Soloing Tiamat: How strong should a PC be?

[DiceDiceBaby]

Greetings, Giants!

So, in line with the thread that proved that Tiamat is, in fact, possibly beatable by a 4-man party of level 20 PCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379445-Tiamat-unbeatable-by-a-standard-4-person-party), I wonder if it's possible to solo her, Kratos-God-Of-War style. Let's find out!

What is the minimum level (past 20) for a PC to be able to face Tiamat in single combat and win (drop Tiamat to 0 HP)?

Rules of Engagement:

1) The solo PC can go beyond level 20 only by multiclassing (i.e. Fighter 15, Wizard 10, Monk 6 is a level 31 character), assume Point Buy for 27 for Ability Scores and 1000 GP to spend for equipment.

2) The solo PC has access (and attunement) to any three magical items of their choice, as per the normal rules.

3) The fight occurs in the Olympus Coliseum (http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Olympus_Coliseum) from Kingdom Hearts, where, like Sora versus Sephiroth, Hades, or the Ice Titan in the first game, the solo PC is set to go 1-on-1 with the evil dragon goddess herself, the bare arena magically barricaded so that escape is impossible for either of them by any and all means until one of them dies.

4) Cheap tactics to instantly win (Casting Wish for Tiamat to disappear, Divine Intervention begging your deity to fight for you, etc.) are automatically disallowed by the DM.

5) Only official printed sources and Unearthed Arcana are allowed for builds. No homebrew!

6) Assume three rounds (each may have a different build): Easy (Tiamat with her minimum 330 HP) Moderate (Tiamat with her average 615 HP) and Difficult (Tiamat with her maximum 900 HP).

Let the games begin! (I assume we don't need a level 240 Character that multiclasses across all 12 PHB classes to defeat her, right?)

So, how tough, with what magic items, and at what level, does our Kratos-esque PC have to be to solo Tiamat (from Horde of the Dragon Queen)? Is it even possible? :smallbiggrin:

[Byke]

20th level fighter BM // 3 UScout revised ranger for advantage when going first in combat. + 1 attack- 1st round and Hunters mark.

Feats: Max Dex, Sharpshooter, Alert

Items: Oathbow, (20 + 3 arrows , Res fire/cold/acid/lightning gear, Haste Item, Manual for 22 dex.

1st round win initiative and with action surge and haste that's 10 attacks

100 (SS) + 60 (Dex) + 30 (magical arrows) + 10d6 (Hunter's Mark) + 10d8 arrows + 30d6 (oathbow) + 6d12 BM -If you don't kill her in the first round you will finish her in the second

[MinotaurWarrior]

A simple birdfolk OH monk is virtually guaranteed to beat her at level 20. Her legendary resistance is 5/day, his Quivering Palm is 1/ initiative roll. Boots of speed, ring of invisibility, and, uh, I guess ring of wishes, 'cause why not. It's not a fun fight, but it works.

[DiceDiceBaby]

Well, at least this is only slightly less disappointing than all the threads dedicated to soloing the 5e Tarrasque (who can be soloed before level 20, apparently). At least Tiamat proves that WoTC is producing NPCs that at least require level 20s to solo now. :smalltongue:

Certainly explains how a bunch of kids with magic weapons manage to evade her for most of the cartoon. :smallwink:

[Callin]

When our group fought her I got the help of 2 crits but I knocked her down 2/3rds HP in one round. From my Ranger (Hunter) 5/Rogue (AT) 12 with a Longbow of Speed build, Sharpshooter, and a Flying Snake Familiar. My Snake was pretty close to where she comes in at so was able to make it there in 1 move. With the Poison it was 1d8+15+4d4+6d6 (Double dice from Crit), 1d8+15+1d8+4d4 (Double dice from Crit), 1d8+15+4d4 (Non Crit). Rolled well on damage. Next round I killed her. I honestly dont think the rest of the party other than the Wizard might of hit her.... Its been a bit though

[ApplePen]

Fighter (BM) 20 should be able to do this with GWM and it's associated fighting style. Alert, lucky, and maybe resilient wisdom for that pesky fear effect. Just going fighter 20 with a +3 polearm you can rock action surge for 8-9 attacks total. (You're rolling 18 d20 and 2 more up to 3 times if you miss, you're going to crit in there somewhere)
With STR 20 and a magic item for advantage in the first round of combat (there are a few that could accommodate) you'd be hitting her ac 25 pretty easily. If you take the -5 and count on superiority dice (precision attack) then you're nearly guaranteed to hit at least 6 times for 2d6+5+3+10, and rerolling 1s and 2s

Assuming you actually hit all 9 times (the 3 lucky rolls being used on 3 attacks without superiority) that's a base damage value of 162, plus 18d6. You're averaging over 232 damage and that's with no optimization at all.
Now let's add 3 levels of Assassin rogue, which gives us advantage on all those attacks without an item. In addition, *all* of your attacks are now critical.

Her base form has what, 300 HP? That one should be entirely killable. Base fighter 20/rogue 3 can do it without any trouble at all.
The way to kill her optimally is likely with a magical ranged weapon of some sort though. You could probably do it at 20.

[Giant2005]

Is there any form of cover where one could hide? If so, a Cleric could just Invoke Duplicity and have his illusion use Sacred Flame and Spiritual Weapon until Tiamat dies.

[ApplePen]

Is there any form of cover where one could hide? If so, a Cleric could just Invoke Duplicity and have his illusion use Sacred Flame and Spiritual Weapon until Tiamat dies.

Illusion's max range is the same as Tiamat's true seeing, and her passive perception is ridiculous. Good idea though, if you could somehow get a stealth check over 36

[Foxydono]

Illusion's max range is the same as Tiamat's true seeing, and her passive perception is ridiculous. Good idea though, if you could somehow get a stealth check over 36
A decent rogue with pass without trace and expertise in stealth and 20 dex has a +27 bonus on stealth checks and there are some magic items that grand advantage on stealth. Rolling a 10 or higher is quite doable with advantage and otherwie 50/50 :p

[Giant2005]

Illusion's max range is the same as Tiamat's true seeing, and her passive perception is ridiculous. Good idea though, if you could somehow get a stealth check over 36

The Stealth is pretty easily accomplished. A cloak of Elvenkind drops her passive protection to 31, and you can get +22 from Expertise and Pass Without Trace. Advantage on your rolls and a possible +5 (or even +6 with magic items) from Dex make rolling a 9 or higher a trivial task.

You are right in that it wouldn't work though. The True Sight screws up the illusion, but it also turns out that she is immune to magic anyway so that illusion wouldn't be able to do bugger all to her even if she couldn't see through it.

[Giant2005]

The most damage I can reasonably muster in a single round from a level 20 character is 486. That is quite a bit short of Tiamat's 615.
I think the difference could be covered by outside buffs, but that isn't really in the spirit of things.

[Giant2005]

Although now that I think about it, a simple fighter that has a Moonblade that has served thousands of masters would make short work of Tiamat. It could deal an extra 1000d6 on its attacks.

[DiceDiceBaby]

Some observations:

1) Tiamat's Hit Dice are 30d20 + 300 from her Constitution bonus (+10), and thus, at her weakest, we expect her to have only 330 HP, but at her average it is 615 HP, and at her maximum it's 900 HP.

2) For all the supposed superiority of casters over non-casters, it's funny to see that the go-to strategy to beating her boils down to "Win Initiative; Kill Turn One" with level 20 builds and Multiple Attacks to deal 615 damage in one turn, possibly because if she gets even a single turn, it's bye-bye PC.

3) Perhaps to beef up Tiamat and give her a fighting chance, maybe we should add the following rules to the fight:


Assume Tiamat always gets the higher Initiative roll, or better yet, that the PC is to prepare for a fight and doesn't know what they're up against, giving Tiamat a dramatic entrance and thus "surprising" the PC when they enter the Coliseum (ergo, Tiamat gets what is informally called the "surprise round" and we thus deprive the PC of having it).
Assume Tiamat, as Evil Dragon Queen, on top of being able to cast Divine Word 3/Day, subscribes to the "Variant Rule: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters" (MM p. 86), and that the DM optimizes her spell list for the fight, too (per the Variant Rules, spells up to 1/3 her CR, plus her CHA modifier, granting her an additional 10 + 9 spells, and with Divine Word, that's 20 innate spells total).
Assume Tiamat can fly up to a 300ft. radius of the Coliseum in all directions, but cannot otherwise leave the area because of the magical barricade. A PC that can fly is free to chase her or flee her in that radius too. (something like a mix between the boss fights of Sora versus the Ice Titan, Kurt Ziza, and The Phantom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4dfx098LZc))


Fairer fight, or not? :smalltongue:

Oh, I almost forgot this (quote from the "Tiamat unbeatable by a standard 4 person party?" thread starter:


Posting stats I can't do but I can tell you the stats and give a run down on what she can do.

25 AC, 615 HP, Speed of 60 ft fly 120, Str 30, Dex 10, Con 30, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 28.
Saving throws are Str+19, Dex +9, Wis +17. Skills don't matter, Immune to Non magic Weapons and all Dragon damage types. Can't be blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, poisoned and kinda can't be stunned. Dark Vision out to 240 ft and true sight out to 120. Cr 30

She can't die only banished back to her domain in hell. She has legendary resistence 3/day. She is immune unless she wants to be affected by spells of 6th level or lower and has advantage on all other spell effects., her attacks and natural weapons count as magical, she has regen 30. If she fails a saving throw against a spell that would stun her she loses 1 legendary action instead.

She possess multiattack. Which is a 240 ft range frightful presence with a dc of 26 along with two claw attacks and a tail attack +19 to hit. 24 and 28 damage averaged. She has 5 legendary actions. One for each Head. They can bite 32 damage + 14 of head type or take 2 actions to breath one of the breath weapons which is equivalent to it's ancient counterpart with a DC of 27.

[Squeeq]

Wait, WITH UA? Okay Twilight Druid 19 wizard 1. Upcasts magic missile to level 9, uses 9 of her dice to add damage. You roll once (1d4+9d10+1) and then apply it eleven times over to her. It averages about 400-600 damage (max is over a thousand) there is no save, and there is no attack roll. I don't believe she resists necrotic or force either so all the damage goes through. Also at that level Druid can be in wild shape to add extra HP to survive until the next turn, and do almost the same level of damage again.

[Giant2005]

Perhaps to beef up Tiamat and give her a fighting chance, maybe we should add the following rules to the fight

A CR 30 creature is supposed to be a challenge for a group of 4 level 30 characters. I think pitting Tiamat against a single level 20 character is advantage enough.


Wait, WITH UA? Okay Twilight Druid 19 wizard 1. Upcasts magic missile to level 9, uses 9 of her dice to add damage. You roll once (1d4+9d10+1) and then apply it eleven times over to her. It averages about 400-600 damage (max is over a thousand) there is no save, and there is no attack roll. I don't believe she resists necrotic or force either so all the damage goes through. Also at that level Druid can be in wild shape to add extra HP to survive until the next turn, and do almost the same level of damage again.

The Twilight Druid can only add a number of d10s equal to half his Druid level. That means a max of 10 d10s, not 99 d10s.

[Squeeq]

A CR 30 creature is supposed to be a challenge for a group of 4 level 30 characters. I think pitting Tiamat against a single level 20 character is advantage enough.



The Twilight Druid can only add a number of d10s equal to half his Druid level. That means a max of 10 d10s, not 99 d10s.

Yes, they as 9d10 to their roll to magic missile, which applies 11 times over, as per RAW and sage advice.

[Foxydono]

Yes, they as 9d10 to their roll to magic missile, which applies 11 times over, as per RAW and sage advice.
I get the 9d10, but how come you can apply it 11 times?

[Giant2005]

Yes, they as 9d10 to their roll to magic missile, which applies 11 times over, as per RAW and sage advice.

That is a pretty dubious ruling. If you can add 9d10 to something, then you should be adding 9d10 - not more than 9d10. Either way, no DM would rule quite so permissively anyway.

[Squeeq]

I get the 9d10, but how come you can apply it 11 times?

Magic missile shoots 11 missiles, all of which you can target at one person.


That is a pretty dubious ruling. If you can add 9d10 to something, then you should be adding 9d10 - not more than 9d10. Either way, no DM would rule quite so permissively anyway.

As written, it's the same as adding it I firestorm over a cluster of people, except all of he people are just one big dragon. This was explixitlt referred to in unearthed arcana due to evoker's ability. It's absolutely not intended but it's still technically RAW if we used unearthed arcana, which we shouldn't.

[Giant2005]

As written, it's the same as adding it I firestorm over a cluster of people, except all of he people are just one big dragon. This was explixitlt referred to in unearthed arcana due to evoker's ability. It's absolutely not intended but it's still technically RAW if we used unearthed arcana, which we shouldn't.

It would be RAW if the spell had any indication that you should be rolling 9(1d4+1) rather than 9d4+9. Considering literally nothing else in the game gets multiplied like that, it seems to be a case of people hearing hooves and instinctively thinking there are zebras nearby.

[Squeeq]

It would be RAW if the spell had any indication that you should be rolling 9(1d4+1) rather than 9d4+9. Considering literally nothing else in the game gets multiplied like that, it seems to be a case of people hearing hooves and instinctively thinking there are zebras nearby.

In fact, it does! "Strikes simultaneously" is what does it, apparently! It benefits from empowered education, as written.

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/610955844918886400
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/557820938402947072

[DiceDiceBaby]

A CR 30 creature is supposed to be a challenge for a group of 4 level 30 characters.

I used to think that, too, but then every thread on beating the 5e Tarrasque (supposedly strongest monster in the MM) proves that it a CR 30 creature can, in fact, be fought (and beaten) solo before level 10. Or even as early as level 1 or 2 given certain circumstances, as some would claim.

I thought Tiamat might be at least a bit more of a challenge. Guess not! It seems that any competent, well-played and optimized level 20 PC can challenge Tiamat 1-on-1 and win. This thread should have been named "What optimized level 20 PC couldn't solo Tiamat?", and we would have had a more interesting discussion.

Now I get the impression that the kids in the D&D Cartoon TV series were just humoring her as a threat. It does explains why they never seemed all that scared of her. Makes me want to see the stats for Venger...

EDIT: While pumping up Magic Missle to 9th level seems to bypass her Limited Magical Immunity, wouldn't a sadistic DM using the "Variant Rule: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters" feature reasonably have her innately cast Counterspell?

The next thread should be "Who can solo a level 20 Twilight Druid with Magic Missle?" (as though the unlimited Wild Shape capstone were not enough, seems we have our PVP champion build in the making)...

[MinotaurWarrior]

I used to think that, too, but then every thread on beating the 5e Tarrasque (supposedly strongest monster in the MM) proves that it a CR 30 creature can, in fact, be fought (and beaten) solo before level 10. Or even as early as level 1 or 2 given certain circumstances, as some would claim.

I thought Tiamat might be at least a bit more of a challenge. Guess not! It seems that any competent, well-played and optimized level 20 PC can challenge Tiamat 1-on-1 and win. This thread should have been named "What optimized level 20 PC couldn't solo Tiamat?", and we would have had a more interesting discussion.

Still, the majority of characters can't solo her. Especially the majority of characters people actually play.

The other thing is that Tiamat and the Terrasque are bosses. They're not supposed to be fought by a fully prepped gang of people who have spent their whole lives preparing for this day. They're supposed to be fought by a wary band of adventurers thrown together by destiny and run ragged by the journey so far. And then the party is supposed to win.

[Squeeq]

I used to think that, too, but then every thread on beating the 5e Tarrasque (supposedly strongest monster in the MM) proves that it a CR 30 creature can, in fact, be fought (and beaten) solo before level 10. Or even as early as level 1 or 2 given certain circumstances, as some would claim.

I thought Tiamat might be at least a bit more of a challenge. Guess not! It seems that any competent, well-played and optimized level 20 PC can challenge Tiamat 1-on-1 and win. This thread should have been named "What optimized level 20 PC couldn't solo Tiamat?", and we would have had a more interesting discussion.

Now I get the impression that the kids in the D&D Cartoon TV series were just humoring her as a threat. It does explains why they never seemed all that scared of her. Makes me want to see the stats for Venger...

EDIT: While pumping up Magic Missle to 9th level seems to bypass her Limited Magical Immunity, wouldn't a sadistic DM using the "Variant Rule: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters" feature reasonably have her innately cast Counterspell?

The next thread should be "Who can solo a level 20 Twilight Druid with Magic Missle?" (as though the unlimited Wild Shape capstone were not enough, seems we have our PVP champion build in the making)...

Unfortunately, to be able to scale magic missile, that's Druid can't also use the level 20 capstone - although I think there's a spell that defends against magic missile?

[DiceDiceBaby]

Unfortunately, to be able to scale magic missile, that's Druid can't also use the level 20 capstone - although I think there's a spell that defends against magic missile?

Oh right! Thanks for pointing that out, Quixim. Forgot about Shield, the ever-so-useful 1st Level Abjuration spell that renders Magic Missle useless. Never thought we'd see the day where it would be able to block hundreds of damage points at a single time... damage points that would be enough to level a coliseum and kill a god in the aftermath.

[Sgt Jiggz]

Valor Bard 18/Sorcerer 3

Only works if you can bring a simulacrum with you. Plan is to have the simulacrum true polymorphed into a metallic dragon or something else with a high flying speed that may serve as a mount.
The mount/simulacrum can haste itself thanks to sorcerers subtle spell, giving it a speed greater than tiamats by far. You sit on its back and slowly chip away at tiamats hp with a oathbow, bracers of archery and swiftquiver. 4 attacks/round about 0.5 chance to hit and average damage ~24 per hit. With tiamats regen it would take almost 100 rounds to beat her at 900 hp, with haste and swiftquiver needing to be recast every minute, but we got plenty of spells slots and means to stay out of tiamats range so it shouldn't be a problem. Would need almost 400 arrows also, equivalent to 20 quivers.

[ApplePen]

Toss "of warning" onto whatever weapon you're using, take Alert and Lucky, and nothing should beat you on initiative or get a surprise round on you