then i think you should explain a little more about it.

Edit.
For middle OP games then i have had a lot of fun with a Monk/Adent build. It lets you self buff a little and fight on the front rank alongside the dedicated melee classes, or it let you disrupt hostile spellcasters with either targetet dispels or blasts of fire/frost/lightning/sound.

Not really any specific situation, was just curious on how to make monksbe able to compete againts casters if possible and actually all games I plau are high OP.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not really any specific situation, was just curious on how to make monksbe able to compete againts casters if possible and actually all games I plau are high OP.

Then you either become a caster/manifester yourself or convince the party's casters that you're a better platform for their combat buffs than are they or their animal companions/familiars. The latter is kind of a hard sell for a druid and not exactly an easy one for a cleric.

[flappeercraft]

Then you either become a caster/manifester yourself or convince the party's casters that you're a better platform for their combat buffs than are they or their animal companions/familiars.

Oh, I'm not a player, I'm the DM on the games we play currently. Just wanted to know out of curiosity and I already tend to play caster too much when I'm player or DM so I wanted to check out the more mundane classes and possibly make one of the thralls of the BBEG a monk or fighter. Also, no problem with enlightened/sacred fist PrC's, actually fit with what I asked as I specifically pointed out PrC's were useful to me.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh, I'm not a player, I'm the DM on the games we play currently. Just wanted to know out of curiosity and I already tend to play caster too much when I'm player or DM so I wanted to check out the more mundane classes and possibly make one of the thralls of the BBEG a monk or fighter. Also, no problem with enlightened/sacred fist PrC's, actually fit with what I asked as I specifically pointed out PrC's were useful to me.

Okay, see now, that's important information to have. An over-leveled monk with level appropriate gear that is supposed to lose after giving the party a rough time actually can be done without too much trouble. That's just a matter of knowing the counters to other classes, picking and choosing based on the party's composition, and making the monk partially fit those criteria.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So maybe the monk could finally again qualify for Shattering Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#shatteringStrike) without dipping?
I wish; not a fighter bonus feat. Melee Weapon Mastery is, though (+2 attack and damage with a blunt/slashing/piercing weapons). Whirlwind Attack is.

[LordOfCain]

tl;dr this entire thread: Play a caster or manifester with some monk flavor (Sacred fist, tashalatora, enlightened fist, etc.).

[flappeercraft]

Now that I think about it, is it possible to make a mystic theurge like monk? I've heard of something dragonwrought kobolds use to get 3 more caster levels to sorcerer so I'm thinking of making a dragonwrough jungle kobold Monk 1/Sorcerer 4 or Battle sorcerer 4/Ur-priest 1/Enlightened fist 7/sacred fist 6/Mystic theurge 1 who could cast 7th cleric spells and 7th level sorcerer spells and it would only rely heavily on his Wisdom, Charisma, Strength and possibly Dexterity for which he would already get +3 Wis, +3 Cha, +2 Dex and would only need some help on strength but with caster levels polymorph is a good asset to have. Would this be a good thing to introduce as a mini boss?

[MeeposFire]

For me to make the monk really playable I like to change how flurry works.

Turn it into a variation snap kick. Any time you make an attack you can choose to use flurry and add one (eventually 2) attacks to whatever you are doing for a penalty (eventually no penalty).

This allows the speed to work with flurry since you can flurry with a standard action attack.


I personally like full attack bonus but that is less important.

[John Longarrow]

Would this be a good thing to introduce as a mini boss?

What ECL are you aiming for? Also, are you planning on having a boss that can create his own support troops in some way (summon, animate, ect...)?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Somebody did a monk build for a challenge Emperor Tippy laid down a while back that could solo all of the elder evils by itself. There was enough cheese in that build to choke a rhino, though.The thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial). And I think the build you're talking about is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863), though it might be a different build.

I reread the thread the other day, and I do rather like the other one that uses subjective directional gravity and a 5' jump to trigger Leap Attack, though.

Did Tippy ever choose a winner? I don't think he ever did.

Someone should get on that.

[Mato]

The 7th level Dark Moon substitution is actually legit good, and the at-will blink from Invisible Fist is quite nice as well. But the class as a whole suffers from being just a bit undertuned and frontloaded.Your two sentences contradict each other.

As a dip the monk class offers a lot of nice benefits, more than fighter for more builds, but when it comes to dipping most classes are front loaded. Barbarian lasts only a single level for lion totem, [psychic] fighter is 2, paladin for the charisma to saves is 2, even wizard is only three levels long before you ditch it for master specialist.

But when you hit the second level of monk you start looking at your options, if you stick around to level 5~6 to PrC out like most one-class base builds do you'll snag some extra damage, lots of healing, and another feat. Then as you brought up, dark moon disciple whispers the secrets of power into your ear. Why PrC out now when you can wait another level or two for shadow blend? Give into the temptation and mantis leap can be yours too.

And once you do, the base class them tries to tempt you with at-will blink. Level 8 isn't so bad your inner hooded Kermit says, you get a BAB increase so you don't need to enter another melee class. Unarmed goes up for more damage too and w/e you traded slow fall out for may provide another benefit. Just stick around for blink...

And then the next thing you know you're nine levels deep into monk killing everything in the game. It's something that almost no other class in the game actually does. You have a tempting reason to remain a pure monk for almost half the game, virtually every other class just doesn't offer up something viable enough to keep you from PrCing out but monk the does.


Now that I think about it, is it possible to make a mystic theurge like monk? I've heard of something dragonwrought kobolds use to get 3 more caster levels to sorcerer.Welcome to GitP where the rumors are more powerful than the incorrect usage of the rules.

What you mean is you should have heard something like using LA buy off and white dragonspawn to increase your sorcerer levels without increasing your effective character level. This can be combined with the greater draconic rite and a theoretically rolled abomination for up to four extra sorcerer levels with no level adjustment by the ninth level.


For me to make the monk really playable I like to change how flurry works.Just use the chaos monk out of Dragon #335, you're still limited to a full-round action but flurry provides +0~+3 attacks. And attacking four times as a full-round action is a good usage of your full-round, specially when you're at level 1.

And if you are a chaotic monk, the 10th level offers the temptation of changing that to 1d6-1. Wouldn't you like a chance of an extra five attacks? ~Inner Kermit.

[MeeposFire]

Just use the chaos monk out of Dragon #335, you're still limited to a full-round action but flurry provides +0~+3 attacks. And attacking four times as a full-round action is a good usage of your full-round, specially when you're at level 1.

And if you are a chaotic monk, the 10th level offers the temptation of changing that to 1d6-1. Wouldn't you like a chance of an extra five attacks? ~Inner Kermit.

Actually no I can do plenty of damage in 3e if I get a full attack. Getting an extra five attacks is cool and all but the whole point is that there are so many reasons you won't get a full attack that it won't matter (or times you do not want to stay that close to an enemy). Heck a standard monk abusing size increases can do alright in terms of damage but still have issues trying to make sure it happens especially if you are trying to use your class given speed.

My option does not increase your potential firepower on a full attack action (which is not really the big issue) but it does increase it when you really need such as when you move and as a monk you should be moving thematically (the only reason we don't is due to the rules that this particular edition forces on us). Now even in bad situations or when you want to be mobile you can make a fair number of attacks which was not really possible before and certainly not with this much accuracy.

The bigger issue is combat versatility I think not combat power. We can get power by using size increase if you need power but being able to apply it easily I think is more important. Combat ability for a monk is like an inverse rogue where instead of high bonus damage and needing to get extra attacks monks have the attacks but need to acquire the bonus damage. They can do that by boosting size increases. The need for more specific items is sort of like the restrictions on SA that makes it more unreliable so both have things you need to work around.


Oh yea that reminds me if you are allowed get the heavy arms graft and a battlefist or two. It increases your unarmed damage size by 1 and is able to be enchanted on the cheap.

[Ruethgar]

Welcome to GitP where the rumors are more powerful than the incorrect usage of the rules.

What you mean is you should have heard something like using LA buy off and white dragonspawn to increase your sorcerer levels without increasing your effective character level. This can be combined with the greater draconic rite and a theoretically rolled abomination for up to four extra sorcerer levels with no level adjustment by the ninth level.

Actually, only 3 Sorc CL and the addition that he specified Dragonwrought would more likely be for the Loredrake dragon archetype which all Dragons have access too by RAW regardless of weather or not you go into the True debate about DWKs. Furthermore, Dragonspawn Kobolds have to be Abominations and as there are no rules for their racial specific bonus you roll 3 times for a potential(but astronomically unlikely) +7 effective sorcerer levels, then Greater Draconic Rite for +1 more. And because of the rules of character creation, feats are applied last thus allowing you to be a White Dragonspawn Abomination Dragonwrought Kobold despite the fact that Dragonspawn can't be applied to Dragons. This results in a total potential +10 levels of sorcerer casting at LA +1, and with the Fearunean rules for powerful characters at level 1, you could even start at ECL 1 with a level of Sorcerer for a lovely 11 effective caster levels.

[gorfnab]

There is this Monk build by Venger from this Monk thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-483287.html).


Here's what I'd do:

Roll halfling.

1 hin disciple (underfoot combat as bonus feat)
decisive strike for flurry of misses
2 hin disciple (combat reflexes as bonus feat)
invisible fist (turn invisible as swift 1/3 rounds for evasion)
3 dark moon disciple (darkvision 60 for still mind)
4 normal
5 planar monk (energy resistance for wholeness of body)
6 normal pick imptrip as vanilla bonus feat
7 dark moon disciple (total concealment in all but daylight for wholeness of body)
8 normal
9 hin disciple (the harder they fall: allies get free attacks vs anyone you trip for imp evasion)
take confound the big folk as your real feat
10 normal
11 normal
12 dark moon disciple (shadow dimdoor for abundant step)
13 -20 normal

you'll notice after level 13 or so, monk acfs peter out. they didn't think you'd take that many levels of monk.

this build lets you trip everyone mercilessly and you're basically impossible to target or even really see.

skulk around, trip people, and kick 'em when they're down.

[MeeposFire]

Wait does that have anyway of using trip on critters that are much larger or otherwise immune or does it have an additional trick that makes it worthwhile?

Trip is something that is really powerful early and then gets annoyingly depreciated in value as you level.

[Mato]

Loredrake dragon archetype which all Dragons have access too by RAW regardless of weather or not you go into the True debate about DWKs.Actually Dragons of Eberron, like the Draconomicon and Dragon Magic, primarily discusses the collection true dragons using the word "dragon" rather than meaning the specific creature type so in context you are wrong.

And what the rules actually say in short summery is "all true dragons have the potential to use arcane magic. Most have the ability to select spells from the cleric spell list", this variant rule "replaces the optional spell selection abilities a dragon normally possesses" and "those wholly unable to cast cleric spells lose nothing". Misinterpretation over the word "dragon" aside, by RAW the archtype replaces optional a spell selection ability the previous sentences quantifies to be a property of true dragons. A kobold is not one (draco142) and does not have any sort of normal spell selection ability that is being discussed since they expressly require a feat or class feature to obtain it. No matter how well you attempt to polishing your stance, it will ever change the fact that is is nothing more than trying to offer an excuse to ignore rule content.

Finally, since your stance cannot be proven correct. - In an example, you cannot prove the entry means all dragons or all creatures of the dragon type. - No matter what rules or context you ignore. Anyone, and I mean anyone, that wishes to refute it for any reason, and I do mean any reason, they can and their rebuttal has exactly the same amount of merit as your does. It is not up to them to prove you wrong, that's a fallacy of shifting the burden of truth, and while you can try to prove them wrong you can never claim to have the correct answer.

And that is where you choose to sit at, hopefully out of ignorance on the matter, even through a perfectly viable alternative was already previously mentioned in this thread.

[gorfnab]

Wait does that have anyway of using trip on critters that are much larger or otherwise immune or does it have an additional trick that makes it worthwhile?

Trip is something that is really powerful early and then gets annoyingly depreciated in value as you level.
The feat Confound the Bigfolk deals with tripping larger opponents.

[MeeposFire]

As I recall this involves using a dragonwrought kobold which is a true dragon (it has the age categories and everything) and as you mentioned the true dragon does not need spells to trade so it works in that regard.

A normal kobold would not work and neither would one that had the dragon type but was not dragonwrought as I believe the age categories are only true with dragonwrought kobolds which is what makes them special..

[MeeposFire]

The feat Confound the Bigfolk deals with tripping larger opponents.

Ah yes this would work even better with my version of flurry since the trip attack in this case is a standard action and cannot be done with a full attack. Just another indication that what monks need is to get off of the full attack action.

[Troacctid]

As I recall this involves using a dragonwrought kobold which is a true dragon (it has the age categories and everything) and as you mentioned the true dragon does not need spells to trade so it works in that regard.

A normal kobold would not work and neither would one that had the dragon type but was not dragonwrought as I believe the age categories are only true with dragonwrought kobolds which is what makes them special..
Dragonwrought kobolds are lesser dragons, since they don't advance by age category (i.e. gain LA/HD as they get older).

Furthermore, as creatures of the dragon type, they're ineligible for the Dragonspawn template. (You'd have to already have it before you gain the feat at 1st level, which, for an acquired template, is not possible.) And as a 1st level sorcerer, you would not be eligible for the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. So if I'm calculating it right, this means at level 1, you can cast spells as...a 1st level sorcerer, just like any other race. Yay, I guess?

[Kelb_Panthera]

As I recall this involves using a dragonwrought kobold which is a true dragon (it has the age categories and everything)


Dragonwrought kobolds are lesser dragons, since they don't advance by age category (i.e. gain LA/HD as they get older).

Can we just, ya know, -not- go through this again? If somebody specifically asks just link them to the last time this argument was had and move on? Please?

[Ieagleroar]

Can we just, ya know, -not- go through this again? If somebody specifically asks just link them to the last time this argument was had and move on? Please?

I totally agree. We have had tons of these threads.

[Mato]

I totally agree. We have had tons of these threads.It's been fourteen days since the previous post, you really didn't need to second anything.

Also with knock down you can trip with any successful attack anyway.