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Keld Denar
2007-07-17, 08:22 AM
I was talking to a friend of mine about pimping out my dwarf monk. He suggested going monk4/fighter2/pious templar9 which would put the character at 15th level for retirement. One thing he suggested though, was a feat that allows you to "burn" a stunning fist use to add 1d6 fire to all attacks in a round. That combined with improved natural attack and a 3rd level paladin spell that I also can't remember would make the unarmed damage scale nicely, and since the build is only missing 1 BAB, it would still be somewhat ok to power attack with at mid to high levels, esp if I can get armbands of might.

It's not a super optimized build, but it sounds like a lot of fun, and my monk is already 3rd level so I'm gonna give it a try. Could someone let me know what that feat is, what any potential prereqs are for it, and any general comments on the build? Thanks.

Dhavaer
2007-07-17, 08:25 AM
There's a feat that does something like that in the Player's Handbook 2, I can't recall what it's called, though.

Funkyodor
2007-07-17, 08:31 AM
There's also a 2nd lvl Ranger Druid spell in the Complete Champion that lets natural weapons be enchanted to duplicate Cold Iron or Silver effects.

Person_Man
2007-07-17, 08:48 AM
The feat is called Fiery Fist from the PHBII. It requires +8 BAB.

However, feats that add marginal static bonuses are much weaker then feats that add scaled bonuses. Therefore you should almost never take them.

If you're looking for superior Monk feats, I suggest Touch of Golden Ice from the Book of Exalted Deeds (Evil creatures must Save vs. Poison on every attack) and/or Freezing the Lifeblood from Complete Warrior (turns Stunning Fist into a paralyzing attack that lasts 1d4+1 rounds).

Also, in most cases Monks are not just sub-optimal, but very poor at what they do. This is particularly true when it comes to damage dealing. Are you open to other non-Monk but Monk-like builds, such as a Swordsage or Fist of the Forest?

Keld Denar
2007-07-17, 09:10 AM
The build is for the Living Greyhawk campaign, so a lot of the fun options like fist of the forest arn't available. I already started the monk, who is now 3rd level, so either either abandon the time I invested in it (about 30 hours of play time) or find some way to supe it up a bit. My friend mentioned a paladin 3 spell (via Pious Templar of Zurokan) that makes your fists count as adamantine, and adds like, 1d6 or something, combine that with firey fists and improved natural attack, and you are dropping 4d6 on each attack in a full attack. Add in free weapon spec from PT, decent str (would be about +5-6 mid level), GMF or GMW +3 or so and a little bit of power attack a la armbands of might, and you are talking 4d6+15 or so by level 9 on a full attack fully power attacking for 2. It's not as much as my power attacking spiked chain fighter, but it should be fun to play. I figured fiery fists would be a good use of my 4ish stunning fist uses since the DC will be static because I'm not progressing full as monk (bout 15, not too great) and the way LG works, 4 will be enough uses per day in a typical combat anyway.

Person_Man
2007-07-17, 09:38 AM
Ok. If you do go with Pious Templar, pick up the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion. It quickens every Paladin spell for free. Pious Templar casts off the Paladin list, and it has comparatively fast progression scale. That should help you a lot, especially if you have access to the Spell Compendium.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-17, 09:40 AM
Pharaoh's Fist from Sandstorm is good. Being able to stun a whole crowd=marginally better tanking. Serpent Fang(I think) also from Sandstorm, does poison damage, I guess. AFB so can't really clarify right now.

lord_khaine
2007-07-17, 10:03 AM
i would recomend taking ability focus for stunning fist instead of flaming fist, in the end flaming fist doesnt do a lot for your unarmed damage, while the +2 bonus to the dc of your stunning fist can make quite a difference.

Keld Denar
2007-07-17, 10:05 AM
Person Man....wow, Battle Blessing looks insane. Any prereqs on it? Complete Champion is not a legal source in LG yet, because it just came out and hasn't been reviewed by the campaign Circle yet. The character won't be able to cast spells until 6 8th level or so anyway, which is about 3 years away since it is my 3rd character and won't be seeing as much play time as my primary and secondary characters. I also just started a wizard, and I'm excited to play him too. That looks like a good feat to pick up at level 9 though. Any other suggestions?

Stats are:
16
14
16
10
14
6

Feats so far are True Believer and Weapon Focus: Unarmed. I have 3 feats (2 fighter and one general) coming before I start taking levels of PT. I've already met all the prereqs for PT, though. I was thinking of taking Power Attack and Extra Stunning, and one other, maybe dodge to qualify for elusive target or karmic strike or titan fighting. Available sources are everything legal in LG (for a whole list, check out the LGCS on the rpga website under living campaigns and living greyhawk)

Darrin
2007-07-17, 10:19 AM
The feat is called Fiery Fist from the PHBII. It requires +8 BAB.


There's also the Sacred Flames ability of the Sacred Fist PrC, but it would take 4 levels to get +1d6 for 1/day, and another 4 levels to get up to 2/day. No way to increase #/day, unlike Fiery Fist.

There are at least two other methods for flaming fists:

1) Kensai PrC, enchant your fists with the Flaming enhancement.

2) Use enchanted gauntlets with the Flaming enhancement. (Note: some DMs don't allow this, and RAW is a little unclear on the issue.)

Other suggestions for enhancing unarmed damage:

* Desert Wind Dodge and Scorching Sirrocco (from ToB) add fire damage under certain conditions.

* Superior Unarmed Strike (also ToB) increases your monk level by 4 for determining unarmed damage.

* Shadow Blade (ToB again... gawd, how I love that book) - when in a Shadow Hand stance, add your Dex to Shadow Hand weapon damage (which includes unarmed strike). Note: If you can wait until after level 8 to dip into SwordSage, your IL will be 5 and you can pick up Assassin's Stance for +2d6 sneak damage as well.

Any particular reason you like Pious Templar? (The 3.0 Templar was better.) I'd consider taking Paladin levels instead. Better spells, mount, and with Ascetic Knight, your Paladin levels count towards unarmed damage, and your monk levels count towards Smite Evil. Add the Divine Might feat, and you can burn turning attempts to add Cha to your melee attacks.

Keld Denar
2007-07-17, 10:27 AM
Actually, spells are the same, as pious templar uses the paladin spell list. PT also gets faster spell progression than a paladin, which is important when multiclassing. The ability to turn undead to use Divine Might might have been good, but the character has the cha of the back end of a mule (dwarf + cha as dump stat due to MAD). All of the PTs abilities are tied to Wisdom, which with a 14, I could cast all paladin spells without needing wisdom bumping items which saves the neck slot for MORE CON!!!!! I took a look at sacred fist, which fits cleric monks better than paladin monks, and I think I'd be better off staying PT for full casting and full BAB.

Sadly, ToB is not legal in LG, so no point in listing any more things from there to make my heart lament with unrequitted pwnage.

Person_Man
2007-07-17, 10:55 AM
Feats so far are True Believer and Weapon Focus: Unarmed. I have 3 feats (2 fighter and one general) coming before I start taking levels of PT. I've already met all the prereqs for PT, though. I was thinking of taking Power Attack and Extra Stunning, and one other, maybe dodge to qualify for elusive target or karmic strike or titan fighting. Available sources are everything legal in LG (for a whole list, check out the LGCS on the rpga website under living campaigns and living greyhawk)

I repeat: Marginal static bonuses are usually a huge waste of a feat. Thus True Believer and Weapon focus are bad ideas, which is why I rarely suggest Pious Templar, because it requires them for entry. Dodge might be worth it for Elusive Target, but its not my favorite feat. Titan Fighting is just a huge waste.

Strong feats give you a special ability that you can't obtain through magic items, and/or scale with levels by providing extra attacks and/or being tied to BAB or class levels. I suggest Battle Blessing, Snap Kick, Touch of Golden Ice, Freezing the Lifeblood, Pressure Point Strike, and Knock-Down.

Power Attack would normally be a great idea, but you can't use a 2 handed weapon with Flurry, and you'll never get the traditional Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Pounce combo needed for any real high damage output. So I wouldn't suggest it for this build.

Battle Blessing is actually not that potent (unless you're an Archivist). Paladins and PrC that grant Paladin spells have a very limited number of spells per day. This feat and access to enough supplements basically just puts them on par Tome of Battle classes for a limited number of combats.

lord_khaine
2007-07-17, 11:07 AM
actualy the RAW about using gauntlets as a monk is clear, if you look in the FAQ it says its allowed.

as for feats i would recomend taking a look at improved natural attack as well.

Keld Denar
2007-07-17, 11:21 AM
Well, what would you do with a 3rd level dwarf monk then short of retiring him? I know monk isn't a good class, heck, it's kind of a bad class, but I've already invested 3 levels in it, so I might as well get some play out of him. I like the character, and don't mind if I'm not a 200 damage per round whirlwind of doomy doom. I'm looking for mechanical ways to increase his viability. Pious Templar seemed the most obvious way of the ways allowed in LG. A bonus of PT is the ways to avoid DR (will have ki strike 1 for magic, bless weapon for holy, and I heard there is a 3rd level paladin spell in Races of Stone or something that makes your weapon count as adamantine). Add to that some of the other fun stuff from PT like smite (even though the damage is kind of weak, but the attack bonus is transferable to PA), Mettle, and the bonus feats (one of which I'll probably takes as Melee Weapon Mastery, which I'd qualify for via free weapon spec from PT), and I think it's an ok class.

Any other thoughts?

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-17, 11:32 AM
The feat is called Fiery Fist from the PHBII. It requires +8 BAB.

However, feats that add marginal static bonuses are much weaker then feats that add scaled bonuses. Therefore you should almost never take them.

If you're looking for superior Monk feats, I suggest Touch of Golden Ice from the Book of Exalted Deeds (Evil creatures must Save vs. Poison on every attack) and/or Freezing the Lifeblood from Complete Warrior (turns Stunning Fist into a paralyzing attack that lasts 1d4+1 rounds).

Also, in most cases Monks are not just sub-optimal, but very poor at what they do. This is particularly true when it comes to damage dealing. Are you open to other non-Monk but Monk-like builds, such as a Swordsage or Fist of the Forest?

Just a quick thing for 'Fiery Fists', if you check the 'Special' section of the feat, it can be chosen as the monk's second level bonus feat instead of Combat Reflexes or Deflect arrows, bypassign the ridiculous +8 BaB prereq, as long as your level 1 bonus feat was Stunning Fist.

Tellah
2007-07-17, 11:38 AM
actualy the RAW about using gauntlets as a monk is clear, if you look in the FAQ it says its allowed.

as for feats i would recomend taking a look at improved natural attack as well.

Sure, but they aren't proficient. You'd need to multiclass or take a feat to make it worthwhile.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-17, 12:20 PM
Power Attack would normally be a great idea, but you can't use a 2 handed weapon with Flurry, and you'll never get the traditional Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Pounce combo needed for any real high damage output. So I wouldn't suggest it for this build.

About the only one would be using only one end of a Quarterstaff in a flurry.


Just a quick thing for 'Fiery Fists', if you check the 'Special' section of the feat, it can be chosen as the monk's second level bonus feat instead of Combat Reflexes or Deflect arrows, bypassign the ridiculous +8 BaB prereq, as long as your level 1 bonus feat was Stunning Fist.

Actually, the book says "8th level Bonus Feat", for whatever reason. I think most people drop it down to "6th level Bonus Feat".

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-17, 12:29 PM
Actually, the book says "8th level Bonus Feat", for whatever reason. I think most people drop it down to "6th level Bonus Feat".

Really? I thought Fiery Defense was the 8th level one.... I'll have to look that up again.

Lolzords
2007-07-17, 03:06 PM
I AM the law!


Sorry, couldn't resist.

CyberWyld
2007-07-17, 08:20 PM
I was talking to a friend of mine about pimping out my dwarf monk. He suggested going monk4/fighter2/pious templar9 which would put the character at 15th level for retirement. One thing he suggested though, was a feat that allows you to "burn" a stunning fist use to add 1d6 fire to all attacks in a round. That combined with improved natural attack and a 3rd level paladin spell that I also can't remember would make the unarmed damage scale nicely, and since the build is only missing 1 BAB, it would still be somewhat ok to power attack with at mid to high levels, esp if I can get armbands of might.

It's not a super optimized build, but it sounds like a lot of fun, and my monk is already 3rd level so I'm gonna give it a try. Could someone let me know what that feat is, what any potential prereqs are for it, and any general comments on the build? Thanks.

I suggest you get dragon mag. issue # 319. There is a PrC in there called the Dragon Shen. They get an ability called "4 hidden sounds" i believe that allows you to CHOOSE which type of magic dmg your fist will do. You burn a stunning fist use for the day each time and are able to sub 1D6 of Fire, Cold, Electricity or Acid dmg. Revan did this alot. :)



hasta

Keld Denar
2007-07-20, 12:53 PM
So, I finally looked at my complete warrior, and I couldn't find fiery fists. I also checked complete arcane and divine....anyone know where it is?

Lapak
2007-07-20, 01:00 PM
So, I finally looked at my complete warrior, and I couldn't find fiery fists. I also checked complete arcane and divine....anyone know where it is?As Person_Man and Dhavaer mentioned above, it's in the Player's Handbook II.

Draz74
2007-07-20, 01:03 PM
Power Attack would normally be a great idea, but you can't use a 2 handed weapon with Flurry,

Someone else already mentioned this, but I thought it looked easy to overlook and bore repeating: You CAN flurry with a a 2-H weapon, as long as it's a quarterstaff.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-20, 01:10 PM
Consider taking a level of cleric and the PRC Paladin variant for 3 levels which would give you cleric -3 spellcasting with that single cleric level and most of the paladin class abilities.

Consdier taking the Intuitive Attack feat for your unarmed strike along with Touch of Golden Ice from BoED.

Person_Man
2007-07-20, 01:18 PM
So, I finally looked at my complete warrior, and I couldn't find fiery fists. I also checked complete arcane and divine....anyone know where it is?

To quote myself:


The feat is called Fiery Fist from the PHBII.

Keld Denar
2007-07-20, 01:28 PM
Consider taking a level of cleric and the PRC Paladin variant for 3 levels which would give you cleric -3 spellcasting with that single cleric level and most of the paladin class abilities.

Consdier taking the Intuitive Attack feat for your unarmed strike along with Touch of Golden Ice from BoED.

BoED is straight out, as are most varients. What book is Intuitive Attack in? I've not heard of it.

Also, what change would improved natural attack have on a level 4 monks damage?

Quietus
2007-07-20, 02:01 PM
I figured fiery fists would be a good use of my 4ish stunning fist uses since the DC will be static because I'm not progressing full as monk (bout 15, not too great) and the way LG works, 4 will be enough uses per day in a typical combat anyway.

Actually, just for argument's sake, the DC isn't based off monk level, it's based off CHARACTER level. Your DC will continue to rise. Also, you'll get 1 use per 4 monk levels, plus 1 use for every 4 non-monk levels you have.

::Edit::


BoED is straight out, as are most varients. What book is Intuitive Attack in? I've not heard of it.

I'm afraid Intuitive Attack is in the BoED.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-20, 02:30 PM
Can you go with D20SRD content? If so, you might want to look at Psionic Fist. It progresses monk stuff, and gives you psionic powers to manifest.

Psionic Lion's Charge... you get to make a full attack on a charge. Get the most out of your flurry!

Dimension Slide... more maneuverability options

Empathic Transfer, Hostile... they hit you, you not only heal, but hit them back just as hard

Claws of Energy... your natural attacks do extra elemental damage

And that's not to mention things like Inertial Barrier to give you extra AC and Concealing Amorpha to give you concealment (and thus immunity to sneak attacks and crits...)

Alleine
2007-07-20, 02:51 PM
Also, what change would improved natural attack have on a level 4 monks damage?

Improved Natural Attack improves one natural attack by 1 size category, so unarmed strike would start dealing Large-sized damage.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-20, 03:18 PM
BoED is straight out, as are most varients. What book is Intuitive Attack in? I've not heard of it.

Also, what change would improved natural attack have on a level 4 monks damage?

Intuitive Attack uses Wisdom to hit with simple and natural weapons. It first turned up in BoED but I believe it has turned up in other source books since then.

Person_Man
2007-07-20, 03:25 PM
Claws of Energy... your natural attacks do extra elemental damage


Wrong. Claws of Energy and Claws of the Vampire specifically only work on a claw attack, not any natural weapon (such as unarmed strikes).

Although I'm partial to the King of Smack myself, and think taking Claws of the Beast is a lot better then trying to optimize unarmed damage in most cases anyway.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-20, 10:30 PM
Also, you'll get 1 use per 4 monk levels, plus 1 use for every 4 non-monk levels you have.

1 per Monk level, 1 per 4 non-Monk.

Quietus
2007-07-20, 11:13 PM
1 per Monk level, 1 per 4 non-Monk.

Correct, my fingers have a mind of their own today, thanks.\