Base Class Tiers

[WhatThePhysics]

I've been working on a setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508014-The-Playgrounder-s-Guild) lately, and the topics of base class demographics and tiers have been stuck in my mind. While I'm familiar with JaronK's assessment (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0), it leaves out the Wilder, and I think it might not be the same for a world with different assumptions. To that end, here's what I've worked out:

Grade A: Cleric, Druid, Psion, Sorcerer, Wizard
Grade B: Bard, Psychic Warrior, Wilder
Grade C: Adept, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Soulknife
Grade D: Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior
Grade E: Commoner

Assuming the world is limited to the 3.5 System Reference Document (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm), and effective character levels are capped at 10, would you say that this is an accurate representation of the power ranges for base classes? If possible, please explain your answers.

EDIT: Adepts have been moved from Grade D to C. Bards have been added, and placed in Grade B.

EDIT 2: Monks have been added, and placed in Grade C.

EDIT 3: Psions have been moved from Grade B to A.

Edit 4: Sorcerers have been moved from Grade B to A.

[AnachroNinja]

I'd probably rank Adepts up there with fighters and such. You also skipped bard, not sure where you'd want to plug that without moving around more stuff.

[WhatThePhysics]

What reasoning do you use for ranking Adepts as Grade C? Their divine spellcasting, I assume?

Also, thanks for pointing out Bards. My first guess would be that they're Grade B, though I'd appreciate second opinions.

[AnachroNinja]

Yeah, the spellcasting, not terrible skill list(all the knowledge's at least), and getting a familiar is rather nice as well. I've actually played adept a couple times just to have a divine familiar because I like the idea.

As for bard, it's hard to judge. You're grade C is pretty general right now. There's a lot of wiggle room between bard and fighter. Granted though, going SRD only, there isn't as much variation between fighters and rogues and rangers. I'd still put fighters at the bottom of the group, but it's not a huge gulf IMO.

Oops, just saw you put bards in B, that's definitely more in line with my thoughts, they're probably right there towards the bottom of that group, in line with wilders

[Troacctid]

Gotta disagree. Adepts simply aren't good, and unlike fighters, barbarians, and monks, they don't even qualify for any prestige classes that can make them better. Maaaaybe you can do some stuff with animate dead, but you're sooo much worse at it than, like, basically every other class that gets it? You have to put them with the NPC classes because there's just no reason to play them!

Psions are Grade A. They're clearly a cut above everyone in Grade B, and it's not close. Psion vs. wizard is legit close, though.

Druids could be Grade S. They're bah-roken in ways even clerics and wizards can't match.

Here's my rough ranking of all the base classes:


Druid
Spontaneous Druid
Druid Variant
Aspect of Nature Druid
Cloistered Cleric
Druidic Avenger
Cleric Variant
Cleric
Spontaneous Cleric
Domain Wizard
Conjurer Variant, Enchanter Variant, Necromancer Variant (tie)
Wizard, Wizard Variant, Other Wizard Variant, Abjurer Variant, Diviner Variant, Evoker Variant, Illusionist Variant, Transmuter Variant (tie)
Generic Spellcaster
Psion
Sorcerer, Sorcerer Variant (tie)
Battle Sorcerer
Wilder
Bard Variant
Bardic Sage
Bard, Savage Bard, Divine Bard (tie)
Psychic Warrior
Ranger Variant
Generic Expert
Planar Ranger
Ranger, Urban Ranger (tie)
Rogue, Wilderness Rogue, Rogue Variant (tie)
Generic Warrior
Paladin, Paladin of Freedom, Paladin of Tyranny, Paladin of Slaughter, Paladin Variant (tie)
Totem Barbarian
Barbarian, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (tie)
Barbarian Variant
Thug, Thug Variant (tie)
Fighter, Fighter Variant (tie)
Fighting Style Monk
Monk
Monk Variant
Soulknife
Adept
Expert
Aristocrat, Warrior (tie)
Commoner

You left out monks BTW. (They're about as good as fighters.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

I would rate expert higher. It gives access to a wide variety of skills, including the ever sexy UMD.

Also druid is a bit tricky, early on it is doubtlessly incredibly strong and resilient to bad choices. Higher levels it's spell list weakens a bit, especially compared to wizard, but wild shape and the animal companion continue to grow and that cannot be simply ignored either.

[AnachroNinja]

Remember he's going SRD only, that limits and/or eliminates a lot of your default list.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Grade A: Cleric, Druid, Wizard
Grade B: Bard, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Sorcerer, Wilder
Grade C: Adept, Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Soulknife
Grade D: Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior
Grade E: Commoner.

Without going into ACFs, I would judge them thusly:

A: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psionic
B: Bard, Psychic Warrior, Sorcerer, Wilder
C: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
D: Adept, Soulknife, Expert
E: Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

[Flickerdart]

Why have two grades just for NPC classes? Bump Aristocrat and Warrior down to E, Soulknife, Paladin, Ranger, and Fighter down to D, and possibly Bard down to C (he just doesn't get that much love in Core).

[Troacctid]

I would rate expert higher. It gives access to a wide variety of skills, including the ever sexy UMD.

Also druid is a bit tricky, early on it is doubtlessly incredibly strong and resilient to bad choices. Higher levels it's spell list weakens a bit, especially compared to wizard, but wild shape and the animal companion continue to grow and that cannot be simply ignored either.
Druid isn't really all that tricky. It's basically the obvious best class at more or less every level.

Expert skills don't make up for being totally useless in combat (which is like more than half of the game).

[WhatThePhysics]

Gotta disagree. Adepts simply aren't good, and unlike fighters, barbarians, and monks, they don't even qualify for any prestige classes that can make them better. Maaaaybe you can do some stuff with animate dead, but you're sooo much worse at it than, like, basically every other class that gets it? You have to put them with the NPC classes because there's just no reason to play them!

Wouldn't the action economy allow an Adept and their skeleton/zombie army to equal or surpass their martial counterparts?


Psions are Grade A. They're clearly a cut above everyone in Grade B, and it's not close. Psion vs. wizard is legit close, though.

Could you explain your reasoning? The way I see it, Psions are comparable to Sorcerers, given their spontaneous casting-styled manifesting and limited power list.


Druids could be Grade S. They're bah-roken in ways even clerics and wizards can't match.

I can see how the Animal Companion and Wild Shape factor into that, but are you also considering the potential in magic item creation? Even then, Clerics can Plane Shift and Wizards can Teleport, while Druids just have Tree Stride.


Here's my rough ranking of all the base classes:


Druid
...
Commoner

I appreciate the comprehensive analysis. I'll have to address my issues with it later, though.


You left out monks BTW. (They're about as good as fighters.)

Aha, thanks for pointing out Monks. Not sure how I missed both them and Bards. :smalleek:

I would rate expert higher. It gives access to a wide variety of skills, including the ever sexy UMD.

Also druid is a bit tricky, early on it is doubtlessly incredibly strong and resilient to bad choices. Higher levels it's spell list weakens a bit, especially compared to wizard, but wild shape and the animal companion continue to grow and that cannot be simply ignored either.

Due to the nature of the Grade system, I'm not sure if Expert is as effective a class as Rogue. As for Druids, I addressed that in the hider above.


Without going into ACFs, I would judge them thusly:

A: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psionic
B: Bard, Psychic Warrior, Sorcerer, Wilder
C: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
D: Adept, Soulknife, Expert
E: Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

By ACF, are you referring to content beyond the SRD, or the Variant Classes from Unearthed Arcana?


Why have two grades just for NPC classes? Bump Aristocrat and Warrior down to E, Soulknife, Paladin, Ranger, and Fighter down to D, and possibly Bard down to C (he just doesn't get that much love in Core).

I'm not sure if Aristocrat is that terrible compared to Expert. Aristocrats are basically Experts with all martial weapons, armors, and shields, 2 extra hit points per level, and 2 less skill points per level (and 8 less at 1st).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Expert has UMD on its list. That is a pretty big game changer. Also in terms of weapon and armor proficiency expert had enough to get by. Aristocrats extra goodies do not make up for a weakened skill list and fewer skill points.

What I meant was things beyond the SRD. Why I said ACFS I have no idea beyond this week has been rough.

[WhatThePhysics]

Expert has UMD on its list. That is a pretty big game changer. Also in terms of weapon and armor proficiency expert had enough to get by. Aristocrats extra goodies do not make up for a weakened skill list and fewer skill points.

Fair point regarding UMD. However, Aristocrats have 27 class skills, while Experts can only pick 10 class skills. Generally speaking, an Expert wouldn't be able to emulate an Aristocrat with high Intelligence and all their feats dumped into Open Minded.


What I meant was things beyond the SRD. Why I said ACFS I have no idea beyond this week has been rough.

No worries. :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

Could you explain your reasoning? The way I see it, Psions are comparable to Sorcerers, given their spontaneous casting-styled manifesting and limited power list.
Sorcerers are weaker than wizards because they have delayed spellcasting, no bonus feats, and a weaker casting stat. Psions don't have those problems, so they're actually pretty close to wizards. They're definitely weaker, but not by a lot.

I mean, you could draw the line on either side, I guess, but it makes more sense to me to try and line it up better with the side that they're closer to in power level.


Wouldn't the action economy allow an Adept and their skeleton/zombie army to equal or surpass their martial counterparts?
Eh. You don't really have a lot of ways to use your own actions to impact combat, thanks to how tightly limited your resources are. So all the skeletons really do is make up for how much your actual character sucks.

Maybe you're better than the soulknife, I guess. But let's be honest, that says more about the soulknife than the adept.


Even then, Clerics can Plane Shift and Wizards can Teleport, while Druids just have Tree Stride.
That's not a big enough difference to make up for having vastly better class features than...basically everyone else in the game? Especially considering that those spells only come into play at the very end of the campaign.


I'm not sure if Aristocrat is that terrible compared to Expert. Aristocrats are basically Experts with all martial weapons, armors, and shields, 2 extra hit points per level, and 2 less skill points per level (and 8 less at 1st).
Honestly, like, whatever, right? They're NPC classes. Nobody is gonna play them. *shrug*

[WhatThePhysics]

Sorcerers are weaker than wizards because they have delayed spellcasting, no bonus feats, and a weaker casting stat. Psions don't have those problems, so they're actually pretty close to wizards. They're definitely weaker, but not by a lot.

I mean, you could draw the line on either side, I guess, but it makes more sense to me to try and line it up better with the side that they're closer to in power level.

But Wizards can theoretically learn every spell on their list, while Psions can't learn every power on their lists.


Eh. You don't really have a lot of ways to use your own actions to impact combat, thanks to how tightly limited your resources are. So all the skeletons really do is make up for how much your actual character sucks.

Maybe you're better than the soulknife, I guess. But let's be honest, that says more about the soulknife than the adept.

Given Adepts can craft magic items and control over a handful of skeletons and zombies, I'm inclined to say those characters don't suck that bad.


That's not a big enough difference to make up for having vastly better class features than...basically everyone else in the game? Especially considering that those spells only come into play at the very end of the campaign.

Clerics have True Seeing, Spell Resistance, and Symbol of Sleep. Wizards have Baleful Polymorph, Hold Monster, and Wall of Force. Those abilities are significant when compared to the Druid spell list.

As for Plane Shift or Teleport only being used near a campaign's end, the purpose of this thread is to grade classes according to their capacity for utterly turning a setting inside out. The lower a class's grade, the more common its higher level members are, and the more likely it is they'll affect the nuances of the setting.

[Bad Wolf]

Without going into ACFs, I would judge them thusly:

A: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psionic
B: Bard, Psychic Warrior, Sorcerer, Wilder
C: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
D: Adept, Soulknife, Expert
E: Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

A sorcerer is still a full caster. I'd rate them more like B.5.

[Troacctid]

But Wizards can theoretically learn every spell on their list, while Psions can't learn every power on their lists.
That's balanced by psions having high-granularity augmentable spontaneous casting while wizards have to prepare their spells ahead of time. The wizard method is more powerful overall, but at least there are meaningful tradeoffs.


Clerics have True Seeing, Spell Resistance, and Symbol of Sleep. Wizards have Baleful Polymorph, Hold Monster, and Wall of Force. Those abilities are significant when compared to the Druid spell list.
Half those spells aren't even worth preparing, and another third of them are actually on the druid list.

Wall of force is fine, but it's not so much better than wall of stone that it would make a wizard surpass a druid.


As for Plane Shift or Teleport only being used near a campaign's end, the purpose of this thread is to grade classes according to their capacity for utterly turning a setting inside out. The lower a class's grade, the more common its higher level members are, and the more likely it is they'll affect the nuances of the setting.
Well in that case why are we even talking about psions, right? Wouldn't they just be an obvious Grade A?


Given Adepts can craft magic items and control over a handful of skeletons and zombies, I'm inclined to say those characters don't suck that bad.
I'll certainly grant that it looks a looot better in the context of an NPC who isn't going to be adventuring all day long. I was only considering how it plays in the hands of a PC.

[Bad Wolf]

But Wizards can theoretically learn every spell on their list, while Psions can't learn every power on their lists.

Actually they can, through Psychic Chirurgery.

[WhatThePhysics]

That's balanced by psions having high-granularity augmentable spontaneous casting while wizards have to prepare their spells ahead of time. The wizard method is more powerful overall, but at least there are meaningful tradeoffs.

That's a convincing argument. Thank you for sharing.


Half those spells aren't even worth preparing, and another third of them are actually on the druid list.

True Seeing requires a level 13 Druid, which is unavailable in this scenario. You're correct about Baleful Polymorph, so I'll raise Wizards having Mage's Private Sanctum.


Wall of force is fine, but it's not so much better than wall of stone that it would make a wizard surpass a druid.

Wall of Stone requires a level 11 Druid, which is unavailable in this scenario. Also, Wizards can cast Wall of Stone at level 9.


Well in that case why are we even talking about psions, right? Wouldn't they just be an obvious Grade A?

Fair point.


I'll certainly grant that it looks a looot better in the context of an NPC who isn't going to be adventuring all day long. I was only considering how it plays in the hands of a PC.

Fair enough.


Actually they can, through Psychic Chirurgery.

Psychic Chirurgery requires a level 17 Telepath, which is unavailable in this scenario.

[stanprollyright]

which is unavailable in this scenario.

Did I miss the rules of this scenario? Are you capping your analysis at 10th without telling anyone?

[Bad Wolf]

Did I miss the rules of this scenario? Are you capping your analysis at 10th without telling anyone?

First post, actually.

[stanprollyright]

First post, actually.

Oh, my bad. Carry on.

[ben-zayb]

As for Plane Shift or Teleport only being used near a campaign's end, the purpose of this thread is to grade classes according to their capacity for utterly turning a setting inside out.To be fair, Druid has Stormwalk and Planar Navigation. Not as early to access to Wizard's, but that's how spell list specialties go anyway.

Wall of Stone requires a level 11 Druid, which is unavailable in this scenario. Also, Wizards can cast Wall of Stone at level 9.Coral Growth is available by level 5. Oh, it's actually situationally almost always better at most levels, since it makes 5ft cube of content, instead of a 5ft square sheet of varying thickness.

[WhatThePhysics]

Right, but this scenario is limited to the 3.5 SRD. :smallsmile:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Druid's still have Control Winds at 5th level, which can easily mess up encounters early on. Even on the SRD Druid's shine around 4th and 5th. It is not really until 15+ level that you see druid fall behind clerics and druids in their spell lists. Remember, druid has wild shape and animal companion at 10th level and those are still highly relevant. Weaknesses in their spell list are balanced by those advantages readily.

[eggynack]

Gotta disagree. Adepts simply aren't good, and unlike fighters, barbarians, and monks, they don't even qualify for any prestige classes that can make them better. Maaaaybe you can do some stuff with animate dead, but you're sooo much worse at it than, like, basically every other class that gets it? You have to put them with the NPC classes because there's just no reason to play them!
I disagree back. The adept list is sweet. Yes, you get it in crappy fashion, but every spell level has some pretty strong entries. Sleep, protection from X and obscuring mist at first, along with comprehend languages for a bit of side utility, invisibility, mirror image, maybe scorching ray, and definitely web at second, animate dead and occasionally tongues at third, and then if you go past this level cap, minor creation, polymorph, and restoration at fourth, and then just about everything you get at fifth. Yes, you're worse than anything that casts at bard level or better, but that in itself doesn't seem like a relevant criteria here. The question is whether the utility provided by these really strong spells granted at a slow rate is enough to outstrip fighters and monks in utility and power level, and I think they are.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd have to put Sorcerers in the top tier. While marginally below the other entries there, they're still way ahead of things like an SRD-only Bard (which is... kind of mediocre, honestly) or a Psychic Warrior.

[Troacctid]

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it more, does it really make sense for the rarity of classes to be directly correlated with their power? I mean, okay, NPC classes should probably be more common than PC classes. But doesn't it seem weird for soulknives to be more common than fighters (for example)?

[WhatThePhysics]

I'd have to put Sorcerers in the top tier. While marginally below the other entries there, they're still way ahead of things like an SRD-only Bard (which is... kind of mediocre, honestly) or a Psychic Warrior.

Could you explain your reasoning for this?


Actually, now that I'm thinking about it more, does it really make sense for the rarity of classes to be directly correlated with their power? I mean, okay, NPC classes should probably be more common than PC classes. But doesn't it seem weird for soulknives to be more common than fighters (for example)?

For the setting, it does. As it stands, Adepts being in Grade C gives them a population of a million or so, making magic items with their 0th and 1st level spells quite common. If this doesn't change, the setting will have many militaries with considerable environmental resistance, healing, and maintenance capabilities.

Currently, Soulknives and Fighters are both in Grade C.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Could you explain your reasoning for this?
Bardic Music isn't very good in core-- it takes a standard action to kick off, and provides a laughably small bonus. There aren't any options to turn it on faster, power it up, or spend it on more productive things. It's mostly a nonstarter, so you're left with spellcasting. It's a fine list, but it doesn't really have any unique tricks-- you're pretty much doing the same things a Wizard or Sorcerer is, only a few levels later. More skills and BAB doesn't measure up to more casting power.

The Psychic Warrior is quite good, but it's playing a different game. It's a fighter-with-magic, with a few utility tricks possibly thrown in. It's really good at doing that, but... to be honest, so is the Battle Sorcerer, who has the same HD and BAB and more broken spells available.

[Troacctid]

Bardic Music isn't very good in core-- it takes a standard action to kick off, and provides a laughably small bonus. There aren't any options to turn it on faster, power it up, or spend it on more productive things. It's mostly a nonstarter, so you're left with spellcasting.
That's why the variant bard is so much better. A full-strength animal companion vs. a minor bonus to hit and damage as a standard action? Give me the animal companion any day of the week. Even Thursday.

[WhatThePhysics]

Bardic Music isn't very good in core-- it takes a standard action to kick off, and provides a laughably small bonus. There aren't any options to turn it on faster, power it up, or spend it on more productive things. It's mostly a nonstarter, so you're left with spellcasting. It's a fine list, but it doesn't really have any unique tricks-- you're pretty much doing the same things a Wizard or Sorcerer is, only a few levels later. More skills and BAB doesn't measure up to more casting power.

The Psychic Warrior is quite good, but it's playing a different game. It's a fighter-with-magic, with a few utility tricks possibly thrown in. It's really good at doing that, but... to be honest, so is the Battle Sorcerer, who has the same HD and BAB and more broken spells available.

Fair point. Your analysis is appreciated.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's why the variant bard is so much better. A full-strength animal companion vs. a minor bonus to hit and damage as a standard action? Give me the animal companion any day of the week. Even Thursday.
True-- an Animal Companion Savage Bard is your best bet in SRD-only, and makes for a pretty strong character. Not as good as a full caster, but it definitely helps.


Fair point. Your analysis is appreciated.
No problem. Glad it helped!

[Telok]

The best thing about Inspire Courage, for NPCs, is the unlimited range. Or rather that the range of the effect is how far away that you can hear it. With really loud instruments it's great for armies of lower level people.

But for a typical adventuring group it's pretty crap without serious splat support.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Here is the definitive work (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8925.0), for all those readers who are sick of people saying "I've included all the base classes" but then they haven't (and didn't even define the set of material they are working with).