Incarnum and Poverty.

[SangoProduction]

I probably already know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask anyway, since I don't have any personal experience, and my characters per week has slowed to an incredibly crawl these past couple of years. My patience for personally crunching numbers and combing through 70 books each time I want to make a character has likewise waned.

So, Incarnum classes can bind soulmelds that take the spot of magic items in those slots. I think that most, but not all slots are used in this way (potentially). I don't think "Eyes" is used. Nor the "Armor" slot. Nor the "Weapon" which isn't really a slot, but can be a magical weapon. Of course, what self-respecting melee build totemist needs a weapon? ...don't quote me, but I think rings also aren't used.

So, the question here, with the reduced number of slots (and thus, reduced SRD-ready magic items available), is it worth going for Vow of Poverty on these guys? Assuming custom magic items are on the table, then is it? Of course...wands don't use slots...but that's what the wizard is for...but you buying wands for the wizard...ok, damn it.

I just kinda had an idea of a character that forgoes material possessions, and achieves unity with not only his own soul, but that of the fragments that fill the world (ie incarnum).

[Ssalarn]

VoP + Incarnum is a legitimate way to go, yeah. Incarnates and Totemists can make that work very well, and if you're playing a Soulborn.... Well, there wasn't really any hope there anyways.

[Red Fel]

I'm replying!


So, Incarnum classes can bind soulmelds that take the spot of magic items in those slots.

Well, to be more accurate, Incarnum classes shape soulmelds that fit over chakras. A shaped soulmeld, as opposed to a bound one, can work with magic items. However, you can also bind them, and unless you take a feat, doing so blocks the corresponding body slots.


I think that most, but not all slots are used in this way (potentially). I don't think "Eyes" is used. Nor the "Armor" slot. Nor the "Weapon" which isn't really a slot, but can be a magical weapon. Of course, what self-respecting melee build totemist needs a weapon? ...don't quote me, but I think rings also aren't used.

Actually, all of them are accounted for. In the back of MoI, there's a character sheet which has, among other things, a diagram of chakras and body slots, which indicates which chakras correspond to which slots. For example, the Brow chakra corresponds to eye lenses and goggles; the Heart chakra to shirts, vests, and vestments, and the Soul chakra to robes and armor. Oh, you're right about rings, though - the diagram explicitly says that there is no corresponding chakra for those.

That said, there are soulmelds reflecting pretty much all of the things you've said. Keeneye Lenses, for example, cover the eyes; Incarnate Weapon creates a weapon; the Heart chakra has multiple "vests" and "shirts," and the Soul chakra has... well, not armors, but aura-ish body coverings and robes.


So, the question here, with the reduced number of slots (and thus, reduced SRD-ready magic items available), is it worth going for Vow of Poverty on these guys? Assuming custom magic items are on the table, then is it? Of course...wands don't use slots...but that's what the wizard is for...but you buying wands for the wizard...ok, damn it.

I just kinda had an idea of a character that forgoes material possessions, and achieves unity with not only his own soul, but that of the fragments that fill the world (ie incarnum).

Well, first off, VoP hurts hard. And a lot. That said, yeah, Incarnum offers one of the very few class options (along with Druids and, to a lesser extent, Warlocks) that can survive reasonably without magic items. You're still missing a lot of pretty necessary abilities. But look over at the Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) - there are a lot of things there that you can do. Flight? Several options. Mindblank? Well, you can get nondetection and various mental immunities. Detection? Keeneye Lenses let you see the invisible. Miss chance? Several options. Teleportation? Blink Shirt. Stun, negative energy immunity? Necrocarnum Vestments.

Do you miss some things? Sure. Further, while you have a lot of options, you don't generally have them all at once - you need eight hours of rest to rethink your plan and reshape your soulmelds. But it's a start.

[Troacctid]

The main problem with Vow of Poverty on an incarnum character is that there aren't enough Exalted feats that you actually want! It's a lot more viable if you're a Soulcaster or a Sapphire Hierarch.

The other problem is that you honestly do still need magic items. Unless you're spamming open chakra spells (or the open chakra, psionic power), you're only going to have a couple of binds. And for a totemist, you've even got one or two binds that aren't taking up magic item slots at all. Which means you are never going to replace magic items completely, at least not until, like, epic levels, at which point you're really hamstringing yourself by giving up your 3m gp WBL, or however much it is.

[Kelb_Panthera]

99% of what Red Fel said; me too.

I'd also advise you have a word with your DM about what his ideas of good and evil are (how strictly he holds to RAW on the matter, what his disagreements with it are, etc) if you're going to play an exalted character. The RP requirements are a little stiff by the book and some DM's make them even stiffer.

He may just hand-waive it as not being important but if he doesn't you could find yourself in a very unenviable position very suddenly.

[Necroticplague]

Going VoP is never worth it, for anybody*. Even a Druid is better off not taking it*. However, for an incarnum using class, it's a bit less horrible than it is for anyone else. Note that magic item slots are only 'used up' when you bind to a chakra, not just shaping the soulmeld. So even full-meldshapers will have a few slots to spare, simply because you have a finite amount of binds you're allowed to use.

*= With the caveat of 'unless the campaign is so uncharacteristically low-wealth that many characters are suffering under similar limitations anyway.'

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How "RAW is God" is your DM? If he follows it exceedingly stringently, you'll find yourself unable to open doors, walk on floors, or look at anything made to be looked at (including books, signs, and statues). Because VoP is WTF. No amount of chakra binding can make up for that bit of rules insanity.

[dboxcar]

How "RAW is God" is your DM? If he follows it exceedingly stringently, you'll find yourself unable to open doors, walk on floors, or look at anything made to be looked at (including books, signs, and statues).

Please explain how any remotely reasonable interpretation of RAW would dictate such things. I think something a lot of people forget is that DMs generally realize that the game is meant to be playable to some degree... :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Please explain how any remotely reasonable interpretation of RAW would dictate such things. I think something a lot of people forget is that DMs generally realize that the game is meant to be playable to some degree... :smallwink:Are any of the things I mentioned in the small list of stuff that VoP allows you to use? The rules on the vow state that you cannot use anything that isn't in that tiny (and very exclusive) list without breaking your vow, and once you've broken it, you can never, ever get any of its benefits back.

I've had two different, unrelated DMs that ruled that way, so don't say it doesn't happen.

[Particle_Man]

Stun, negative energy immunity? Necrocarnum Vestments.


Aren't Necrocarnum Vestments too evil for the Vow of Poverty types? Even the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat requires a non-good alignment.


The main problem with Vow of Poverty on an incarnum character is that there aren't enough Exalted feats that you actually want! It's a lot more viable if you're a Soulcaster or a Sapphire Hierarch.

I guess a Cleric/Totemist/Sapphire Hierarch could pull it off vow of poverty (I picture a very unusual duskling). An incarnate can't have both vow of poverty (must be good, so only NG incarnates) and Sapphire Hierarch (must be lawful, so only NL incarnates). That said, see what your DM would say about the cleric's holy symbol being allowed for vow of poverty characters - that could limits your spellcasting (your turn undead would be crappy anyhow but would I think need the holy symbol too).

[Red Fel]

Aren't Necrocarnum Vestments too evil for the Vow of Poverty types? Even the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat requires a non-good alignment.

One very, very stupid word: "Vivicarnum."


I guess a Cleric/Totemist/Sapphire Hierarch could pull it off vow of poverty (I picture a very unusual duskling). An incarnate can't have both vow of poverty (must be good, so only NG incarnates) and Sapphire Hierarch (must be lawful, so only NL incarnates).

Soulborn could too, if you really hate fun.


That said, see what your DM would say about the cleric's holy symbol being allowed for vow of poverty characters - that could limits your spellcasting (your turn undead would be crappy anyhow but would I think need the holy symbol too).

Can a VoP have a tattoo? I mean, I think maybe they can have grafts, so I'd guess tattoos are similar? Isn't there a holy symbol tattoo thing?

[Necroticplague]

Can a VoP have a tattoo? I mean, I think maybe they can have grafts, so I'd guess tattoos are similar? Isn't there a holy symbol tattoo thing?

VoP can definitely have grafts. The prohibition on VoP is on materiel possessions, but grafts aren't. They're modifications to your character. Wings on your character are wings on your character, whether you were born with them, or had them sewn on later. The hard part is paying for grafts when you have VoP, though you always just have another party member pay on your behalf with your cut.

[Red Fel]

VoP can definitely have grafts. The prohibition on VoP is on materiel possessions, but grafts aren't. They're modifications to your character. Wings on your character are wings on your character, whether you were born with them, or had them sewn on later. The hard part is paying for grafts when you have VoP, though you always just have another party member pay on your behalf with your cut.

There you go, then. I don't recall if 3.5 has a tattoo holy symbol, but I know that PF does (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/toys-games-puzzles#TOC-Holy-Symbol). 100 gp isn't cheap, but if you can backport that, it's very fitting. Tattoos work with some versions of ascetic poverty.

[Segev]

VoP can definitely have grafts. The prohibition on VoP is on materiel possessions, but grafts aren't. They're modifications to your character. Wings on your character are wings on your character, whether you were born with them, or had them sewn on later. The hard part is paying for grafts when you have VoP, though you always just have another party member pay on your behalf with your cut.This is tricky on a number of levels. Technically, VoP requires that you donate your share of any and all loot to charities or the church or something. i.e., it explicitly has rules to prevent you from "not taking your share" or having somebody else pay for something out of what would be your share.

You ARE allowed to use some things if they're donated to you (healing potions, I believe, are on that list). And I think you're allowed to accept charity, if only because preventing somebody from doing something "for" you is hard under most circumstances.

But allowing somebody to pay for a graft for you is...very questionable. The graft itself does have a (very, disproportionately high) market value. You're probably better off having an ally cast some sort of shape-shifting magic on you under most circumstances.


There you go, then. I don't recall if 3.5 has a tattoo holy symbol, but I know that PF does (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/toys-games-puzzles#TOC-Holy-Symbol). 100 gp isn't cheap, but if you can backport that, it's very fitting. Tattoos work with some versions of ascetic poverty.

Again, they're items with a market value.

You'd probably have to have these things literally forced on you to avoid breaking your vow, and whether you could use them "out of principle" is still questionable. (Once given, they obviously can't be re-given and the cost is sunk so you couldn't insist it go elsewhere; it's wasting it not to use it for good. But still... There's a dramatic story potential here, but it's not something your party can plan for without the rest of them stepping into questionable enough moral and ethical territory that your Exalted principles may make it hard to party with them.)

[Psyren]

One very, very stupid word: "Vivicarnum."

Hey, I happen to like Vivicarnum (and restriction-removing adaptations in general.)

@OP: I suggest asking your GM to add Incarnum feats to the VoP list. The fluff is easy (forsaking material goods strengthens your soul.) One of my GMs tried this a coouple of years back and it made poverty a lot of fun without being broken.

[SangoProduction]

Hey, I happen to like Vivicarnum (and restriction-removing adaptations in general.)

@OP: I suggest asking your GM to add Incarnum feats to the VoP list. The fluff is easy (forsaking material goods strengthens your soul.) One of my GMs tried this a coouple of years back and it made poverty a lot of fun without being broken.

Could be cool.

[Particle_Man]

Another point - since there are not that many Exalted feats that you will likely want, you could wait to take the Vow of Poverty until after you have the tattoos/grafts put on you. Thus, pre-VoP you could pay for the grafts, and then at a higher level, take VoP. You miss out on some Exalted feats, but you get all of the other VoP benefits (and drawbacks).

[Segev]

Another point - since there are not that many Exalted feats that you will likely want, you could wait to take the Vow of Poverty until after you have the tattoos/grafts put on you. Thus, pre-VoP you could pay for the grafts, and then at a higher level, take VoP. You miss out on some Exalted feats, but you get all of the other VoP benefits (and drawbacks).

Oh, is VoP not one of those "must take this at first level" feats?

[Psyren]

Oh, is VoP not one of those "must take this at first level" feats?

You can forsake your worldly possessions at any time. (One would argue it's an even bigger sacrifice if you do it later, when you have a lot of them.)

[Segev]

You can forsake your worldly possessions at any time. (One would argue it's an even bigger sacrifice if you do it later, when you have a lot of them.)

Oh, no, it makes sense, but I hadn't heard of people picking it up post-level-1 before, and I wouldn't have put it past VoP being designed in a way that didn't make sense.

[Troacctid]

Vivicarnum is problematic because flipping the Necrocarnate class to good-aligned doesn't change the fact that it openly encourages you to murder people for their essentia. Which is obviously not really what an exalted character should be doing.

[Segev]

Vivicarnum is problematic because flipping the Necrocarnate class to good-aligned doesn't change the fact that it openly encourages you to murder people for their essentia. Which is obviously not really what an exalted character should be doing.

Maybe instead you need to be saving life for it? Mechanics for that would be hard. And let's not even get into how creepy "creating life" could be here...

[Psyren]

Vivicarnum is problematic because flipping the Necrocarnate class to good-aligned doesn't change the fact that it openly encourages you to murder people for their essentia. Which is obviously not really what an exalted character should be doing.

I'd say instead that it encourages you to "use all parts of the animal" by drawing power from the monsters you're killing anyway. Even Paladins can kill after all, that doesn't make them evil, nor does tapping into a resource that (a) nobody can use and (b) doesn't cause any further/undue suffering to the monster.

I mean, if you think Vivicarnum is evil because it's a resource you gain by killing evil monsters, you can make the same argument about XP.


Maybe instead you need to be saving life for it? Mechanics for that would be hard. And let's not even get into how creepy "creating life" could be here...

Generally if you're dispatching (irredeemable) evildoers, you are indeed saving lives. If a Vivicarnate powers up from that Mind Flayer, it just means he's got better odds of taking out the Mind Flayer's pals that are coming around the corner.

[Red Fel]

Again, they're items with a market value.

You'd probably have to have these things literally forced on you to avoid breaking your vow, and whether you could use them "out of principle" is still questionable. (Once given, they obviously can't be re-given and the cost is sunk so you couldn't insist it go elsewhere; it's wasting it not to use it for good. But still... There's a dramatic story potential here, but it's not something your party can plan for without the rest of them stepping into questionable enough moral and ethical territory that your Exalted principles may make it hard to party with them.)

On the one hand, they're items with a market value. But they're also items that aren't marketable once you have them. You can't exactly sell a tattoo off of your skin, for example. (You could, arguably, sell a preserved patch of your own flesh - ew - but by that logic you really can't use skin as a VoP, so let's sidestep that.)

Aside from the value of the inks, you're really just paying for the labor cost. And if memory serves, nothing stops you from receiving services that have a market value. Goods, yes, but you can receive services just fine. Being tattooed - or even tattooing yourself - shouldn't be that big a deal, particularly when you're inscribing your flesh with holy symbols and sutras.


Hey, I happen to like Vivicarnum (and restriction-removing adaptations in general.)


Vivicarnum is problematic because flipping the Necrocarnate class to good-aligned doesn't change the fact that it openly encourages you to murder people for their essentia. Which is obviously not really what an exalted character should be doing.

This. Basically, I have no problem with Vivicarnum as a concept, in a vacuum. My problem is that it comes as an afterthought to a really cool concept - Necrocarnum. This is an entire aspect of the mechanic that is inherently perverse and Evil. And I dig that. So the writers wrote up a lot of stuff that is alignment-locked (remember that, as an Incarnate, you can't use soulmelds with an alignment tag opposed to yours), then also wrote up an entire specific category of stuff that is specifically Evil (that being Necrocarnum)... And then said, "Hey, let's come up with a way to let Good characters use it too."

Clearly, they were okay with having alignment-locked stuff. Chaotics won't get this. Lawfuls won't get that. They were fine with it. But they made this inherently Evil stuff, with deliciously Evil flavor, and then said, "Let's make a Good version, just 'cause," with little explanation as to how the mechanics fit the inverted fluff.

That bothers me. It bothers me like the Antipaladin bothers me; it's just crammed in there to be an opposite-alignment alternative. It's unjustified.

[Psyren]

Again, I don't see it as "encouraging murder for essentia." Unless you have Vow of Peace/Nonviolence, even good adventurers are expected to dispatch their foes. It's only murder if those foes aren't deserving of death.

Merely "receiving a mechanical benefit for killing a foe" is not evil. By that standard, XP is evil, Cleave is evil, looting is evil, and many more.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is tricky on a number of levels. Technically, VoP requires that you donate your share of any and all loot to charities or the church or something. i.e., it explicitly has rules to prevent you from "not taking your share" or having somebody else pay for something out of what would be your share.You are supposed to donate "most" of your share of the loot, which means 50.00001% or so. The rest you can do whatever you want with, so long as you don't violate VoP. Give it to your party. Support your local wildlife conservation center. Give to a friend who just happens to give you new body parts as a way of saying "thanks."

[ZamielVanWeber]

Off topic but what is vivicarnum from? I never noticed it in my MoI and I am not finding online articles for it. Did I just miss it or did they add it to later editions?

[hamishspence]

In the section on the Necrocarnate - it discusses refluffing it into Good version and changing the name of various things from Necrocarnum to Vivicarnum.

[ZamielVanWeber]

No wonder. Not a huge fan of evil characters so always glossed necrocarnate over. Thank you.

[SangoProduction]

So, the general consensus I'm seeing is that it's basically not crippling to Incarnum users (other than that one that no one talks about).

Side question: What do you guys think of this homebrew for VoP? https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Variant_Vow_of_Poverty_(3.5e_Feat)

[The Viscount]

People have already touched on rings as a meldshaper.
Giving your profits to another member who then buys grafts for you seems disingenuous for the vow of poverty.

There is also the wide variety of magical items that don't have slots, such as wands, which you can still make good use of and VoP still bans. Without the use of them, Mage's Spectacles and Psion's Eyes become less useful as melds. So you can survive with Incarnum and VoP, but you're going to be at a loss for specific magical effects.

The homebrew is certainly stronger than regular VoP but has the disadvantage in that it's largely defensive. You become very hard to kill, but not much more effective in a fight, and there are many monsters and effects that can only be cured/overcome with specific effects.

[Segev]

On the one hand, they're items with a market value. But they're also items that aren't marketable once you have them. You can't exactly sell a tattoo off of your skin, for example. (You could, arguably, sell a preserved patch of your own flesh - ew - but by that logic you really can't use skin as a VoP, so let's sidestep that.)By that logic, you can't re-sell that potion of stoneskin or that sumptuous feast or the rare vintages of expensive wines that your friends just happen to share with you at every meal. Nor that lavish resort vacation your friends whisk you away to in a first class magical carriage ride.

Using this logic, you could live quite the luxurious "life of poverty," much like modern politicians seem to make fabulous amounts of money on relatively small government paychecks. Or at least live like they do.

And no, I'm not trying to draw this line ridiculously sharply; we're talking about grafts and tattoos which cost enough money to feed an orphanage for months if not years, here. Things that middle-class merchants could never afford.


Aside from the value of the inks, you're really just paying for the labor cost. And if memory serves, nothing stops you from receiving services that have a market value. Goods, yes, but you can receive services just fine. Being tattooed - or even tattooing yourself - shouldn't be that big a deal, particularly when you're inscribing your flesh with holy symbols and sutras.


You are supposed to donate "most" of your share of the loot, which means 50.00001% or so. The rest you can do whatever you want with, so long as you don't violate VoP. Give it to your party. Support your local wildlife conservation center. Give to a friend who just happens to give you new body parts as a way of saying "thanks."
Combining these two suggests to me that you could get a lot of "services" that are usually reserved for the elite and wealthy out of that kind of income. Heck, assuming VoP doesn't require Vow of Celibacy, you could rent out a brothel every night with adventurer-level money that you can't spend on "goods" but can spend on "services."

Or you could throw lavish parties; all it would take is "donating" the money to your party's "party fund" and then "donating" your time to planning the party and directing the purchases...made by your party, of course, not you.


Come to think of it, this could be a fascinating character to have as an NPC. A VoP Bard who just enjoys the lavish life because others keep him in it.




This. Basically, I have no problem with Vivicarnum as a concept, in a vacuum. My problem is that it comes as an afterthought to a really cool concept - Necrocarnum. This is an entire aspect of the mechanic that is inherently perverse and Evil. And I dig that. So the writers wrote up a lot of stuff that is alignment-locked (remember that, as an Incarnate, you can't use soulmelds with an alignment tag opposed to yours), then also wrote up an entire specific category of stuff that is specifically Evil (that being Necrocarnum)... And then said, "Hey, let's come up with a way to let Good characters use it too."

Clearly, they were okay with having alignment-locked stuff. Chaotics won't get this. Lawfuls won't get that. They were fine with it. But they made this inherently Evil stuff, with deliciously Evil flavor, and then said, "Let's make a Good version, just 'cause," with little explanation as to how the mechanics fit the inverted fluff.

That bothers me. It bothers me like the Antipaladin bothers me; it's just crammed in there to be an opposite-alignment alternative. It's unjustified.
Yeah, not only is Vivicarnum poorly thought-out, but the hypocrisy is just weird.

It is especially hilarious since this means you can have a good-aligned Vivicarnum Zombie. Because that makes sense.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Remember, you can't help others if you are dead (ghosts and necropolitans aside). If you're not a totemist, incarnate, druid, or psion, taking VoP is one of the absolutely worst ways to help others.

[Psyren]

It is especially hilarious since this means you can have a good-aligned Vivicarnum Zombie. Because that makes sense.

You're powering them with positive energy, why wouldn't it make sense?

Mechanically though I would change them to be Deathless rather than Undead.

[Necroticplague]

You are supposed to donate "most" of your share of the loot, which means 50.00001% or so. The rest you can do whatever you want with, so long as you don't violate VoP. Give it to your party. Support your local wildlife conservation center. Give to a friend who just happens to give you new body parts as a way of saying "thanks."

Technically, donating your share is actually optional. It's not in the Vow itself, so not donating won't lose you your vow. And even the section that does mention donating, only says that you 'should' not that you have to. While you can't carry money, you aren't prohibited from spending it. So it seems perfectly within the wording of the Vow to simply have a party member carry your money, and spend it on your behalf.