About Samurai

[DarthPenance]

So I'm a level two fighter and soon I'll choose my martial archetype, I'm you could say, or will be, the tank of the team, so I'm not picking any related to archery or magic, neither Battle Master because of preference, the ones I want are Champion and Samurai. My friends and I think Samurai is much better than Champion, however, my fighter uses a longsword and shield, and I don't know if that could translate to the Samurai, since they are usually depicted using two handed katana. Is it possible to be Samurai with my current gear or I'll have to change to a katana, and if I do, what are the stats for them, I cannot find them on the Player Handbook.

[Flashy]

There are no weapon requirements for any class. Be a Samurai and use a whip or a warhammer as far as the game is concerned.

There are no seperate stats for a Katana, but I believe the PHB suggests that they should be treated as longswords (though I'm away from my books).

[Beleriphon]

There are no weapon requirements for any class. Be a Samurai and use a whip or a warhammer as far as the game is concerned.

There are no seperate stats for a Katana, but I believe the PHB suggests that they should be treated as longswords (though I'm away from my books).

Katana are mechanically a longsword, a weapon that can be wielded in one or two hands with the only difference being a preference of fighting style.

[DarthPenance]

Thanks for the replies, so there are no weapons restrictions, my friends doesn't seem to think so, I try to convince them, but they say it makes no sense for a Samurai do wield something like a shield, so I'll leave it open for now and probably go Champion when I hit level 3. Again, thanks for the replies.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You could just re-fluff the 'samurai' archetype as something more conducive to shields.


The Samurai is a fighter who draws on an implacable fighting spirit to overcome enemies. A Samurai’s willpower is nearly unbreakable, and the enemies in a Samurai’s path have two choices: yield or die fighting.

There's nothing in there that says you have to stick to the technology used in edo-era Japan or whatever. It could just be a different variety of knight in your setting.

[Arcangel4774]

The eldritch knight, with liberal use of shield and absorb elements, is one of the tankiest fighter classes.

That being said maybe knight is more fitting for the defensive tanking needs. Besides horseback skills, that's really it's focus.

[DarthPenance]

Well, I'm not going Eldritch Knight since Int is my dump stat (8) and I've played a Wizard in two previous games, so I really don't want to play a magic user again. For the post above, I tried that, but my group said it doesn't make sense for a Samurai to wield shields and do stuff like that, so now I think I will decide between Knight and Champion. Inclining more towards Champion, since our party doesn't really have anyone that needs protection, the only one that is not meele is a Warlock and he is more tankier than most ranged magic users.

[jaappleton]

Tell your friends they're stupid.

They're letting the name of a class dictate how its played. I've played Bards as Magicians, where how a Bard would normally play music to distract enemies, I'd distract them with tricks.

"When the Half-Orc Warchief brings his axe down against Paul the Fighter, I take off my hat and a white dove flies at him, distracting him!"
-Cutting Words-

Don't let the name of something dictate how its used.

EDIT:
And if they're REAL sticklers about 'You can't use a shield because ___' even when you can, say 'Well, can't we treat my shield as my armor on the left side being considerably larger than my right side? Like an arm-length pauldron? Though note that because of the armor, you wouldn't be able to wield a weapon in two hands (So you aren't bypassing anything, and they can't say 'Well you just want to use a Greatsword and get the benefits of a Shield!')

[Ninja_Prawn]

Tell your friends they're stupid.

They're letting the name of a class dictate how its played.

I have to agree. Unless you're playing actual historical fiction set in real-world Japan, your friends don't have a leg to stand on.

And if they still can't divorce the name of the class from the mechanics, just say "well, my hakama pants cover up my fancy footwork, so enemies can't predict where I'll go and it's easier to dodge. That's why I have +2 AC. But as a point of honour I only ever fight one-handed (or, hell, play as a literal one-armed fighter). And I don't get the bonus if I'm not wearing the pants." Mechanically the same, and it plays into their dumb samurai tropes.

[Steel Mirror]

Here's a thread that might help convince them that samurai and shields can mix.

http://samuraiantiqueworld.proboards.com/thread/28/use-shields-japan

In general I'm totally of the opinion that the words on the class title shouldn't hem in the possibilities for the player in the game. Heck, I've seen rogues who were played as gentlemanly duelists, barbarians who were Sith lords, and wizards who were Victorian gentleman inventors. Does the campaign world you guys are playing in even have Japan in it? If not, why are they pretending that a class option inspired by movies and video games featuring folk hero samurai should be restricted by some kind of historical stereotyping?

But I've had groups like that before, so I understand that no amount of debate might budge them on this issue. If that historical link didn't convince them, at least rest assured that the Champion is totally playable. I personally prefer the Battlemaster, but you'll still have fun.

[Ravinsild]

Two things: Anime is not an accurate depiction of Samurai and neither are movies.

Samurai did use Shields.

http://samuraiantiqueworld.proboards.com/thread/28/use-shields-japan

[DarthPenance]

Thank you for replying
The thing is that, if anyone played Skyrim, my character would be something like the Blades, for those that did not play Skyrim, the Blades were originated by the Akaviri (basically Japan) and their traditional look was with heavy armor and one handed katanas as well as a shield. However one of my friends is huge fan of Samurais and things related to that, so he's quite sensitive in the matter, we'll meet tomorrow, so I'll try to convice them, but if I can't, there's still Champion to go on. Again, thanks for the replies and for the link.

[Herobizkit]

Historically, samurai and soldiers (bushi) did use shields until mounted archery became widespread, after which the shield was discarded for bow use.

In the 1e Oriental Adventures guide, samurai armor could be created as one set (O-Yori) or worn in pieces, each piece giving a 1 or 2 AC bonus. the 3e Oriental Adventures guide offered a few extra pieces of AC which could be worn over regular armor.

Ask if you can refluff your shield as armored sleeves (Dastana) which could work like a shield.

There's also the war fan (tessen) which could be used as a light shield.

I'd offer a compromise of a +1 AC; in trade, you're getting a free hand out of the deal. It's the same AC as the pre-4e Buckler with the added bonus of having the free hand.

[jaappleton]

Thank you for replying
The thing is that, if anyone played Skyrim, my character would be something like the Blades, for those that did not play Skyrim, the Blades were originated by the Akaviri (basically Japan) and their traditional look was with heavy armor and one handed katanas as well as a shield. However one of my friends is huge fan of Samurais and things related to that, so he's quite sensitive in the matter, we'll meet tomorrow, so I'll try to convice them, but if I can't, there's still Champion to go on. Again, thanks for the replies and for the link.

Your friend isn't a fan of Samurai. He or she is a fan of the romanticized Samurai in film and pop culture. That person is a fan of the idea of a Samurai. Their idea. Not anyone else's. And that's the problem. And frankly, it's THEIR problem. You shouldn't have to deal with it.

As shown by others in this topic, Samurai did utilize shields. So tell 'em to deal with it, you're using a shield.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Two things: Anime is not an accurate depiction of Samurai and neither are movies.

Samurai did use Shields.

http://samuraiantiqueworld.proboards.com/thread/28/use-shields-japan

I dunno, your link kind of says the opposite of that: "these were not hand held shields, they were large wood panels." And it's likely that the OP's friends aren't imagining '10th century men-at-arms' as being the samurai class; they're imaging 16th century noblemen, by which point firearms had made shields obsolete anyway.

[Ravinsild]

I dunno, your link kind of says the opposite of that: "these were not hand held shields, they were large wood panels." And it's likely that the OP's friends aren't imagining '10th century men-at-arms' as being the samurai class; they're imaging 16th century noblemen, by which point firearms had made shields obsolete anyway.

The entire thread has multiple depictions and instances of Samurai with shields. So they did use shields. Even if it was once. Just be like "my character is that one Samurai that used that one shield that one time like from history."

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I dunno, your link kind of says the opposite of that: "these were not hand held shields, they were large wood panels." And it's likely that the OP's friends aren't imagining '10th century men-at-arms' as being the samurai class; they're imaging 16th century noblemen, by which point firearms had made shields obsolete anyway.

If you look further down the page, it shows multiple examples of hand-held shields.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Tell the party wizard he has to be male, wear a pointy hat and a long beard, call himself Gandalf and restrict himself to the spells Gandalf used in LoTR. Fair's fair.

[Joe the Rat]

Barbarians can read, can be from civilized lands, and aren't prohibited from being Nobles, or Courtesans, or Cloistered Scholars.
Clerics aren't necessarily priests - they cast divine magic with holy symbols, but may have never seen the other side of an altar.
Eldritch Knights don't have to belong to an order, swear fealty, or own a horse.
An Oath of the Crown paladin can serve a democracy.
There are at least four different ways to be a ninja, none of which are called ninja.

Your group is getting hung up on the label, which has, beyond being the rationale for the added skill proficiencies, jack-all to do with the class. "Hotblooded Warrior" works just as well.

Hell, point out that taking the Noble (or Knight Variant) background is closer to being a Samurai (as social class) than this "pocket rage" subclass. Or that between their massive battle trance abilities and the resilience to fight with nary more than their street clothes, Barbarian is a solid chassis for a "Samurai."

[DarthPenance]

Thank you all for you responses, I understand and will talk to them about it, however I do have another doubt.
This one is in relation to the Dueling Fighting Style, I want to know that, even using a shield, does it still applies? I have read it and all it says is that you can't use two handed weapons and dual wielding, but it says nothing about shield. It would help if it could, since I plan on taking it if I go Champion.

[jaappleton]

Thank you all for you responses, I understand and will talk to them about it, however I do have another doubt.
This one is in relation to the Dueling Fighting Style, I want to know that, even using a shield, does it still applies? I have read it and all it says is that you can't use two handed weapons and dual wielding, but it says nothing about shield. It would help if it could, since I plan on taking it if I go Champion.

You can 100% use the Dueling fighting style while using a Shield.

[Anderlith]

Samurai of history were mounted archers.
Samurai of fiction are master swordsmen
Samurai of D&D are stalwart defenders
So it doeznt really matter about the source material.
What is in a name? Why a subclass of any other name would still get the Staredown feature

[Knaight]

The entire thread has multiple depictions and instances of Samurai with shields. So they did use shields. Even if it was once. Just be like "my character is that one Samurai that used that one shield that one time like from history."

It's also worth noting that while Samurai didn't tend to use shields, they also tended to be embedded in a culture where shields were extremely rare. Stick on in an area where shields are all over the place and odds are they figure out how to use them. Fighting classes in general tended to adapt to the weapons and armor available in their time and place.

With that said, historicity was out the instance a single Samurai archetype was made and they chose to avoid archery with it.

[Corsair14]

Samurai were mounted archers for centuries. When they weren't mounted archers they were spearmen, spear being the primary weapon of both samurai and peasants all the way to the age of gunpowder. I have not noted shields until later period when gunpowder weapons from the Europeans become common. Not saying they didn't exist, but the concept is odd since the primary styles of all their weapons took two hands and even a strapped shield would get in the way. The sword was always a secondary weapon and more of a mark of position. They had to be used for a very ritualistic style of combat or they flat out broke and I have seen mis-strikes in real life pop a well made katana in half even on bamboo. None of this swords banging against sword stuff you see a bit more of in European theaters(swords were made of stronger steel than Japanese crap steel). Armor does work and will destroy simple weapons like swords if you hit them hard enough, go youtube Battle or Nations or Armored Combat league to see what real weapons do to real armor in actual combat and how ponderous moving and fighting in armor actually is.

Note Japanese armor was never made of wood or bamboo. Ever. (just getting that in before someone tried to say katanas hitting wooden armor would be ok). I can actually put up a link if its still up(the author died recently) of how to build step by step every piece of armor by a guy who was a master armorer who is one of the handful(less than 5) non-Japanese to go there and get that rating from multiple years of study and work.

Curious though, where are you getting this Samurai archetype from?

[Sir cryosin]

Look your firends in the eyes and tell them I want to play a samuraiest character based off the blades from the elder scrolls games and lore. I'm not telling you how you should Invision your character please don't tell how to Invision mine. Don't be rude about it but just let them know. That it's your character I'll like to play my way thank you.

[Sir cryosin]

Samurai were mounted archers for centuries. When they weren't mounted archers they were spearmen, spear being the primary weapon of both samurai and peasants all the way to the age of gunpowder. I have not noted shields until later period when gunpowder weapons from the Europeans become common. Not saying they didn't exist, but the concept is odd since the primary styles of all their weapons took two hands and even a strapped shield would get in the way. The sword was always a secondary weapon and more of a mark of position. They had to be used for a very ritualistic style of combat or they flat out broke and I have seen mis-strikes in real life pop a well made katana in half even on bamboo. None of this swords banging against sword stuff you see a bit more of in European theaters(swords were made of stronger steel than Japanese crap steel). Armor does work and will destroy simple weapons like swords if you hit them hard enough, go youtube Battle or Nations or Armored Combat league to see what real weapons do to real armor in actual combat and how ponderous moving and fighting in armor actually is.

Note Japanese armor was never made of wood or bamboo. Ever. (just getting that in before someone tried to say katanas hitting wooden armor would be ok). I can actually put up a link if its still up(the author died recently) of how to build step by step every piece of armor by a guy who was a master armorer who is one of the handful(less than 5) non-Japanese to go there and get that rating from multiple years of study and work.

Curious though, where are you getting this Samurai archetype from?

One of the new unearthed arcana PDF it was for fighters have arcane Archer, knight, samurai, sharp shooter.

[Belltent]

Just to pile on, you can play any archetype however you want as long as it fits the mechanics (and even those are malleable.) The "samurai" presented in the UA easily could have been titled "knight" and none of us would be the wiser. (As a side note, the uproar about the fluff of the new paladins has been absurd.)

I play a beast master and at no point have I mastered multiple beasts, as the movie seems to imply is a thing.

[Gryndle]

I have to +1 the poster earlier on that said not to get too caught up on the name of the archetype. Play what you want.

For our current campaign I wanted to play a character loosely inspired by Pocket, from the FOOL series by Christopher Moore. But I had played rogues in the last two campaigns and other players wanted to do the roguish bit. So I made my jester a monk. He isn't monastic or even spiritual at all. he's just an acrobat that loves flitting around the battlefield making his enemies look stupid and beating them down with his hand puppet.

In play he hasn't been a perfect representation of Pocket, more like a what-if Pocket, Deadpool and Sterling Archer had a threesome and produced a love child from hell. He has been a delight to play.

I cant imagine having someone at the table tell me "You cant be like that! You are a monk!"

As for the samurai archetype...well it barely represents historical samurai as is. I would have no problem with someone at my table using the archetype and reflavoring it as any other type of warrior. Or simply being a samurai that realized shields are useful against the myriad threats of the fantasy world they live in. (And this coming from someone who has studied Japanese history and martial arts for the last 36 years).

[Corsair14]

Having read the UA now that I know of its existence, there is nothing samurai about it. It looks like a fairly weak archetype actually for the levels my games take place(like most campaigns, hitting 20 is never going to happen, they might never hit 15). Historically speaking the sharpshooter has more in common to a samurai mechanics-wise than the samurai archetype.

[Ravinsild]

Having read the UA now that I know of its existence, there is nothing samurai about it. It looks like a fairly weak archetype actually for the levels my games take place(like most campaigns, hitting 20 is never going to happen, they might never hit 15). Historically speaking the sharpshooter has more in common to a samurai mechanics-wise than the samurai archetype.

Good thing you missed the post in the middle of the UA Article where they explicitly stated they were NOT going for Historical Accuracy and were instead drawing from Pop Culture to make informed Archetypes such as movies, comic books (manga), TV shows etc...

Samurai, Knights, and History
While both samurai and medieval knights existed in the real world, our inspiration for both fighter archetypes is taken from popular culture (movies and comic books), not history. Our intent is to capture the cinematic, heroic element of both archetypes in the game rather than an accurate historical representation of either.

The whole point of my post was that this Samurai fanatic is trying to say "This is the only way a Samurai can be played" when at least 5 Samurai in the whole existence of Samurai used a hand shield. So yeah the Original Poster can play a Samurai with a hand shield because there's precedent for it. Not trying to be historically accurate, just trying to say their friend is dumb for believing a Samurai never used a shield and therefore OP can't play a Samurai Fighter with a shield.

[GlenSmash!]

The Blades/Akaviri did use shields. (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/oi13lpGLiRg/maxresdefault.jpg)

No one is arguing that that they didn't.

[Sir cryosin]

Having read the UA now that I know of its existence, there is nothing samurai about it. It looks like a fairly weak archetype actually for the levels my games take place(like most campaigns, hitting 20 is never going to happen, they might never hit 15). Historically speaking the sharpshooter has more in common to a samurai mechanics-wise than the samurai archetype.

In the PDF they said that these archetypes are not historical replications. But what media novals ect... See these class names as.

[Zorku]

I have to +1 the poster earlier on that said not to get too caught up on the name of the archetype. Play what you want.

I'm gonna expand on this. We aren't all just recommending that you ignore the name of each class and subclass because it's fun- that's something that the developers intended. The selection of classes we've got in the core book is intended to suitably cover almost the broadest range of character archetypes anybody could expect to play in a medieval fantasy setting, though there were also some time constraints for balancing things. These UA articles broaden options a bit, and eventually a lot of these details end up in some campaign book or stuff like the SCAG, and they mostly represent the kind of healthy tinkering that a company does with any popular game- but the basic idea has always been that if you wanted to play some reference to Sailor Moon, there's a way you can build and roleplay that. If you wanna be Reinhardt from overwatch... well that's a little tech heavy for most settings but you can probably pull off a steampunk version... and maybe come up with something to mimic the effect of barrier field without having to take so many mage levels that you're throwing out wall of force. Maybe a more vague reference to him and just using an illusion would be close enough- but you can definitely still get a lot of the pieces together (Some of the dash as a bonus action stuff combined with grapple gets you every part of the charge except for slamming enemies into a wall...)

The intent here is definitely not for everyone to always play the iconic thing that the class is named after, and provided that it doesn't melt everyone's brains, you can even reflavor whatever magic you want to be using, as long as you don't go changing the underlying mechanics of how it works (although I've seen much less from the developers specifically advocating for that, probably because it blurs the lines of the setting and that might get awkward for a lot of DMs.)

[Sigreid]

Dude, or dudett (nothing to me either way) all you really have to do is look your samurai fanboy buddy right in the eye and say "OK, he won't call himself a samurai, but that's still the chassis I'm going to use."

[Talamare]

Actually the most common Samurai weapon was the Naginata and Yari, the Yumi, and the Chokuto and Wakizashi

Only City boys pretending to be Samurai's ever used the Katana

So... Yea... TV & Movies giving people false perceptions

[Sabeta]

If you want an aetshteically Samurai but not really historically accurate one, here's a design that could function as a shield for you. Just ignore the big floaty ghost bits, and maybe even drop the hexagons too. Alternative, search google for "Genji Shield" for more ideas.
http://img06.deviantart.net/5ab5/i/2014/051/0/7/yoh_asakura_oversoul_by_morki95-d77a2l8.jpg

Samurai did use Katanas, it's what they're most famous for, but they were also man at arms, who were deliberately skill at multiple weapons. You don't build an army out of just swords, you need variety to counter your opponents. Samurai were also very good archers, for what it's worth. A trained samurai could fire 10 arrows as quickly as anyone else could fire a gun once.

[Sigreid]

Actually the most common Samurai weapon was the Naginata and Yari, the Yumi, and the Chokuto and Wakizashi

Only City boys pretending to be Samurai's ever used the Katana

So... Yea... TV & Movies giving people false perceptions

There's also what we westerners think of as samurai didn't really come into being until they had basically become irrelevant and codified what it was to be a samurai as a means of justifying their status in society. Similar to the french "gentleman" didn't come into being until they needed to justify their supposed superiority when guns made knights pretty useless.

[Davemeddlehed]

Well, I'm not going Eldritch Knight since Int is my dump stat (8) and I've played a Wizard in two previous games, so I really don't want to play a magic user again. For the post above, I tried that, but my group said it doesn't make sense for a Samurai to wield shields and do stuff like that, so now I think I will decide between Knight and Champion. Inclining more towards Champion, since our party doesn't really have anyone that needs protection, the only one that is not meele is a Warlock and he is more tankier than most ranged magic users.

You could still go EK with low INT. Just stick to buff/utility spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, Magic Missile, Grease, Alarm, etc etc etc.

[djreynolds]

Just play the new samurai and see how it goes. Fighting spirit seems pretty cool, two-hand the longsword and go to town.

[The Shadowdove]

Yeah don't let a picky dm push you into a media cliche samurai.

It's a widely diverse social class that changed over the span of centuries.

Any east Asian class from 200-400+ level will debunk many of the media myths while clarifying their influences.

At one point, in the later period, there were hundreds of different level of samurai with varied stipends. Some were indeed powerful lords and influential figures in their circles, but many were impoverished and pursued other trades despite the negative social stigma toward deviation of class. A common movie shown to depict this is "twilight samurai".

Heck, few high level texts will even mention the very few female samurai in favor of maintaining the "Good wife good home" mindset the prevails until modern times.

Look at samurai at different eras as well. While they were almost always an educated class, the aristocratic and warring periods are very different. Also, to varying degrees, Homosexuality was more than tolerated among many samurai, which is often left out because it doesn't appeal to the mass audiences .

Not to mention that samurai were not just a special elite. They were a small, yet noticeable, percentage of the population at different points in history.

The only thing that stays the same between history and fiction are the class systems which were established. There are many ways to refer to it. However, the ones which depict the kanji for the classes themselves will always put bushi at the front and merchants at the back. The Edo period class system is a prime example of this. 士農工商 (しのうこうしょう/Shinoukoushou) is read as "warriors, peasants, artisans, merchants" and is probably one of the most simple yet perfect examples of how society was generally structured. Much of the samurai history locks them into their own class and prevented others from moving out of theirs unless adhering to certain stipulations or given access by a higher ranking member.

[Little boy]

If you want to picked optimized approach to this, you need to look at how the fights in your game are done. Samurai are amazing if you have the one fight a day kind of deal. Of you have long drawn out fights over the course of a duengon where you can't rest, champion wins. If you don't want to optimize, you can still use this idea with what you enjoy. Personally, champion is the best tank. They don't have a resource short of hp and they just seem like a head banging derpy kind of fun. You can just do what You want