"Drunken Master" Monk Barbarian

[Quoxis]

As often, i've come up with a multiclassing idea that may be interesting to (role)play:

A dwarven monk-barbarian.

The basic idea behind it is a martial artist using "drunken boxing" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_quan) as portrayed in the "drunken master" movies and various other media: the fighter consumes huge amounts of alcohol which makes their movements unpredictable, therefore they hit more and get hit less (of course irl this doesn't work if only because the actual martial style needs an incredible amount of balance and control). Fluffed out: my character chugs a bottle of self brewed booze (basically lighter fluid) as a bonus action, thus entering rage.

Now i'm facing a problematic decision:
How the hell can i build this to be at least a bit viable? I know there's little enough synergy to make an optimized build, but i want it to work.

The possibilities for this MADness are either a strength-based monk or a dexterity-based barbarian, or both and lower con/wis (cha/int are going to be dumped anyway).

Priority on str:
+ can use more aspects of rage (including rage bonus damage; would i do bonus damage on the flurry of blows attacks too?)
+ reckless attack (does that mean advantage on flurry of blows too?)
- lower dex, therefore eating hits, and that with less hp than a pure barb

Priority on dex:
+ can use this instead of strength when wielding monk weapons
+ higher AC (combined with danger sense etc. potentially able to dodge almost everything)
- no reckless attack
- less useful raging (no bonus damage)

So far, i think about starting as monk (unarmored defense = 10+dex+wis), making my stats dex>wis>con>str>cha/int, going open hand style, then after some time dipping barb, going totem warrior (probably bear, possibly eagle) and raging for the sake of taking less damage when i get hit (which shouldn't happen too often), because that fits the idea of the instinctive dodging better.

Any ideas? Did i miss something? Did i make errors (except crossing two classes that are so different)? Is the str-path better in anyone's opinion, or should i prioritize wis, con, maybe even cha for some reason?


Disclaimer:
I know this isn't optimized.
I won't change classes or race.
I won't dip into warlock (which seems to be the common solution for most build problems, at least according to some).

[Maxilian]

-You can use Reckless Attack with your DEX build

-If you want the STR build but have problems with the idea of getting hit a lot, then, have CON as one of your main stat (so you can take hits, and as a Barb it applies to your AC)

-Also for STR build you could get Mobile (feat) to make your character a Hit and Run character (only use this tactic when you hit, if you don't stay in range cause if you don't take damage or do damage the Rage will go away)

-Could get the Eagle Totem to take more advantage of the Mobile feat and make your character quite mobile (you don't have to worry about your AC much when you are not in your enemies range)

Note: Yes, Reckless Attack apply to Flurry of Blows

Note2: Also i don't think you should go with Open Hand monk (as that need a good WIS) and that will make your more MAD, why not go with something that doesn't need much of the WIS (and concentrate on using the Barb Unarmed Defense, instead of the Monks)

Note3: If you start as a Barb you will have more HP (as you will have the Max hit dice on your First Lvl. Aka. 12) -Barb also give you CON saves, those are pretty nice, Monk will only give you STR and DEX save, so even if you are going with a DEX build, i may recommend you to start out as Barb

[Quoxis]

-You can use Reckless Attack with your DEX build

-If you want the STR build but have problems with the idea of getting hit a lot, then, have CON as one of your main stat (so you can take hits, and as a Barb it applies to your AC)

-Also for STR build you could get Mobile (feat) to make your character a Hit and Run character (only use this tactic when you hit, if you don't stay in range cause if you don't take damage or do damage the Rage will go away)

-Could get the Eagle Totem to take more advantage of the Mobile feat and make your character quite mobile (you don't have to worry about your AC much when you are not in your enemies range)

Note: Yes, Reckless Attack apply to Flurry of Blows

Note2: Also i don't think you should go with Open Hand monk (as that need a good WIS) and that will make your more MAD, why not go with something that doesn't need much of the WIS (and concentrate on using the Barb Unarmed Defense, instead of the Monks)

Note3: If you start as a Barb you will have more HP (as you will have the Max hit dice on your First Lvl. Aka. 12) -Barb also give you CON saves, those are pretty nice, Monk will only give you STR and DEX save, so even if you are going with a DEX build, i may recommend you to start out as Barb

The con+str barb is also a good way, but it means sacrificing the chance to hit if your hit stat isn't the highest one (though with mountain dwarf and standard array you could land both highest stats on a +3 mod...)

Reckless attack only applies if i attack using strength, which i wouldn't do if i played the dex build. That and the rage bonus damage on str attacks (multiple ones if you count flurry in) are some good points speaking for str.

Open hand is wis-intensive, yes, but neither shadow nor elements, sun soul or death really fit the kung-fu character (which doesn't mean they're not beyond awesome, but this character is heavily roleplay based). I could go more into barb and stop monking after a few levels though (depending on the monk weapon dice; i may wanna grab more damage, unless barb bonus damage is higher... I have to check that).

Also thanks for the feat idea. I don't even remember that one tbh, it's not that commonly used (sentinel and gwn are laughing at this) but i'll check it out as soon as i'm back home.

Thousands of thanks though for not just saying "this sucks, go monk-warlock!!1!" and actually helping, i was expecting the worst ^^'

[JellyPooga]

Reckless Attack doesn't apply to attacks using Dex, nor does Rage damage.

Both apply to any attacks made using Str, making this particular MC pretty much a requirement to be Str-based. This means your AC will suffer. However, your damage output will be pretty good. With the high number of attacks from Martial Arts/Flurry and Extra Attack, the Rage bonus damage and Advantage to hit means you'll be outputting high and reliable damage. For example;

At level 7 (Monk 5/Barb 2), you'll be able to output four attacks (1 standard +1 Extra Attack +2 Flurry) at +6 to hit, with advantage, dealing 1d6+3 Str+2 Rage for an average of 34 damage (36 if using a quarterstaff two-handed) if all attacks hit. Nothing to be sniffed at (by comparison, a Rogue is probably dealing 1d8+4d6+3 = average approx. 21). On the flipside of that, your AC is probably only 15 (10+3 Con +2 Dex) wth advantage to hit you. But, you'll also be halving all incoming weapon damage and have pretty good HP (19 Barbarian +25 Monk +21 Con +7 Hill Dwarf = 72), so you're hardly a "glass cannon".

It's far from a mega-optimised way to go, but it's not as sub-par as you might think. Add some decent magic items or a good set of rolled stats and the build could become pretty monstrous.

edit: I'll second Mobile + Eagle Totem...combos up nicely with the Monks movement bonuses.

Additionally, I'd recommend aiming for more Monk than Barbarian. Barbarian 4/Monk 16 is probably your end-goal, though there is an argument for leaving Monk low in favour of the higher Rage damage bonus, seeing as Monk doesn't give you any further attacks after you get Flurry. I'd avoid doubling up on Extra Attack, either way, so Monk 4/Barb 16 OR Barb 4/Monk 16 is probably the choice you want to make.

[Quoxis]

Reckless Attack doesn't apply to attacks using Dex, nor does Rage damage.


Just for the record: i knew that, that's why i put "no reckless attack" into the dex-priority build description. I don't want anyone to assume i didn't read up on at least the basics :D

Thanks for the insight and the calculations compared to other builds, you need experience to do that and i've got a lack of exactly that. It's reassuring to read stuff like that. I figured multiple attacks with bonus damage added on each one of them wouldn't be bad, but it looks much more potent written out like that.

I assume it's mainly the higher flurry damage and ki points that make you choose monk over barbarian in the later levels, is that correct or are there more good features that i shouldn't miss out on? I considered taking a few more barb levels for higher rage damage, though i don't know (and currently can't look up) the specifics.

[Maxilian]

Reckless attack only applies if i attack using strength, which i wouldn't do if i played the dex build. That and the rage bonus damage on str attacks (multiple ones if you count flurry in) are some good points speaking for str.

My bad with the RA thing.



Open hand is wis-intensive, yes, but neither shadow nor elements, sun soul or death really fit the kung-fu character (which doesn't mean they're not beyond awesome, but this character is heavily roleplay based). I could go more into barb and stop monking after a few levels though (depending on the monk weapon dice; i may wanna grab more damage, unless barb bonus damage is higher... I have to check that).


Well you could reflavor the abilities (not sure how you would reflavor them, but that's also part of the fun), maybe as a Shadow monk, you're actually a Monk that made a pact with a tricky demon while he was **** faced drunk, so he doesn't really remember, and when he teleports from one shadow to the other, he doesn't really know how he did that (but he is normally way too drunk to even realize what actually happened).




Also thanks for the feat idea. I don't even remember that one tbh, it's not that commonly used (sentinel and gwn are laughing at this) but i'll check it out as soon as i'm back home.


One of my favorite feats



Thousands of thanks though for not just saying "this sucks, go monk-warlock!!1!" and actually helping, i was expecting the worst ^^'

Always at your service, i love weird character concepts (most of my characters are min/maxed but not optimized)

[JellyPooga]

Barbarian doesn't really add much except more Rage damage after level 4 and that's countered by better base unarmed strike damage of the Monk. Better initiative, more Rages, better crit damage. That's it.

Monk adds more base damage per attack and Ki points, as you say. That's the main boons. Aside from that, the Monk features probably fit the concept better than the Barbarian ones. All the Monk-y goodness like Evasion, Diamond Body, etc. fit the Drunken Master style of character, I think, not to mention Stunning Fist at 5th...even with a lowish Wisdom, it's a game-changing ability.

[Maxilian]

I assume it's mainly the higher flurry damage and ki points that make you choose monk over barbarian in the later levels, is that correct or are there more good features that i shouldn't miss out on? I considered taking a few more barb levels for higher rage damage, though i don't know (and currently can't look up) the specifics.

Well there's no point on having more 5 or more lvls in both classes (as the Extra Attack perk will most likely be wasted as you already have it from the other), the Monk gives you Stunning Strike at lvl 5 (that's really good, but if Wis is not going to be one of your main stat, is not reliable), i personally think that the extra ki points are really important, also at lvl 6 Monk you get the ability to make your UA magical, not that relevant at low lvls, but then it becomes a most.

Note: The Rage damage goes up quite slowly, so you will take more advantage of the extra Ki Points, though the ability to use your rage more often is quite handy.

Note2: If you end up going Open Hand Monk, it also give you a better lvl 6 ability (the chance to heal yourself, making you ever harder to kill)

[JellyPooga]

the Monk gives you Stunning Strike at lvl 5 (that's really good, but if Wis is not going to be one of your main stat, is not reliable)

Even with a Wisdom of "only" 14, Stunning Strike has DC:13 at level 5. That's good for at least a 50/50 chance against most foes, if not better. There's not a huge number of opponents with a +3 Wis Save at level 5. With a minimum of 2 attacks a round (if not 3 or 4), you're odds on to make it stick every round you use it.

[Quoxis]

Well you could reflavor the abilities (not sure how you would reflavor them, but that's also part of the fun), maybe as a Shadow monk, you're actually a Monk that made a pact with a tricky demon while he was **** faced drunk, so he doesn't really remember, and when he teleports from one shadow to the other, he doesn't really know how he did that (but he is normally way too drunk to even realize what actually happened).

The TES fan in me screams SANGUINE :D
Another explanation could be that a particularly high alcohol level or a special ingredient triggered something inside him - like sorcerer, but with monk magic.

Also when it comes to death monks:
3rd level: heals self on kill if i remember correctly. If an inspiring speach can do that (feat), i think the glory of having ended a life can, too.
6th level: scares others. Nothing you couldn't roleplay.
11th level: shrugging off a drop to 0hp, instead getting down to 1: basically a halforc. Roleplay like that, or that the booze is numbing the pain to be barely bearable.

But for the martial arts theme i'll stay open hand. I know i'll never use some of it, but still.

[Drackolus]

Don't sweat overlapping multiattack. Dead levels don't kill fighters, they won't kill you.
I think you'll want at least 6 levels in barb so you can get 4 rages, and feral instinct at 7 is sweet too. You don't wanna be too low in monk either, so that you still have ki points. Also, if you're reckless attacking with low ac, hp is a MUST. You will get killed for sure if you don't have a huge con or the tough feat. Either dwarf type is a great option though.
Don't worry about a low wisdom either. It doesn't impact your damage or ac, only a frlew dc's. 5e is swingy enough to use those abilities with a low wisdom, and all your physical stats are more crucial. 14 wis and never look back.
Oh, and lvl 1 has to be barb. By raw, you ONLY get the first unarmored calculation, meaning you won't get the second one at all. Also 4 more health is also pretty important for surviving the early levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The stats are doable, I think. Try Hill Dwarf; 16 Con and 14 Str, Dex, and Wis. Get to your first ASI as soon as possible and boost Str, and use the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense. Your AC won't be great, but you'll be able to suck up the extra hits just fine.

[Samayu]

I had just been looking at Monk/Barbarian to see if it was viable, and I decided it wasn't. But I didn't realize how viable a STR monk is. And with Barb first, for the AC, and making STR-based unarmed attacks, yeah, this would definitely work.

Reckless attack must be used with a STR attack, and can only be used on the first attack of the turn. Flurry of blows may be either.

Flurrying for four unarmed attacks per turn with +2 rage bonus sounds like fun. :smallbiggrin:

[bid]

Just a quick note: you will not learn the second unarmored defense at all. This means if you start barbarian, you can never use the 10+Dex+Wis AC from monk. It's one of the silly restriction of the MC chapter.

[Samayu]

I agree that it's silly. Given how many things overlap from the two classes, and therefore don't apply, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to be pick the better number of the two. It's a small benefit.

[Quoxis]

Just a quick note: you will not learn the second unarmored defense at all. This means if you start barbarian, you can never use the 10+Dex+Wis AC from monk. It's one of the silly restriction of the MC chapter.

I know. That's part of why i asked about how high wis should be and if starting monk was ok.

[Potato_Priest]

I did this rather artfully a while back myself. I would reccomend going into barbarian first, with a single dip into monk for the bonus attack and D4 fists. Really, all you need from the monk class is your strength and rage bonus an additional time per turn, and then I would go back to barbarian to polish yourself off with your higher-level abilities. Strength also works better for Drunken brawler flavor, as you don't want a brawler who literally cannot hold onto or shove an enemy (str, not dex, is your grapple/shove stat).

[JellyPooga]

Reckless attack must be used with a STR attack, and can only be used on the first attack of the turn. Flurry of blows may be either

Just to clarify; you choose to use Reckless Attack when you make your first attack in a turn, but you get advantage on all attacks you make in that turn.

@Potato_Priest - There's a fair difference in concept between "Drunken Brawler" and "Drunken Master". One's a lout, the other is a martial artist. Not taking Monk to at least level 5 for Stunning Fist would be churlish toward the concept the OP is going for, IMO and at that point you really want to have a decent sized Ki pool, which encourages a greater focus on Monk than Barbarian.

@Drackolus - I agree that more Rages and Feral Instinct are tasty, but I think it comes down to where you draw the line. If you're springing for level 7 Barbarian, do you want to go lvl.8 for the ASI? If you're going lvl.8, it's only one more level to get Brutal Critical, etc. Very few MC builds benefit from equalizing their levels too much; as a rule, higher level abilities are much better than lower level ones (e.g. spells). Monks buck this trend a little, inasmuch as their high level abilities aren't great, but this is offset by their reliance on Ki and abilities that scale with Monk level only (e.g. unarmed damage).

Barbarian 6 (compared to Barbarian 4) gives you one extra Rage per day, a ribbon Path feature (lvl.6 Path features aren't great) and an extra 10ft movement at the cost of 2 Ki points per short rest, the ribbon feature Timeless Body and an ASI. We can pretty much ignore the Path feature vs. Timeless Body, which leaves us 10ft movement vs. an ASI and +1 Rage vs. +2 Ki points. The ASI clearly wins that contest and only game style will determine whether more Rages per day will be more valuable than more Ki points per short rest (I suspect the latter).

Going to Barbarian 7 for Feral Instinct means losing Diamond Soul as a pretty neat "capstone". I wouldn't recommend it.

[Quoxis]

@JellyPooga thanks for understanding and defending the concept.
Rage vs. Ki is mostly dependant on the DM's style: more encounters per day? Rage. Less encounters, but long fights? Ki.

@PotatoPriest thanks for the idea, but as JP said, i'll head for more ki points, if only to get more flurries. I'm not that convinced about stunning strike, but we'll see about that. This doesn't mean this build is superior to yours, it just fits the character idea better.

[Lombra]

STR=CON>DEX=WIS>CHA>INT
use barbarian's unarmored defense, don't go beyond barbarian 3 (if you really want the feat then go 4... but you miss on quivering palm if you get there) if you feel you're too weak then pick either tough or a shield. Mobile is very useful to all monks and helps you get out of danger, so keep that in mind. The flavour of the rage=drunk buff is wonderful and I love it btw.

Edit: a friend of mine played this build a while back and he was the mvp of the group at barb 2/ monk 3

[Quoxis]

STR=CON>DEX=WIS>CHA>INT
use barbarian's unarmored defense, don't go beyond barbarian 3 (if you really want the feat then go 4... but you miss on quivering palm if you get there) if you feel you're too weak then pick either tough or a shield. Mobile is very useful to all monks and helps you get out of danger, so keep that in mind. The flavour of the rage=drunk buff is wonderful and I love it btw.

Edit: a friend of mine played this build a while back and he was the mvp of the group at barb 2/ monk 3

Quivering palm is neat, but imo not as powerful as people say. It's gonna set in at lvl 20 with this build, and if i don't start at that level i'll never reach it anyway. An ASI/feat at low/mid levels is worth more in my eyes, but as everything else that's just a debatable opinion.

Thanks for the stat lineup, i'm still not entirely sure about it where to put dex.
Wearing a shield sadly blocks me from using most monkery, and a medium AC is a bitter pill, even if i have the hp to spare.

I liked the "drunken master" movies and the idea of a martial artist whose hits get stronger and who's taking less damage in certain conditions (being drunk) just screamed monk-barb :)

[Quoxis]

Update: i built one. I rolled incredibly well (which lets you forget the need to have 13 in dex, wis and str), made my highest stats str and con, got double the hp other players have, and the combo of 1d8+2+Str+1d4+2+Str+1d4+2+Str (or 1d8+2d4+6+3Str) at second level (!) is pretty great. I'm sucking up damage, and aside from fireballs and similar stuff i'm pretty durable.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this awesome build.

[Maxilian]

I had just been looking at Monk/Barbarian to see if it was viable, and I decided it wasn't. But I didn't realize how viable a STR monk is. And with Barb first, for the AC, and making STR-based unarmed attacks, yeah, this would definitely work.

Reckless attack must be used with a STR attack, and can only be used on the first attack of the turn. Flurry of blows may be either.


When you use Reckless Attack, its used with all your attacks, but when you make you first attack is when you decide if you're going to go with Reckless attack this turn

[Potato_Priest]

@PotatoPriest thanks for the idea, but as JP said, i'll head for more ki points, if only to get more flurries. I'm not that convinced about stunning strike, but we'll see about that. This doesn't mean this build is superior to yours, it just fits the character idea better.

Yeah, I kinda forgot you were going for "Drunken Master" rather than "Drunk Guy who occasionally punches things"
Glad to hear it worked out!