Chain Lash (Savage Species p. 43): a bunch of head-scratchers

[Jowgen]

The Chain lash from savage species is effectively the bludgeoning cousin to the spiked chain, but unlike the Spiked Chain or Scorpion Chain (the slashing cousin from SoS), it comes with some strange extra mechanics that are giving me a minor headache. The table lists it as a double weapon, but with the disclaimer to look at the text for extra rules.


The chain lash can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.

The things that bugs me is how this weird dual-type mechanic interacts with some other things, like item templates, special materials, weapon add-ons, WSAs, etc.

My best guess is that by RAW you have to improve the Chain Lash according to the double weapon rules, meaning you choose goodies for each end seperately. Then, when using it as a reach weapon... I guess you have to choose one of the double-weapon parts to act as the reach weapon. Or, maybe you then also (or instead) have to enchant it seperately as a non-reach double weapon for that use. I lean towards the former, but can't be sure. This is the first head-scratcher.

The second head-scratcher: when used as a reach weapon, is it still a 2-handed weapon? The SRD entry on double weapons mentions wielding them one-handed, so I think not?

Carrying on, if you can wield it as a 1-handed reach weapon, would that mean you can apply the Feycrafted to it? Now when you use it as a double weapon, your off-hand end counts as light, so do you therefore then get to apply Dex to attack with the light end? What about the main-hand end? The whole weapon is feycraft, and it is finessable in any scenario, so...?

This head-scratching continues when dealing with WSAs et al. that don't simply trigger on an attack. Lets say one end is +1 Lucky and the other is +1 Burning, and you choose to reach-weapon attack with the Burning end. Do you still benefit from the Lucky WSA? What about wand-chambers and alchemical weapon capsules?

There are probably more issues, but that's what's bothering me off the top of my head. All attempts to help sort this out are most welcome. :smallsmile:

[Jormengand]

I think there's another major problem...

"You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
"In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."

[A_S]

I think there's another major problem...

"You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
"In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."
I think the "in this case" from your second quote refers to the sentence immediately before that quote that you've omitted, which starts "If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon..."

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I agree that these rules are a bit of a mess, but my rulings would be:
You enchant the chain lash as a double weapon, treating each end separately.
If you use it as a double weapon, it doesn't have reach, and its enchantments each apply to their respective end as normal for a double weapon.
If you use it as a reach weapon, you must choose which end you are attacking with, and only the enchantments on that end work for those attacks. When doing this, it can be used against adjacent opponents (unlike normal reach weapons, but like spiked chains).
Enchantments that don't have anything to do with making attacks can be put on the end you're not using, and will have their effect as normal. This means you could use one end to fight with, and use the other end as a "stat stick" of useful non-attacking WSA's like Smoking, Spellblade, and so on. People already do this with armor spikes etc., so I don't see this as any kind of major balance issue.
As long as you're only using one end of your chain lash, you can choose to treat it as either one-handed or two-handed, per the SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm): "The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."

[Gullintanni]

I think the "in this case" from your second quote refers to the sentence immediately before that quote that you've omitted, which starts "If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon..."

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-Salient rules text interpretation-

Just wanted to nod my head in agreement. This is exactly how I read the RAW for this weapon.

[Jowgen]

That does seem to be the most sensible way of reading the thing.

So, unless someone contends with a different reading, all that I think still needs working out is weapon templates. The DMG II rules for item templates doesn't mention double weapons whatsoever, only ever talking about how they are applied to "the weapon", so I think that by RAW it isn't possible to apply 2 different kinds to each end and you only pay the cost once. It's a strange departure from how double-weapons usually work, but I think that the general-specific rules in this context do parse that way.

Lastly, there is specifically Feycraft. As it's been made clear that double-weapons can be wielded one handed, and the template only specifically excluded 2 handed weapons, I think it's pretty safe to assume that it can be applied. Remaining question is whether/when its Dex-for-attack benefit kicks in. Now RAI-wise, I see no issue with letting it apply across the board, since the chain is explicitly Finesse-able. But whether it works RAW-wise... here's the phrasing in question.


If the weapon would normally be considered light, the wielder can apply his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifi er to attack rolls made with it, as if he had the Weapon Finesse feat.

[Necroticplague]

Well, first off, we have to start with the fact it's 3.0 material, and try to convert to 3.5 weapon rules to make sense of it. Looking at the weapon charts and trying to works backwards for something reasonable, the Chain Lash is an Exotic Melee Two-handed Double Weapon, that can trade in it's double weapon ability for reach. So since it's a two-handed weapon, you can't apply Feycraft to it, much like you can't apply Feycraft to a quarterstaff (as, even with it's double property, a quarterstaff is still a two-handed weapon).

[Jowgen]

Well, first off, we have to start with the fact it's 3.0 material, and try to convert to 3.5 weapon rules to make sense of it. Looking at the weapon charts and trying to works backwards for something reasonable, the Chain Lash is an Exotic Melee Two-handed Double Weapon, that can trade in it's double weapon ability for reach. So since it's a two-handed weapon, you can't apply Feycraft to it, much like you can't apply Feycraft to a quarterstaff (as, even with it's double property, a quarterstaff is still a two-handed weapon).

I think I have to disagree on this "Exotic Melee Two-Handed Double weapon" classification. Double-weapons can be wielded two-handed, same as one-handed weapons, but are nonetheless distinct from the 2-handed weapon category in text. The fact that some tables lump them together with 2-handed weapons doesn't change their seperate-ness. So, I don't think think we can exclude the Chain Lash from Feycrafted on the basis of it being two-handed-capable.

Looking at the text of Fey-crafted, I think we end up with some irksome ambiguity.


The feycraft template can be added only to light or one-handed melee weapons, and to ranged weapons. It cannot be added to two-handed weapons...

There is no mention of Double-weapons, which can function as either 2-handed or as one-handed + light depending on how you wield them. It seems like the writers didn't feel like considering them as a seperate category for this. One approach would be to simply sort double-weapons into one of the categories, but I don't think that's a simple matter.

On the one hand, double weapons do always occupy both hands while wielded, which would indicate that they should be treated as 2-handed weapons like you said. On the other hand, the default wielding method for double-weapons is to use the TWF-mechanic (as opposed to the 2-handed mechanic), wherein each end functions as either a "light or one-handed melee weapon" depending on which is chosen as the primary.

Considering that the chain is finesseable, and that the qualfier of feycraft for built-in finesse is that the weapon be "normally considered light", which we know for certain applies to one end of the weapon by default, I think the ambiguity leans in favor of Feycraft. Not to say that I am firmly in that camp, but looking at it all, I feel like there is more in support of it at the moment. Opinion open to change.

[DrMotives]

I don't like your reasoning, but I do agree with your conclusion. Saying a double-weapon can be fey-crafted because one end is light feels like a cop-out, a double weapon is more like a tow-handed weapon than a light, despite one end being declared light when fighting with both ends. However, the reasoning behind the fey-craft restriction is a concept of light weight weapons for a more dex themed warrior. A little weird considering how many fairy stories have fey realms full of of ogres & giants swinging whole trees as clubs, but whatever. The chain lash is a ninja weapon, so the archetype that uses it is a light dex based fighter, just like the thinking behind fey-craft. The fact it is finesse-able like the spike chain seals it for me.

I've often thought that there's a lot of similarity between classic British fairy stories and Japanese folklore. Miyazaki's Spirited Away could just as well be a girl in a Welsh fairy realm as the one past the abandoned amusement park in Japan instead. All the tropes of the nature spirits and fey creatures with their own rules sets, heroes who persevere by playing off the fey rules to outwit the sneaky immortals, it feels very much the same.