Gloves of Coin Shot... cost and mechanics?

[gr8artist]

I'm thinking of having a town in which weapons are outlawed, which then creates a black market for covert weapons. The players would likely begin investigating a string of strange deaths; deep puncture wounds without the remnants of a projectile. The wounds and holes in armor/clothing would be thin and wide, like a dagger's wound, but they'd all have been killed from a distance. The victims were killed by coins, coins thrown with enough force to pierce platemail.
An assassin is killing people with the effects of Coin Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/coin-shot). He has gloves enchanted with the spell, and I want him to be able to use them quickly and as often per day as possible. Optimally, the gloves would passively enchant any coins he held, but I'd also be ok with a simple mechanic (ie a free action like snapping his fingers) to enchant the next coin he picked up.

Suggestions on cost, mechanics, etc? Drafts for various levels / costs would also be handy (1st, 5th, and 10th).

[Jack_Simth]

Well, the general solution - as you're the DM, if you're OK with dropping such a weapon into your players' hands after the fight is over - is to make it a use-activated (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Use-Activated) item: The glove enchants the coin as it is thrown from the gloved hand (you'll need two for two-weapon fighting, although as a slotted item it'll need a special note for the left glove to not interfere with the right, and vice-versa). It'd have a nominal cost of 2,000 (at caster level 1: "Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp" per the Estimation table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece-Values)), but could go as high as 40,000 (CL 20 for the +10 damage). That pricing is for "as many as you feed it coins". Some per-day limit would fit the use (but not your immediate desire) - if it can only do three coins a day (effectively one casting), then it'd likely be worth 1/5th of that (400 gp for the caster level 1 version, 8000 gp at caster level 20) and be much safer to put into the hands of players.

As the DM, though, it's really all up to you: How much of a boost do you want to give the party rogue? Do keep in mind, turning something into a touch attack is very similar to an auto-hit after just a few levels.

[Geddy2112]

The spell does not have a verbal component, so it would be fairly easy to have "snapping your fingers" be casting the spell. He could either know the spell as an SLA, or from his class, or have it on a wand and have a good enough UMD that unless he botches it goes off. Not a free action, but it prevents the players from getting it.

Another option would be to use a permanancy spell. The spell could be permanant on him and any coins he touches, or a glove or coinpurse if you want the players to be able to have it. I know the spell RAW only targets up to three coins, but you are the DM

[Barstro]

0) Does this fall into the True Strike Paradox?
While it can turn platinum coins from almost nothing into a 1d10 of damage (far outside the realm of other level-1 spells), that requires the additional cost of a pp per ammo. If you rule that the coin is destroyed upon impact (which I think is the rule for ammo), then you are fine. If you rule that the coin survives, then this spell is too overpowered to allow for standard construction rules. I suppose you could just rule that the spell keeps the coins intact but only does 1d4 damage.

Assuming we can use construction rules
1) Spell Effect; Use-activated or continuous (spell level x caster level x 2,000) = 1*1*2k=2k
2) Spell has a duration of 10 minutes, so multiply cost by 1.5 = 3,000*
*The actual rule is to do that if the spell is 10 minutes/level

The formula for higher levels is just as simple;
Level 5) 1*5*2,000*1.5 = 15,000; cp 1d4+2, pp 1d10+2
Level 10) 1*10*2,000*1.5 = 30,000; cp 1d4+5, pp 1d10+5

Hardly seems like an overpowered item for the cost.

[Jay R]

This is way too powerful an item for the party to wind up with.

I would make it a 50-use item like a wand or a staff. When the party finally gets it, it should have less than a half-dozen charges left.

[Vogie]

Coin shot only enchants three coins at a time, and then they have to be thrown... so I could see you creating a type of bracer/wrist sheath to hold three coins, a command word to enchant the three, and the bracer has a way for them to fall into the assassin's hand to be thrown.


0) If you rule that the coin is destroyed upon impact (which I think is the rule for ammo), then you are fine. If you rule that the coin survives, then this spell is too overpowered to allow for standard construction rules. I suppose you could just rule that the spell keeps the coins intact but only does 1d4 damage.

I believe RAW would be in all cases the coins are destroyed, but if you wanted to create a manner for that player to reclaim some them I wouldn't be against it... since the platinum coin wouldn't fall under abundant ammunition by design (and is more expensive than most ammunition), I could see the DM doing something like

allowing thrown misses to be intact, or
at the end of combat, you can roll to see if you can recover any of the non-crit coins that were thrown, or
you find a ancient platinum coin somehow enchanted with Returning property (which would cut your ammo costs by a third)

[Fizban]

This is a cool spell, if only it weren't tied in with Pathfinder's gun rules, otherwise it'd be a fairly cheap novelty item that'd work fine around 2,000gp and just let you throw coins as attacks.

Making all your attacks as touch attacks is ridiculously powerful, but Pathfinder guns do that automatically. Check how throwing damage optimization compares to gun damage optimization to see if the coins are better or worse on a shot for shot basis for starters. The coins are destroyed and their cost is probably equal to or greater than that of gunpowder for a shot. Then you have to take into account the miniaturization/stealth and complete avoidance of all the misfire rules guns are supposed to deal with, as well as reloading. The cost will be the price of two handguns+ magical novelty/convenience/stealth+ effective feats/class abilities to remove misfires and free action reload. Probably not less than 10,000gp at the most generous, at least by 3.5 standards (I don't know pathfinder WBL or items). You can guess that I wouldn't allow it at all, but I don't use pathfinder guns or cheap and easy touch attack conversions either.

You'd have a much easier time going with a wand.

[John Longarrow]

0) Does this fall into the True Strike Paradox?
While it can turn platinum coins from almost nothing into a 1d10 of damage (far outside the realm of other level-1 spells), that requires the additional cost of a pp per ammo. If you rule that the coin is destroyed upon impact (which I think is the rule for ammo), then you are fine. If you rule that the coin survives, then this spell is too overpowered to allow for standard construction rules. I suppose you could just rule that the spell keeps the coins intact but only does 1d4 damage.

Per the spell "Regardless of whether a transmuted coin hits or misses the target, it is destroyed after the attack."

[Barstro]

This is way too powerful an item for the party to wind up with.

I would make it a 50-use item like a wand or a staff. When the party finally gets it, it should have less than a half-dozen charges left.

How is it powerful? As a level-1 item, it's barely doing anything unless the character is throwing money away. I think it's worth even less at levels higher than 1. It seems to me that the party has much more cost effective options than this interesting item.

EDIT: I cannot come up with a single character I have made that would have ever used this if he found it. Already owned weapons or spells were always better.


Per the spell "Regardless of whether a transmuted coin hits or misses the target, it is destroyed after the attack."
Huh. I missed that each time I read it. Thank you.

[gr8artist]

Thank you everyone for the help and suggestions. I see we got a lot of different opinions, which is always (never?) a good sign.
I'm a little out of practice in the item creation mechanics, and this was a nice refresher. I think I can easily enough scale the item to fit a variety of levels, using the information provided.
The coins should deal enough damage to logistically kill a commoner or aristocrat with 3 or less levels in a single hit. Assuming an average Constitution of +0, and 3 levels of Aristocrat HD (1d8's), the victim will probably have... 15 HP? Assuming that the (well paid) assassin is throwing Platinum coins for maximum effect, he'd probably want the glove at CL 20 (+10 damage). That's a bit high, but if I give him Rogue levels (say, 3 levels for Sneak Attack +2d6) he can reliably kill someone with a CL 10 glove (1d10 + 2d6 + 5 = 8-27 dmg (avg 17)).
Players will probably be level 5 or so at the lowest, so I think giving the glove 1 use per day (3 attacks) is a pretty safe bet.
By my calculations it would be a 4,000 gp item. It limits the assassin's options and threat level, but keeps the item from being overpowered when the players get it.

[John Longarrow]

Wouldn't need to be CL 10.

Sneak attacking for 1D10 + 2d6 sneak + 1 should work if he's got something like Rapid Shot for an extra attack.

[Fizban]

With a 1/day limit you can compare it to other items that let you subsitute touch attacks. It's still pretty cheap compared to them in 3.5, Heartseeker Amulet is 3,000 for one attack per day in melee only at the cheapest. As an ability which modifies attacks and is useful forever it can easily be worth more than 1/day formula price, you could still throw +50% modifier on there so discourage buying too many copies later. I find that people don't really balk if something costs 8,000, but 12,000 will give some pause- so at 4k I'd expect people to buy a second pair but at 6k I think they'd be more likely to settle for one.

The increased caster level actually works as a stealth restriction. While at first the +5 damage seems huge, it actually costs the same amount as having 10 pairs of the cl 1 version (if you allowed it at exact formula price). This is done a couple times in the Magic Item Compendium, low level effects that shouldn't actually be cheap are used at a higher caster level to drive up the price and then given a discount down to wherever the writer wants them to actually be. I'm still advocating a price increase after the formula, but a total price of 6k and a reminder that you're avoiding both gun and spellcasting requirements should make the point.

[John Longarrow]

For price, I think a LOT of adventurers would balk at how much the ammo really costs. If your using copper or silver they won't blink an eye. Once its 1gp per shot (or 10) they start really thinking "Is it worth it?" a lot more.

[Fizban]

The main benefit is the touch attack, and with extra cl a bit of bonus damage. A silver piece is the price of a crossbow bolt and deals 1d6 base, with a touch attack. A platinum piece is 10gp, d10 base, and counts as adamantine, even though adamantine ammunition is 60gp per shot in pathfinder, and from I understand they ignore all damage reduction.

[grarrrg]

Could just revamp the Deadly Dealer feat and make it apply to coins instead of cards.
Then there's no item for the players to (ab)use.

[Vogie]

I cannot come up with a single character I have made that would have ever used this if he found it. Already owned weapons or spells were always better.


The whole schtick is it is something to be used solely as a weapon by a non-spell caster in an area where weapons are not allowed. If your characters haven't run into that specifically, it would make sense, as it's against the murderhobo mindset of the average D&D game.

Personally I would dip into Ancestor Oracle to have a weapon that can appear and disappear when needed.

[John Longarrow]

OP,

When you say that weapons are outlawed, how are you planning on dealing with tools that can also be used as weapons? A hand axe is a very common tool for wood working. Many pole arms are derived from agricultural tools. Sai are a type of farming tool used much like a pitch fork. Many cooking and general purpose knives work just as well as a dagger.

I'm not sure if the assassin would really need an exotic item if they could just carry a couple hand axes and use them as thrown weapons.

[Jack_Simth]

I cannot come up with a single character I have made that would have ever used this if he found it. Already owned weapons or spells were always better.Attack action ranged touch attacks that are drawn as ammo are pretty useful for something like a Rogue. Whether unlimited, per-day, or charged, it's going to be loved by a character with sneak attack until it's gone. Regular AC on most opponents scales moderately well; touch AC, not so much. In many cases, switching from a regular attack to a touch attack puts attacks from the "might succeed" category to a "don't roll a 1" category. Dragons are exemplars of that - a 'default' Great Wyrm Silver Dragon has an AC of 41, and a touch AC of 2. Someone with a +21 attack roll on the primary attack goes from "Needs a 20" to "avoid nat-1's" with the added bonus of "iterative attacks work well too".

[Jay R]

How is it powerful? As a level-1 item, it's barely doing anything unless the character is throwing money away. I think it's worth even less at levels higher than 1. It seems to me that the party has much more cost effective options than this interesting item.

EDIT: I cannot come up with a single character I have made that would have ever used this if he found it. Already owned weapons or spells were always better.

You may be right. But the initial description made it sound like a highly effective and basically untraceable assassin's weapon.

[gr8artist]

OP,

When you say that weapons are outlawed, how are you planning on dealing with tools that can also be used as weapons? A hand axe is a very common tool for wood working. Many pole arms are derived from agricultural tools. Sai are a type of farming tool used much like a pitch fork. Many cooking and general purpose knives work just as well as a dagger.

I'm not sure if the assassin would really need an exotic item if they could just carry a couple hand axes and use them as thrown weapons.
You raise an excellent point. I've never done a "no weapons" zone before, but here's what I'm thinking ~

Visitors are searched at the city gates; weapons are confiscated. Tools that could easily be used as weapons are confiscated UNLESS the visitor can provide documentation or proof that the tool is essential to their trade. In that case, the weapons would be placed into a locked trunk, transported to the visitor's destination, and then may be unlocked by a guard when the tools are to be used.
Law enforcement would include spellcasters or UMD experts capable of identifying the spells stored in wands, staves, and scrolls. Offensive spells are restricted as if they were weapons.
Spellbooks would be searched as well, but obviously the innate and divine casters (and determined wizards) could get around these limitations.
Tools would be restricted to particular locations. When leaving an area where dangerous tools are allowed, workers would be frisked.
There'd obviously be a lot of workarounds, but I'm ok with that. The laws and restrictions are an extra hassle or problem for would-be assassins.
The punishment for being caught with a weapon or an unsecured dangerous tool, or with a magical effect deemed potentially life-threatening, would probably be a hefty fine and some problematic jail time.
Covert weapons would almost become the norm; innocuous things that can serve a deadly purpose in a pinch.
The king/mayor/ruler of the city would be paranoid about assassination attempts (not sure why yet) and it's possible that the players could undergo a quest or task to show him how unfounded his fears actually are, or at least how ineffective his rules might be.
It's likely that the ruler distrusts magic, possibly having his entire residence covered in an Antimagic Field. He does not go out and interact with people, and handles all business in the inner rooms of his residence. Because of his disconnect, it's possible that criminal organizations have infiltrated his guards, and are deterring anyone who voices legitimate complaints.
Basically, his paranoia is exploited by the criminals who then effectively run the city by determining which issues he is or is not aware of. Their only concern, then, is getting around his anti-weapon restrictions.

It will be an overall social and investigation themed campaign, so there's a good chance I'll have at least one rogue. If that rogue is specializing in DPS, and a close-range touch attack with Sneak Attack benefits would be problematic, it's likely that their quest will require turning over the unidentified murder weapon (the Glove) over to the authorities to claim their reward. Then the rogue will need to convince the other players that the GoCS is worth more than the bounty they'd earn for completing the quest.

Their quest would involve tracking and investigating black-market arms dealers, which would reveal characters with things like the Deadly Dealer feat (thanks for the reminder) and other magical items that function as weapons. Disguised wands, innocuous poisons, weapons that can be shrunk on command, etc.
Finding A WAY to kill people in this setting isn't particularly difficult; finding the PARTICULAR way that the villain is killing people would be.
If they start getting close, I'll probably have the assassin botch an attack against them, possibly during a chase or pursuit. A flash of metallic color (copper, silver, or gold) and a metallic ping upon contact with the wall, erupting immediately into a flare of metallic fire. If they picked up the hint, they might consider coins as a possible weapon. If they're hit, the wound would be deep and flat. Again, no evidence left in the wound.

[John Longarrow]

You realize your talking about a LE police state. Red Fel could fill you in on a lot of the repercussions of having a place like this. It means that little old lady with a cane is breaking the law by walking around with a club. The chef has to have police in his kitchen keeping the servants from moving around knives. No one would be allow more than chopsticks to eat with and cooking at home would effectively be illegal.

No one could work from their residence (norm from antiquity through the industrial revolution) and no one could cook at home. May as well make having a home illegal (after all too many things could be easily converted to weapons) so everyone would be in effect in jail.

Toss in what they would do if they found out you were a warlock... Or proficient with unarmed strike.

[gr8artist]

Hmm... I suppose loosening the restrictions would help, or perhaps having the restrictions apply primarily to newcomers.

Outlawed: Any object designed as a weapon (sword, battleaxe, spiked chain), any magical item that casts offensive spells or possesses dangerous powers. Penalties include jail time, a hefty fine, and confiscation of goods.

Problematic: Any dangerous object not designed as a weapon (skinning knife, hand axe), any magical or uncommon substance that could have life-threatening effects if misused (poisonous plants, acids). Penalties MAY include fines and confiscation of goods.

All travelers are searched at the gate, under an Antimagic Field.
"Suspicious" individuals are searched at the guards' discretion.
Otherwise people are free to move around through most of the city.
The ruler's keep would be a far more strict location, with everyone searched upon entry and then again upon entry to the same room as the ruler.
The keep (or at least the room where people might meet the ruler) is covered in an Antimagic Field.

[Coidzor]

Well, I suppose there's loading up a pair of gloves with True Creation and Coin Shot and praying you have a merciful GM.

8 * 15 * 2000 + 5000(100*50 gp material component) + 1.5 * 1 * 20 * 2000 = 305,000 gp, further modified by how they'd adjudicate the cost of the True Creation component for making only coins and only ones that have Coin Shot cast on them so they're destroyed and then also the truncation of the creation time.

Unless Major Creation's coins that can't be used as spell components would work with Coin Shot, I suppose that would lower the theoretical starting point for cost estimation to in the neighbourhood of 150,000 gp.

[Fizban]

Regarding non-obvious weapons: you know that's where monk weapons come from, right? People fighting back against police states in real life using farm tools. You're also taking some serious liberties with the prevalence of magic if you're just putting permanent antimagic fields all over the place. A Braizer of Revealing Magic (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook) and a custom Braizer of Revealing Weapons (based on Detect Weaponry from Cityscape) is more than enough for the town gate, which the assassin can defeat by having the cash for a hidden lead-lined pocket to hide his shuriken or magic glove in.