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View Full Version : 5e Alternate Gestalt/Multiclass Criticism Desired



rudy
2016-12-21, 05:52 PM
Hello All,

I'm considering running a game for two players, and wanted something a bit more sophisticated than just plain "gestalt". I won't pretend that I don't enjoy designing systems. The core idea is having three base classes that you increase by "spending" experience on each. Details below. Criticism is gratefully accepted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Starting Out
You have point buy with 30 points to spend.

Pick three classes. You have one level in all of them, with all the features of each, with the following notes/exceptions:

You gain proficiency in a total of three saving throws from among those granted by your three classes.
You must satisfy the ability requirements for all three classes, as in standard multiclassing rules.
Subtract one from the number of skills granted by each class (Example: A Rogue/Cleric/Wizard, would get three skills from the Rogue list, and one skill each from the cleric and wizard lists.)
Gain the hit points / hit dice from the class with the highest hit dice.


Leveling Up
As you gain experience, instead of leveling all classes at once, instead you “spend” it according to the experience by level chart below. When you gain your first 200 experience points, you pick one of your three classes to increase to level 2, gaining the 2nd level abilities/features of that class. When you gain another 200 experience, you can either pick a second class to increase level 2, or save that 200 experience toward the 300 you would need to increase the first to level 3.

Further Notes
• Your total hit dice are equal to your highest class level. Which hit dice that you have, and thus your hit point total, are determined by starting with the class with the best hit dice, and then moving to lower hit dice classes.
For example, a Wizard 7 / Rogue 5 / Fighter 2 has 2d10 + 3d8 + 2d6 hit die, for a total of 7 hit dice. Their hit points would be 10 (for first level) + 6x1 + 3x5 + 2x4 + 7xCon bonus.

• Your proficiency bonus is based on your highest class level, not the sum of your class levels.
• You receive all ASIs by class level.
• Spellcasting levels are not added together to determine spell slots as in the normal multiclassing rules. Instead, determine spellcasting slots from each class separately. For ease of book-keeping, these slots may be used interchangeably for the spells from different classes. So, for example, a Wizard 3 / Cleric 2 / Rogue 2 would have seven 1st level slots, and two 2nd level slots, which could be used to cast any of his prepared wizard / cleric spells.

Revamped EXP Chart


Level
EXP
Level
EXP


1
0
11
39k


2
200
12
50k


3
500
13
65k


4
1000
14
82k


5
2500
15
101k


6
4500
16
122k


7
7500
17
150k


8
12k
18
181k


9
20k
19
214k


10
29k
20
250k

Morphic tide
2016-12-22, 09:39 AM
Interesting way to work it out. It makes dips a lot more usable, as you can have one of your classes be something you want to dip in. It end up as a lot more bookkeeping(looking at you, hit dice calculations), but it removes the ability to grab piles of different classes. (not that 5e gives much of a point to doing that, but still)

The casting stacking leads to some nasty issues with Warlocks and the fact that it allows all the spell slot restoring cheese, as limited as it is in 5e, to be applied to anyone's spell list.

Given the XP costs, keeping the ability score increases is pretty much the best way to go overall. Otherwise the XP costs would make existing campaigns nearly impossible to make proper use of this in.

The most important bit, IMO, is that you are actually upping the overall power of multiclassing. You start with three classes, and you can advance as a normal character with two extra level 1 classes. If badly needed, you can add levels up until you reach a badly needed ability. But the hit dice restriction makes it so that you don't inflate in power. Focusing on one class over the other two is the most optimal option, unless you badly need higher level stuff in other classes. Like the extra casting...

rudy
2016-12-22, 08:39 PM
Thank you so much for the detailed feedback!


Interesting way to work it out. It makes dips a lot more usable, as you can have one of your classes be something you want to dip in. It end up as a lot more bookkeeping(looking at you, hit dice calculations), but it removes the ability to grab piles of different classes. (not that 5e gives much of a point to doing that, but still)
Yeah; it's also far too powerful for a full sided party. I'd be leery about trying this with three players, let alone four or more. I really designed it with two players in mind. Bookkeeping I'm not too concerned about, as that's something I'm willing to keep track of on my end if players do not want to.


The casting stacking leads to some nasty issues with Warlocks and the fact that it allows all the spell slot restoring cheese, as limited as it is in 5e, to be applied to anyone's spell list.
True, but my thinking was that only the slots that came from the Warlock class would be restored on a short rest, even if they could be used for any spell list. In general a dual caster is going to be much less resource constrained regardless, so I'm not too concerned.


Given the XP costs, keeping the ability score increases is pretty much the best way to go overall. Otherwise the XP costs would make existing campaigns nearly impossible to make proper use of this in.
Not so much when you consider this is intended for a party of two. Each character should be getting twice as much experience as a party of four would, since there are fewer players to divide it among.


The most important bit, IMO, is that you are actually upping the overall power of multiclassing. You start with three classes, and you can advance as a normal character with two extra level 1 classes. If badly needed, you can add levels up until you reach a badly needed ability. But the hit dice restriction makes it so that you don't inflate in power. Focusing on one class over the other two is the most optimal option, unless you badly need higher level stuff in other classes. Like the extra casting...
Playing around with the system, the best bet generally seems to be to have one "primary" class, and two others that lag behind. But not *way* behind. Like 17/11/11, for example, at high levels. This is because the lower levels are so much cheaper in terms of xp.

I've actually ended up revamping the xp chart used, though. For several reasons, one of which is that I noticed the progression in the PHB is *weird* For example, 10 > 11 is more experience than 11 > 12 is. Now, that's not a big deal for normal play, but it screws with the balance in this system. I'm going to add the revamped chart to the first post, though that's not something I'm concerned about getting feedback on.