Who can Shadowcat beat?

[Elfie]

Hi everyone,

In an effort to mix up the "Who can beat XXX?" threads, I'm interested in seeing your thoughts on which heroes/villains Shadowcat can beat. The ability to become immune to her opponent's attacks is powerful indeed, and when coupled with her martial arts skills, it should make her a good fight against most non-damage resistant foes. But how much does it help when compared to the A-List martial artists? Let's keep it clean - the fights are to subdue each other, so Kitty won't be phasing anyone into walls and letting go.

A few ideas:

Kitty vs. Punisher
Kitty vs. Nightwing
Kitty vs. Daredevil

Kitty vs. Cyclops
Kitty vs. Nightcrawler
Kitty vs. Gambit

Obviously, feel free to add more and discuss!

[Nightwing]

Every one you listed could beat her

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, Rogue, in the guy department. Ah, I kid, the movie doesn't count.

Although it does bring up the ability to phase opponents into a wall and leave their heads free, thus incapacitating them (well, ones that can't punch through concrete or use telekinesis, anyway) nonlethally. Is this a legitimate strategy in the comic continuity? I don't read X-men as much as I should, and I don't even remember Shadowcat being in the cartoon that most of my familiarity with the title comes from.

If it is, all she'd need to do to incapacitate anyone on the low end of the superpower power scale (Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc.) is get a decent grapple on them and phase, which she could do with luck. Or by sheer distracting cuteness, in the case of the younger male heroes. If not, I don't really envy her chances. Her kung fu is not terribly strong in relative terms (last I checked. Comapre to Spider-Strength/Streetfighting, or to whatever the hell it is that Daredevil does). Any A-list brawler could defend themselves almost as well as she could, and any A-list non-brawler probably has enough power at range to keep her out of fisticuffs range.

And finally, if she's allowed to kill...I have three words and two initials: D.L. vs. Mr. Linderman. Sneak Attack to the Medula Oblongatta!

[Gavin Sage]

Otherway around Nightwing. Most people forget (including people who write her) that Ms Pryde in addition to being nearly untouchable is also has all the skills of a ninja master plus is a minor genius to boot. Wolverine respects her skills (having trained her in part) and he's the best hand to hand guy on the X-men. She's one of the most underappreciated characters in Marvel.

Punisher, Nightwing, and Daredevil have no way of hurting her with anything they normally carry nor are they going to be so much more skilled as to trick her. The X-men have a better chance from knowing what Shadowcat can do. Nightcrawler might get the drop on her, but this could be a very interesting (and long fight) and I'll still bet on Kitty. Cyclops and Gambit have a better chance since energy is somewhat effective on her, albeit I still have seen her go through fires and such while phased. Even then she can still say drop into the floor then hit them from behind.

[AtomicKitKat]

I vaguely remember her having "decent" martial arts skills, but unless she say, phases through a wall and sucker-punches them with a solidified fist, she's not really a contender against most physically-enhanced meta-humans(mutants, mutates, etc.). Even then, many characters apparently have a lot of levels in classes that grant Uncanny Dodge(or at least 3 or less levels fewer than however many ranks of Rogue your average street thug or Kitty might have). Between DD's blindsense and Spidey's Spider Sense, she's SOL against both(Granted, neither one could really hurt her either). Against Hulk, she would have to phase through his skull and remove his (whichever part of the brain triggers flight or fight), thereby saving the entire planet.

[Hushdawg]

Kitty Pryde has some great abilities, but she's not really ruthless enough to use them to full advantage, that's the only thing.
She would rather use her powers to escape and get out of harm's way than to hurt anyone.

She could kill anyone by just phasing her hand into the brain and solidifying it for an instant.

An important thing to remember, her NATURAL STATE is phased, she has to concentrate to stay solid. Therefore it would be easy for her to do the entire fight as in intangible and only make her fists and feet solid before striking.

Yeah, she's a nasty little kitten when she wants to be.

[Jerthanis]

Let's keep it clean - the fights are to subdue each other, so Kitty won't be phasing anyone into walls and letting go.

A few ideas:

Kitty vs. Punisher
Kitty vs. Nightwing
Kitty vs. Daredevil

Kitty vs. Cyclops
Kitty vs. Nightcrawler
Kitty vs. Gambit

Obviously, feel free to add more and discuss!

Okay, so Punisher can't kill, so can't use any of his guns... it's just him as a martial artist versus Kitty's equally impressive martial arts+superpower... Kitty easily.

Nightwing I think would win for the same reason Batman would win... Flashbangs. Kitty would be winning for a while, but when she least expected it, she'd get stunned by a gadget and revert to normal where Nightwing would roll in like a hurricane. (this strategy wouldn't have worked while she was phased in her natural state and had to concentrate to become physical) Nightwing probably takes this one.

Daredevil is a phenomenal martial artist, and one with superhuman senses, able to detect incoming threats based on sound and smell of the person in question. Of course, while phased she floats noiselessly and her body produces no scent for him to track, so she's not only invulnerable while phased, but to Daredevil, invisible as well... Kitty wins.

Versus Cyclops... it's been mentioned that energy attacks hurt her while in phased state, and Cyclops is the guy to go to for energy attacks. I'm not sure if I've ever seen him shoot her with one of his blasts though, so I don't know if she's partially immune, or anything. I tentatively give this to Cyclops, because he's way more experienced, is also no slouch in hand-to-hand, and has something that purportedly can hurt Kitty while phased.

Nightcrawler... Hmm... could go either way. He couldn't teleport her because he can't lay a hand on her... but he can strike her from surprise by sneaking up and teleporting behind her, but she can retreat through walls, which Nightcrawler has to be familiar with the area to teleport through things. I think I'll pass on this one.

Gambit is sort of the same deal as Cyclops. He's an expert fighter, has energy attacks which supposedly affects her while phased, and has more experience than her. Logic says Kitty probably loses.

Too bad there were no psychics in that list, Kitty's pretty good against Psychics. Moreso than any other character perhaps.

[StudlyDuck]

I'm pretty sure Kitty can phase through Cyclops' optic blasts. I'm under the impression that she can phase through most energy attacks, but it takes a lot more effort.

Even phased, she has shown a weakness to electrical attacks in the past, though.

[Elfie]

Great replies folks...a couple things to note.

* Cyclops' blasts are physical in nature, and therefore shouldn't have any effect on Kitty.

* I believe the same is true with Gambit - don't his charged nicknacks explode for physical damage?

* Kitty, as a martial artist, should be considered more nasty than initially expected. The opponent completely loses the ability to block, which should be a vital part of most defensive maneuvers. And anyone with a weapon (Captain America, for example), is in for disappointment when Kitty phases said weapon.

Who else can Kitty beat?

[ravenkith]

Surprisingly, if allowed to kill, Kitty would beat anyone not psychic and not magical in nature. It'd be a simple matter for her to phase someone into a brick wall.

Arguably, she could pull this same trick with just a leg or an arm, and incapacitate a lot of her enemies...or worse still, phase something and then unphase it inside someone...say...sufficient quantities of sedatives into someones stomach to knock them out.

Worst of all, when phased, people have been shown to be unable to breathe, in the past...so she could theoretically phase someone by surprise, after taking a deep breath herself, and assuming they need to breathe at all, they could be in a lot of trouble.

[Dihan]

As Elfie said, Cyclops' optic beams are concussion beams, Gambit can control kinetic energy... I don't know whether Gambit would be able to hit her with a charged up object.

Also good to note that Kitty is intangible all the time, she's a genius, a ninja, has a pet dragon, and sometimes uses one of Wolverine's claws as a weapon. Not to mention her intangibility renders her semi-immune to telepathy.

[DiscipleofBob]

Ooh, I love Versus Threads...

Most of this depends on whether Shadowcat, like any good rogue, gets the drop on her opponent. If not, then she's screwed in any case. If she takes her opponent completely by surprise, then it's an auto-win as she just phases the person's heart out. Of course, she's not a cold-blooded killer, but she can at least incapacitate them with a similar move.

VS Punisher: I'm going with the Punisher simply because he's insane enough that if he was convinced Kitty was a criminal, Punisher would strike first and without warning.

VS Nightwing: Er... not familiar with the Marvel Nightwing. If the DC version, then Nightwing. The guy was trained by Batman and would easily get the drop on Kitty.

VS Daredevil: How much noise does she make when she's phasing? Theoretically, Shadowcat could go intangible and all that sound and air and everything would go right through her, making a lot of Daredevil's sense useless. If he can find a way to sense her, Daredevil, but otherwise, Kitty.

VS Cyclops: I'm almost certain that Shadowcat's phased through laser beams and other types of energy at some point, which is really all that Cyclops has. Cyke might win through sheer tactics, but that's more likely in a team-based situation.

VS Nightcrawler: It's like a rogue VS a ninja... The ultimate hide-and-seek. I'm going to go with Nightcrawler because he can hang from a chandelier or a tree branch or something. He doesn't have to leave himself open on the ground or next to a wall. Then all he does is let Kitty get close enough to touch him, teleport her off a cliff and teleport back. I hope phasing can help soften impact.

VS Gambit: Very, very tough. If Gambit had unleashed his full power, Kitty and the entire planet would be gone. Assuming that's not the case, talking about power along Kitty has this one in the bag. But Gambit's suave and has lots of charm. He'd probably either seduce Kitty (much to Rogue's dissatisfaction) or feint when she turns solid and make something blow up in her face.

VS Spider-Man: Spider-Man. No question. It'd take some thinking for Spider-Man to be able to hit her, but with that Spidey-sense, Kitty can't get close to him.

VS Captain America: Captain America throws the shield. Shield goes through Kitty. "Ha, missed!" Shield ricochets back and catches her in the back of the head while her guard's down. Captain America wins easily.

[Runolfr]

Worst of all, when phased, people have been shown to be unable to breathe, in the past...so she could theoretically phase someone by surprise, after taking a deep breath herself, and assuming they need to breathe at all, they could be in a lot of trouble.

The only problem with this theory is that if she causes someone else to phase, she becomes tangible to them. If she phases someone, they can punch her. While potentially effective, it's an extremely dangerous trick to try.

[DiscipleofBob]

The only problem with this theory is that if she causes someone else to phase, she becomes tangible to them. If she phases someone, they can punch her. While potentially effective, it's an extremely dangerous trick to try.

Actually, she can phase parts of her body at a time. For example, she phased through Destiny's shoulder and kept her body intangible while her hand knocked the crossbow out of Destiny's hand.

[jazz1m]

An important thing to remember, her NATURAL STATE is phased, she has to concentrate to stay solid.

I think she now is in her natural state and needs to 'choose' to phase rather than it being unconscious. Just a note.

[....]

Kitty phases you out of the earth's gravatational field for a few minutes and then lets go.

You were in Ney York, now you're in the middle of the Pacific.

Fights over.

[ravenkith]

She certainly ought to whup the crap out of iron man.

Also, hasn't she been trained as a ninja, a spy, and a black-belt martial artist?

This isn't 'Sprite-child' we're talking about here...this is the all-grown up Shadowcat.

[Hushdawg]

I think she now is in her natural state and needs to 'choose' to phase rather than it being unconscious. Just a note.

You are right, I looked it up in "teh cyclopedia el Marvel" I guess I forgot about that change in her power set.

[Jerthanis]

* Cyclops' blasts are physical in nature, and therefore shouldn't have any effect on Kitty.

* I believe the same is true with Gambit - don't his charged nicknacks explode for physical damage?


Well... okay... she's supposedly vulnerable to energy attacks... and Kinetic energy is a type of energy. Since there's no mass to Cyclops' beams, you have to assume it's raw kinetic energy, which under comic book logic could be considered to affect Kitty, since while she's intangible objects can't touch her to deliver kinetic energy, but perhaps kinetic energy itself can still be delivered.

There are only like, four types of energy total, right? Kinetic, Gravitational, Magnetic and Electric, right? (discounting Potential and Chemical, which don't seem like the type to impact such a discussion.) So if Kinetic passes through her, it's just Electric, Gravitational, and Magnetic left. Since Kitty's mass is so much reduced by her phasing that she floats rather than walks, and isn't borne through the ground by gravity, it'd take a disproportionate amount of gravitational energy to affect her at all. Magnetic energy might do something to her, and unfortunately I haven't ever seen her in action against Magneto, so I can't be certain the effect on her, but if it comes down to Electrical and Kinetic, and she's only effected by electricity, why would it be mentioned that she's still vulnerable to energy attacks if she's really only vulnerable to electricity? It sounds like something that's up to the writer to a huge degree.

Other people she can beat in my opinion? Emma Frost, Reed Richards, Silver Samurai, Ultron (on a good day), Blob, Practically, but not quite, every single Spider-Man villain (a huge number of them depend on their inventions to mimic superpowers... inventions which would short out on contact with phased Kitty)... For that matter she beats the Wizard and the Trapster (better known as Paste Pot Pete, of course), but I think I'd have more trouble figuring out who CAN'T beat those two.

[Essex]

Ooh, I love Versus Threads...

VS Captain America: Captain America throws the shield. Shield goes through Kitty. "Ha, missed!" Shield ricochets back and catches her in the back of the head while her guard's down. Captain America wins easily.

Ha, shows what you know. Kitty wins. Corpses are incapable of taking actions (despite the fact that, IIRC, the D&D rules don't specifically state this).:smallbiggrin:

[Hushdawg]

For that matter she beats the Wizard and the Trapster (better known as Paste Pot Pete, of course), but I think I'd have more trouble figuring out who CAN'T beat those two.

marriage apparently can't beat them... no way in hell a married woman would let her husband cavort about in those rediculous outfits and gimmicks.

Also, looks like they can't be beaten by Marvel scriptwriters since they are still around.

[DiscipleofBob]

Ha, shows what you know. Kitty wins. Corpses are incapable of taking actions (despite the fact that, IIRC, the D&D rules don't specifically state this).:smallbiggrin:

Apparently you haven't read Marvel Zombies. :smallbiggrin:

[DiscipleofBob]

There are only like, four types of energy total, right? Kinetic, Gravitational, Magnetic and Electric, right? (discounting Potential and Chemical, which don't seem like the type to impact such a discussion.) So if Kinetic passes through her, it's just Electric, Gravitational, and Magnetic left. Since Kitty's mass is so much reduced by her phasing that she floats rather than walks, and isn't borne through the ground by gravity, it'd take a disproportionate amount of gravitational energy to affect her at all. Magnetic energy might do something to her, and unfortunately I haven't ever seen her in action against Magneto, so I can't be certain the effect on her, but if it comes down to Electrical and Kinetic, and she's only effected by electricity, why would it be mentioned that she's still vulnerable to energy attacks if she's really only vulnerable to electricity? It sounds like something that's up to the writer to a huge degree.

Other people she can beat in my opinion? Emma Frost, Reed Richards, Silver Samurai, Ultron (on a good day), Blob, Practically, but not quite, every single Spider-Man villain (a huge number of them depend on their inventions to mimic superpowers... inventions which would short out on contact with phased Kitty)... For that matter she beats the Wizard and the Trapster (better known as Paste Pot Pete, of course), but I think I'd have more trouble figuring out who CAN'T beat those two.


Er... Gravity and magnetism aren't really energy types. They're forces.

As for actual energy types, you're missing a few big ones: light, heat, sound. All of those are energy types.

[StudlyDuck]

I'm not sure about light, but aren't heat and sound just kinetic energy on the molecular level?

[Gavin Sage]

VS Captain America: Captain America throws the shield. Shield goes through Kitty. "Ha, missed!" Shield ricochets back and catches her in the back of the head while her guard's down. Captain America wins easily.

Kitty isn't that stupid though the overall result is similar. Actually it goes something like this:

Cap throws his shield. Kitty phases instincively. Shield goes through her or whacks her. Kitty goes down.

Why? Hyperdense material is one of the few relative weakpoints she has. Kitty for example can get extremely screwed up phasing through adamantium. Cap's shield is like adamantium (which was created in an attempt to replicate the shield) only even stronger with vibranium thrown in for good measure.

Now given I don't know Kitty and shield have ever met, but Cap can injure her based on everything else we know about her powers. Course she may just end up unconcious in a phased state but I think it would be enough for a win if not kill.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm not sure about light, but aren't heat and sound just kinetic energy on the molecular level?
Yes.

Texttext.

[Scientivore]

And IIRC light is a moving electric field creating a moving magnetic field at right angles to it, that is in turn creating the moving electric field that is creating it. So, it's self-perpetuating electromagnetism. But with mass.

[SteveMB]

And IIRC light is a moving electric field creating a moving magnetic field at right angles to it, that is in turn creating the moving electric field that is creating it. So, it's self-perpetuating electromagnetism. But with mass.

Basically. It has mass because it has energy, and they're interchangeable.

[North]

Yeah Ninja Kitty can take out that crowd. As long as there isnt plot induced stupidity on her part. One of the Phasing crowds <Kitty,Vision, Astra> standard moves was to only partially phase a hand inside someones chest. Makes them go thru excrutiating pain and pass out. Her default position is being phases. In a semi-recent issue of Astonishing Xmen. Her and Colossus are "bowchicawownon". She gets too "excited" and phases thru the floor. Showing if she loses control she reverts back to a phased mode.

She ninjas up to them ,partial-phases they pass out. Several of the list will be very hard to catch<Nightwing, Daredevil, Nightcrawler> so its more of an endurance match if anything

[Ozymandias]

I understood that photons are massless (but have momentum). They can be converted into mass, I think, with a ratio of E=mc2, the energy of a photon being its frequency times Planck's constant. They have 0 rest mass, though.

Regardless, whether or not Kitty's powers protect her from different energy forms depends solely, I'm betting, on the writer, whether he has a working knowledge of special relativity or not.

[Elfie]

Kitty isn't that stupid though the overall result is similar. Actually it goes something like this:

Cap throws his shield. Kitty phases instincively. Shield goes through her or whacks her. Kitty goes down.

Why? Hyperdense material is one of the few relative weakpoints she has. Kitty for example can get extremely screwed up phasing through adamantium. Cap's shield is like adamantium (which was created in an attempt to replicate the shield) only even stronger with vibranium thrown in for good measure.

Now given I don't know Kitty and shield have ever met, but Cap can injure her based on everything else we know about her powers. Course she may just end up unconcious in a phased state but I think it would be enough for a win if not kill.

Is this canon? She's phased through Wolverine many times, and hasn't had problems...my guess is that the time(s) when she has had problems with dense metal was storyline specific - it's not mentioned under her info at the MU website.

One thing that is mentioned is that her phasing thru a living being can result in the disruption of electrical impulses of the brain, rendering the target unconscious. Can anyone comment on this ability? Is it used much, or just a one-off deal? If its part of her regular maneuvers, that makes her even more powerful than previously thought.

[Raiser Blade]

If kitty really wanted to kill someone noone could stop her just phase right up under them stick a fist in their head "splorchkt"

[Gavin Sage]

Is this canon? She's phased through Wolverine many times, and hasn't had problems...my guess is that the time(s) when she has had problems with dense metal was storyline specific - it's not mentioned under her info at the MU website.

One thing that is mentioned is that her phasing thru a living being can result in the disruption of electrical impulses of the brain, rendering the target unconscious. Can anyone comment on this ability? Is it used much, or just a one-off deal? If its part of her regular maneuvers, that makes her even more powerful than previously thought.

In Astonishing she has trouble with the Breakworld ship hulls and I have seen the adamantium thing but can't remember where. And I've seen references to vibranium effecting her in disscussions elsewhere, but then its Marvel's wonder metal anyways. I can't actually quote/link anything but I fairly certain on it.

In general I find guides of all sorts, especially on under-apreciated characters, tend to be very sketchy at best. For example wikipedia states she's back to solid naturally while there is no event that causes this as far as I can tell, and I have read (I believe in her Mechanix story line) that it is still naturally phased she can simply remain solid with no real effort. And even after that in New Excalibur her phasing as an instinctive defense mechanism.

Like so much these things can depend on when and where and who is writing....

[Elliot Kane]

Otherway around Nightwing. Most people forget (including people who write her) that Ms Pryde in addition to being nearly untouchable is also has all the skills of a ninja master plus is a minor genius to boot. Wolverine respects her skills (having trained her in part) and he's the best hand to hand guy on the X-men. She's one of the most underappreciated characters in Marvel.

Completely agree. She was possessed by Ogun, who trained Wolverine, and kept all his skills when the possession was ended. Kitty is one of the most lethally dangerous characters in the MU, even without her phasing powers which make her nearly impossible to hit.

she'd beat everyone on that list hands down if she really wanted to.

[North]

Also I might be foggy on this one but isnt she an agent of sheild too? So shed have sheild metahuman training and everything.

[Hushdawg]

Also I might be foggy on this one but isnt she an agent of sheild too? So shed have sheild metahuman training and everything.

That's one of those alternate universe type things.

I don't think it's "common universe" stuff.

[Hushdawg]

If kitty really wanted to kill someone noone could stop her just phase right up under them stick a fist in their head "splorchkt"

Quoted for awesome sound effect

I think I'll be going around all day saying that

"splorchkt"

[Elfie]

Ok, so given that we've established her skills and power level, who Can't she beat? Assuming sneaky tactics are fine, but no killing or permanently incapacitating people.

[Essex]

Ok, so given that we've established her skills and power level, who Can't she beat? Assuming sneaky tactics are fine, but no killing or permanently incapacitating people.

She can't beat anybody who lacks a body (ie. the Shadow King). She can't beat anybody who lacks vital organs (ie. Morph).

[North]

Although she could kill morph theoretically. IM not sure if morph would survive that or not.

[DiscipleofBob]

Ok, so given that we've established her skills and power level, who Can't she beat? Assuming sneaky tactics are fine, but no killing or permanently incapacitating people.

I think the biggest issue is more the circumstances of the fight than its opponent.

If we're talking something that fits in the context of the Marvel storyline, then based on Kitty's personality I think a lot of opponents (ie. Punisher) would track her down and attack her first, and he'd only need one good shot when she's solid to take her out. She may be able to phase through pretty much everything, but it's those times when she's solid that counts.

If it's straight-up, both characters meet and start fighting, then it depends on whether the opponent can effectively counter Kitty's strategy. From what I've read, Kitty has two options. 1) She can either phase through the floor, wall, etc. come up below, behind, etc. her opponent and do the phase-through-body-insta-win, or she could go directly hand-to-hand and throw off her opponent with some phasing moves and go in for a similar win that way.

As for the whole ninja/martial arts training thing, Shadowcat isn't alone in that department nor is she even near the top as far as hand-to-hand combat goes. Just because she now knows how to fight doesn't mean she's the best at it. It doesn't so much give her an advantage as it does put her on a more balanced level with some of the other Marvel characters.

Really, for the opponent, anyone who's smart enough not to approach the battle from a conventional style could take down Kitty. All it takes is some clever manipulation of terrain and some good senses and reaction time to nullify Kitty's first strategy. Anyone who tries to go direct hand-to-hand ir probably screwed unless they have a trump card. Flyers completely screw over Kitty, particularly those with projectile attacks. Other sneaky types can beat Kitty as long as they get the drop on her. If she gets the drop on them, then they're screwed. Really, any of these fights would be like an epic game of hide-and-seek.

Some guys off the top of my head who could take her down:

Spider-Man: Spider-sense means Kitty will never be able to get close enough to him.

Invisible Woman: Not sure if Kitty can phase through forcefields. Even if she could, can't hit what she can't see.

Storm: Flyer with lightning bolts. Kitty doesn't really stand a chance.

[Ozymandias]

snip

Kitty was trained by Ogun, correct? He is definitely in the top tier of Marvel martial artists, having taught Wolverine etc. I'd say she's in a very, very high tier, as well, although not that of primary martial artists (Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Wolverine et al.)

More to the point, though, she wasn't just trained as a fighter; she was trained as a super-secret ninja assassin. Her enemies don't automatically win in the sneak attack department because she's very likely better at it, and will likely predict or pre-empt her opponent unless they're very, very good.

She can 'fly', too, I think.

Spider-Man's senses may or may not work, depending on whether the author decides they will or not.

Ultimate Kitty was owned by Sue's fields, and I think they're effect in 616 too. (Since she's visible, it stands to reason that she's not impervious to light, so...)

[North]

Not as much flying as walking on air. And yeah she has got mad ninja stealth skills

[Rama_Lei]

Kitty fighting Daredevil is like a regular man beating a blind man,

[Elliot Kane]

Kitty's limitations are partly physical (She has only the strength and speed of a normal young woman) and partly mental (She is a highly principled young woman who doesn't really want to hurt anyone).

She's not going to beat anyone with any kind of invulnerability or energy form powers, and she's vulnerable to magic. Her psi-resistance is higher than a normal human's, but a powerful telepath will beat her.

Illyana 'Magik' Rasputin could also beat her, as her Soulsword is the one weapon proven to be able to hit Kitty in her phased state.

If you're a normal human, though - and even a lot of enhanced humans - your chance of beating Kitty in a straight fight is around zero.

[DiscipleofBob]

Kitty was trained by Ogun, correct? He is definitely in the top tier of Marvel martial artists, having taught Wolverine etc. I'd say she's in a very, very high tier, as well, although not that of primary martial artists (Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Wolverine et al.)

Which was the point I was trying to make.


More to the point, though, she wasn't just trained as a fighter; she was trained as a super-secret ninja assassin. Her enemies don't automatically win in the sneak attack department because she's very likely better at it, and will likely predict or pre-empt her opponent unless they're very, very good.

I'd say that there are some who are better at the super-secret ninja assassin apartment, if for no other reason than experience. Examples in Marvel elude me right now, but Batman for instance would have quite a bit more experience in that department than Kitty.


She can 'fly', too, I think.

I've never even heard of her being able to do so. Even if she did, I doubt she'd have the same kind of manueverability and speed as other flyers would. Even if she could, there aren't many places to hide and sneak up on people in midair.


Spider-Man's senses may or may not work, depending on whether the author decides they will or not.

I'm talking about the Spider-Sense, which warns Spider-Man of impending danger. It'd go off as soon as Kitty got close and Spidey would know to get the hell out of the way.


Ultimate Kitty was owned by Sue's fields, and I think they're effect in 616 too. (Since she's visible, it stands to reason that she's not impervious to light, so...)

Fair enough.

[DiscipleofBob]

If you're a normal human, though - and even a lot of enhanced humans - your chance of beating Kitty in a straight fight is around zero.

I partially disagree.

There are ways to counter Shadowcat's strategies, it would just take an impressive field tactician with field reflexes to be able to pull it off.

[Selrahc]

Daredevil would do fairly well. Because he would only sense her when she was tangible, and so would only attempt to hit her when she is able to be hit.

But like everyone on the original list, a win would be plot dependent. Honestly I'd give her the win over Cyclops, since she nullifies his powers and is a better martial artist. Everyone else, its learning to strike as she unphases, which they would all be capable of doing. KItty could win, or she could lose.

Oh, and whoever said Ultron would lose to her, remember that after numerous years of fighting the vision, hes now constructed out of phase resistant materials. Which I've seen her get through, but it took her fierce concentration, several minutes of time and an environment free of interuptions, which a fight against Ultron won't really provide.

Shes more than willing to threaten an end to the fight too. Against someone who doesn't know her very well(Punisher, Daredevil and Nightwing) she may well grab them, phase them out, out them half in a wall and tell them if they don't back off she'll unphase them. She wouldn't actually do it though.

[Gavin Sage]

I'm talking about the Spider-Sense, which warns Spider-Man of impending danger. It'd go off as soon as Kitty got close and Spidey would know to get the hell out of the way.

And thus Spidey has never been injured, ever. The issue is that the Spider-Sense doesn't tell Peter exactly what is about to happen. He still has to think and reason out what is going on often enough.

I'd actually like to see this fight, albeit because simply because of Ultimate Spider-man more then anything, but think its an even fight on the whole. Spidey is more powerful phyiscally and has that little tingle, but also largely lacks formal fighting training beyond a few sparring sessions with the Avengers. Kitty however can not easily sucker-punch and is otherwise vannila human powerwise. I'd bet on Spidey, but could go otherway easily and would be a fun fight to watch all around.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Ultimate Spidey vs. Ultimate Kitty? It's like Hank Pym's marriage all over again.

Actually, I haven't read Ultimate Spider-Man in months, so I'm not sure if they're still together. I really need to catch up.

[Gavin Sage]

Yeah several months.... I'm guessing you haven't read the Ultimate Clone Saga then. As any Spidey fan knows, the word clone should be enough to make one shutter. However the Ultimate version is probably the best story of USM's entire run.

[Longshanks]

Every one you listed could beat her

Punisher would have a hard time shooting something that was intangible. But yes most of these superheroes CAN beat Shadowcat.

[Indon]

I agree with the 'Shadowcat doesn't use her powers to their full lethality because she is nice' crowd.

Normal Shadowcat has a good chance of incapacitating most heroes not based on magic or super-science or the like.

Now, an amoral Shadowcat would be almost definitely lethal to the same.

[DiscipleofBob]

Punisher would have a hard time shooting something that was intangible. But yes most of these superheroes CAN beat Shadowcat.

If this was a straight-up, arena-style match, then yes Punisher would be screwed. But if you consider their personalities and how it would likely happen in story context, it's a different story.

Punisher would likely see Shadowcat as a criminal transgressor of sorts in some way that his delusional mind can conceive. He'll do the research and track her down first. He'll just get a sniper rifle ready, wait for a moment when she's actually tangible, and shoot her through the head before she has a chance to react.

[Green Bean]

He'll just get a sniper rifle ready, wait for a moment when she's actually tangible, and shoot her through the head before she has a chance to react.

But how will he be able to tell? There's no way to pick out whether or not she's intangible unless she's actually phasing through something

[Beleriphon]

But how will he be able to tell? There's no way to pick out whether or not she's intangible unless she's actually phasing through something

Because presumably when a young woman is hanging around The Gap buying clothes she need to be able to handle said clothes.

[DiscipleofBob]

But how will he be able to tell? There's no way to pick out whether or not she's intangible unless she's actually phasing through something


Oh look, she's eating spaghetti in a restaurant window. Oh look, she's sitting on furniture. Oh look, she's making out with Colossus or whoever her romantic interest is at the moment. If she's interacting with a solid object, chances are she's not intangible.

[Elliot Kane]

I partially disagree.

There are ways to counter Shadowcat's strategies, it would just take an impressive field tactician with field reflexes to be able to pull it off.

Granted :)

I'd not be surprised if Captain America beat her for that reason :)

[DiscipleofBob]

Granted :)

I'd not be surprised if Captain America beat her for that reason :)

My sentiments exactly.

[AtomicKitKat]

Vs Spidey, I see it sort of like this.

Round 1: Spidey and Kitty square off. Spidey tries a test shot(we're presuming he's not Mr Fantastic, and thus doesn't have some Negative Dimension junk mixed up into his webbing or stuff), Kitty phases and drops through the ground.

Round 2: Kitty tries to get off a "non-lethal" hit to the back of Spidey's skull. Spidey's Uncanny Dodge kicks in, he ducks, and uses the same motion to pull her arm/leg/head over his shoulder, throwing her to the ground in front of him.

At this point, it depends on whether she phases faster than he can bring her to the ground(remember, Strength increases how fast you can perform some things, or in this case, it's "explosive actions", which Spidey is very good at, having the proportional strength of a spider and all that), and whether she manages to take him with her(I'm guessing no, since her ability to phase others should be a touch attack, rather than "As long as they're in contact with me." However, if I'm wrong about this, then Spidey has to let go of her post-haste in order to unphase.) Still, if she phases him with her, he'll put her in a Spider-strengthtm stranglehold and knock her out pretty quick.

[Elfie]

Vs Spidey, I see it sort of like this.

Round 1: Spidey and Kitty square off. Spidey tries a test shot(we're presuming he's not Mr Fantastic, and thus doesn't have some Negative Dimension junk mixed up into his webbing or stuff), Kitty phases and drops through the ground.

Round 2: Kitty tries to get off a "non-lethal" hit to the back of Spidey's skull. Spidey's Uncanny Dodge kicks in, he ducks, and uses the same motion to pull her arm/leg/head over his shoulder, throwing her to the ground in front of him.

At this point, it depends on whether she phases faster than he can bring her to the ground(remember, Strength increases how fast you can perform some things, or in this case, it's "explosive actions", which Spidey is very good at, having the proportional strength of a spider and all that), and whether she manages to take him with her(I'm guessing no, since her ability to phase others should be a touch attack, rather than "As long as they're in contact with me." However, if I'm wrong about this, then Spidey has to let go of her post-haste in order to unphase.) Still, if she phases him with her, he'll put her in a Spider-strengthtm stranglehold and knock her out pretty quick.

Except, of course, that only the fist/foot that she was using to strike with was solid - the rest of the arm/leg is ungrabable. How likely is it that he's going to try to grab the tip of what she's swinging at him?

Mind you, I still think he'd win probably...I just don't think Kitty does enough damage to him (I doubt she could hit him, or if she did, it would be just glancing blows).

[AtomicKitKat]

Except, of course, that only the fist/foot that she was using to strike with was solid - the rest of the arm/leg is ungrabable. How likely is it that he's going to try to grab the tip of what she's swinging at him?

With Spidey Sense, it's pretty easy to do the old martial arts trick of "I has your fist like a baseball!" and with Spidey Strength, throw.

[robopaladin]

How about Ghostrider? Or the various symbiotes? Would her phasing stop a piece of the costume from bonding? How much does her phasing affect direct contact? She phases with her clothing, but does she have to think about it while doing it? I just wonder if she can phase once webbed because of its adhesive qualities. I also wonder about magical weapons, like Thor's Hammer.

[AtomicKitKat]

Crud. Now you've got me imagining her first experience phasing. Looking suspiciously like the first time Alex Mack "melted", no less.:smalleek: :smallredface: :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

[Hiruma]

Since you asked who Shadowcat CAN beat and not who Shadowcat WILL beat, the answer is obvious.

Everyone on the list ;[

[Selrahc]

How about Ghostrider? Or the various symbiotes? Would her phasing stop a piece of the costume from bonding? How much does her phasing affect direct contact? She phases with her clothing, but does she have to think about it while doing it? I just wonder if she can phase once webbed because of its adhesive qualities. I also wonder about magical weapons, like Thor's Hammer.

Ghostriders Hellfire would probably hurt her. It burns the soul or somesuch.

The symbiotes would do nothing to her unless she let them, because she can choose what she phases, bringing them with her or leaving them behind.

She can phase out of someone grip, or phase anyone who is touching her.

She has to concentrate to phase other objects more than just herself, but the costume is unstable molecules, so its as natural to phase as she is.

The clothing is easy to phase, the webbing isn't/ SO she could drop right through the webbing.

Thors hammer may be able to hit her. It has some odd stuff going on, from blasting energy to travelling dimensions. Random magical weapon X has never been able to hit her while phased, or she'd be fracking useless against Juggernaught to name just one foe.

[DiscipleofBob]

Ghost Rider and Thor could easily take down Shadowcat, as I sincerely doubt her powers have any effect on the divine or unholy. The only reason I didn't list Thor earlier was because I thought that gods were kind of obvious.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How about Ghostrider? Or the various symbiotes? Would her phasing stop a piece of the costume from bonding? How much does her phasing affect direct contact? She phases with her clothing, but does she have to think about it while doing it? I just wonder if she can phase once webbed because of its adhesive qualities. I also wonder about magical weapons, like Thor's Hammer.

I think clothing, at least, is automatic. When the Ultimate Kitty was just realizing she had powers, before she went to Xavier's school, she phased from her room down into the sewers, and didn't loose her clothes. (And, since it was the Ultimate MU, it would have been fairly easy and excusable for her to hide her privates in shadows/hair/'camera' angle.

[AtomicKitKat]

I think clothing, at least, is automatic. When the Ultimate Kitty was just realizing she had powers, before she went to Xavier's school, she phased from her room down into the sewers, and didn't loose her clothes. (And, since it was the Ultimate MU, it would have been fairly easy and excusable for her to hide her privates in shadows/hair/'camera' angle.

Wait...If I'm following you, UMU is more permissive?:smalleek:

[Haggis_McCrablice]

Against Hulk, she would have to phase through his skull and remove his (whichever part of the brain triggers flight or fight), thereby saving the entire planet.
The amygdala...which was also the name of a Batman villain.

I say Kit should phase through someone's body and give them an upset stomach. :smallconfused: It sort of takes the fight out of someone when they have a load in their drawers. :smallyuk: This'd be especially useful against a big ol' boy like Blob. Just remember to run like hell when he lets go. :smallredface:

[AtomicKitKat]

The amygdala...which was also the name of a Batman villain.

I say Kit should phase through someone's body and give them an upset stomach. :smallconfused: It sort of takes the fight out of someone when they have a load in their drawers. :smallyuk: This'd be especially useful against a big ol' boy like Blob. Just remember to run like hell when he lets go. :smallredface:

Speaking of which, I had a thought. If Queen Bitchy the Emo Scarlet Witch hadn't depowered him(and left him with Fat Bastard jowls), he would probably eventually have gained the ability to climb walls using his subjective gravity powers. Assuming you could find a wall big enough to take his tonnage.:smallbiggrin:

[Diakos]

Id say she could beat anyone if she was so inclined, if various embedding enemies in walls wont work, phasing a grenade inside someone's skull is pretty much a win in my book...

[sealemon]

Thors hammer may be able to hit her. It has some odd stuff going on, from blasting energy to travelling dimensions. Random magical weapon X has never been able to hit her while phased, or she'd be fracking useless against Juggernaught to name just one foe.

Paging through an old Avengers trade collection (Perez's run in the 70's) confirms this. Thor was possesed, and when Vision tried to do his classic I'll-phase-into-you-and-partially-solidify-FTW, Thor simply stuck his hammer inside Vision's ghost body and shocked him. Safe to assume magic lightning would get Kitty as well.

[horseboy]

Ghost Rider and Thor could easily take down Shadowcat, as I sincerely doubt her powers have any effect on the divine or unholy. The only reason I didn't list Thor earlier was because I thought that gods were kind of obvious.

As much as I want to represent for the "Z" man, hellfire wouldn't hurt Kitty. Hellfire hurts you depending on how much "sin" you have. Given that she's a (generally) good Jewish girl it would tingle and possibly stun her a little, but she's not "evil" enough for him to hurt her.

Thor, on the other hand: "Lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufaBKdY60w)

[DiscipleofBob]

As much as I want to represent for the "Z" man, hellfire wouldn't hurt Kitty. Hellfire hurts you depending on how much "sin" you have. Given that she's a (generally) good Jewish girl it would tingle and possibly stun her a little, but she's not "evil" enough for him to hurt her.

Thor, on the other hand: "Lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufaBKdY60w)

Okay, with Ghost Rider, you have a point.

But with any other baddies like Mephisto or Blackheart, she'd be going to hell in a handbasket... or several.

[Vuzzmop]

Well, Rogue, in the guy department. Ah, I kid, the movie doesn't count.

Although it does bring up the ability to phase opponents into a wall and leave their heads free, thus incapacitating them (well, ones that can't punch through concrete or use telekinesis, anyway) nonlethally. Is this a legitimate strategy in the comic continuity? I don't read X-men as much as I should, and I don't even remember Shadowcat being in the cartoon that most of my familiarity with the title comes from.

If it is, all she'd need to do to incapacitate anyone on the low end of the superpower power scale (Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc.) is get a decent grapple on them and phase, which she could do with luck. Or by sheer distracting cuteness, in the case of the younger male heroes. If not, I don't really envy her chances. Her kung fu is not terribly strong in relative terms (last I checked. Comapre to Spider-Strength/Streetfighting, or to whatever the hell it is that Daredevil does). Any A-list brawler could defend themselves almost as well as she could, and any A-list non-brawler probably has enough power at range to keep her out of fisticuffs range.

And finally, if she's allowed to kill...I have three words and two initials: D.L. vs. Mr. Linderman. Sneak Attack to the Medula Oblongatta!

If shadowcat half phased someone, or herself, into a brick wall, concrete wall etc, they would most likely die. Has anyone here read the Ruin comics? She tried to phase through a door and lost three metres of intestine in the process. And the DL back of the head thing made no sense. Why wasn't his hand destroyed too?

[horseboy]

Hmm, Shdowcat vs. Tempest? Or does Atari Force not count? :smalltongue:

[Faramir]

re Kitty vs. energy attacks - it's officially inconsistent. Magneto has rendered her unconscious while she was phased but in Joss Whedon's run she protected the X-Men from a huge energy blast by phasing them. Those are the two that come to me off the top of my head but I know there are other examples.

Of course a reasonable argument could be made that she's gained greater control over her powers over the years and that's why she's more resistant now.

[sealemon]

re Kitty vs. energy attacks - it's officially inconsistent. Magneto has rendered her unconscious while she was phased but in Joss Whedon's run she protected the X-Men from a huge energy blast by phasing them. Those are the two that come to me off the top of my head but I know there are other examples.

Of course a reasonable argument could be made that she's gained greater control over her powers over the years and that's why she's more resistant now.

I'd argue that anyone with magnetic powers and some decent control COULD affect her by disrupting her brainwaves...Thor knows Magneto's done much sillier things.

Also, anyone with a gas or sonic attack would hurt her pretty bad. Thus, as much as it pains me to say it...if Batman is prepared...

[DiscipleofBob]

Also, anyone with a gas or sonic attack would hurt her pretty bad. Thus, as much as it pains me to say it...if Batman is prepared...

"If Batman is prepared" lol

He's Batman. He's ALWAYS prepared.