How to be a Living Bomb? 3.PF

[Sheogoroth]

I'm a big fan of the flavorful idea of taking everyone in the vicinity down with you in a blaze of glory.

I've seen flavorful examples from tables, sort of a "cage for a demon" types, but nothing really RAW.

So how about it, is there anything that lets you explode or release some kind of death effect or summon some kind of monster on death?

Ghoul fever and Wendigo fever are the closest I've gotten so far.

Thanks!

[AvatarVecna]

There's a feat from Savage Species called "Final Strike":


Prerequisite
Acid, air, cold, earth, electricity, fire, or water subtype

Benefit
When you are killed (that is, when your hit points drop to -10 or lower), your body explodes in a final strike a blast of elemental destruction according to the table below. Everything within 60 feet is subject to the effect. Your final strike deals 1d6 points of damage per Hit Die, up to a maximum of 20d6. Each creature in the area may make a successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Hit Dice + your Con modifier) to halve the damage dealt. The blast also has a secondary effect, which can be reduced or negated (as shown on the table below) by a second successful save of the type indicated (same DC as the save against the primary damage).

Special
A final strike renders your corpse unsuitable for raise dead or resurrection spells. Only true resurrection, miracle, or wish can restore life.

Also, if you're looking for general "I explode!" spells, you might be interested in the "Erupt" spell, a minute-long casting time 9th lvl spell that deals 10*CL fire damage to everything within 100*CL ft, Fort half.

[flappeercraft]

Time for the Wizard's classic "I have a spell for that". In this case, the spell is Death Throes from SpC, 5th level spell for Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric. Deals 1d8 force damage per CL with no cap to all within 30ft, no save, no SR but destroys your body which makes revivng you harder. It lasts for 1 round/CL or until discharged.

[Vaern]

Time for the Wizard's classic "I have a spell for that". In this case, the spell is Death Throes from SpC, 5th level spell for Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric. Deals 1d8 force damage per CL with no cap to all within 30ft, no save, no SR but destroys your body which makes revivng you harder. It lasts for 1 round/CL or until discharged.
One of my friends once played a barbarian using a cactus race from one of his Dragon Magazines, and because he was a cactus I insisted on creating a cloak for him that was enchanted with this spell so he could explode like a creeper if he died.
IWhile crafting this cloak I expended the spell slot each day - and the DM allowed me to also expend daily uses of turn undead to maximize the effect with the Divine Metamagic feat. If he had died, it would have ended up dealing about 100 damage to anything around him.

[Geddy2112]

Also, if you're looking for general "I explode!" spells, you might be interested in the "Erupt" spell, a minute-long casting time 9th lvl spell that deals 10*CL fire damage to everything within 100*CL ft, Fort half.
Pathfinder has a less powerful version of this called detonate (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedPlayersGuide/spells/detonate.html)

[flappeercraft]

One of my friends once played a barbarian using a cactus race from one of his Dragon Magazines, and because he was a cactus I insisted on creating a cloak for him that was enchanted with this spell so he could explode like a creeper if he died.
IWhile crafting this cloak I expended the spell slot each day - and the DM allowed me to also expend daily uses of turn undead to maximize the effect with the Divine Metamagic feat. If he had died, it would have ended up dealing about 100 damage to anything around him.

Better than doing that, get 3 dominated commoners a 1 use item of CL 20 maximized death throes each and use it on themselves, then have them all stand within 30ft of each other and within 30ft of your target to kill, have one suicide quickly and the blast will cause 160 force damage to the target and the other commoners which will trigger another 2 blasts that also deal 160 each for a total of 480 force damage total no Save, no SR. Even better, minimal risk for the party if you pull this off on the BBEG or similar.

[SangoProduction]

So, is there a way to force a character that isn't yours to take feats? And is there a way to have those spells basically permanencied for all intents and purposes? That'd be expensive. A wand would probably work, but that takes preparation time.

Well, a custom magic item (perhaps a ring?) might work, and are probably reusable. What's the cheapest way (ignoring the caster level variable) to make those?

I am looking both towards Imp-losions and cat grenades. No doubt, some people will be more bother by one than the other, but they are both evil anyway.

[AvatarVecna]

So, is there a way to force a character that isn't yours to take feats? And is there a way to have those spells basically permanencied for all intents and purposes? That'd be expensive. A wand would probably work, but that takes preparation time.

Embrace the Dark Chaos turns one of the target's feat into an Abyssal Heritor feat, and Shun the Dark Chaos turns an Abyssal Heritor feat into any feat of the caster's choice - as long as it's legal for the target to take. Of course, both spells require a willing target...but sleeping creatures count as willing.

EDIT: Or gain a great deal of influence over them right before they "level up" and select a feat. Charm and Dominate could work for this.

[SangoProduction]

Embrace the Dark Chaos turns one of the target's feat into an Abyssal Heritor feat, and Shun the Dark Chaos turns an Abyssal Heritor feat into any feat of the caster's choice - as long as it's legal for the target to take. Of course, both spells require a willing target...but sleeping creatures count as willing.

EDIT: Or gain a great deal of influence over them right before they "level up" and select a feat. Charm and Dominate could work for this.

You know? I think this is the first time I've seen the Embrace / Shun combo actually be thematically appropriate for its goals.

Also, I forgot about that bit with the requiring subtypes for the Final Strike feat. Is there any easy way to apply those, or are we just going to be stuck with using things already ready for the feat?

[AvatarVecna]

You know? I think this is the first time I've seen the Embrace / Shun combo actually be thematically appropriate for its goals.

Also, I forgot about that bit with the requiring subtypes for the Final Strike feat. Is there any easy way to apply those, or are we just going to be stuck with using things already ready for the feat?

There's spells out there that can give the appropriate subtype to a creature, and tons of templates that can do it, but getting them applied to a creature is difficult to do after that creature's been born. Honestly, your best bet is to use summon/calling/Gate/Planar Ally/Planar Binding spells to call a creature with the appropriate subtype, use the Heroics+DCS to give them Final Strike, and then send them on their way.

Of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't point you towards Ben, The Rat That Won't Die (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21400457&postcount=112). Short version: the PCs killed some CR 2 Fire Rat back in their first dungeon, but its spirit wants revenge! Now, not only does it give them hell as ghost, and explode in a fireball when it dies, but it comes back later to haunt them, because it won't fully die until it gets its revenge! This little ****er has to be soul bound to keep him from returning! :smallbiggrin:

Doing something similar (Final Strike+Ghost in some fashion) should yield similarly awesome results, regardless of actual build.

[gorfnab]

The Emerald Immolation, 10th level ability, of the Jade Phoenix Mage (ToB) prestige class allows a character to explode once per week. It combos very nicely with the spells Transcend Mortality.

[Calthropstu]

Contingency: "When I die."

Enuff said.

[Stealth Marmot]

Contingency: "When I die."

Enuff said.

I love the implications that death is pretty much expected rather than "IF I die..."

[Tohsaka Rin]

Am I the only one who expected someone to suggest playing an animated bomb?

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/0/06/Bob-omb.png

Surely I'm not the only one whose mind went there.

[AvatarVecna]

I love the implications that death is pretty much expected rather than "IF I die..."

{Scrubbed}

[Vogie]

One of my friends once played a barbarian using a cactus race from one of his Dragon Magazines, and because he was a cactus I insisted on creating a cloak for him that was enchanted with this spell so he could explode like a creeper if he died.
IWhile crafting this cloak I expended the spell slot each day - and the DM allowed me to also expend daily uses of turn undead to maximize the effect with the Divine Metamagic feat. If he had died, it would have ended up dealing about 100 damage to anything around him.

Add five levels of Reincarnation Druid, and he could explode once a week.

[John Longarrow]

I am looking both towards Imp-losions and cat grenades. No doubt, some people will be more bother by one than the other, but they are both evil anyway.

For cat grenades, PAO something frikking HUGE into a cat. Toss cat. Kill cat. PAO ends, creature returns to its original size. Bonus points if you can do this while cat is traveling through the air at target.

Dragon: "So you pathetic mortals dare face me? And your throwing a treat at me? Fools, you will OH CRAP WHAT IS THAT???"

Dragon now crushed under purple worm.

[zergling.exe]

For cat grenades, PAO something frikking HUGE into a cat. Toss cat. Kill cat. PAO ends, creature returns to its original size. Bonus points if you can do this while cat is traveling through the air at target.

Dragon: "So you pathetic mortals dare face me? And your throwing a treat at me? Fools, you will OH CRAP WHAT IS THAT???"

Dragon now crushed under purple worm.

Purple Worms are a bad example, due to their ridiculously low density (less than styrofoam!). And it would probably be better to let the dragon eat the cat in that scenario, and watch it's guts blow out from the purple worm returning to normal size. :smallcool:

[daremetoidareyo]

Sentry ooze living spell explosive spell fireball with the death throes feat?

[Red Fel]

Why wait until you die? In my Collateral Damage Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361628-Collateral-Damage-Man) thread, one brilliant poster came up with an idea which I dubbed "Body of the Fun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361628-Collateral-Damage-Man/page2&p=17769136#post17769136)" - basically, the target of an elaborate "prank" is subject to four metamagicked copies of Body of the Sun, a spell which ordinarily causes the subject to radiate fire in a five-foot radius. This version, thanks to extensive metamagic, is an invisible empowered explosive maximized repeat widened spell, substituted and admixtured to deal double acid damage, and sculpted to widen its radius further. For the next 24 hours, the subject is surrounded by four 40-foot wide emanations, dealing an average of 54 acid damage each to everything within range, and causing everything in range that fails the save to be violently ejected (thanks to Explosive Spell metamagic).

In theory, the user could also cast this combo on himself.

[Mehangel]

If you are okay with 3rd Party, the Destroyer's Handbook (Destruction sphere expansion for Spheres of Power) has an incantation called 'Walking Bomb' which bestows a template with the same name to a willing or helpless creature.

[Calthropstu]

{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}

Btw, you CAN get into a wizard's demiplane with plane shift. It just needs to be done as a spell like ability. No focus required. Nothing a good planar binding can't get you.

Nothing I did in that scenario I presented can't be done with a raw work around. As for the super dagger, that too can be legitimized with a 50% restriction addition.

{Scrubbed}

[AvatarVecna]

pfffft, I didn't "make **** up"

Btw, you CAN get into a wizard's demiplane with plane shift. It just needs to be done as a spell like ability. No focus required. Nothing a good planar binding can't get you.

Nothing I did in that scenario I presented can't be done with a raw work around. As for the super dagger, that too can be legitimized with a 50% restriction addition.

So I would appreciate you not being an ass.

Spell-like only gets you past the weird material component, you never addressed how you were getting around the Forbiddance. Well, you explained how you did it in that particular scenario: the wizard let you in. You used this scenario as proof that a demiplane wasn't impregnable, but all it proved is that a wizard can be defeated if they hand you that method on a silver platter.

Feel free to ignore this like you always do, of course.

EDIT: Also, that the super-dagger could have been created by an epic crafter, yes, but because the base price was still over 200000, it was still outside what the non-epic crafter could've made. It also doesn't change the fact that you only made it a personally-crafted dagger after people pointed out that you couldn't have legitimately purchased it like you said you did.

[Calthropstu]

Spell-like only gets you past the weird material component, you never addressed how you were getting around the Forbiddance. Well, you explained how you did it in that particular scenario: the wizard let you in. You used this scenario as proof that a demiplane wasn't impregnable, but all it proved is that a wizard can be defeated if they hand you that method on a silver platter.

Feel free to ignore this like you always do, of course.

He didn't HAVE forbiddance up actually. It's a cleric spell not a wizard spell.

As for getting past it: Spell resistance:yes.

Spell immunity: It's a thing.

Edit to your edit: It also doesn't change the fact this incident took place before the epic handbook was printed so all the rules you are referencing didn't apply. The only rule I broke was the amount of treasure suggested for each category: and I have always blatantly ignored wbl.

[AvatarVecna]

He didn't HAVE forbiddance up actually. It's a cleric spell not a wizard spell.

As for getting past it: Spell resistance:yes.

Spell immunity: It's a thing.

He didn't have it, but it was shown multiple times that he could easily get it via Wish and Shapechange. And that doesn't change the fact that you still only got it because he let you.

Also, you should probably actually read the abilities involved: Immunity to Magic means that any spell affecting you that allows SR fails; Forbiddance doesn't affect the creature, it affects the location, so you still can't get in without his permission or just giving up and declaring DM fiat.

EDIT: And this is why I need to stop using the "show this post" button. :smallannoyed: Getting dragged back into this discussion is a waste of time when it was already hashed out so much in the original thread.

[Calthropstu]

He didn't have it, but it was shown multiple times that he could easily get it via Wish and Shapechange.

Also, you should probably actually read the abilities involved: Immunity to Magic means that any spell affecting you that allows SR fails; Forbiddance doesn't affect the creature, it affects the location, so you can still go **** yourself.

Not immunity to magic, immunity to a specific spell. The fact that forbiddance has "spell resistance:yes" and not "see text" means spell resistance may be applied against every portion of the spell: including the teleportation barring. I think YOU are the one who needs to do some reading.

And why the hell are you picking a fight with me anyways?

[AvatarVecna]

Not immunity to magic, immunity to a specific spell. The fact that forbiddance has "spell resistance:yes" and not "see text" means spell resistance may be applied against every portion of the spell: including the teleportation barring. I think YOU are the one who needs to do some reading.

And why the hell are you picking a fight with me anyways?

Spell Immunity is the exact same effect as Immunity To Magic, except it's only for a specific spell: it makes you immune to the parts of Forbiddance that affect you, what your missing is that Forbiddance doesn't effect you at all, it affect dimensional travel methods used by you.

I was making a joke referencing a long-dead thread about a DM who all-but fiat'd their way into a wizard's demiplane when they could've just dropped all pretense and actually fully fiat'd their way in. You decided that you needed to take offense and start re-arguing points that have long since been dealt with and buried.

EDIT: Also, I seem to recall from that thread that when others brought up different methods for keeping the person out besides Forbiddance (Wish replicating the effects of a Forbiddance, as an example), you claimed Spell Immunity to that as well, despite being incapable of being immune to both Forbiddance and Wish via Spell Immunity.

EDIT: The problem with that thread way back when was that you tried to solve an OOC problem ("this player is using abilities I consider too powerful to completely circumvent the game!") with an IC solution ("I'll show that mixmaxing bastard, I'll out minmax him!") that had a lot of flaws that you only attempted to cover after people started pointing them out.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Drop it, both of you. Stay on topic for the thread.

[AvatarVecna]

As a completely separate point that actually relates to this thread as anything other than a joke reference, I like the Contingency trigger you suggested: in higher-op play, intentionally killing yourself can be a surprisingly valid tactic (as this thread has demonstrated).

EDIT: Yes sir, ninja-moderator! *salutes*

Also EDIT, but not EDIT 2: Problem with using Contingency is the level limit; unless you're seriously abusing metamagic reduction, you're probably not gonna end up with a spell powerful enough to warrant using up your Contingency slot on a final "screw you" blasting spell (since blasting isn't super-optimal). Craft Contingent Spell solves both the level issue and the contingency limit issue, though, so that's cool...and using Contingency would let you get around the long casting time of some of the more powerful blasting spells like Erupt or AftS.

[Calthropstu]

Agreed moderator: this conversation has no bearing on the thread topic. I would appreciate it Vecna, if you would keep your "joking comments" regarding me to yourself. We will not agree on any of the issues discussed, and I will not take kindly to being derided in any manner very kindly.

As for the actual topic: I still maintain the best way to do this is with a contingency effect, however alternatives can be found with items such as the retributive strike of the staff of the magi.

Other examples could be shapeshifting into a balor which automatically explodes upon death (or other creature which does so). Another great way to cause a firey death is to have a large bag filled necklace of fireballs. Set off a fireball, willingly fail the save and all the necklaces save or explode. Expensive, but if you're going out with a bang, I doubt you care about gold. (Ideally you'd have very good fire resistance and this wouldn't actually kill you though)

Other ways to do this could probably be found in other ways. I have never looked at the compendium.

[Jack_Simth]

Why wait until you die? In my Collateral Damage Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361628-Collateral-Damage-Man) thread, one brilliant poster came up with an idea which I dubbed "Body of the Fun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361628-Collateral-Damage-Man/page2&p=17769136#post17769136)" - basically, the target of an elaborate "prank" is subject to four metamagicked copies of Body of the Sun, a spell which ordinarily causes the subject to radiate fire in a five-foot radius. This version, thanks to extensive metamagic, is an invisible empowered explosive maximized repeat widened spell, substituted and admixtured to deal double acid damage, and sculpted to widen its radius further. For the next 24 hours, the subject is surrounded by four 40-foot wide emanations, dealing an average of 54 acid damage each to everything within range, and causing everything in range that fails the save to be violently ejected (thanks to Explosive Spell metamagic).

In theory, the user could also cast this combo on himself.

Nah. You put it on a perpetually flying creature under your control and use Extraordinary Spell Aim or similar to exclude yourself. That way you can simply put it away when killing and/or shoving away everything that wanders too close becomes inconvenient.

[Calthropstu]

As a completely separate point that actually relates to this thread as anything other than a joke reference, I like the Contingency trigger you suggested: in higher-op play, intentionally killing yourself can be a surprisingly valid tactic (as this thread has demonstrated).

EDIT: Yes sir, ninja-moderator! *salutes*

Also EDIT, but not EDIT 2: Problem with using Contingency is the level limit; unless you're seriously abusing metamagic reduction, you're probably not gonna end up with a spell powerful enough to warrant using up your Contingency slot on a final "screw you" blasting spell (since blasting isn't super-optimal). Craft Contingent Spell solves both the level issue and the contingency limit issue, though, so that's cool...and using Contingency would let you get around the long casting time of some of the more powerful blasting spells like Erupt or AftS.

True, being restricted to 6th level spells is an issue, but you could probably pull off some very nice damage. Even a maximized fireball would be fairly nice. Most death contingencies involve teleporting away and avoiding death entirely, but if someone wants to "go out in a blaze of glory..." Yes, craft contingent spell would be greatly more powerful, a "on death: meteor swarm" would be quite impressive (if useless against most things that would kill you at that level) and if you want to get into major abuses of metamagic, you could hurl some serious on death firepower. Wheee maximized empowered 5k damage of suck it. (Note, I have never, and will never, allowed craft contingent spell in any of my games)


edit: wait a second: PF? There is no craft contingent spell for PF and metamagic abuses are greatly diminished so a lot less potential here. Still, the necklace of fireballs trick is undiminished, and there is still contingency which will allow you to set up some decent damage. You can also still set up a maximized empowered fireball with some metamagic rods though. But 9th level contingent spells are way beyond reach.

Edit 2: If you go mythic you can add additional spells onto it, so with some metamagic and some serious forethought (as well as other mythic spells) you can blast someone with say 6x mythic augment maximized empowered disintegrate boosted with mythic special abilities for an obnoxious up to 8-24k damage (depending on number of crits, 8k minimum assuming failed saves 1800 minimum if they make all their saves)

[AvatarVecna]

Agreed moderator: this conversation has no bearing on the thread topic. I would appreciate it Vecna, if you would keep your "joking comments" regarding me to yourself. We will not agree on any of the issues discussed, and I will not take kindly to being derided in any manner very kindly.

Wasn't aware it would be a problem. When I make jokes about you in the future, I'll be sure to spoiler them with trigger warnings.


Other examples could be shapeshifting into a balor which automatically explodes upon death (or other creature which does so). Another great way to cause a firey death is to have a large bag filled necklace of fireballs. Set off a fireball, willingly fail the save and all the necklaces save or explode. Expensive, but if you're going out with a bang, I doubt you care about gold. (Ideally you'd have very good fire resistance and this wouldn't actually kill you though)

The Balor plan is decent as far as a Shapechange spell goes; Balors are pretty awesome forms anyway, and the explosion upon death is a good possibility. Plus, Shapechange lets you change every round, so you could do this right before you get close to dying.

I don't think I like the Necklace Of Fireballs plan, though: it's not terrible, exactly, but rather the problem is that most characters will either be too low-level to afford to spend 8700 gp on an "if I die" plan, or they're high-level enough that they can afford/pull off a more damaging "screw you" attack than a handful of fireballs going off simultaneously (the area and damage and damage type aren't particularly threatening past a certain point, for various reasons).


Other ways to do this could probably be found in other ways. I have never looked at the compendium.

I see. :smalltongue:


True, being restricted to 6th level spells is an issue, but you could probably pull off some very nice damage. Even a maximized fireball would be fairly nice. Most death contingencies involve teleporting away and avoiding death entirely, but if someone wants to "go out in a blaze of glory..." Yes, craft contingent spell would be greatly more powerful, a "on death: meteor swarm" would be quite impressive (if useless against most things that would kill you at that level) and if you want to get into major abuses of metamagic, you could hurl some serious on death firepower. Wheee maximized empowered 5k damage of suck it. (Note, I have never, and will never, allowed craft contingent spell in any of my games)

I think Erupt is more of what a 9th lvl blasting spell should look like than Meteor Swarm, to be honest. Can't be Maximized or Empowered, but 10*CL damage is fantastic, particularly for that area. It's a blasting spell that makes me think "You know, what? I would consider using this instead of performing literal Miracles." Getting it for your Wizard requires some shenanigans, but it's doable.

quote]edit: wait a second: PF? There is no craft contingent spell for PF and metamagic abuses are greatly diminished so a lot less potential here. Still, the necklace of fireballs trick is undiminished, and there is still contingency which will allow you to set up some decent damage. You can also still set up a maximized empowered fireball with some metamagic rods though. But 9th level contingent spells are way beyond reach.[/QUOTE]

Admittedly, most of the more problematic metamagic abuses are gone (Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix), but in their place is a metamagic abuse that's pretty on-par: Sacred Geometry. What a stupid ****ing feat. It would actually be more fun and honest if it just said "choose two metamagic feats; these feats automatically apply to every spell if that spell is legal for them to be applied to", but no, you've gotta roll 10+ d6s and then arrange them and some equation symbols in a way that they get one of the magic numbers. It's either a monumental waste of time for everybody at the table every time your turn comes up if you do everything by hand, or it's guaranteed metamagic if you use the app somebody made for easily calculating it. Ugh...

[Calthropstu]

The necklace plan is not a "1 necklace of fireballs." It is dozens. You can only wear one necklace... but it says "if worn or CARRIED" it will explode if you fail a saving throw with the fire descriptor. Last I knew, there was no limit to how many you can carry.

So 100 necklace of fireballs going off at once is a pretty decent high level screw you. Even creatures with evasion will feel that.

[AvatarVecna]

The necklace plan is not a "1 necklace of fireballs." It is dozens. You can only wear one necklace... but it says "if worn or CARRIED" it will explode if you fail a saving throw with the fire descriptor. Last I knew, there was no limit to how many you can carry.

So 100 necklace of fireballs going off at once is a pretty decent high level screw you. Even creatures with evasion will feel that.

Well, no limit other than weight, but that's pretty negligible by the time you can afford to throw 870000 gp down on a "screw you". The problem is that the more of these you can afford to have at all (let alone in addition to whatever gear you use to actually fight/survive fights), the more your enemies can afford the defenses. To make a very long story short, this isn't really gonna solve anything at any level where you could realistically afford this stuff (the 870k you'd need is outside PC lvl 20 WBL): between Spell Resistance, Fire Resistance, save boosting, evasion, potentially improved evasion, potential incoporeality, and super-cheesy battlefield tactics like "not being within 20 ft of the dude you're shooting at" (which isn't super-difficult, even when you're limited to thrown weapons and close range spells), you'll be hard-pressed to take down high lvl PCs with a pile of Fireball Necklaces. Honestly, the easiest defense against this tactic, both in how commonly it would be employed, how commonly it would accidentally get used, and how little money it costs, is that super-cheesy battlefield tactic of "non-melee combat". You'll do a good job taking out that melee guy though...well, unless he's a Rogue or a Monk.

Of course, it adds insult to injury that, in the case that you actually spend 870000 gold pieces on this revenge plot rather than actual gear to defend yourself, and you actually manage to kill a high-level PC with this plan because they wandered into melee with you while possessing a poor Reflex save, no SR, no Fire Resistance, and no Evasion...the PCs will counter your 870000 gold pieces with 5000 of their own, maybe 25000 if they feel like splurging. Yay?

[Gruftzwerg]

The Emerald Immolation, 10th level ability, of the Jade Phoenix Mage (ToB) prestige class allows a character to explode once per week. It combos very nicely with the spells Transcend Mortality.

yeah Jade Phoenix Mage is the way to go.

for max cheese:

- "Body outside Body" Wu Jen Spell (either take Wu Jen or Wyrm Wizard 2 to get access to the spell)

- Archmage 1 to get "BoB" as SLA

Your clones can use your class abilities and your SLAs..^^ if you ever wanted to start a nuclear war by your own... well I guess your are well prepared for that ;)
Produce unlimited amount of clones and .... "rocks falls everything dies" I guess..

A very powerful build, but still won't "break the game" like "BoBaFeat" (since similar cheese is used in the builds).

PS: dunno if PF restricts any of these. don't play Pf myself and have lil knowledge about it ;)

[Jack_Simth]

Your clones can use your class abilities and your SLAsThis is actually debatable - BOB clones specifically can't cast spells, and Spell Like Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) include the general clause "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell" as part of the description. If something forbids you from casting spells, it's possible (not certain, but possible) that the general definition of spell-like abilities means that spell-like abilities are also forbidden. In which case, you need to get a feat from Savage Species or a web enhancement PrC into the build for this to work.

[Calthropstu]

Well, no limit other than weight, but that's pretty negligible by the time you can afford to throw 870000 gp down on a "screw you". The problem is that the more of these you can afford to have at all (let alone in addition to whatever gear you use to actually fight/survive fights), the more your enemies can afford the defenses. To make a very long story short, this isn't really gonna solve anything at any level where you could realistically afford this stuff (the 870k you'd need is outside PC lvl 20 WBL): between Spell Resistance, Fire Resistance, save boosting, evasion, potentially improved evasion, potential incoporeality, and super-cheesy battlefield tactics like "not being within 20 ft of the dude you're shooting at" (which isn't super-difficult, even when you're limited to thrown weapons and close range spells), you'll be hard-pressed to take down high lvl PCs with a pile of Fireball Necklaces. Honestly, the easiest defense against this tactic, both in how commonly it would be employed, how commonly it would accidentally get used, and how little money it costs, is that super-cheesy battlefield tactic of "non-melee combat". You'll do a good job taking out that melee guy though...well, unless he's a Rogue or a Monk.

Of course, it adds insult to injury that, in the case that you actually spend 870000 gold pieces on this revenge plot rather than actual gear to defend yourself, and you actually manage to kill a high-level PC with this plan because they wandered into melee with you while possessing a poor Reflex save, no SR, no Fire Resistance, and no Evasion...the PCs will counter your 870000 gold pieces with 5000 of their own, maybe 25000 if they feel like splurging. Yay?

Evasion won't work. You're making HUNDREDS of saves... even if you only need a 1 to make it, you're still going to eat a few hundred damage, enough to kill all but the beefiest of characters. Fire resistance and immunity and very high spell resistance (needs to be over 30) is the ONLY method of surviving this. Well, maybe a combination of high SR (25+) AND evasion could pull through it, but I wouldn't count on it. We're talking 900 fireballs each with multiple dice each. 900/20 = 45 fireballs: taking an equal spread from the types, we arrive at about 270d6 points of damage for a grand total of just under 1k damage. Half that from evasion and you're looking at 500 damage: that is AFTER factoring in a "only fails on nat 1" reflex save.

ONLY serious fire resistance, fire immunity and SR 31+ is going to survive this.

Now yes, fire resistance is quite common, but you would be surprised at how many PCs neglect it, and if your GM is sticking to wealth by level, well these ARE expendable items. And I doubt anyone but PCs would try this anyways, so it would be going against monsters. And many many many monsters even at the highest levels are susceptible to this.

Also: Crafting. You can cut the cost in half. Yeah, it costs XP in 3.5, but not pathfinder.

Also Also: If you're crafting it, you can custom build it to be any element you want. So you can target the weaknesses of a specific monster.

Also Also Also: Most GMs do not strictly adhere to wealth by level. I blatantly ignore it when I GM, unless my PCs are woefully underequipped.

Also Also Also Also: They can be resold if the idea is not needed.

Also Also Also Also Also: I just wanted to continue my also chain.

[The Glyphstone]

Improved Evasion would though, if you combine it with a Resist Energy spell of at least CL11th for Resist Fire 30.



Improved Evasion (Ex)

This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

[Calthropstu]

Improved Evasion would though, if you combine it with a Resist Energy spell of at least CL11th for Resist Fire 30.

Improved evasion was what I was calculating. Evasion would take 1k damage, improved evasion would take 500. Resist fire 30, by itself, would likely be enough to survive though since even with 10d6 the average damage is only 35, and there's only 100 of those: meaning if you only need a nat 1 to fail, you're only going to take 50 damage on average. However, the monster would need to know it was coming and prepare against fire: which could easily be removed during the fight. Remember this is your final hurrah, the attack of last resort not your go to attack. This is what you pull out of your ass as your "If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!" Run in, drop one of the gems, deliberately fail the saving throw and let the chain reaction occur. Targeting your opponents defenses to fire before it got to that level would be a given I assume.

Alternatively, A gm could use this against high level PCs after dominating one of the PCs. Tell the PC "You will now be protected from fire. You now have 100 necklace of fireballs, and you are going to set them all off. You will survive because you are protected from fire but your companions will all die." Go the inn, set off the trap and let's see how well it works when the PCs have no reason to suspect it's coming. Of course, if they DO manage to prevent it, they have a sweet treasure hoard :D

[The Glyphstone]

Improved evasion was what I was calculating. Evasion would take 1k damage, improved evasion would take 500. Resist fire 30, by itself, would likely be enough to survive though since even with 10d6 the average damage is only 35, and there's only 100 of those: meaning if you only need a nat 1 to fail, you're only going to take 50 damage on average. However, the monster would need to know it was coming and prepare against fire: which could easily be removed during the fight. Remember this is your final hurrah, the attack of last resort not your go to attack. This is what you pull out of your ass as your "If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!" Run in, drop one of the gems, deliberately fail the saving throw and let the chain reaction occur. Targeting your opponents defenses to fire before it got to that level would be a given I assume.

Alternatively, A gm could use this against high level PCs after dominating one of the PCs. Tell the PC "You will now be protected from fire. You now have 100 necklace of fireballs, and you are going to set them all off. You will survive because you are protected from fire but your companions will all die." Go the inn, set off the trap and let's see how well it works when the PCs have no reason to suspect it's coming. Of course, if they DO manage to prevent it, they have a sweet treasure hoard :D

That's not how the damage would be allocated, though. When you detonate a fully charged Type VII Necklace of Fireballs, you don't deal one single blast of 58d6 damage, Reflex for Half. You deal 9 separate instances of damage at 10d6, 9d6, 9d6, 7d6, 7d6, 5d6, 5d6, 3d6, and 3d6, all of which get their own Reflex saves. One hundred necklaces will just mean more individual instances of damage, and when the largest increment is 10d6 (maximum possible 60), Imp. Evasion will halve that to 30 even on a failed save, and Resist Energy will drop it to 0.

Sure, it works as a suicide tactic if you dispel any magical resistances they have active, and you're unlikely to fight an endless army of 11th level rogues with Resist Energy wands, but for the amount of money you are spending, it's hideously inefficient. And as a last hurrah it's still horrifically risky, because all it takes is one failed saving throw earlier in the fight you didn't intentionally fail to TPK yourself.

[Calthropstu]

That's not how the damage would be allocated, though. When you detonate a fully charged Type VII Necklace of Fireballs, you don't deal one single blast of 58d6 damage, Reflex for Half. You deal 9 separate instances of damage at 10d6, 9d6, 9d6, 7d6, 7d6, 5d6, 5d6, 3d6, and 3d6, all of which get their own Reflex saves. One hundred necklaces will just mean more individual instances of damage, and when the largest increment is 10d6 (maximum possible 60), Imp. Evasion will halve that to 30 even on a failed save, and Resist Energy will drop it to 0.

Sure, it works as a suicide tactic if you dispel any magical resistances they have active, and you're unlikely to fight an endless army of 11th level rogues with Resist Energy wands, but for the amount of money you are spending, it's hideously inefficient. And as a last hurrah it's still horrifically risky, because all it takes is one failed saving throw earlier in the fight you didn't intentionally fail to TPK yourself.

Yeah, all of that was taken into consideration, you will notice that I said "hundreds of saves" et al. And yes, there is the danger of ultimate suck. "The enemy mage casts fireball!" ... crap.

And fire resistance wouldn't prevent the chain reaction either: you just have to fail the save against the fire effect.

[The Glyphstone]

My point was that the combination of Imp. Evasion and Resist 30+ means that you could be subject to one Necklace, a hundred Necklaces, or a million Necklaces, but you'll walk out of the blast radius with guaranteed 0 damage.

So it's actually a fairly good tactic for a rogue to use if wealth is no object (so basically NPCs, there are far better things a PCs can do with that money). He can stealth up to his target(s), then set off his bomb and walk away from the crater whistling. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone else though.

[JNAProductions]

Fire Resistance prevents it from doing anything. If they have Fire Resistance 60 (30 with Improved Evasion) they literally CANNOT take damage from this bomb. And, since the average damage is MUCH LOWER, Resist Energy (cast by an 11+ level caster) will neuter it hard.

Assuming they fail EVERY save, each necklace will deal, on average...

6.5 points of damage.

That's not much.

[The Glyphstone]

Fire Resistance prevents it from doing anything. If they have Fire Resistance 60 (30 with Improved Evasion) they literally CANNOT take damage from this bomb. And, since the average damage is MUCH LOWER, Resist Energy (cast by an 11+ level caster) will neuter it hard.

Assuming they fail EVERY save, each necklace will deal, on average...

6.5 points of damage.

That's not much.

Yeah, but if you spend 870,000 gold to buy 100 necklaces, that's 650 damage! That'll kill a lot of things.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, but if you spend 870,000 gold to buy 100 necklaces, that's 650 damage! That'll kill a lot of things.

Cool. That's... Actually, I don't know what WBL that is. It's higher than 20th, I know that much.

So if you spend the entirety of your wealth AND some of a friend's wealth on Necklaces of Fireball and happen to be up against something not immune to fire and doesn't have improved evasion and does fail all saves and doesn't just have poop-tons of HP/immunity to death by HP damage... Yeah, you could kill something. Once.

[The Glyphstone]

Cool. That's... Actually, I don't know what WBL that is. It's higher than 20th, I know that much.

So if you spend the entirety of your wealth AND some of a friend's wealth on Necklaces of Fireball and happen to be up against something not immune to fire and doesn't have improved evasion and does fail all saves and doesn't just have poop-tons of HP/immunity to death by HP damage... Yeah, you could kill something. Once.

I never said it was practical, I was just pointing out the math.

[AvatarVecna]

Evasion won't work. You're making HUNDREDS of saves... even if you only need a 1 to make it, you're still going to eat a few hundred damage, enough to kill all but the beefiest of characters. Fire resistance and immunity and very high spell resistance (needs to be over 30) is the ONLY method of surviving this. Well, maybe a combination of high SR (25+) AND evasion could pull through it, but I wouldn't count on it. We're talking 900 fireballs each with multiple dice each. 900/20 = 45 fireballs: taking an equal spread from the types, we arrive at about 270d6 points of damage for a grand total of just under 1k damage. Half that from evasion and you're looking at 500 damage: that is AFTER factoring in a "only fails on nat 1" reflex save.

ONLY serious fire resistance, fire immunity and SR 31+ is going to survive this.

And the whole distance problem that you're still ignoring. :smallwink: A tactic that screws over non-reach-focused melee PCs isn't gonna be particularly impressive at the levels you can afford this.


Now yes, fire resistance is quite common, but you would be surprised at how many PCs neglect it, and if your GM is sticking to wealth by level, well these ARE expendable items. And I doubt anyone but PCs would try this anyways, so it would be going against monsters. And many many many monsters even at the highest levels are susceptible to this.

My home group, back when we played 3.5 and PF much more often, rarely prepared fire resistance outright...but we did prepare a lot of divinations, and use those to figure out how to deal with the adventure ahead of us. At that point, it comes to the party's attention that somebody is buying up all the Necklaces of Fireball, and the Cleric 11 prepares a few 3rd lvl Mass Resist Energy before DMM Persisting it to last all day (or using a lesser Extend Rod to get 220 minutes per casting out of it, if you wanna reply "but in Pathfinder..."). As it happens, the time we ran into this problem wasn't a dude using a ton of Necklaces like you, but rather an NPC Crossblooded Sorcerer focused around pyromancy abusing Sacred Geometry to toss around super-metamagick'd Fireballs; Fire Resistance 30 took a lot of the wind out of his sails, and while he couldn't apply quite the damage numbers your plan does here, his methods actually dealt damage to the party despite that Fire Resistance (due to all his spells being Intensified and Empowered), while most of the Fireballs you're throwing out will completely fizzle at best.

This story serves a dual purpose: showing that NPCs using this kind of thing happen (as long as your DM isn't coddling you and just tosses monsters instead of NPCs at you), and that PCs using Fire Resistance is still a thing that can happen without investing a great deal of money into this.

A final point about PCs being the only ones to use this tactic: similar tactics, perhaps, but not this specific one. Limited-use items aren't super-good; even if I was gonna spend money on something I could only use a finite number of times, I'd take a Wand of Fireballs over a Necklace Of Fireballs, since the only reason to want the latter is if for some reason I'm counting on dying...and generally, PCs count on living (or at least if they die, coming back to life shortly and continuing to ). PCs will spend their wealth on things that make it easier to survive, not harder (and certainly not on things that are most valuable if you die in a specific way). No, no, no, this tactic of throwing all your money into expendable items that blow themselves up upon your death is purely an NPC tactic. Not only are NPCs much more likely to die, but if you used this tactic both sides of the table would be actively rooting for their death.


Also: Crafting. You can cut the cost in half. Yeah, it costs XP in 3.5, but not pathfinder.

Crafting makes it easier, but not by much. Even with PF's higher WBL, the absolute earliest you'll be bringing this plan online is PC 18 (rather than the PC 20 you'd need without crafting them yourself *golf clap*).


Also Also: If you're crafting it, you can custom build it to be any element you want. So you can target the weaknesses of a specific monster.

Sure, if you allow custom items, unless I'm missing an esoteric crafting rule declaring that that items replicating energy spells can have their damage changed to another damage type at no additional cost during crafting. Of course, if we're allowing custom items, and have as loose a budget as the next quote indicates we would, there's a lot of nasty things we could do with piles of money and no oversight. If nothing else, at least Widen the fireballs so that you can get all the melee guys rather than just the non-reach melee-ers. :smalltongue:


Also Also Also: Most GMs do not strictly adhere to wealth by level. I blatantly ignore it when I GM, unless my PCs are woefully underequipped.

I've yet to play with a DM, 3.5 or PF, that didn't pretty strictly adhere to WBL, or at most no more than 10% away from it in one direction or the other, but I suppose I'll take your anecdotal word for it. :smallwink:

Of course, you do realize that "it works better than the rules say it would work because I can DM fiat it to work better" is not a strong argument of support. :smalltongue:


Also Also Also Also: They can be resold if the idea is not needed.

Which has the PCs either losing money if they bought then, breaking even on money but losing on time if they crafted the necklaces themselves, or actually managing to make money if you've allowed crafting reduction to lower the price to create a necklace below the price they could sell it at...but since you've indicated you don't have an issue with PCs having whatever wealth they want, I guess that wouldn't be an issue for you?

EDIT: just realized another big problem with PCs using this tactic against monsters if your DM isn't letting you change up the damage type: let's say you did invest all your money into this plan, and you go up against creatures that are likely to trigger your cunning trap - that is to say, creatures that force you to make saves against fire effects.

...aren't most of those monsters going to be immune to fire? I mean, there's probably some esoteric creature that has lots of fire attacks but no fire immunity/resistance, but most of the times you're saving against a magical fire effect, it's gonna be generated by something like a red dragon, or a salamander, or a fire elemental. Now, there's metamagics that can get around that little hurdle, but that's getting back into that "custom item" gray area again.

EDIt 2: And ninja'd by JNA again, he's on a roll tonight. :smalltongue:

[JNAProductions]

So, as AV points out, these necklaces activate when you fail a save against a magical fire effect. What's a very common one? Dragon breath. What are dragons that breath fire immune to? Fire. What are adventurers carrying pooptons of Necklaces of Fireball immune to? Not fire, usually.

[Calthropstu]

Cool. That's... Actually, I don't know what WBL that is. It's higher than 20th, I know that much.

So if you spend the entirety of your wealth AND some of a friend's wealth on Necklaces of Fireball and happen to be up against something not immune to fire and doesn't have improved evasion and does fail all saves and doesn't just have poop-tons of HP/immunity to death by HP damage... Yeah, you could kill something. Once.

I DID stipulate fire resistance shuts this down hard. I am not arguing with you guys. Improved evasion doesn't help (they still take more than enough damage to kill them even failing on nat 1s) but fire resistance (or whatever if you change the element) would kill this tactic.

So yes, you have to worry about fire resistance, fire immunity and sr 31+. But not much else really.


So, as AV points out, these necklaces activate when you fail a save against a magical fire effect. What's a very common one? Dragon breath. What are dragons that breath fire immune to? Fire. What are adventurers carrying pooptons of Necklaces of Fireball immune to? Not fire, usually.

Actually, immunity to fire does not prevent the chain reaction. You are still caught in the fire, you still make a saving throw, you just ignore the effect of the fire. But the necklace does not... at least the way it is worded. So a character immune to fire, this would actually be a survivable tactic... and 5,800 d6 damage is a most impressive bomb. So while it wouldn't eliminate a red, gold or brass dragon, it would certainly obliterate a silver, bronze, white, blue, green, black, shadow, and most of the gem dragons. Actually, this would work against about 80% of dragons. This would also work against many outsiders as well (but not ones from the lower planes where immunity and resistance to fire runs rampant)

It would annihilate anything with fire vulnerability, nearly all undead that did not use energy risistance spells, almost any animal... sure the tarrasque would be able to ignore it, but things such as this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/living-lake) or this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/sea-serpents-TOHC/sea-serpent-deep-hunter) would be turned to paste. The most powerful published pathfinder monster this would work on seems to be this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/sea-serpents-TOHC/sea-serpent-shipbreaker) a cr 25 sea serpent. All the reast cr22 and above have sr 31+ which can completely ignore this (unless, of course, you somehow lower that SR... which would make this a VERY valid tactic against a good number of the upper pathfinder echelons many of which are not immune to fire)

[JNAProductions]

I DID stipulate fire resistance shuts this down hard. I am not arguing with you guys. Improved evasion doesn't help (they still take more than enough damage to kill them even failing on nat 1s) but fire resistance (or whatever if you change the element) would kill this tactic.

So yes, you have to worry about fire resistance. But not much else really.

Okay. Question, Cal-do you think this is a good tactic, or just something that's funny to think about?

[The Glyphstone]

It provides a funny mental image, if nothing else - hardened mercenary warriors draping themselves with hundreds of gold chains that have golden spheres hanging off them, like some crazed parody of a hip-hop mogul.

[Calthropstu]

Okay. Question, Cal-do you think this is a good tactic, or just something that's funny to think about?

Oh I am going just off hilarity. This would be awesome to try - if a tad absurd.

[JNAProductions]

Oh I am going just off hilarity. This would be awesome to try - if a tad absurd.

Fair enough, then. For what it is, it is funny. Not very effective, at any time, but funny.

[stanprollyright]

"Necklace of Fireballs suicide bombers" sounds like a great way to make low-level mooks matter.

[Telok]

"Necklace of Fireballs suicide bombers" sounds like a great way to make low-level mooks matter.

Yeah. Buy lots of used necklaces with only the last and weakest bead left. Give them to your goblin minions and tell them that if they get in a fight with adventurers to run up to the adventurers and throw the bead on the ground.

It won't even matter if the adventurers kill off a whole squad or three of goblins. They'll loot the gold, magic necklaces and carry them to the next fight. You just want to be sure of having some fire damage to throw around if any adventurers reach you.

[Sheogoroth]

Wow! Thanks for some great answers. So much I can do with Final Strike and Death Throes.
I like the Phoenix prc capstone, but the class features are so meh, I don't think it would add much.
Plus doing 20d6 fire damage at level 16 doesn't really have the same kick as it does at level 8.

My DM likes to kill characters(and I seem to be notoriously bad at not dying), I wanted to give him a little shock.

Collateral damage man is cool, but I was never really looking to break the game(except in case of death.)

The necklace of fireballs gives me a crazy idea. There's a 3rd party pathfinder PRC called Tin Man that gives you the ability to hold a readied action indefinitely, even acting after you readied it, as long as you clearly state the conditions under which you would act beforehand. If you rig a bunch of Fireball Necklaces together like a C4 loop to be triggered in the event of a killing blow(which you can do because the tin man allows you to keep making actions into the negatives, then goodbye dolly!