Poor Man's Warlord

[stanprollyright]

So we're about to play Curse of the Crimson Throne Anniversary Edition. Current party: Dwarven Hunter with a musket and a bear, Catfolk Archaelogist Bard (ranged), half-orc Paladin (melee), human Samurai (likely waste of space). And me. The 5th wheel. Didn't want to be a caster, but wanted something with tier 3 versatility. Warlord looks great! However, PoW was disallowed due to lack of GM familiarity; variant multiclassing was similarly met with a "huh?" Fighter it is, I guess.

So here's my Poor Man's Warlord. Feedback appreciated.

half elf lore warden/martial master fighter

1 Unchained Rogue 1: EWP elven curveblade, weapon finesse, dodge
2 Fighter 1: power attack
3 combat expertise, weapon focus, quick draw
4 maneuver mastery
5 point blank shot, iron will
6 martial flexibility
7 combat reflexes, weapon spec
8 know thy enemy
9 Rogue 2: additional traits, evasion, rogue talent(improved unarmed?)
10 Rogue 3: finesse training
11 Fighter 8: greater weapon focus, critical focus
12
13 bleeding critical, greater weapon spec
14 hair's breadth
15 hammer the gap, critical versatility
16
17 swift lore, critical mastery
18
19 martial versatility, martial mastery
20

elite array
str 14
dex 15(17)
con 12
int 13
wis 8
cha 10

traits: indomitable faith, campaign trait. additional traits: reactionary, clever wordplay

favored class bonus(es): skill points

racial traits: multitalented, ancestral arms, elven immunities, low-light vision, keen senses

skills: acrobatics, stealth, UMD, perception, diplo, bluff, sense motive, climb, sleight of hand, disguise
Specific questions: What's the best Rogue archetype that trades out trapfinding and is still useful for a 3-level dip? Is there an easier way to do any/all of this? Does anything look out of place? Am I taking feats in the right order for maximum effectiveness at the level they're taken (5-10 especially)? Any other suggestions?

[Castilonium]

There are a lot of options for you, depending on what you want to do. It seems like you want to crit-fish with an elven curved blade and switch-hit with ranged weapons too. But aside from skills, your build has little utility outside of combat. To answer your question, the best rogue archetype for you is Thug (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake) which makes you a great debuffer. You will need to get Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) to intimidate while power attacking, or you can take the Blade of Mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/blade-of-mercy-goddess-of-dawn) trait and Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat) feat instead.

For options other than fighter and rogue, consider the following classes:

Ranger. Full BAB, 6 skill points per level, several feats that ignore prerequisites, and 4th level casting makes you good at fighting and decent with utility. Pick Trapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper) to give up spellcasting in exchange for traps, which aren't as good as spells, but are fun to use.

Slayer (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer). Full BAB, 6 skill points per level, fighting style feats like a ranger, sneak attack, talents, other handy abilities, and no spellcasting. The Vanguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/archetypes/paizo---slayer-archetypes/vanguard) is great for buffing your team like a warlord would, and gets a bonus to initiative.

Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph) Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) Alchemist. 4 skill points per level, and intelligence based for more skill points and better use of your Clever Wordplay trait. Trade out bombs and poison-related abilities for sneak attack and better self-buffing capabilities that make you a terror in combat. I don't know if you consider alchemy to be casting, but 6th level alchemy makes you exceedingly versatile.

Investigator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator). 6 skill points per level, intelligence based like the alchemist, inspiration to add to your rolls, investigator talents which can also be taken as rogue talents, and abilities that make you better in combat. You get +1 attack and damage per 2 levels from Studied Combat. The Sapping Offensive and Sickening Offensive let you debuff enemies you damage with no save. The Empiricist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo---investigator-archetypes/empiricist) archetype trades out poison-based abilities to let you use intelligence for several useful skills. Like an Alchemist, you can use extracts to buff yourself to be even beter in combat. Monstrous Physique is a good extract for this.

Vigilante (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante). 6 skill points per level, a good will save, and a huge slew of talents that are often stronger than feats. You can choose to have full BAB, a d8 sneak attack, or 6th level spellcasting if you pick an archetype. Many of your social talents are things that can't be replicated by other classes without magic, and many of your vigilante talents are like feats that improve in functionality as you gain levels. If you feel leery about the whole Dual Identity thing, don't worry. Seriously, it's not a big deal. You can completely ignore it if you want, and just adventure at all times in your social identity, gaining the advantages of everything except the intimidate bonus from Renown.

That's a general overview of classes that are both good at (mostly) non-magical fighting and utility. If you're more specific about what you want to be able to do, maybe I can help more ♥

[stanprollyright]

Thanks for the response!


There are a lot of options for you, depending on what you want to do. It seems like you want to crit-fish with an elven curved blade and switch-hit with ranged weapons too. But aside from skills, your build has little utility outside of combat. To answer your question, the best rogue archetype for you is Thug (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake) which makes you a great debuffer. You will need to get Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) to intimidate while power attacking, or you can take the Blade of Mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/blade-of-mercy-goddess-of-dawn) trait and Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat) feat instead.

My hang up I think is between Rake and Thug; Rake lets me demoralize without a feat, Thug makes demoralizing better. Between Martial Flexibility and Fighter feats, it shouldn't be hard to make room for Cornugan Smash. Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses will make a great martial flexibility combo as well. So yeah, Thug looks great.

As far as utility out of combat, aside from skills I can grab Equipment tricks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat) with Martial Flexibility.


Ranger. Full BAB, 6 skill points per level, several feats that ignore prerequisites, and 4th level casting makes you good at fighting and decent with utility. Pick Trapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper) to give up spellcasting in exchange for traps, which aren't as good as spells, but are fun to use.

Switch-hitter Ranger would defnitely be a good choice; however we have a Hunter in the party and I don't want to step on his toes. There was also a pretty successful switch-hitter that I helped build in the previous campaign, and I've played a lot of Rangers in my life and they've always seemed a tad underpowered to me. Another thing is that from my understanding Curse of the Crimson Throne mostly takes place in the city of Korvosa, so many of those wilderness abilities could go unused. I know archetypes can help, but eh.


Slayer (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer). Full BAB, 6 skill points per level, fighting style feats like a ranger, sneak attack, talents, other handy abilities, and no spellcasting. The Vanguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/archetypes/paizo---slayer-archetypes/vanguard) is great for buffing your team like a warlord would, and gets a bonus to initiative.

Haven't looked at this class much. Thanks for the suggestion! Vanguard looks fun, but no martial versatility. Hmm...


Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph) Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) Alchemist. 4 skill points per level, and intelligence based for more skill points and better use of your Clever Wordplay trait. Trade out bombs and poison-related abilities for sneak attack and better self-buffing capabilities that make you a terror in combat. I don't know if you consider alchemy to be casting, but 6th level alchemy makes you exceedingly versatile.

Waaaaay too powerful for this party. I'm both the most experienced and biggest optimizer in the party, and it would be difficult not to completely wreck everything. Plus, I just played an investigator.


Investigator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator). 6 skill points per level, intelligence based like the alchemist, inspiration to add to your rolls, investigator talents which can also be taken as rogue talents, and abilities that make you better in combat. You get +1 attack and damage per 2 levels from Studied Combat. The Sapping Offensive and Sickening Offensive let you debuff enemies you damage with no save. The Empiricist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo---investigator-archetypes/empiricist) archetype trades out poison-based abilities to let you use intelligence for several useful skills. Like an Alchemist, you can use extracts to buff yourself to be even beter in combat. Monstrous Physique is a good extract for this.

Just finished playing a Steel Hound. I had ranks in every skill and could add d8s to every roll :smallbiggrin:


Vigilante (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante). 6 skill points per level, a good will save, and a huge slew of talents that are often stronger than feats. You can choose to have full BAB, a d8 sneak attack, or 6th level spellcasting if you pick an archetype. Many of your social talents are things that can't be replicated by other classes without magic, and many of your vigilante talents are like feats that improve in functionality as you gain levels. If you feel leery about the whole Dual Identity thing, don't worry. Seriously, it's not a big deal. You can completely ignore it if you want, and just adventure at all times in your social identity, gaining the advantages of everything except the intimidate bonus from Renown.

This character was originally a Teisatsu Vigilante, but as I was looking over my build it seemed like a late-bloomer, which always bugs me. The guy playing the Bard was originally a Magus, and when he switched to being an Archaelogist Bard, I figured I should make something that would conflict less.


That's a general overview of classes that are both good at (mostly) non-magical fighting and utility. If you're more specific about what you want to be able to do, maybe I can help more ♥

Well, my goal is to make a martial character with an absurd number of options in and out of combat. Out of combat I'm mostly limited to just skills, so I'd like as many of them as possible, though being a full skillmonkey is unecessary. I've become pretty enamored of the Martial Flexibility ability, and it almost makes me want to go Exemplar Brawler, which would not only give me Brawler's Flurry and earlier access to Martial Flexibility, but the archetype also grants bardic performance AND tactician! I'd probably go temple sword&board with wooden stakes as my ranged weapon, which is much shorter range than the composite longbow I'd have hoped for and doesn't get to use all those juicy crit feats, but the whole build comes together much sooner and I don't have to waste any skill points on knowledge skills.

[Castilonium]

Exemplar Brawler was another suggestion I was thinking of making, but I wanted to mention the more rogue-like classes with lots of skill points first. You seem to really like Martial Flexibility, and Brawlers have more skill points and faster progression on Martial Flexibility than fighters, so go for it.

It's strange that you thought the Teisatsu Vigilante is a late bloomer, when it has objectively more class features than both rogues and fighters, and which scale to boot. Maybe it's because Martial Flexibility effectively can give you every single combat feat in the game. But your fighter build doesn't get that until level 6. A regular brawler gets the ability to learn 2 feats at once with martial flexibility at level 6. If you play an Avenger vigilante, you get full BAB and exactly as many bonus feats as a fighter via vigilante talents, minus the one at level 1 that fighters get. Deadly Grace would be a perfect talent for your stat lineup, and you wouldn't need to spend 3 levels on rogue.

Ask your GM if they will allow Daisho Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) from Path of War Expanded. It's just a feat.
Daisho Expertise (combat)
Your grace and skill with both the katana and wakizashi is on the level of a prodigy.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with the katana or wakizashi.

Benefit: Increase the damage die of katanas and wakizashi you wield by one die step. In addition, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier when making attack rolls with either weapon. This feat counts as Weapon Finesse for purposes of meeting the prerequisites of other feats.

Special: If you are proficient with the katana as a martial weapon, you meet the prerequisites for this feat, although you only gain its benefit while wielding a katana in two hands (to gain these benefits while wielding the katana in one hand, you must possess Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the weapon). You must possess Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the wakizashi to gain the benefits of this feat with a wakizashi.
This way, you won't need to spend a feat/alternate racial feature on EWP elven curved blade, and will deal more damage. Any class with martial weapon proficiency (fighter, slayer, vigilante) can use a katana two-handed. Teisatsu vigilantes and ninjas have full proficiency with the katana. You might overshadow the samurai in your party, though :smalltongue:

If that's a no go, a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone) will give you weapon familiarity for 1500 gp, saving you a feat for your elven curved blade.

And finally, I'll tell you a fun little trick for versatility that any class can do, but you have to be a tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) to do it. Get the Soul Seer and Pass for Human alternate racial traits. Then get the Adopted (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/adopted) and Minor Wishcraft (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Minor%20Wishcraft) traits. Soul Seer gives you an at-will racial spell-like ability to fuel Minor Wishcraft, and Pass for Human makes you count as a humanoid, so you can grant yourself wishes and cast any cantrip in the entire game at will :smallbiggrin:

[Vortenger]

And finally, I'll tell you a fun little trick for versatility that any class can do, but you have to be a tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) to do it. Get the Soul Seer and Pass for Human alternate racial traits. Then get the Adopted (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/adopted) and Minor Wishcraft (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Minor%20Wishcraft) traits. Soul Seer gives you an at-will racial spell-like ability to fuel Minor Wishcraft, and Pass for Human makes you count as a humanoid, so you can grant yourself wishes and cast any cantrip in the entire game at will :smallbiggrin:

Thou hast opened mine eyes to beauty!

[Malroth]

Ninja into Drunken master Quixong monk, use Forgotten Trick and booze to change your feats on the fly or to learn spells.

[stanprollyright]

It's strange that you thought the Teisatsu Vigilante is a late bloomer, when it has objectively more class features than both rogues and fighters, and which scale to boot. Maybe it's because Martial Flexibility effectively can give you every single combat feat in the game. But your fighter build doesn't get that until level 6. A regular brawler gets the ability to learn 2 feats at once with martial flexibility at level 6. If you play an Avenger vigilante, you get full BAB and exactly as many bonus feats as a fighter via vigilante talents, minus the one at level 1 that fighters get. Deadly Grace would be a perfect talent for your stat lineup, and you wouldn't need to spend 3 levels on rogue.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504840-Vigilante-anyone-ever-play-one) is my previous thread for the Teisatsu. There's something that doesn't sit right to me about the vigilante talents; the opportunity costs of giving you better versions of the feats you were going to get anyway is weighed against a bunch of talents that are way better than feats, so it makes you not take the feats that you want because otherwise it's a waste. The "swap it later" clause on those talents seems great, but you have to swap it with something you would have qualified for at the level you took it originally, so now you've used a talent to get your second-best option from several levels ago. If you look at that build, in the first five levels I'm spending my feats on talents and my talents on feats, can't go into melee until level 4 (despite being a melee build), and I'm not even sure if it's legal for me to take Extra Ninja Trick. That and I've always thought sneak attack was overrated.

Avenger seems like an excellent Fighter, but not a versatile one.


Ask your GM if they will allow Daisho Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) from Path of War Expanded. It's just a feat.
Daisho Expertise (combat)
Your grace and skill with both the katana and wakizashi is on the level of a prodigy.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with the katana or wakizashi.

Benefit: Increase the damage die of katanas and wakizashi you wield by one die step. In addition, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier when making attack rolls with either weapon. This feat counts as Weapon Finesse for purposes of meeting the prerequisites of other feats.

Special: If you are proficient with the katana as a martial weapon, you meet the prerequisites for this feat, although you only gain its benefit while wielding a katana in two hands (to gain these benefits while wielding the katana in one hand, you must possess Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the weapon). You must possess Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the wakizashi to gain the benefits of this feat with a wakizashi.
This way, you won't need to spend a feat/alternate racial feature on EWP elven curved blade, and will deal more damage. Any class with martial weapon proficiency (fighter, slayer, vigilante) can use a katana two-handed. Teisatsu vigilantes and ninjas have full proficiency with the katana. You might overshadow the samurai in your party, though :smalltongue:

I can ask, but it's not likely. I'm probably going to overshadow the samurai anyway, but it's definitely his own fault. I've been trying to get him to play anything other than an unoptimized Fighter-type for his last 5 or 6 characters, and then listening to him complain that his toon can't do anything, and then he gets all bored when we try to advance the story without fighting stuff. He might be leaving the group soon anyway.


If that's a no go, a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone) will give you weapon familiarity for 1500 gp, saving you a feat for your elven curved blade

Thanks, I didn't know about that! Too expensive for level 1, but if I start with a rapier in the Fighter build I could get this eventually. Without needing ancestral arms, I could possibly get Drow SLAs and Drow Nobility feats. Though it is rather costly. Lose EWP/skill focus, take half-drow paragon, then take drow nobility; effectively 3 feats for levitate 1/day.

The ioun stone would work for the Brawler too, because I can get longbow proficiency with it.


And finally, I'll tell you a fun little trick for versatility that any class can do, but you have to be a tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) to do it. Get the Soul Seer and Pass for Human alternate racial traits. Then get the Adopted (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/adopted) and Minor Wishcraft (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Minor%20Wishcraft) traits. Soul Seer gives you an at-will racial spell-like ability to fuel Minor Wishcraft, and Pass for Human makes you count as a humanoid, so you can grant yourself wishes and cast any cantrip in the entire game at will :smallbiggrin:

Wow! I mean, I've always thought Tieflings were a tad bit cheesy from the get go, so I'm not going to use this, but that is a really cool thing to know about!


Ninja into Drunken master Quixong monk, use Forgotten Trick and booze to change your feats on the fly or to learn spells.

That's a neat trick. I've never liked the flavor of Drunken Master, or Monks in general, though, but thanks for the suggestion!


Exemplar Brawler was another suggestion I was thinking of making, but I wanted to mention the more rogue-like classes with lots of skill points first. You seem to really like Martial Flexibility, and Brawlers have more skill points and faster progression on Martial Flexibility than fighters, so go for it.

The Fighter build was originally planned with a Bard VMC instead of a Rogue dip. The more I look at the Exemplar Brawler, the more I like it - for the first 5-10 levels at least. Which, honestly, I'm not sure if this game will last until the end or if I'm going to keep this character the whole time. Our other campaign has no original characters in it anymore, and I get enamored of new builds, like, every week. This is part of why I want Martial Flexibility; so I can try out a new build every week. :smallbiggrin:

I'm also looking at the Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist) for later. It would work for any build, really. That should really boost my out-of-combat utility - and if that's not enough, I can take Improvisation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/improvisation-human).

[stanprollyright]

OK, I took a stab at building an exemplar brawler. I like it. It comes together quickly and scales nicely. I'll probably give it some fresh eyes later before updating my digital char sheet.

half elf exemplar brawler

1 EWP temple sword, power attack, martial flexibility
2 combat expertise, brawler's flurry
3 quick draw, inspiring prowess
4 knockout 1/day
5 deific obedience, weapon focus, field instruction
6 martial flexibility 2
7 evangelist 1: iron will
8 aligned class: brawler 7, protective grace +1
9 dodge, lingering performance, divine boon 1
10 gift of tongues
11 discordant voice, martial flexibility 3, inspire greatness, multitude of talents
12 weapon spec, divine boon 2
13 fast learner or additional traits
14 gift of tongues
15 greater weapon focus, greater weapon spec, divine boon 3
16 inspire heroics, spiritual form (+4 str, wings)
17 improvisation or improved initiative
18 hammer the gap
19 improved improvisation or whatever
20

str 15(17)
dex 14
con 12
int 13
wis 8
cha 10

traits: indomitable faith

favored class bonus(es): skill points

racial traits: fey thoughts, ancestral arms, elven immunities, low-light vision, keen senses

P.S. I've got plenty of time to play with my build, so keep suggestions coming!

[Captain Morgan]

Exemplar Brawler sounds like a really good fit. It you want that Warlord flavor you need some charisma and group buff abilities. Exemplars also combine nicely with the shield gauntlet style feats.

Advance Weapon Training can also allow a fighter to apply his bravery bonus to all will saves, and I believe there is a feat in Ultimate Intrigue which makes said buff party wide. Also, Brawler levels count as fighter levels for feat purposes, which can be really handy and lead to some neat combos at higher levels, including big spikes to your skill points.

[stanprollyright]

Exemplar Brawler sounds like a really good fit. It you want that Warlord flavor you need some charisma and group buff abilities.

Well, it's elite array so I'm pretty stretched for ability score points. I figure with a 10 cha, ranks in social skills, bardic performance and tactician, I should do well enough. Also, I'm pretty charismatic irl :smallwink:


Exemplars also combine nicely with the shield gauntlet style feats.

Definitely something to consider for Martial Flexibility if I ever lose my temple sword.


Advance Weapon Training can also allow a fighter to apply his bravery bonus to all will saves, and I believe there is a feat in Ultimate Intrigue which makes said buff party wide. Also, Brawler levels count as fighter levels for feat purposes, which can be really handy and lead to some neat combos at higher levels, including big spikes to your skill points.

Sadly, Advanced Weapon Training is out of reach, since my preferred archetypes in both Brawler and Fighter give up Weapon Training (and Bravery).

EDIT: "human or half-elf" and "sword" are locked in to the character concept. LN, ex-gangster. Likes to monologue (in a NY accent) about how Korvosa "is really 5 cities" and "old" Korvosa is just "Korvosa"

[Xerlith]

Muscle Mage (https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/4q1yi0/turn_your_fighter_into_a_caster_by_using_advanced/)! Since you're a Fighter, grab the Weapon Master archetype and go, go, CON-based spellcasting.

Technically you aren't playing a caster, you just... Have spells.

As for a rogue/fighter, I have an 8th level 4/4 build. Here. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=973604)

EDIT: Here's his counterpart (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=973745), another rogue/fighter with a rather different setup.

[stanprollyright]

Muscle Mage (https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/4q1yi0/turn_your_fighter_into_a_caster_by_using_advanced/)! Since you're a Fighter, grab the Weapon Master archetype and go, go, CON-based spellcasting.

Technically you aren't playing a caster, you just... Have spells.

As for a rogue/fighter, I have an 8th level 4/4 build. Here. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=973604)

OMG...That's...whoa...

[stanprollyright]

Upon further reflection:

Exemplar Brawler still looks good in the morning.

Muscle Mage is not quite as cool as I originally thought, since you have to already possess an item that can kinda-sorta do something similar to the thing you wanna do. It is still probably worth a dip regardless. On my latest build, 3 levels of Weapon Master could go after Evangelist, since Brawler doesn't get anything meaningful after 15, or it could possibly replace Evangelist altogether without losing BAB.

Evangelist is rather fluffy, not sure how I feel about it. I guess it depends on whoever is the most prevalent nonevil deity in the campaign. The utility abilities are OK, a couple extra languages and +4 to all the skills I never cared about at level 10 is underwhelming. Muscle Mage gets better SLAs. Spirit Form, plus technically only losing one level of Brawler, is where the real draw is. And extra skill points.

The obvious answer is "why not both?"

The obvious question, therefore, is not "which one?" but rather "which one first?"

Theoretically, Muscle Mage could come online at 9th or so. By then I should have a few items to play with. But that pushes back everything else. Evangelist abilities were already underwhelming at the levels they were coming, plus Bardic Performances and Martial Flexibility and Brawler's Flurry all get delayed. If I wait until after Evangelist, I don't get Muscle SLAs until 19th - I don't even think this AP goes that high.

TOO MANY VARIABLES AHHHH

[Captain Morgan]

Go Exemplar 6 and then Weapon Master 3. You really seem to like that martial flexibility, and you don't need weapon training until you can afford some items anyway.

[Xerlith]

Muscle Mage is not quite as cool as I originally thought, since you have to already possess an item that can kinda-sorta do something similar to the thing you wanna do. It is still probably worth a dip regardless. On my latest build, 3 levels of Weapon Master could go after Evangelist, since Brawler doesn't get anything meaningful after 15, or it could possibly replace Evangelist altogether without losing BAB.

Except it doesn't. Fighter explicitly ignores the spell requirements in the mastery feats.

[stanprollyright]

Except it doesn't. Fighter explicitly ignores the spell requirements in the mastery feats.

Whoa...I missed that...obviously...that's crazy good.


Go Exemplar 6 and then Weapon Master 3. You really seem to like that martial flexibility, and you don't need weapon training until you can afford some items anyway.

I think you're right!