The Great Wall trailer

[HMS Invincible]

Has anyone seen this yet? It's backed by some heavy hitters in china. Matt Damon learns about China by fighting a swarm of hungry locusts/demons.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwir1YymuIXRAhXB54MKHTMcBH4QyCkIHDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLV w9YdP1O-0&usg=AFQjCNGGKCFWNZ70G1EFstSoUDGj-Vs9aA&sig2=Xwu49KaJIFCQYgOL7Wgz_Q&bvm=bv.142059868,d.amc
Seems like a Redbox rental, but if it does well, there's gonna be a lot more of this stuff. Sure all the latest movies have scenes in China, but this could unleash a torrent of Asian stories to be rehashed for world wide consumption.

[Leewei]

I saw it, and have mixed feelings.

-Introducing more Chinese acting and directing to the U.S. market is a great thing.
-I like nearly everything Matt Damon has been in.
-The potential "white savior" trope makes me nervous. I'm really hoping this is averted.

[HandofShadows]

Ah, it's all a Chinese plan to <POLITICS DELETED>. :smallsmile:

Looks like a humanity vs monster movie. I imagine the special effects will be top notch and the acting very good. But I don't think the plot is going to be all that special.

[Olinser]

Looks like a 'meh' action film, nothing particularly noteworthy other than the fact it has a Chinese director and was filmed in China.

I read a plot summary (it was already released in China), and it just confirmed its a pretty standard and cliché plot with nothing new.

I might watch it on Netflix in a few months but definitely won't pay to see it in theatres.

[Razade]

-The potential "white savior" trope makes me nervous. I'm really hoping this is averted.

Is this really a concern? A Chinese movie directed by a Chinese director, starting a majority of Chinese actors and actresses and other people of color in a film all about fighting together to stop a giant threat. I really don't get it. Maybe I'm just too racist.

[Lemmy]

I thought it looked pretty interesting... Not particularly excited, though. Probably gonna wait for the DVD unless the reviews are really good.

[JoshL]

Is this really a concern? A Chinese movie directed by a Chinese director, starting a majority of Chinese actors and actresses and other people of color in a film all about fighting together to stop a giant threat. I really don't get it. Maybe I'm just too racist.

Before I saw the trailer, I was a little worried about that myself. I mean, a movie called "Great Wall" starring Matt Damon and Willem Dafoe? I realize you put a-list actors in your big budget movies so people go to see them, and hollywood's reputation with race relations is, well, less than stellar (see also the recent movie about the Stonewall Riots...which were in fact NOT led by cis white men). But seeing the trailer put fears of that aside, as well as the cast and director that you mentioned. It's just for the last year the only names I heard tied to this project were the two white guys. It doesn't look great, but fun, and I loved Last Witch Hunter and Seventh Son. If it's mindless fantasy action on par with that, which the trailer indicates, then I'll probably dig this. I agree with you that there seems to be nothing to worry about in this film, but I get where the concern comes from.

[HMS Invincible]

Before I saw the trailer, I was a little worried about that myself. I mean, a movie called "Great Wall" starring Matt Damon and Willem Dafoe? I realize you put a-list actors in your big budget movies so people go to see them, and hollywood's reputation with race relations is, well, less than stellar (see also the recent movie about the Stonewall Riots...which were in fact NOT led by cis white men). But seeing the trailer put fears of that aside, as well as the cast and director that you mentioned. It's just for the last year the only names I heard tied to this project were the two white guys. It doesn't look great, but fun, and I loved Last Witch Hunter and Seventh Son. If it's mindless fantasy action on par with that, which the trailer indicates, then I'll probably dig this. I agree with you that there seems to be nothing to worry about in this film, but I get where the concern comes from.

What the studio is hoping for is a Transformers-levels of success. I fear that it will be a Transformer's kind of movie. Cliched, lots of explosions, and dumb as hell.

[Razade]

Before I saw the trailer, I was a little worried about that myself. I mean, a movie called "Great Wall" starring Matt Damon and Willem Dafoe? I realize you put a-list actors in your big budget movies so people go to see them, and hollywood's reputation with race relations is, well, less than stellar (see also the recent movie about the Stonewall Riots...which were in fact NOT led by cis white men). But seeing the trailer put fears of that aside, as well as the cast and director that you mentioned. It's just for the last year the only names I heard tied to this project were the two white guys. It doesn't look great, but fun, and I loved Last Witch Hunter and Seventh Son. If it's mindless fantasy action on par with that, which the trailer indicates, then I'll probably dig this. I agree with you that there seems to be nothing to worry about in this film, but I get where the concern comes from.

I'd understand if this were a movie made in Hollywood. I really would. I'd still not care but I'd understand the frustration. This isn't a movie made through Hollywood. If people are decrying Chinese filmmakers for adding more white people or other people of color (a thing they generally don't do without any complaints despite China not being homogeneous either) then I don't know what people want. American movies have too many white people. Chinese movies which historically aren't inclusive of non-Asians and specifically non-Chinese people have too many white people. Should white people just stop acting for a while? Will that end this constant fussing?

[Kitten Champion]

I was interested in this until I saw the theatrical trailer. Mostly because it looks like the movie is wasting Damon's charms as an actor. Kind of like what Dragon Blade did with John Cusack and Adrian Brody where a high-budget Chinese production with people who are clearly skilled in working within the Chinese film industry behind it but lack the ability to write/direct in such a fashion that brings out the strengths of these assets they've acquired so they come off as generic and lifeless.

I hope I'm wrong. These productions are going to be more common as time marches on and I'd like to be encouraged about their future.

[darkrose50]

I immediately thought Legend of the Five Rings (like the RPG).

[digiman619]

I might be showing bias, but when I saw the trailer posits about the Wall "What were they trying to keep out?" I immediately went "The Mongols. They were trying to keep out the Mongols. Didn't work."

[HandofShadows]

Well, The Great Wall WAS built to keep out the Mongols and it did not in fact, work. So it's 100% correct to think that. The Wall also had the secondary purpose of keeping the Chinese peasants IN. :smalleek:

[Leewei]

Is this really a concern? A Chinese movie directed by a Chinese director, starting a majority of Chinese actors and actresses and other people of color in a film all about fighting together to stop a giant threat.
If the only one who can save the day is European, it's been done to death. My hope is that Damon's character becomes part of something bigger, and helps save the day, rather than the only one who can win the day for the Chinese supporting cast.

The ethnicity of those directing and starring in a movie matter, sure. However, what makes or breaks the cliché is whether the European is the lead, and what (s)he accomplishes relative to the other roles.

I really don't get it. Maybe I'm just too racist.
I like that you're trying to get it. The trick here is to imagine yourself as Asian, then look at the history of movies such as the Last Samurai, Black Rain, 47 Ronin, and so on. Try to think of counterexamples where an actor of Asian descent comes to white America, saves the town, wins the day, and shows those around him (or her) the meaning of heroism.

[BlueHerring]

What the studio is hoping for is a Transformers-levels of success. I fear that it will be a Transformer's kind of movie. Cliched, lots of explosions, and dumb as hell.

Yeah, I saw the trailer for this when I went to see Arrival (of all things to show a trailer for this), and my friend and I (who love watching bad movies) were unsure if it was going to be bad enough to qualify as hilarious, or just plain dumb and boring.

[digiman619]

I like that you're trying to get it. The trick here is to imagine yourself as Asian, then look at the history of movies such as the Last Samurai, Black Rain, 47 Ronin, and so on. Try to think of counterexamples where an actor of Asian descent comes to white America, saves the town, wins the day, and shows those around him (or her) the meaning of heroism.

The closest I can think of like that is the old Kung Fu show with David Carradine (I hope I'm spelling his name right...)

[GloatingSwine]

If the only one who can save the day is European, it's been done to death.

True. Though how marketable is Matt Damon in China? Could be that there's another perspective which is that someone thinks Chinese audiences will fork over their hard earned for a Chinese movie with certain import actors in.

[Leewei]

True. Though how marketable is Matt Damon in China? Could be that there's another perspective which is that someone thinks Chinese audiences will fork over their hard earned for a Chinese movie with certain import actors in.
True enough.

[Leewei]

The closest I can think of like that is the old Kung Fu show with David Carradine (I hope I'm spelling his name right...)

That show would be a wonderful example, if only the Chinese martial artist was portrayed by a Chinese actor.

[Razade]

If the only one who can save the day is European, it's been done to death. My hope is that Damon's character becomes part of something bigger, and helps save the day, rather than the only one who can win the day for the Chinese supporting cast.

The ethnicity of those directing and starring in a movie matter, sure. However, what makes or breaks the cliché is whether the European is the lead, and what (s)he accomplishes relative to the other roles.

So...Whitey just needs to take a break from being the protagonist or at least, a less important protagonist. In a foreign film from a region with a historically monolithic block against non-natives in their movies? Got it.


I like that you're trying to get it. The trick here is to imagine yourself as Asian, then look at the history of movies such as the Last Samurai, Black Rain, 47 Ronin, and so on.

If I were living in China and saw a film made in my home country (The Great Wall isn't an American movie) that for once didn't have a cast made up entirely of Asians? I'd be happy. Just as, an American, I am happy that our films aren't like they used to be and have People of Color (that's the PC term right?) and portrayals of homosexuals that don't make me roll my eyes. Diversity is a good thing.

You're looking at this the wrong way around. This isn't a Hollywood film (at all) trying to white wash the cast so that Jim Bob in rural Kentucky won't not see the movie cause "Ain't no white peple in't". This is a Chinese film (produced by a Chinese company, headed by a Chinese Director and outside of 3 actors a majority of Chinese people) trying to break further into the U.S market because China and the U.S are the two largest markets for movies. They surpass anyone else. Your attempts to make this a race issue is blatant and worrisome.


Try to think of counterexamples where an actor of Asian descent comes to white America, saves the town, wins the day, and shows those around him (or her) the meaning of heroism.

K. Can they be action films or will you tell me those don't qualify because they are part of the problem in that Asian people can only be Martial Artists in U.S produced movies? Asking before I give you a comprehensive list.

[Leewei]

So...Whitey just needs to take a break from being the protagonist or at least, a less important protagonist. In a foreign film from a region with a historically monolithic block against non-natives in their movies? Got it. If I were living in China and saw a film made in my home country (The Great Wall isn't an American movie) that for once didn't have a cast made up entirely of Asians? I'd be happy.
We're talking about a movie being released to a Western audience with the Hollywood cliches of whitewashing Asian roles or making Asians (and every other races) subordinate to a white protagonist in their own culture.


Just as, an American, I am happy that our films aren't like they used to be and have People of Color (that's the PC term right?) and portrayals of homosexuals that don't make me roll my eyes. Diversity is a good thing.
I'm all with you for diversity.


You're looking at this the wrong way around. This isn't a Hollywood film (at all) trying to white wash the cast so that Jim Bob in rural Kentucky won't not see the movie cause "Ain't no white peple in't". This is a Chinese film (produced by a Chinese company, headed by a Chinese Director and outside of 3 actors a majority of Chinese people) trying to break further into the U.S market because China and the U.S are the two largest markets for movies. They surpass anyone else. Your attempts to make this a race issue is blatant and worrisome.
Again, it's the audience that matters most in this equation.


K. Can they be action films or will you tell me those don't qualify because they are part of the problem in that Asian people can only be Martial Artists in U.S produced movies? Asking before I give you a comprehensive list.
I look forward to it! The only stipulations are that the Asian character arrives from outside a Western culture during the movie, is the clear primary protagonist, and saves the day for others native to that culture.

[The Glyphstone]

I look forward to it! The only stipulations are that the Asian character arrives from outside a Western culture during the movie, is the clear primary protagonist, and saves the day for others native to that culture.

Rush Hour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Hour_(1998_film)) qualifies for that. And as a bonus, his co-star is also non-white.

[Razade]

We're talking about a movie being released to a Western audience with the Hollywood cliches of whitewashing Asian roles or making Asians (and every other races) subordinate to a white protagonist in their own culture.

It's not White Washing. No one told the director to cast white people instead of Asians. The role is intended to be played by a European. They're not playing a Chinese character, they're playing a European character. The role was made for Damon by the director. He was cast with the character in mind. It's not White Washing.


I'm all with you for diversity.

Your argument doesn't indicate that you are. Quite the opposite actually. Perhaps you should say you're all for diversity as long as Diverse doesn't mean white people. Because that's what you're saying. If this were Idris Elba do you think we'd be having this conversation? Because I sure don't think we would. I don't think we would because you keep referring to the color of the person's skin. Not just that they're not Chinese. It's a white person in a movie set in China and that bugs you.


Again, it's the audience that matters most in this equation.

The....global...audience? Do you think we'd be having this same conversation if we were in China? You shouting that the Western Actor taking one of a Chinese Actor's roles away wouldn't look bad? Where as I'd still have the same counter point of "hey, it's diversity and that's a good thing". It's only a problem because it's a white dude and that's only a problem because it's being marketed here in the States. I think it says a lot more about you, that you're asking to remove diversity from a foreign film in a region known for its xenophobia, than it does about me.


I look forward to it! The only stipulations are that the Asian character arrives from outside a Western culture during the movie, is the clear primary protagonist, and saves the day for others native to that culture.

Well with insanely narrow specifications like that, how hard could it be?


Rush Hour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Hour_(1998_film)) qualifies for that. And as a bonus, his co-star is also non-white.

I was going to name that one but I wanted to make sure it didn't count because Jackie Chan is a martial artist which might invalidate it because "Asians can only be martial artists if they're the hero", a complaint I've heard numerous times.

[Knaight]

Looks like a 'meh' action film, nothing particularly noteworthy other than the fact it has a Chinese director and was filmed in China.

That also makes it safe to assume that it follows the techniques developed for action films in China. Safe assumptions include:

No shaky cam.
Dramatically less in the way of alternating close up face shots for every dialog scene.
No shaky cam.
Fight scenes that actually show the action.
No shaky cam.
The general absence of in-action cutaway shots.
No shaky cam.


In short, being made in China (and to some extent not being made by Hollywood) is a good sign for better cinematography.

[Lemmy]

That also makes it safe to assume that it follows the techniques developed for action films in China. Safe assumptions include:

No shaky cam.
Dramatically less in the way of alternating close up face shots for every dialog scene.
No shaky cam.
Fight scenes that actually show the action.
No shaky cam.
The general absence of in-action cutaway shots.
No shaky cam.


In short, being made in China (and to some extent not being made by Hollywood) is a good sign for better cinematography.
It's really sad that "non-shaky cam" is now considered a differential... :(

Tsc... Why can't Hollywood just drop this dumb fad already? :smallsigh:

[GolemsVoice]

I saw the trailer and I was really confused about what to think. It has that certain line between ridiculously awesome and just ridiculous (Super Great Wall! Super Demon Fighters! Jumping of the Wall into the Demons!) that the Transformers movies tried to walk, and failed, and I fear this will come off like this as well.

[Leewei]

Rush Hour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Hour_(1998_film)) qualifies for that. And as a bonus, his co-star is also non-white.

I think this one's a winner. It's an inversion of Black Rain in more than a few ways. Jackie Chan may well have some other films out there as well.

[Leewei]

It's not White Washing. No one told the director to cast white people instead of Asians. The role is intended to be played by a European. They're not playing a Chinese character, they're playing a European character. The role was made for Damon by the director. He was cast with the character in mind. It's not White Washing.
White washing is a different but related thing. The more general rule being followed is that Asians are subordinate to or replaced by whites.


Your argument doesn't indicate that you are. Quite the opposite actually. Perhaps you should say you're all for diversity as long as Diverse doesn't mean white people. Because that's what you're saying. If this were Idris Elba do you think we'd be having this conversation? Because I sure don't think we would. I don't think we would because you keep referring to the color of the person's skin. Not just that they're not Chinese. It's a white person in a movie set in China and that bugs you.
You're misstating my position. It isn't merely a white person in China; it's a white person who is the movie's greatest hero of the Chinese. Race does matter insofar as these cliches go, as you note. I'd need to do some heavy thinking about Idris Elba in that role. He's culturally Western, so it's likely he'd be viewed very similarly to Damon. An even trickier situation would be a culturally Western Asian returning to their ancestral culture and becoming a big hero, especially using Western thinking.


The....global...audience?
Nope. Asian-inclusive U.S. audience, where the film is being released.


Do you think we'd be having this same conversation if we were in China?
Also nope, and not very relevant.


You shouting that ...<remainder of rant snipped>
Whoa, there. This is a discussion on a message board. Chill, man. Nobody's raising voices, here. In fact, I'm not even advocating universal standards for movies. I'm just saying that it's hard for me to enjoy a movie that falls into an age-old pattern that has its roots in some very ugly history. You are taking issue with what I consider enjoyable!