Sneak Attack and Negative Damage

[hector212121]

I'm making a really low str character who, at least for a few levels is going to be using str to damage. Will rolling a 1 on a 1d8-3 but a 6 on my sneak attack damage mean I do:

4 damage(1+6-3)
6 damage(no damage from the 1d8 but damage from the sneak attack) or
7 damage(minimum 1 damage from the 1d8+6 from sneak attack)?

[exelsisxax]

I'm making a really low str character who, at least for a few levels is going to be using str to damage. Will rolling a 1 on a 1d8-3 but a 6 on my sneak attack damage mean I do:

4 damage(1+6-3)
6 damage(no damage from the 1d8 but damage from the sneak attack) or
7 damage(minimum 1 damage from the 1d8+6 from sneak attack)?

4. None of these are typed anything, so there's no minimum or stacking rules. It's just math.

[hector212121]

Actually sneak attack is precision damage. So it might be separate. Maybe.

[legomaster00156]

I would rule that the SA is added to the damage of the main attack before the penalty applies.

[CharonsHelper]

I'm guessing that you're an unchained rogue (get dex-to damage at level 3) with a 5 STR. Since you're using a d8, are you a Halfling with a elven curved blade? (A kitsune would likely be using d6 weapons (rapier/shortsword) and their curved blade would be d10.)

Big point of note:



If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.

With that in mind - without the sneak attack, d8-3 wouldn't be dealing enough damage to GET sneak attack on a roll of 1-3, because you can't get nonlethal sneak attack unless using a weapon designed for such.


... She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack...

[Geddy2112]

Yes, sneak attack is a separate pool that does not factor in strength. Imagine it like having the flaming or frost or some other weapon quality that adds damage.

[hector212121]

I'm guessing that you're an unchained rogue (get dex-to damage at level 3) with a 5 STR. Since you're using a d8, are you a Halfling with a elven curved blade? (A kitsune would likely be using d6 weapons (rapier/shortsword) and their curved blade would be d10.)

Big point of note:



With that in mind - without the sneak attack, d8-3 wouldn't be dealing enough damage to GET sneak attack on a roll of 1-3, because you can't get nonlethal sneak attack unless using a weapon designed for such.

A rapier does d8 damage, actually.

And I'm doing a cross-class trickster/kensai. Haven't decided on what weapon to use yet.

Anyway, i have a simple solution--spellstrike. XD since that IS seperate damage and thus even if i rolled really, really low, if my gm rules that way i can apply sneak attack to THAT.

[exelsisxax]

A rapier does d8 damage, actually.

And I'm doing a cross-class trickster/kensai. Haven't decided on what weapon to use yet.

Anyway, i have a simple solution--spellstrike. XD since that IS seperate damage and thus even if i rolled really, really low, if my gm rules that way i can apply sneak attack to THAT.

Rapiers are d6, NOT d8.

what is "cross-class"? if you are multiclassing, just drop rogue. Magi are almost strictly superior to even unchained rogues, but trying to multiclass will hamper both. There's a few magus archetypes with sneak damage, they might be compatible with kensai.

[hector212121]

wait **** i misremembered.

Anyway, i'm mainly gonna be the face of the party. Kitsune Rogue means i get to add int to all the talky things, so it's indispensable. I could only go 1 level, but 1.that's cheesy and 2. level 3 gives dex to damage, which at 5 str is indispensable, too.

[CharonsHelper]

wait **** i misremembered.

Anyway, i'm mainly gonna be the face of the party. Kitsune Rogue means i get to add int to all the talky things, so it's indispensable. I could only go 1 level, but 1.that's cheesy and 2. level 3 gives dex to damage, which at 5 str is indispensable, too.

A magus can get dex-to-damage with Dervish Dance when using a scimitar.

But if you want to go rogue, I'd stick with rogue. 4th level gets you Debilitating Strike (which is awesome) and at that point you might as well stick with it. In Pathfinder, multi-classing is generally a bad idea.

And yes - while magi are more potent than rogues, that's true of all casters vs martials. With Unchained Rogue, a rogue becomes a very solid martial with more out of combat than most due to skills & skill unlocks.

[exelsisxax]

A magus can get dex-to-damage with Dervish Dance when using a scimitar.

But if you want to go rogue, I'd stick with rogue. 4th level gets you Debilitating Strike (which is awesome) and at that point you might as well stick with it. In Pathfinder, multi-classing is generally a bad idea.

And yes - while magi are more potent than rogues, that's true of all casters vs martials. With Unchained Rogue, a rogue becomes a very solid martial with more out of combat than most due to skills & skill unlocks.

UCrogue is absolutely viable. I didn't mean it as magus > rogues, but as "stop trying to fix your rogue build with magus".

[hector212121]

Look, Magical Knack mostly compensates for the level dip, anyway, and a kensai uses a lot of pearls of power anyway... :P

[CharonsHelper]

Look, Magical Knack mostly compensates for the level dip, anyway,

Not really.

[grarrrg]

With that in mind - without the sneak attack, d8-3 wouldn't be dealing enough damage to GET sneak attack on a roll of 1-3, because you can't get nonlethal sneak attack unless using a weapon designed for such.

She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack...
I interpret that rule differently.

I'd say in this case it's more a matter of -intent- and not -result-.
The Weapon is designed to deal lethal, and the weapon is being used with the intent to deal lethal damage, so the Sneak Attack should still apply.

More "intent matters" to consider:
Ablative Barrier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/ablative-barrier) vs. weak attack.
Flesh Wound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/flesh-wound-ex) vs. any attack

Just because a Barbarian can Flesh Wound my attack shouldn't give him the ability to then ignore all the Sneak Dice on that attack, and THEN take half damage.


Also, let's look at that whole paragraph:

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
I'd say it's mostly concerned with the -option- to make any attack nonlethal (also seen on Merciful Weapons, and certain class abilities).

[The Random NPC]

With that in mind - without the sneak attack, d8-3 wouldn't be dealing enough damage to GET sneak attack on a roll of 1-3, because you can't get nonlethal sneak attack unless using a weapon designed for such.

That isn't quite what it says, You can get nonlethal sneak attack on a weapon if it deals nonlethal damage. You also can't use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal sneak attack. So if you're weapon deals nonlethal damage for what ever reason, you get nonlethal sneak attack (assuming you meet the other criteria). Or, alternatively, any sneak attack you do deal with a lethal weapon used nonlethally, is lethal.

[Calthropstu]

RAW:

Sneak attack is additional damage. Weapon damage is minimum 1 nonlethal. If your strength reduces this below 1, you deal 1 nonlethal point of damage. Sneak attack is then applied: 1d6. So 1 nonlethal and 6 lethal.