Poison Tumbling build

[Stryyke]

Ok, next build I'm working on is a poisoning build. I've seen a number of classes that have poisoning in them, but I'm actually looking for a very specific build type. High move, move in, poison, tumble out type build. Rather than a ranged build, I am looking for a melee build based on tumbling. Obviously if I can get flight, the flyby attack and improved flyby attack would be ideal; but what to do when I am stuck in a passageway.

In addition, what poisons are really worth it. I know that the higher the level, the more expensive it will be to get an effective poison. And there are some major limitations when it comes to undead and constructs. All that should be taken into consideration in the build. Dance in, Dance out melee build. That's what I'm looking for. Thoughts.

P.S. One that can eat up AoO would be best. That would give everyone else an easier time moving tactically.

[Flickerdart]

What's your game plan after you poison them? Since you want to get out of dodge, you clearly don't intend for your poison to make the target stop being a threat. But on its turn, the target walks up to you and kills you anyway.

Get a bow, stand behind your tank, and fire poison arrows.

[Stryyke]

What's your game plan after you poison them? Since you want to get out of dodge, you clearly don't intend for your poison to make the target stop being a threat. But on its turn, the target walks up to you and kills you anyway.

Get a bow, stand behind your tank, and fire poison arrows.

Eating AoO and making life easier for the fighters. Crowd control early on, probably; but whatever can land at higher levels.

[daremetoidareyo]

What sources?

Serpent kingdoms has the spit poison and another feat that turns spit poison into a cone.

That would pair well with flyby attack.

[Stryyke]

My GM is a bit finicky on what sources he uses. Any published source will be fine as long as it's balanced. He'll nix things even from official sources if he thinks they are too op. Just think balance and published source.

[Flickerdart]

Eating AoO and making life easier for the fighters. Crowd control early on, probably; but whatever can land at higher levels.
People getting in the way of the fighters doesn't make their life easier. And AoOs aren't really that much of an issue in "sit and swing" full attack combat. Even if they were, and you wanted to proc them, why do you need Tumble?

Poison doesn't help with crowd control at all.

[Stryyke]

People getting in the way of the fighters doesn't make their life easier. And AoOs aren't really that much of an issue in "sit and swing" full attack combat. Even if they were, and you wanted to proc them, why do you need Tumble?

Poison doesn't help with crowd control at all.

LOL I'm not going to stand in front of the fighters! Think flanking positions.

Now I may be wrong, but moving out of a threatened square will proc AoO, and tumbling ensures I don't get hit. Is that not right? Does tumbling cause AoO to not proc?

[Flickerdart]

LOL I'm not going to stand in front of the fighters! Think flanking positions.
So the guy you're trying to poison turns around and kills you. A +2 flank bonus for your meat shield isn't worth it.



Now I may be wrong, but moving out of a threatened square will proc AoO, and tumbling ensures I don't get hit. Is that not right? Does tumbling cause AoO to not proc?
Tumbling denies the proc, it doesn't make the attack automatically miss you.

[Stryyke]

So the guy you're trying to poison turns around and kills you. A +2 flank bonus for your meat shield isn't worth it.


Tumbling denies the proc, it doesn't make the attack automatically miss you.

Dang. Ok. Let's focus on eating AoO's then. The fighters in the campaign are just getting brutalized by AoO's.

[A.A.King]

You may want to look at the Quiet Murderer (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471361-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Quiet-Murder-(Tempest_Stormwind)) build. It showcases how you can make Spring Attack really worth it (and Spring Attack, although not tumbling is move-in, attack, move-out, which is what you want to do)

The build stub is Scout 4 / Wilderness Rogue 13 / Fighter 1 / Swordsage 2. Having both Scout and Rogue levels means you can trade-in the Rogue's "Trapfinding" ability in exchange for the "Poison Use" ability through Drow Rogue ACF from Drow of the Underdark (being a Drow is not actually required for this ACF).

[SangoProduction]

If Dark Suns is on the board, they have a poison class. It seems...subpar, all things considered. But that's more because of poison than because of the build. It'd be half decent, I think, if poison was decent.

You can also graft poison fangs from Serpent Kingdoms for 8k gold for poison that scales with HD and Con. And Serpent Arms (same book) does the same thing. If Pathfinder April Fools classes are on the table, you can also be a Gelatinous cube that has a Paralyze that scales with HD and Con, and a massive boost in Con.

To follow that up, be a changeling (since Gelatinous Cube prob isn't on the table) with those grafts, so you can take warshaper, and get reach and bonus con. Then take whirling frenzy barbarian, and get an extra attack.

Just fill them so full of poison that half their bodyweight is made of it, and you're sure to be able to do something.

[Stryyke]

You may want to look at the Quiet Murderer (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471361-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Quiet-Murder-(Tempest_Stormwind)) build. It showcases how you can make Spring Attack really worth it (and Spring Attack, although not tumbling is move-in, attack, move-out, which is what you want to do)

The build stub is Scout 4 / Wilderness Rogue 13 / Fighter 1 / Swordsage 2. Having both Scout and Rogue levels means you can trade-in the Rogue's "Trapfinding" ability in exchange for the "Poison Use" ability through Drow Rogue ACF from Drow of the Underdark (being a Drow is not actually required for this ACF).

Perfect build. Just what I was looking for. The only class I'm not familiar with is swordsage. What is the source book for that?

[D&DPrinceTandem]

my poison build i did before was built up to lvl 12

Books needed
Drowsof the underdark
Duengeonscape
Races of destiny
Races of ebberon

Changling
Factotum5, chameleon7
Feats:
1: Able Learner (see if you dm will let you slid on not having this because it is useless to you, if so take Quick change)
3: Combat reflexes
6: Venomous Strike
9: Eldritch Erosion
12: Combat Panache
(later)15: Robilar's Gambit
Chameleon floating feat: Font of inspiration (x40)


What it lets you do i make any poison of yours deadly to anything. How? heres how
first) do a sneak attack
second) trade 39 sneak attack dice for +78 to the poison dc
Third)....
Fourth)Profit?!

[rrwoods]

Perfect build. Just what I was looking for. The only class I'm not familiar with is swordsage. What is the source book for that?
Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords. Check with your DM because it (undeservedly) has a reputation for being overpowered. Thankfully from what I remember, the swordsage levels are pretty late in the Quiet Murder build, so you might even get away with it at a table where the atone isn't typically allowed.

[OldTrees1]

Dang. Ok. Let's focus on eating AoO's then. The fighters in the campaign are just getting brutalized by AoO's.

There is no good way to eat AoOs via provoking AoOs. Spending an AoO on an opportunity is up to the enemy. If you are a difficult enough target that their AoO would be wasted, then they will save their AoO for the easier targets.

The best you can do on this front are:
1) Douse the Flames(1st level White Raven maneuver) & Covering Strike(4th level White Raven maneuver) prevent the hit foe from making any AoOs for 1 or 3 turns.
2) Make the Fighters survive the AoOs
3) Dexterity damage reduces AoOs per round!
4) Have the Fighters stop provoking so many AoOs! What are they doing that results in them provoking so many AoOs?!?

[Stryyke]

There is no good way to eat AoOs via provoking AoOs. Spending an AoO on an opportunity is up to the enemy. If you are a difficult enough target that their AoO would be wasted, then they will save their AoO for the easier targets.

The best you can do on this front are:

3) Dexterity damage reduces AoOs per round!


Perfect. Dex damaging poison will reduce AC AND limit AoOs. Good thought.

As for why they are always eating AoOs, we do a lot of escort/protect missions. When the enemy sends someone around the flank to get the NPC we are protecting, the fighter has to break off to go protect the NPC. It's not always that, but similar situations. We only have 1 fighter, 1 bard, 1 pseudodragon, and 1 . . . I don't know what he is. He doesn't do anything and just keep talking about his deity. That 1 fighter is often moving around trying to protect people and things.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think your best (well, most powerful) bet is a Dual-Plane Summons cleric/ardent theurge, using venomfire and Poison Touch (astral construct ability) on summon monster spells. Summons are much better at taking AoOs than PCs.

[CaPtMalHammer]

3 build options:

1- Swift Hunter (Ranger, Scout) Focus on two weapon fighting. Make sure you take craft poison as a skill, If human the Able Learner feat will help with this.

2- Anything into Dervish- You want a tumbling moving fun build. Dervish is your go to. It allows you to move between each attack and tumble while doing so. It allows you eventually to take 10 even when threatened on tumble checks. Lots of movement. Just add in the ability to craft poisons and there you go.

3- Rogue into Assassin- Classic everyday D and D from 2 core rule books. The ability to craft poisons and sneak attack. Just put ranks into tumble and you are good to go. (have to be Evil though)

hope this helps.

[Diovid]

3- Rogue into Assassin- Classic everyday D and D from 2 core rule books. The ability to craft poisons and sneak attack. Just put ranks into tumble and you are good to go. (have to be Evil though)
Dragon Magazine 312 has an Assassin variant that trades spellcasting for poison-related abilities.

You could always discuss with your DM if that variant can be used with the Avenger prc instead (the Avenger is a non-evil Assassin variant).

Edit: Also, there is a Poison Handbook here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=p4236d6o1ajcjj3ct9s2f7t946&topic=2714.0

[Tohsaka Rin]

Perfect. Dex damaging poison will reduce AC AND limit AoOs. Good thought.

As for why they are always eating AoOs, we do a lot of escort/protect missions. When the enemy sends someone around the flank to get the NPC we are protecting, the fighter has to break off to go protect the NPC. It's not always that, but similar situations. We only have 1 fighter, 1 bard, 1 pseudodragon, and 1 . . . I don't know what he is. He doesn't do anything and just keep talking about his deity. That 1 fighter is often moving around trying to protect people and things.

You should invest in a way of being able to physically throw this guy at the enemies that flank you, you know, to protect your rear/escortee.

Have you heard of the Hulking Hurler? :smallamused:

[OldTrees1]

Perfect. Dex damaging poison will reduce AC AND limit AoOs. Good thought.

As for why they are always eating AoOs, we do a lot of escort/protect missions. When the enemy sends someone around the flank to get the NPC we are protecting, the fighter has to break off to go protect the NPC. It's not always that, but similar situations. We only have 1 fighter, 1 bard, 1 pseudodragon, and 1 . . . I don't know what he is. He doesn't do anything and just keep talking about his deity. That 1 fighter is often moving around trying to protect people and things.

Oh so it is just 1 guy that does a lot of provoking? In that case it sounds like the enemies are nowhere near running out of AoOs, which is a pity since Dex poison might not be enough. However it does mean that there is only 1 PC that is in need of evasive buffs.

Low level: Blur(Bard 2nd level spell)
Mid level: Minor Cloak of Displacement(12,000gp)

That should cut down the number of AoOs that hit by 20%. Teaching the Fighter to try to tumble would stack (at only 1 rank, 12 Dex, & Masterwork Fullplate he has a 15% chance to avoid an AoO). Putting that together 4 ranks in tumble(30%) + Blur(20%) would be 44% to avoid(before checking attack vs AC). Assuming a 20% chance the attack is lower than the AC, that is a grand total of only 45% to be hit(down from 80% without tumbling & blur).

[WhamBamSam]

If you're looking to provoke a lot of AoOs, then the Elusive Target feat in Complete Warrior and the Feigned Opening maneuver (Tome of Battle, available to the aforementioned Swordsage class) are your friends.

For a poisoner, access to Minor Creation is really handy, as it allows you to pump out Black Lotus Extract (which is a vegetable material). I recommend the psionic version, as it's a 1st level power, so you can get it for the price of a Shaper dip or a feat spent on Hidden Talent. Being Psionic also means that you have a psionic focus, which can help you pull off other things. For example Midnight Dodge and Cobalt Expertise (Magic of Incarnum) aren't bad feats for an Elusive Target build, and Psycarnum Infusion can be used to fill one of them up for a turn.

Here's a build that might work for what you're going for, assuming all the sources are allowed.

Azurin Poison Use Feat Rogue 2/PsyWar 2/Hit-and-Run Fighter 2/Unarmed Swordsage 4/Shadow Sun Ninja 10
1. Poison Use Feat Rogue 1 - Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation), Midnight Dodge, Combat Expertise
2. Feat Rogue 2 - Improved Trip
3. PsyWar 1 - Psycarnum Infusion, Psicrystal Affinity
4. PsyWar 2 - Psycrystal Containment
5. Hit-and-Run Fighter 1 - Mobility
6. Fighter 2 - Dodge, Cobalt Expertise
7. Unarmed Swordsage 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
8. Swordsage 2
9. Swordsage 3 - Elusive Target
10. SSN 1
11. SSN 2
12. SSN 3 - Darkstalker
13. SSN 4
14. SSN 5
15. SSN 6 - Knock-Down
16. SSN 7
17. SSN 8
18. SSN 9 - Shadow Blade
19. SSN 10
20. Swordsage 4

Incurs multiclass penalties at level 20 if you play by that rule. The last three feats can be permuted to taste.

Nothing stops you from taking both Dodge and Midnight Dodge (it's just usually not worth it), so this setup lets you choose two dodge targets to mess with via Elusive Target. You have three points of Essentia, which will go into either Midnight Dodge or Combat Expertise. The other can be treated as maximally invested through two rounds of every combat via Psycarnum Infusion and the second Psionic Focus from Psicrystal Containment. Whenever an AoO from your Dodge target misses you (which is often, you've got a decent amount of both AC boosting and concealment in there, not to mention the auto-misses that Elusive Target's Diverting Defense occasionally provides, or even Setting Sun counter maneuvers if you can actually push the results above your AC consistently, which for this build might actually not be the case), you can trip the attacker with Elusive Target's Cause Overreach (which should inhibit their ability to make more AoOs), then stab them with your poisoned sword thanks to Improved Trip (when using Feigned Opening, you also get an AoO). After running through enemy AoOs with your move action, you can make a strike maneuver with your standard (the Shadow Hand discipline has a number that do some form of ability damage which is thematically fitting with your poison schtick) and as long as you do at least 10 damage, you can trip that enemy as well and get another Improved Trip attack.

[Stryyke]

Nice. Great thoughts.