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Dr. Cliché
2016-12-22, 09:36 AM
Just curious as to whether there are any RPGs that don't use Vancian Magic?

I'm especially interested in ones that don't use the first 'rule' of Vancian Magic:

"Magical effects are packaged into distinct spells; each spell has one fixed purpose. A spell that throws a ball of fire at an enemy just throws balls of fire, and generally cannot be "turned down" to light a cigarette, for instance."

KillingAScarab
2016-12-22, 09:51 AM
What genre would you prefer? Do the rules need to be a part of the base game? Mage: the Ascension has flexible spellcasting built into it, but isn't your standard high fantasy sword and sorcery game, at all; it's set in a modern not-very-nice world (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld) where magic is difficult to perform. Pathfinder has the Spheres of Power rules, which I think are supposed to work similarly, and magic is common-place in the usual setting, but that book is from a third-party publisher. D&D 3.5 has two alternate magic systems: psionics and Incarnum. Psionics has specific pre-packaged effects but you can invest more resources into them to make the numbers larger. Incarnum has self-generated magic items which have slightly different effects depending on available chakra binds (affected by class level), plus some ability to make the numbers larger.

CharonsHelper
2016-12-22, 10:20 AM
"Magical effects are packaged into distinct spells; each spell has one fixed purpose. A spell that throws a ball of fire at an enemy just throws balls of fire, and generally cannot be "turned down" to light a cigarette, for instance."

Having specific rules to allow that is rare, but I've seen systems where more out of combat uses (such as lighting a cigarette) don't use up significant daily resources.

Zombimode
2016-12-22, 10:33 AM
Just curious as to whether there are any RPGs that don't use Vancian Magic?

I'm especially interested in ones that don't use the first 'rule' of Vancian Magic:

"Magical effects are packaged into distinct spells; each spell has one fixed purpose. A spell that throws a ball of fire at an enemy just throws balls of fire, and generally cannot be "turned down" to light a cigarette, for instance."

I think there is a bit of confusion of terminology. The effect you describe has not really anything to do with Vancian Magic.
Vancían Magic describes a System where spells are prepared beforehand and the Magic User is limited to this preselection. The spells in question could be quite flexible.
For instance the spells could be as broad as "Fire", "Ice", "Life", "Darkness" etc.
As Long as the Magic User has to prepare, say, 2 Fire spells, 1 Life and 1 Darkness spell, this would be Vancian Magic.

An example for an non-vancian Magic System that still has the behaviour that you describe would be 3.5 Psionics.

Those to concepts are thus unrelated.

What is of interest for you is wether or not Magic is defined as distinct spells or not.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-12-22, 11:03 AM
Just curious as to whether there are any RPGs that don't use Vancian Magic?
Most of them?

Eldan
2016-12-22, 11:09 AM
Most of them?

I was just about to say. Are there any except D&D that have anything similar to Vancian?

Dr. Cliché
2016-12-22, 11:15 AM
I think there is a bit of confusion of terminology. The effect you describe has not really anything to do with Vancian Magic.

I was going by this definition:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic

Segev
2016-12-22, 11:23 AM
I was going by this definition:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic

Fair enough. It is true that prepackaged "spells" of specific effects are a crucial component to Vancian Magic. The reason people are saying that that isn't what defines it is because the part to which most refer when saying "D&D uses Vancian magic" is the notion that you memorize spells, and then forget them when you cast them. Or, in 3e terms, you prepare them ahead of time, and then cast them.

Technically, even D&D sorcery isn't really "Vancian" anymore, though it is recognizably related.


That said, what you asked about is a lack of pre-packaged spells. Generally, there are surprisingly few systems which have "magic" that isn't in some sense bundled into specific spells. Mage is the biggest I can think of. I know Alpha/Omega also has more of a "build your own effect" vibe. Dresden Files uses the FATE system and is based on a series where "spells" are a "build your own package" deal.

BESM and Mutants and Masterminds 3e allow you to build most effects as "magic," though you do have specified powers that can be used in relatively specific ways.

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-22, 11:25 AM
I was going by this definition:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic


I've always considered the distinct "prepackaged effect" part and parcel of "Vancian magic", along with the need to prepare in discrete "slots ahead of time.

CharonsHelper
2016-12-22, 11:28 AM
I was going by this definition:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic

Fair enough.

#1 is true of most games to some degree, as otherwise you would have to have magic be incredibly broad and likely ill-defined.

#s 2&3 on that list are what really differentiate Vancian Magic.

Mutazoia
2016-12-22, 11:32 AM
If I remember correctly, Iron Heroes magic system has you build your own spells, deciding what effect and how much power, etc. when cast, so you are not stuck with pre-packaged spells. Magic is, btw, an option in that system. The rest of the system assumes no magic at all.

LibraryOgre
2016-12-22, 11:33 AM
I've always considered the distinct "prepackaged effect" part and parcel of "Vancian magic", along with the need to prepare in discrete "slots ahead of time.

Whereas I would say the "distinct, prepackaged" aspect is common enough that it's not distinctly an aspect of Vancian magic; Harry Potter's spells are pretty distinct, but they're not Vancian, because they don't require pre-preparation. Star Wars' Force Powers (WEG and Saga) are pretty pre-packaged, but they're not Vancian.

To the OP's desires, there's a lot of systems like that. Mage has been mentioned. The old Dragonlance Saga system worked that way. Ars Magica includes prepackaged spells, but Spontaneous magic is very freeform.

8BitNinja
2016-12-22, 12:11 PM
Are you looking for a system that uses mana? Or are you looking for a system where the potency of spells can be jacked up or toned down?

Lorsa
2016-12-22, 12:21 PM
I think you need to try Ars Magica. It really is one of the most interesting magic systems I have seen.

RazorChain
2016-12-22, 12:57 PM
I think you need to try Ars Magica. It really is one of the most interesting magic systems I have seen.

Of all magic system from all the different RPGs I've played, Ars Magica has the best.

It first establishes limits of magic, what magic can and cannot do. It then breaks the magical arts into 5 techniques; Creo (I create), Rego (I control), Perdo (I destroy), Muto (I change), Intellego (I perceive)

Then you have 10 forms: Ignem (Heat/Fire), Auram (Gases and wind), Aquam (Liquids), Terram (Earth and metals), Herbam (Plants), Animál (animals), Corpus (body), Mentem (mind), Imágonem (image and sounds) and Vim (Power, Magic, Spirit)

To make a spell you combine 2 or more techniques and forms, like with Creo Ignem you can make a fireball, the higher you have in your Creo and Ignem stat the more powerful effect you can cast.

Spells are in 3 categories, 1st is formulaic which is very close to vancian magic where the magus casts a spell according to a formula to get the same effect again and again. 2nd is improvised magic which where the magus makes up a spell on the spot, it's harder to do but much more flexible and adaptable. 3rd you have ritual magic which are powerful rituals that can surpass normal spells both in scope, duration and range.

In fact the system is so good that I've adapted it to Gurps, which is the system I use most these days.

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-22, 01:03 PM
Of all magic system from all the different RPGs I've played, Ars Magica has the best.

It first establishes limits of magic, what magic can and cannot do. It then breaks the magical arts into 5 techniques; Creo (I create), Rego (I control), Perdo (I destroy), Muto (I change), Intellego (I perceive)

Then you have 10 forms: Ignem (Heat/Fire), Auram (Gases and wind), Aquam (Liquids), Terram (Earth and metals), Herbam (Plants), Animál (animals), Corpus (body), Mentem (mind), Imágonem (image and sounds) and Vim (Power, Magic, Spirit)

To make a spell you combine 2 or more techniques and forms, like with Creo Ignem you can make a fireball, the higher you have in your Creo and Ignem stat the more powerful effect you can cast.

Spells are in 3 categories, 1st is formulaic which is very close to vancian magic where the magus casts a spell according to a formula to get the same effect again and again. 2nd is improvised magic which where the magus makes up a spell on the spot, it's harder to do but much more flexible and adaptable. 3rd you have ritual magic which are powerful rituals that can surpass normal spells both in scope, duration and range.

In fact the system is so good that I've adapted it to Gurps, which is the system I use most these days.

Based on something a fellow member of my group found online years ago, I adapted a vast chunk of Vampire oWoD thaumaturgy, etc, to use that system of techniques and forms. I still have the Word doc.

Dr. Cliché
2016-12-22, 01:05 PM
Of all magic system from all the different RPGs I've played, Ars Magica has the best.

It first establishes limits of magic, what magic can and cannot do. It then breaks the magical arts into 5 techniques; Creo (I create), Rego (I control), Perdo (I destroy), Muto (I change), Intellego (I perceive)

Then you have 10 forms: Ignem (Heat/Fire), Auram (Gases and wind), Aquam (Liquids), Terram (Earth and metals), Herbam (Plants), Animál (animals), Corpus (body), Mentem (mind), Imágonem (image and sounds) and Vim (Power, Magic, Spirit)

To make a spell you combine 2 or more techniques and forms, like with Creo Ignem you can make a fireball, the higher you have in your Creo and Ignem stat the more powerful effect you can cast.

Spells are in 3 categories, 1st is formulaic which is very close to vancian magic where the magus casts a spell according to a formula to get the same effect again and again. 2nd is improvised magic which where the magus makes up a spell on the spot, it's harder to do but much more flexible and adaptable. 3rd you have ritual magic which are powerful rituals that can surpass normal spells both in scope, duration and range.

In fact the system is so good that I've adapted it to Gurps, which is the system I use most these days.

Wow, that sounds like really interesting system. Cheers.

Thrudd
2016-12-22, 01:15 PM
Just curious as to whether there are any RPGs that don't use Vancian Magic?

I'm especially interested in ones that don't use the first 'rule' of Vancian Magic:

"Magical effects are packaged into distinct spells; each spell has one fixed purpose. A spell that throws a ball of fire at an enemy just throws balls of fire, and generally cannot be "turned down" to light a cigarette, for instance."

That isn't really the feature that defines the "Vancian" magic system. (That being spells which are imprinted in a special part of the mind and then disappear after casting them, as well as the magician having a very finite capacity to store such spells.)

Regardless- the World of Darkness Mage games do that. D6 Fantasy can potentially do that (it's a completely customizable setting agnostic system). GURPS can do that.

wumpus
2016-12-22, 01:42 PM
If you want to see D&D done with "mana", look at the dungeons and dragons online rules (you would probably have to go back to the original release if you can find those rules written down, adjusting the rest of the game to deal with powercreep would be a problem).

In such a system I would recommend two sets of poker chips: one for hit points and one for spell points. Don't run out of either... (In DDO you have to rest [at as rest shrine, no one encounter a day quests here] to get back spell points. Any other means gets *severely* expensive*).

* ok, eventually clerics could burn undead turns to give *someone else* more spell points. You probably would want to start with earlier rules.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-22, 02:21 PM
"Magical effects are packaged into distinct spells; each spell has one fixed purpose. A spell that throws a ball of fire at an enemy just throws balls of fire, and generally cannot be "turned down" to light a cigarette, for instance."

To concentrate on this idea, the big ones to mention are all in the same 'family'. In order of oldest sibling to youngest sibling.

Ars Magica: This is the most interesting way I've seen of codifying magic. It's been over, but the way the effects are separated is awesome. While there is a list of example spells, a lot of it is working out how hard a particular effect is, or working together to build a formulaic spell. It is, however, academia the RPG, expect lots of fighting over papers, roleplaying sitting in a tower reading books, and the fire mage getting banned from the library. Most adventuring, if it happens, is likely to be done by nonmagi while the magus characters work in the lab.

Mage the Ascenion: Here flexible magic is the king. In Ars Magica it can still be very important whether or not you have a formulaic spell, in Ascension rotes might be nice to have, but a lot of the game is 'do I have the spheres to do that?' Magic is split into 9 areas/spheres, Correspondence, Entropy, Forces, Life, Matter, Mind, Prime, Spirit, and Time, each rated from zero to five (zero is no knowledge in that area, five is mastery). Additionally magic use is governed by a separate stat called Arte (although houseruling casting to also use the sphere's rating is not uncommon). Rotes make your magic better, but at the end of the day it's more important to be able to hide your spells from witnesses by making them 'believable'.

Mage the Awakening: Take Ascension, solidify the magic as hermetic gnostic instead of Ascension's 'anything goes', rename Entropy to Fate, and have a Death sphere for zombies that pinches some bits of Fate, Life, and Spirit, and add a ton of example spells and make rotes better, and you get Awakening.

8BitNinja
2016-12-22, 02:40 PM
Of all magic system from all the different RPGs I've played, Ars Magica has the best.

It first establishes limits of magic, what magic can and cannot do. It then breaks the magical arts into 5 techniques; Creo (I create), Rego (I control), Perdo (I destroy), Muto (I change), Intellego (I perceive)

Then you have 10 forms: Ignem (Heat/Fire), Auram (Gases and wind), Aquam (Liquids), Terram (Earth and metals), Herbam (Plants), Animál (animals), Corpus (body), Mentem (mind), Imágonem (image and sounds) and Vim (Power, Magic, Spirit)

To make a spell you combine 2 or more techniques and forms, like with Creo Ignem you can make a fireball, the higher you have in your Creo and Ignem stat the more powerful effect you can cast.

Spells are in 3 categories, 1st is formulaic which is very close to vancian magic where the magus casts a spell according to a formula to get the same effect again and again. 2nd is improvised magic which where the magus makes up a spell on the spot, it's harder to do but much more flexible and adaptable. 3rd you have ritual magic which are powerful rituals that can surpass normal spells both in scope, duration and range.

In fact the system is so good that I've adapted it to Gurps, which is the system I use most these days.

10 stats for magic? I thought that The Elder Scrolls went overboard with 8.

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-22, 02:45 PM
10 stats for magic? I thought that The Elder Scrolls went overboard with 8.

5 and 10, so in a way it's 15.

I played a lot of a homebrew system that had 12 schools of magic, and the "level" of spell you could cast with each one was limited by your skill in that school.

jayem
2016-12-22, 02:53 PM
Of all magic system from all the different RPGs I've played, Ars Magica has the best.
...

That does sound good, a nice mix of flexibility and predictability.

Satinavian
2016-12-22, 02:54 PM
10 stats for magic? I thought that The Elder Scrolls went overboard with 8.There are games out there using the same idea with 30+ stats. And other games with an improvable skill for every single spell.

Always liked Ars Magica personally.

jayem
2016-12-22, 03:05 PM
5 and 10, so in a way it's 15.

I played a lot of a homebrew system that had 12 schools of magic, and the "level" of spell you could cast with each one was limited by your skill in that school.

I guess though that 15 is pretty much it, and being (at least) pseudo 2D covers a vast range of 'Vancian' spells.

Morrowind may only have 8, but then you have 100 odd binary do I have waterball things to log, and each spell has it's own damage/duration/areaofeffect (of which half of the numbers are duplicating the ones you already had).

RazorChain
2016-12-22, 03:09 PM
10 stats for magic? I thought that The Elder Scrolls went overboard with 8.


Looks like you've never played the skill monkey in a skill based system.....you might have up to 50 skills.

In a game called The Art of Magic where everyone rolls a magus and the focus is magic, I don't think 15 is going overboard. It's like telling a DnD player that keeping an excel spreadsheet over all his magic items is going overboard.

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-22, 03:28 PM
I guess though that 15 is pretty much it, and being (at least) pseudo 2D covers a vast range of 'Vancian' spells.


The 5x10 setup adapted from Ars Magica is broad and flexible enough that you can fit just about any "pre-modern" spell into it, and a great many "modern/scientific" effects as well.

The challenge isn't finding a combination that feels right, so much as it's getting the required skill ratings set for a particular spell such that it's balanced and fair for the particular campaign setting/atmosphere.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-22, 04:37 PM
Looks like you've never played the skill monkey in a skill based system.....you might have up to 50 skills.

In a game called The Art of Magic where everyone rolls a magus and the focus is magic, I don't think 15 is going overboard. It's like telling a DnD player that keeping an excel spreadsheet over all his magic items is going overboard.

As someone who hates D&D5e because it's hard to skillmonkey (my favourite archetype along with casters, to the point I'll spend 40PP on skill ranks in Mutants and Masterminds), the Ars Magica system works great due to it's verb/noun structure. It gives 50 different basic spell types, while allowing for more complex spells by combining even more skills (although I forget how using multiple bound work, and multiple verbs is even worse because the core doesn't mention it).

As it is, a Magus likely focuses on one or two nouns (and maybe specialises in a verb, Perdo is the specialty of the sample character). It's not my favourite fantasy game, but the magic system is awesome.

Knaight
2016-12-22, 05:00 PM
I was just about to say. Are there any except D&D that have anything similar to Vancian?

There's various fantasy heartbreakers, and then there's some deliberately retro games that take a lot from D&D (ACKS, Torchbearer). If you dilute the definition enough that discrete spells is all it takes to count then it's pretty ubiquitous. With that said, there's also tons of cases where the discrete spell system is replaced with a different magic system*. Ars Magica has already been mentioned, but I'd add Barbarians of Lemuria, FATE 2e, Fate 3e, GURPS, Mage, several systems for Fudge, and on a borderline note finish up the off the top of my head list with Chronica Feudalis.

*Then there's lots more that don't use Vancian Magic because they don't use magic at all, but that's a pointless technicality.

Jama7301
2016-12-22, 05:38 PM
Non-Fantasy, but I'm a fan of Shadowrun's casting system, where casting can take a toll on the caster in the form of Drain. If the caster just NEEDS that extra effect, they can overpower their casting, at the risk of their own health.

Cluedrew
2016-12-22, 05:53 PM
In fact the system is so good that I've adapted it to Gurps, which is the system I use most these days.Its always kind of weird to me when I hear someone ported something to GURPS. I would just expect it to already have it.


10 stats for magic? I thought that The Elder Scrolls went overboard with 8.I've done a system with 16 elements. Or 2x(2 groups of 4). ... Of course 2 of them were basically the same and so you would probably combine them stat wise. But I couldn't leave an empty space in the wheel.

Knaight
2016-12-22, 05:59 PM
I've done a system with 16 elements. Or 2x(2 groups of 4). ... Of course 2 of them were basically the same and so you would probably combine them stat wise. But I couldn't leave an empty space in the wheel.

I'm currently running something that uses a noun-verb system with 27 key words thus far, and more planned. With that said, they're used as something more akin to treasure than skills - you have them or you don't, and to get them you can go to certain sites of power which have a tendency to be highly inaccessible.

LibraryOgre
2016-12-22, 06:36 PM
I'm currently running something that uses a noun-verb system with 27 key words thus far, and more planned. With that said, they're used as something more akin to treasure than skills - you have them or you don't, and to get them you can go to certain sites of power which have a tendency to be highly inaccessible.

Fus Ro Dah?

Knaight
2016-12-22, 06:55 PM
Fus Ro Dah?

Kind of. I don't have my notes on me (they're kept at the house of the player who hosts the game), but the basics are:

Each "spell" is a combination of a verb and a noun.
There are sites of power, which generally make accessible either two nouns and a verb or two verbs and a noun. Individual people can learn two out of three per site (with the implication that there are rare talents that could learn 3, and some who might not even get two).
These are fairly narrow. For instance, the verbs that the party has acquired so far are Sense, Fuse, Excite, and Condense. The nouns the party has acquired so far are Magic, Mineral, Lava, Metal, and Light.
The setting as it is features the PCs as the discoverers of magic and those who bring it to more people, as the core concept that the players were interested in and that I made the setting for was the discovery of magic and invention of magitech.
Each verb-noun combination does cover a range of spells. For instance, condense light has so far been used for flash bangs, signaling, and gravitational lensing.


I wouldn't generally use a system this complicated, but when the players explicitly requested magitech and magic discovery as main campaign focuses? Why not?

Kane0
2016-12-22, 07:47 PM
Of all magic system from all the different RPGs I've played, Ars Magica has the best.

It first establishes limits of magic, what magic can and cannot do. It then breaks the magical arts into 5 techniques; Creo (I create), Rego (I control), Perdo (I destroy), Muto (I change), Intellego (I perceive)

Then you have 10 forms: Ignem (Heat/Fire), Auram (Gases and wind), Aquam (Liquids), Terram (Earth and metals), Herbam (Plants), Animál (animals), Corpus (body), Mentem (mind), Imágonem (image and sounds) and Vim (Power, Magic, Spirit)

To make a spell you combine 2 or more techniques and forms, like with Creo Ignem you can make a fireball, the higher you have in your Creo and Ignem stat the more powerful effect you can cast.

Spells are in 3 categories, 1st is formulaic which is very close to vancian magic where the magus casts a spell according to a formula to get the same effect again and again. 2nd is improvised magic which where the magus makes up a spell on the spot, it's harder to do but much more flexible and adaptable. 3rd you have ritual magic which are powerful rituals that can surpass normal spells both in scope, duration and range.

In fact the system is so good that I've adapted it to Gurps, which is the system I use most these days.

I'd love to see this replicated in D&D. Anyone willing to give it a crack?

Esprit15
2016-12-22, 07:53 PM
My DM has been working on a non-Vancian system of magic for 3.5. Spells are each descriptors, such as fire, force, raise dead, etc, and the power of the spell is a different aspect entirely. The descriptors can be mixed and matched as needed for different effects, such as adding fire to a magic weapon. It still does keep the idea of limited magic per day, in that without resting, you take a cumulative penalty on the check to cast a spell based on the amount of difficulty to cast that you've use in the day. So if you cast a DC 80 spell, a DC 60 spell, and a DC 100 spell, you're taking a -24 penalty on the check.

RazorChain
2016-12-22, 08:36 PM
Its always kind of weird to me when I hear someone ported something to GURPS. I would just expect it to already have it.

I've done a system with 16 elements. Or 2x(2 groups of 4). ... Of course 2 of them were basically the same and so you would probably combine them stat wise. But I couldn't leave an empty space in the wheel.

Well Gurps always had word magic before but not quite like Ars Magica, but it was easy to adapt :)

8BitNinja
2016-12-22, 09:12 PM
There are games out there using the same idea with 30+ stats. And other games with an improvable skill for every single spell.

Always liked Ars Magica personally.

Never mind.

I guess I just always preferred games with small amounts of stats.

Remedy
2016-12-22, 09:33 PM
I'd love to see this replicated in D&D. Anyone willing to give it a crack?
This wouldn't work in D&D at all. Ars Magica has very different fundamental assumptions driving all its mechanics that allows that to work really well in its own context. I can't think of any of the editions of D&D I've played where "mix and match skills for magic" would work in any sense. 3.5e makes it nearly impossible to develop new skills and pointless to have skills at low levels, along with not typically giving out very many as it is. 5e has no skill granularity and no means outside of multiclassing to gain new skills. The first two editions are such a scrambled mess with their skill systems that I wouldn't even know where to start.

D&D's skill systems are generally... Sufficient for what they set out to do. But they aren't nearly robust enough to try anything new with them.

On top of that, the open-ended mix-and-match style of Ars Magica spell creation is utterly antithetical to D&D's valiant efforts (with varying levels of success) to enforce balance through structure and uniform applicability.

The closest you will ever get to Ars Magica magic in a system like D&D is Spheres of Power in Pathfinder. And those really aren't that close either.

Jay R
2016-12-22, 09:56 PM
You will find Vancian magic only in D&D (or games which are basically D&D with the serial numbers filed off, like Pathfinder or Tunnels and Trolls.

You might look into Fantasy Hero. Magic works exactly the way you want it to. I once designed a bard, and all of his spells were songs, requiring incantation, gestures (harp playing), 5 minutes to cast, affects everyone in hearing distance, and a performance skill roll. He would sing a couple of inspiring buff songs to the party at the start of the day, and then use his sword in melee.

Another player could design an enchantment magic style that required looking people in the eye.

Lots of people don't like Hero Systems, because character design requires low-level arithmetic. But if that isn't a bar for your group, it's a very flexible system.

digiman619
2016-12-22, 10:51 PM
If you don't mind using Pathfinder's 3rd party, check out Spheres of Power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/). Basically it makes magic a Tech tree rather than a buffet where you can pick and choose. Also, if you want a lot of flexibility in your magic, you might want to look int Composition Magic on the same site (it's part of the "Strange Magic" collection.

Knaight
2016-12-23, 12:04 AM
This wouldn't work in D&D at all. Ars Magica has very different fundamental assumptions driving all its mechanics that allows that to work really well in its own context. I can't think of any of the editions of D&D I've played where "mix and match skills for magic" would work in any sense. 3.5e makes it nearly impossible to develop new skills and pointless to have skills at low levels, along with not typically giving out very many as it is. 5e has no skill granularity and no means outside of multiclassing to gain new skills. The first two editions are such a scrambled mess with their skill systems that I wouldn't even know where to start.

Maintaining it as a skill system doesn't work too well. With that said: Psionic powers already have a scaling system built in for D&D 3.5, and the combinations work out to a set of 50 psionic powers, all of which can be tweaked. 5e instead has a spell system that scales by spell slot used. As in Ars Magica, each noun-verb combination works out to multiple distinct spells, so that 50 easily scales up to something like 250. Then words are gained as levels go up - 15 words gives access to the whole 250, something like 8 can give from 35-80 (assuming that you aren't dumb enough to take all nouns or all verbs). That's not unreasonably huge.

Will it feel like D&D magic still? Yes, because a direct port doesn't work. Is making a noun-verb magic system and classes based on it doable? Absolutely. Will it feel distinct from existing D&D magic in a few ways? Also yes. This gets particularly true if you restrict the power of spells available by field, with something like each of the known words having a 0-5 mastery scale, with the maximum spell slot usable (5e style) being ((noun mastery)+(verb mastery)) and only 1 word able to reach 5, or a 0-10 scale for power points.

8BitNinja
2016-12-23, 12:37 AM
This wouldn't work in D&D at all. Ars Magica has very different fundamental assumptions driving all its mechanics that allows that to work really well in its own context. I can't think of any of the editions of D&D I've played where "mix and match skills for magic" would work in any sense. 3.5e makes it nearly impossible to develop new skills and pointless to have skills at low levels, along with not typically giving out very many as it is. 5e has no skill granularity and no means outside of multiclassing to gain new skills. The first two editions are such a scrambled mess with their skill systems that I wouldn't even know where to start.

D&D's skill systems are generally... Sufficient for what they set out to do. But they aren't nearly robust enough to try anything new with them.

On top of that, the open-ended mix-and-match style of Ars Magica spell creation is utterly antithetical to D&D's valiant efforts (with varying levels of success) to enforce balance through structure and uniform applicability.

The closest you will ever get to Ars Magica magic in a system like D&D is Spheres of Power in Pathfinder. And those really aren't that close either.

Also the fact that D&D isn't based around magic, and can be played without magic.

Knaight
2016-12-23, 01:06 AM
Also the fact that D&D isn't based around magic, and can be played without magic.

That's debatable - yes, technically magic can be stripped out of D&D. It can be stripped out of Ars Magica too, and I'd argue that it is substantially easier to do so without screwing up the game. D&D has always had a substantial fraction of classes be at least partial spellcasters, magic items have been emphasized from the beginning, overtly magic creatures plus magic using creatures make up the bulk of the monster manual, etc.

Zombimode
2016-12-23, 02:33 AM
Of all magic system from all the different RPGs I've played, Ars Magica has the best.

It first establishes limits of magic, what magic can and cannot do. It then breaks the magical arts into 5 techniques; Creo (I create), Rego (I control), Perdo (I destroy), Muto (I change), Intellego (I perceive)

Then you have 10 forms: Ignem (Heat/Fire), Auram (Gases and wind), Aquam (Liquids), Terram (Earth and metals), Herbam (Plants), Animál (animals), Corpus (body), Mentem (mind), Imágonem (image and sounds) and Vim (Power, Magic, Spirit)

To make a spell you combine 2 or more techniques and forms, like with Creo Ignem you can make a fireball, the higher you have in your Creo and Ignem stat the more powerful effect you can cast.



Hm, interesting. How interdependet are the techniques? Can you or do you have to make nested Statements?

Like for a non-static Illusion that you actively Control, would it be something like: Rego (Muto (Creo (Imagonem)))?
Or Rego ( Creo (Terram)) for making a Golem under your Control?


Actually, this reminds me of something. Could a query based Magic System work within the context of a PnP RPG?
It should only have a very simple Syntax and most effects should be achieved by simple and intuitive Statements.

Is something like this possible?

I swear this is not my work catching up to me :smalltongue:

KillingAScarab
2016-12-23, 03:25 AM
Hm, interesting. How interdependet are the techniques? Can you or do you have to make nested Statements?

Like for a non-static Illusion that you actively Control, would it be something like: Rego (Muto (Creo (Imagonem)))?
Or Rego ( Creo (Terram)) for making a Golem under your Control?


Actually, this reminds me of something. Could a query based Magic System work within the context of a PnP RPG?
It should only have a very simple Syntax and most effects should be achieved by simple and intuitive Statements.

Is something like this possible?

I swear this is not my work catching up to me :smalltongue:SML - Structured Magic Language. :smalltongue: Combine this with a setting like the Marvel Universe and we could have a Squirrel Girl (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Squirrel_Girl) who is more powerful than Doctor Strange. :smallamused:

http://media.comicbook.com/2016/08/optimized-unbeatable-squirrel-girl-11-interior-min-196314.jpg (http://comicbook.com/2016/08/24/review-the-unbeatable-squirrel-girl-11-is-mathematically-awesome/)

Satinavian
2016-12-23, 03:53 AM
Like for a non-static Illusion that you actively Control, would it be something like: Rego (Muto (Creo (Imagonem)))?
Or Rego ( Creo (Terram)) for making a Golem under your Control?
That is pretty specific and is has been some years i last played it, but iirc the nomal nonstatic illusion would still be just Creo Imaginem, while Rego Imaginem could be used to change what a recipient sees or hears.

Golems

with Creo Terram you could make the body of a golem, but that would be a waste of magic as that would be only a statue, with Rego Terram you could move a statue like a marrionette, but that is still far away from a golem. You would be better off summoning a spirit to posess a statue which would work iirc via Creo Vim. To get control over it then would work via Rego Vim and would be a separate enchantment to allow all the fun with uncontrolled constructs.
Also such a strong work would require additional rare magical material components and people would think really carefully if they want to do that.

So no, no chaining of techniques in spells. If something would require several techniques to be done properly, you have to cast several spells.


As for query based magic system : I don't think that would be a sensible idea. A magic system is not only about "how do i express any magic effect", it is also about balancing and scaling all the options. Coding languages are to hide the convoluted boring stuff to make the life easier for the programmer, but in P&P the GM would need to take the role of the computer here. It would be a horrible mess and waste of time.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-23, 06:35 AM
Also the fact that D&D isn't based around magic, and can be played without magic.


That's debatable - yes, technically magic can be stripped out of D&D. It can be stripped out of Ars Magica too, and I'd argue that it is substantially easier to do so without screwing up the game. D&D has always had a substantial fraction of classes be at least partial spellcasters, magic items have been emphasized from the beginning, overtly magic creatures plus magic using creatures make up the bulk of the monster manual, etc.

Agreeing with Knaight. While the magic system is the whole point of Ars Magica, it also encourages troupe play, so players may send out their mundane characters on a quest while their magi hide away researching new spells. The no magic adventuring works, unlike in D&D, partially due to it being skill based. It's also a much less combat focused system, and your average opponent will be another human with the occasional magical creature (generally the reverse of D&D).

Grac
2016-12-23, 07:30 AM
Even in 3.5, with the addition of reserve feats, the idea of distinct spells starts to break down.

8BitNinja
2016-12-23, 12:55 PM
That's debatable - yes, technically magic can be stripped out of D&D. It can be stripped out of Ars Magica too, and I'd argue that it is substantially easier to do so without screwing up the game. D&D has always had a substantial fraction of classes be at least partial spellcasters, magic items have been emphasized from the beginning, overtly magic creatures plus magic using creatures make up the bulk of the monster manual, etc.

But it was just stated that everyone rolls a Magus.

It's alright though, I have never played Ars Magica.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-23, 01:11 PM
But it was just stated that everyone rolls a Magus.

It's alright though, I have never played Ars Magica.

Everyone generally makes multiple characters, normally a Magus and a Companion (nonmagus character), and then if your characters aren't in the scene you can play a grog (minor character). It's designed for troupe play.

2D8HP
2016-12-23, 01:39 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CUGACO3WRXE/To5KSQ7_8_I/AAAAAAAAguo/aLnlf1ehXgg/s400/rpg-Stormbringer.jpg

Chaosium's old Stormbringer! (http://siskoid.blogspot.com/2011/10/rpgs-that-time-forgot-stormbringer.html?m=1) game had a "magic system" based on summoning and attempting to control demons and elementals. It was completely BADASS! and I thought it was truer to Swords and Sorcery than D&D.
The main flaw as a game was that it's random character typically generated made PC's with very wide power-levels (more so than D&D) so you'd wind up with a party of one mighty sorcerer and four drooling begger "sidekicks".

I believe that Chaosium's latest version of
Basic Roleplaying (http://www.chaosium.com/basic-roleplaying/)
has a point buy option that you can drop in.

If I'm ever forced to DM/GM again going that route would be in my top three picks.

Come to think of it, if I could somehow combine '70's rules D&D, 5e D&D, Pendragon, and Stormbringer! it would be ONE GAME TO RULE THEM ALL!

Morty
2016-12-23, 02:33 PM
"Prepackaged spells" is really stretching the definition of "vancian" magic to the point of near-uselessness. The magic in Jack Vance's Dying Earth was very specific, and D&D's magic only superficially resembles it as well.

8BitNinja
2016-12-23, 05:32 PM
Everyone generally makes multiple characters, normally a Magus and a Companion (nonmagus character), and then if your characters aren't in the scene you can play a grog (minor character). It's designed for troupe play.

That must be hard to play multiple characters.

Xuc Xac
2016-12-23, 05:48 PM
Lots of people don't like Hero Systems, because character design requires low-level arithmetic.

No, lots of people don't like Hero Systems because character design requires high-volume arithmetic. It's easy but there's a lot of it and it takes a long time to go through everything because it's all interconnected. One small change here can have cascading effects on other things.

Remedy
2016-12-23, 05:54 PM
That must be hard to play multiple characters.
You don't play them at the same time. Ars Magica is a game with pretty real world-esque andvancement and project speeds. So your magus might spend seasons or years at a time in their laboratory making spells, reading books, crafting items, etc. and you might play mundane characters for adventures in the interim. Sometimes certain characters just won't care enough to go on certain adventures, and other times they're already preoccupied with other offscreen adventures (Wizard's Twilight (disappearing magical coma/trance), long-term quests, political maneuvering, etc.) so you have other characters to play in the interim. For somebody like me who gets bored if I play one character for too long at a time, it's a great way to keep me invested in plot lines for a whole campaign, since otherwise I'll probably retire my character halfway through should they have survived that long. (It happens pretty much every time I play any long-lasting D&D campaign.)

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-23, 06:24 PM
No, lots of people don't like Hero Systems because character design requires high-volume arithmetic. It's easy but there's a lot of it and it takes a long time to go through everything because it's all interconnected. One small change here can have cascading effects on other things.


I'm trying to think of where the arithmetic spreads out beyond a single power at a time, or a few figured characteristics.

Jay R
2016-12-23, 08:32 PM
No, lots of people don't like Hero Systems because character design requires high-volume arithmetic. It's easy but there's a lot of it and it takes a long time to go through everything because it's all interconnected. One small change here can have cascading effects on other things.

Phrase it how you like. It involves arithmetic, at a level that doesn't slow me down at all. Some people don't like it for that reason. One person at my table is unwilling to go through it, so I create his character sheet.

Knaight
2016-12-23, 09:10 PM
Phrase it how you like. It involves arithmetic, at a level that doesn't slow me down at all. Some people don't like it for that reason. One person at my table is unwilling to go through it, so I create his character sheet.

These are distinct concepts, not two phrasings of the same concept. You consistently assume the concept that heavily implies that all the detractors of the system are basically innumerate, and every time at least one detractor makes a comment that it is in fact the other concept that reflects their problems with the system.

Xuc Xac
2016-12-23, 10:12 PM
I'm trying to think of where the arithmetic spreads out beyond a single power at a time, or a few figured characteristics.

Limitations are based on how often they come up. An energy blast that only affects wooden targets is much cheaper than one that can be used against anything. But if you take "Enemy: Woodman" and "Hunted by: Legion of Evil Trees", suddenly that limitation doesn't seem so limiting and you have to recalculate the value of that power. If you got a lot of points back for being lame and confined to a wheelchair, you'll have to recalculate the value that disadvantage if you spent the points on the power to levitate at will. If you made a power cheaper by making it an obvious accessible focus like a crown and then gave yourself adhesive skin or prehensile tentacle hair to prevent anyone from grabbing it away from you, you'll have to change it to an obvious inaccessible focus and recalculate the value to give some of those points back.

If you have a power pool for things like Iron Man's "I have a garage full of different suits but I can only wear one at a time", you'll be recalculating that pool of points every time you change your suit until the GM bans power pools for being too much hassle. To be fair, I haven't played it since 3rd or 4th edition, so maybe the newer editions are better.

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-23, 10:53 PM
Limitations are based on how often they come up. An energy blast that only affects wooden targets is much cheaper than one that can be used against anything. But if you take "Enemy: Woodman" and "Hunted by: Legion of Evil Trees", suddenly that limitation doesn't seem so limiting and you have to recalculate the value of that power. If you got a lot of points back for being lame and confined to a wheelchair, you'll have to recalculate the value that disadvantage if you spent the points on the power to levitate at will. If you made a power cheaper by making it an obvious accessible focus like a crown and then gave yourself adhesive skin or prehensile tentacle hair to prevent anyone from grabbing it away from you, you'll have to change it to an obvious inaccessible focus and recalculate the value to give some of those points back.

If you have a power pool for things like Iron Man's "I have a garage full of different suits but I can only wear one at a time", you'll be recalculating that pool of points every time you change your suit until the GM bans power pools for being too much hassle. To be fair, I haven't played it since 3rd or 4th edition, so maybe the newer editions are better.

I probably have a better idea of how HERO works than most people here, you don't have to explain it to me.

You're grossly overstating the "cascade" effect of, for example, a changed Limitation. In most cases it's nothing more than the difference between, say a 60 point Power having a 1/4 or 1/2 Limitation, that is, 60/1.25 = 48 pts real cost, vs 60/1.5 = 40 pts real cost.

Plus, there's also HeroDesigner out there which does all the math and creates characters sheets to just about whatever template you could want.

8BitNinja
2016-12-23, 11:04 PM
You don't play them at the same time. Ars Magica is a game with pretty real world-esque andvancement and project speeds. So your magus might spend seasons or years at a time in their laboratory making spells, reading books, crafting items, etc. and you might play mundane characters for adventures in the interim. Sometimes certain characters just won't care enough to go on certain adventures, and other times they're already preoccupied with other offscreen adventures (Wizard's Twilight (disappearing magical coma/trance), long-term quests, political maneuvering, etc.) so you have other characters to play in the interim. For somebody like me who gets bored if I play one character for too long at a time, it's a great way to keep me invested in plot lines for a whole campaign, since otherwise I'll probably retire my character halfway through should they have survived that long. (It happens pretty much every time I play any long-lasting D&D campaign.)

Wow, Ars Magica seems complex. But I guess I'm over thinking all of this. I guess I should check out the manual.

2D8HP
2016-12-24, 12:46 AM
You might look into Fantasy Hero....
....Lots of people don't like Hero Systems, because character design requires low-level arithmetic. But if that isn't a bar for your group, it's a very flexible system.I never bought or played Fantasy Hero probably because my "circle" already had tried: D&D, C&S, Stormbringer, Runequest, and MERP/Rolemaster (and my brother got Empire of the Petal Throne, I got The Fantasy Trip, Pendragon, and GURPS Fantasy, and Jake liked Tunnels & Trolls) so we were oversaturated with Swords and Sorcery, but I think I have some idea of what character creation is like because I have played both the Champions (comic book superheroes) and Espionage (spies) HERO system games.
Basically you have points that you use to get powers/abilities/skills, and you can have disadvantages that get you more points (which is how I learned the word megalomania!), a bit like the earlier Melee/Wizard/The Fantasy Trip, and a lot like the later GURPS. Building a character was an engrossing solo mini game that felt a lot like making a custom car for Car Wars (which also came out about the same time as Champions), and not unlike thinking up "builds" for 21st Century D&D.
Unlike Car Wars which had stock car options, I don't remember many pre-gen options (except for villians), so you couldn't quickly "roll up" characters like you could with D&D.
Ultimately I didn't like either Champions (which was very popular) or Espionage, and that's for the same reason I didn't care for Villains & Vigilantes, or Top Secret, because I just don't like the settings (the only non Swords and Sorcery setting RPG that I've played that kept my interest has been Traveller), but the core system was pretty cool.
If you have the time for and enjoy "building" characters, I would recommend it.

Kane0
2016-12-24, 01:19 AM
Hmm, skill tree spellcasting. And just like that I have a mini-project for the break!

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-24, 09:10 AM
I never bought or played Fantasy Hero probably because my "circle" already had tried: D&D, C&S, Stormbringer, Runequest, and MERP/Rolemaster (and my brother got Empire of the Petal Throne, I got The Fantasy Trip, Pendragon, and GURPS Fantasy, and Jake liked Tunnels & Trolls) so we were oversaturated with Swords and Sorcery, but I think I have some idea of what character creation is like because I have played both the Champions (comic book superheroes) and Espionage (spies) HERO system games.
Basically you have points that you use to get powers/abilities/skills, and you can have disadvantages that get you more points (which is how I learned the word megalomania!), a bit like the earlier Melee/Wizard/The Fantasy Trip, and a lot like the later GURPS. Building a character was an engrossing solo mini game that felt a lot like making a custom car for Car Wars (which also came out about the same time as Champions), and not unlike thinking up "builds" for 21st Century D&D.
Unlike Car Wars which had stock car options, I don't remember many pre-gen options (except for villians), so you couldn't quickly "roll up" characters like you could with D&D.
Ultimately I didn't like either Champions (which was very popular) or Espionage, and that's for the same reason I didn't care for Villains & Vigilantes, or Top Secret, because I just don't like the settings (the only non Swords and Sorcery setting RPG that I've played that kept my interest has been Traveller), but the core system was pretty cool.
If you have the time for and enjoy "building" characters, I would recommend it.


It really depends on what a group is looking for. HERO isn't a game, it's a toolkit for building games.

137beth
2016-12-27, 02:05 AM
I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb and suggest Word Mill's Mythic Roleplaying. (http://wordmillgames.com/mythic-rpg.html) It's a rules-light, universal system, and abilities tend to be relatively free-form. If you want non-packaged magic, you can make the system give you what you want. Of course, you can also play it without magic at all, but I suspect that that's not what you want when you say you don't want to use Vancian magic.

Arcane_Snowman
2016-12-27, 07:18 AM
Wow, Ars Magica seems complex. But I guess I'm over thinking all of this. I guess I should check out the manual. I'm not gonna say that it's not (because that'd be blatantly untrue), but the Troupe structure also means that the game plays out more like a serialized television series than movies (which is what I'd usually liken a D&D campaign to). Star Trek always seems like the best conceptual comparison I can make:
You've got the Starship "insert name of choice" in the form of the Covenant, which grounds the narrative and player characters to a certain area, whilst providing them with a base of operations.
You have the officers, the captain etc. in the form of the Magi (main characters) and Companions (supporting cast), depending on their importance to the story, who are the focus of the overall narrative, although not the focus of every weeks narrative. Ultimately it's their journey in the final frontier that we care about, as well as their advancement as characters (and thus those are the category of characters that the players actually keep track of).
If a given player has no reason to include characters of either of those categories in their adventures, or the adventure is too dangerous you send the red shirts (grogs), so that they can valiantly die where no one has died before.

Put together it all serves to encourage a sandbox with a central focus point (the covenant), meaning that the DM workload is significantly less than you might think as the players won't necessarily be travelling around too much, the adventures come to them (either in the form of rumors, as well as magical or mundane troubles at their doorsteps). And because the game tracks time (and makes it important to advancement) you can get a continuum where the main characters are each pursuing completely separate motives and adventures, whilst at the same time having every player be involved every step of the way.

After having run in this fashion for a while now, I actually find it very difficult to think in another way about the structure of my games: there's always the incentive to ask "and what does your character do?" which when it comes to the major movement of the players is often a recipe for splitting the party.

That isn't to say it's the one true way, but it's very much a different experience, and one which I could scarcely enjoy more.

LibraryOgre
2016-12-27, 04:42 PM
with Creo Terram you could make the body of a golem, but that would be a waste of magic as that would be only a statue, with Rego Terram you could move a statue like a marrionette, but that is still far away from a golem. You would be better off summoning a spirit to posess a statue which would work iirc via Creo Vim. To get control over it then would work via Rego Vim and would be a separate enchantment to allow all the fun with uncontrolled constructs.
Also such a strong work would require additional rare magical material components and people would think really carefully if they want to do that.


Rego Vim is usually to summon a spirit; you couldn't make a true golem, anyway, since that requires you to create life (which violates one of the laws of magic).

If I were to put something like Ars Magica's magic in D&D, I'd probably have your different Arts be separate skills, require prerequistites for different spells (Fireball requires both Creo and Ignem), and then have you roll your lower of the two skills. So, if I'm casting Fireball, I need to have both Creo and Ignem of 30%. If I have Creo 36% and Ignem 52%, I have to roll under 36% to cast it successfully. If it were a Creo Ignem (Au) spell, I'd have to have Cr, Ig, and Au of 30% or better, and would roll the lowest of the three.

RazorChain
2016-12-27, 10:13 PM
Rego Vim is usually to summon a spirit; you couldn't make a true golem, anyway, since that requires you to create life (which violates one of the laws of magic).

If I were to put something like Ars Magica's magic in D&D, I'd probably have your different Arts be separate skills, require prerequistites for different spells (Fireball requires both Creo and Ignem), and then have you roll your lower of the two skills. So, if I'm casting Fireball, I need to have both Creo and Ignem of 30%. If I have Creo 36% and Ignem 52%, I have to roll under 36% to cast it successfully. If it were a Creo Ignem (Au) spell, I'd have to have Cr, Ig, and Au of 30% or better, and would roll the lowest of the three.


Nah...Rego Vim only allows you to control a spirit that is already there, Creo for the purposes of creating or summoning something...maguses often have no clue weather they are creating something or just summoning things from somewhere else. But you could bind a spirit into a statue for a year and thus create a golem. Kabbalah magic iirc was best way to create golems.

wumpus
2016-12-30, 11:04 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CUGACO3WRXE/To5KSQ7_8_I/AAAAAAAAguo/aLnlf1ehXgg/s400/rpg-Stormbringer.jpg

Chaosium's old Stormbringer! (http://siskoid.blogspot.com/2011/10/rpgs-that-time-forgot-stormbringer.html?m=1) game had a "magic system" based on summoning and attempting to control demons and elementals. It was completely BADASS! and I thought it was truer to Swords and Sorcery than D&D.
The main flaw as a game was that it's random character typically generated made PC's with very wide power-levels (more so than D&D) so you'd wind up with a party of one mighty sorcerer and four drooling begger "sidekicks".

I believe that Chaosium's latest version of
Basic Roleplaying (http://www.chaosium.com/basic-roleplaying/)
has a point buy option that you can drop in.

If I'm ever forced to DM/GM again going that route would be in my top three picks.

Come to think of it, if I could somehow combine '70's rules D&D, 5e D&D, Pendragon, and Stormbringer! it would be ONE GAME TO RULE THEM ALL!

I remember a suggestion to replace a lot of Stormbringer rules with Runequest ones. Might have just been combat and part of the 80s need to "make everything more complicated". Also everyone involved was rather young and probably hadn't played all that many games (partly because many hadn't come out yet, this had to have been around 1984).

Presumably massaging the character generator system would have made more sense. I didn't really learn either system.

BWR
2016-12-30, 12:08 PM
You will find Vancian magic only in D&D (or games which are basically D&D with the serial numbers filed off, like Pathfinder or Tunnels and Trolls.


Not quite true (https://www.dyingearth.com/)

Arbane
2016-12-30, 12:50 PM
Not quite true (https://www.dyingearth.com/)

That's cheating. :smallbiggrin:

Also, Amber Diceless Roleplaying, based on Zelazny's Amber novels, which came up the 'spells are prepared for quick casting' explanation before D&D did.

I could make an argument that RuneQuest's Divine Magic is kinda Vancian - you trade points from your magic stat for a divine spell that normally only works once, but priests can renew them.