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Stryyke
2016-12-22, 09:19 PM
So I'm starting this new campaign in a few weeks, and throughout the campaign, there are a number of huge battles. 100,000 vs 300,000 in scope. They are extremely important to the campaign, so I want to make sure that they are not only epic in their scope, but fun for the players. I have a few ideas, but I there will be 5-6 major battles. I don't want them getting to the 6th battle and thinking "eh SSDD." So I'm looking for a few new ideas that will keep the epicosity.

Freed
2016-12-22, 10:16 PM
1st battle: Normal.
2nd: siege on somewhere; one side attacks, one defends.
3rd: One side has a death weapon that must be avoided and destroyed during the fight. It can be fired every few turns.
4th: Siege from the sky! Flying airships or dragon riders.
5th: One side is fighting a giant beast controlled by the other side. And I mean like a Tarrasque, being mind controlled by the enemy, made to fight.
6th: A third side joins the fray, maybe joining on side, maybe attacking both.
Use these in any order.
If one doesn't work, tell me and I'll come up with new ones.

Stryyke
2016-12-22, 10:48 PM
1st battle: Normal.
2nd: siege on somewhere; one side attacks, one defends.
3rd: One side has a death weapon that must be avoided and destroyed during the fight. It can be fired every few turns.
4th: Siege from the sky! Flying airships or dragon riders.
5th: One side is fighting a giant beast controlled by the other side. And I mean like a Tarrasque, being mind controlled by the enemy, made to fight.
6th: A third side joins the fray, maybe joining on side, maybe attacking both.
Use these in any order.
If one doesn't work, tell me and I'll come up with new ones.

Those are good ideas. I was really wondering the players role in each battle would be. For instance:

1st Players have to take out a high ranking official
2nd Players Have to fight . . . a tarrasque. That's a good one.
3rd Players focus on moving their armies, more than being directly involved in combat.
4th Players defend their magic users
5th Players lead a flanking battalion
6th Players go whole hog trying to kill as many enemies as possible.
The Final Battle: Players must kill a series of enemy leaders, while being swarmed, culminating in the BBEG.

Something along those lines. Like I said, I have ideas, I just need more ideas. Perhaps better ideas. Though there will be 5-6 major battles, I need to be prepared if the players decide to do more of a "let's conquer everyone" approach.

Stryyke
2016-12-23, 02:10 AM
Goodness. No ideas for how PCs can contribute to major military actions? I know some people out there must have some ideas. Don't be shy. You can see I just used 2 of Freed's ideas, so I'm open to suggestions. I just need some inspiration.

Draconi Redfir
2016-12-23, 03:11 AM
I'd say embrace tropes, they're used for a reason.

Have the PC's forces be forced to retreat over a narrow bridge or into a dungeon to escape an overwhelming force. Now make sure that there is some kind of limit pushing against them. Maybe the engineers need more time to set up the explosives to blow the bridge, or the doors are jammed and need to be closed manually, something that translates to "Some of the enemy force is going to catch up to us and kill us all before we can stop them, then they will just keep coming." or "this thing will prevent the allies from getting where they need to go. they need more time!

You likely have a front-liner like a fighter or a paladin in your party, and in situations like this they shine. One will almost inevitably stay behind to hold off the attackers to buy time for their friends. Bend the rules when this happens, let them attack multiple times each round, pull of trick manoeuvres like grabbing an enemies shield and bashing them in the head with it without needing to make a CMB check, etc. Give them their moment of awesome. It'll likely end in either a glorious death, a sacrificial capture that lets the others escape, or potentially even a rallying call that prompts other soldiers to join the frey and fend off their foes.

Try to limit this to martial characters like fighters or paladins somehow, this is what they live for, this is what any melee character worth their salt dreams of at least once. It just wouldn't be the same if a wizard or a warlock held off the entire horde alone. Try to cripple them in some way, they get hit with a high DC sleep dart, or they fall prey to a trap that cripples them so they need to be carried off, etc.

Some alternate variants of this.

Ally force A is charging through a pass to engage in enemy force B and save an ally force / town / etc. But Enemy force C found out about it somehow, and is racing to flank them. The party needs to race to tell A about the trap, and it quickly becomes apparent that the enemy giving chase is about to catch up...

The Wizard is charged with opening a portal for the army the escape/charge through. He can not be disturbed, but the castle has already been seiged. He must be able to hold the portal long enough for most of his army to make it through!

A small group of survivors from a ravaged settlement are seeking shelter and safety. They attempt to open an underground bunker to wait out the war inside, but an/the enemy has already found it, and is crowded inside pillaging it's resources when the door opens behind them. The civilians need to run, and they won't make it if someone doesn't keep the enemy from giving chase.


Give similar but not identical situations for other classes, give everyone a moment to shine and a moment of awesome. Again, bend the rules for each, let the player do things they normally wouldn't be able to do.

The Wizard is charged with aiding in the casting of a powerful spell that will greatly turn the tide in his favour. As the spell is being channelled, the other wizards around him begin to collapse in exhaustion one by one, only just barely managing to transfer their magic into the other wizards before passing out or dying. In the end the PC is the only one left, holding the power of ten wizards, and a mighty spell that could end the fight in their favour. Let him get creative and go wild, will he use the power to focus a powerful beam down their lines? or cass a mass sleep spell powerful enough to make every enemy collapse? Naturally his hyper power would fade after use.

The Rogue needs to sneak behind enemy lines, assassinating specific targets and guards who suspect something is up. They need to kill someone special, or take something important. Give them many ways to travel and manipulate the mission, if you feel like they're going for something specific (i.e. cutting the leader's throat while he sleeps) make the leader sleepy and just about to turn in for the night.

The Cleric receives a divine vision from his god, he can see an event that will happen in the near futur, but it's cryptic and he needs to decipher it. Or perhaps he prays for divine aid, and receives a powerful artifact or a small army of celestials to command. Perhaps there is a large group of friendly soldiers who have lost their faith and wish to give up, and it's up to him to show them that their gods stand among them, and that they have their aid in this fight.

Stuff like that, give everyone something awesome to do, and don't fret about the game rules to let them do it.

Stryyke
2016-12-23, 03:29 AM
Draconi Redfir

Good stuff. Let me ask a question. Your first scenario, for the melee guys, it's easy enough to just do it at the end of the day and have all of the casters having no spells left. The campaign will likely be martial early, and more magical later. Would you do that scenario early on, when the melee pcs are holding down the fort. It would be very easy to make sure the casters run out of spells then, making way for the melee pcs to shine.

Because it might actually be good to do that later on. When the melee fighters start feeling like the casters are taking over, throw that in to remind everyone why fighters are needed. It would be more difficult to make sure the casters run out of spells, since they will have a lot more resources. I can see it both ways.

Mastikator
2016-12-23, 08:37 AM
Goodness. No ideas for how PCs can contribute to major military actions? I know some people out there must have some ideas. Don't be shy. You can see I just used 2 of Freed's ideas, so I'm open to suggestions. I just need some inspiration.
I can think of a few options.
Give them high rank and lots of influence.
Make them special commandos with missions that greatly benefit their side if they're successful, missions that take place in the war zone.
They don't contribute, they witness and survive. (probably enforce a no-cowardice clause to the players)

Draconi Redfir
2016-12-23, 10:16 AM
Draconi Redfir

Good stuff. Let me ask a question. Your first scenario, for the melee guys, it's easy enough to just do it at the end of the day and have all of the casters having no spells left. The campaign will likely be martial early, and more magical later. Would you do that scenario early on, when the melee pcs are holding down the fort. It would be very easy to make sure the casters run out of spells then, making way for the melee pcs to shine.

Because it might actually be good to do that later on. When the melee fighters start feeling like the casters are taking over, throw that in to remind everyone why fighters are needed. It would be more difficult to make sure the casters run out of spells, since they will have a lot more resources. I can see it both ways.

good question, hard to say. doing it later on does seem like a great idea, though i'm worried the melee characters will feel like they aren't contributing much early on. depends on how you run things i suppose.

Freed
2016-12-23, 03:40 PM
-The PCs have to survive until the rest of the army shows up...
-The PCs have to set up a trap in a certain amount of time as the army fights.
-The army is low on supplies and the PCs must find food before the enemy attacks.

Eldariel
2016-12-23, 04:09 PM
In 3.5, Heroes of Battle suggested that the PCs take part in spec ops. For example, a campaign module features the heroes in a climactic battle for survival: instead of just sitting in the frontline and rolling d20 (where they're just a highly efficient individual soldier, unable to actually affect the outcome of the battle) or casting spells at the mass (which is highly efficient and should be encouraged but not calculated on an individual but on a force-basis), they mostly engage in the pre-battle strategizing (since they're in a high-ranking position due to their combat experience and heroism) and then spec ops events.
The battles in that particular campaign include:
- Taking down Hill Giant "battery" bombarding the defenders' fortifications with rocks from outside bow range
- Stopping enemies breaking through a crack in the wall
- Slaying or forcing back a red dragon lighting fires in the town to incite panic and make the defenders' positions untenable
- Hunting down an assassin/defending the other vital personnel in the city
- Defeating the enemy general and his personal guard

In general, there's little point in having the PCs participate in rolling a d20 each round to kill a mook. Instead, you can gloss over the small fry, and focus on the actual things that make a difference; command structure, troop morale, special units, siege engines (or creatures acting as such) and what the PCs can do to protect and improve their allies' and hurt their enemies'. Of course, e.g. undead or construct troops function differently (no morale concerns, relatively simple commands only), but for humans/humanoids most of this applies.

It's most engaging if the PCs act kinda like Gandalf in the Battle for Minas Tirith; raising the spirits and bringing hope to faltering defenders, blocking breaches and engaging enemy's special forces. Of course, assassinating enemy leaders and wreaking havoc on enemy morale/command structure is equally valid (as well as just mass destruction in enemy ranks; in 3.5 for instance, Cloudkill can do horrifying damage to a troop formation) and the players should have the agency to decide how they spend their time. As well as how they deploy their resources. Then just use relative troop strength numbers to determine how each formation fighting each formation fares and what turns out to be the outcome of the battle - of course, the players' actions have a huge impact on these numbers and thus the allied and the enemy troop strength.

Remedy
2016-12-23, 06:07 PM
One will almost inevitably stay behind to hold off the attackers to buy time for their friends.

...

Try to limit this to martial characters like fighters or paladins somehow, this is what they live for, this is what any melee character worth their salt dreams of at least once. It just wouldn't be the same if a wizard or a warlock held off the entire horde alone.
I find this sentiment amusing, given that arguably the most well-known example of this in all of fantasy has a wizard doing it.

Stryyke
2016-12-23, 06:43 PM
Now we're talking. Some great ideas in there. I can definitely use some of them. Some of those ideas inspired a thought; rather than hunting down and killing the General specifically, in a non-story battle, they could just be required to assassinate someone the enemy General respects. Sending a message to the enemy general.

genmoose
2016-12-23, 07:55 PM
Let me throw in my two cents. I'm currently planning a battle for my PC's where they must defend Trademeet against an incoming ogre and giant army. Maybe a few of the ideas could rub off for your campaign.

So to start I gave the PC's a few days notice that the army is on their way. I then presented them with 7 or 8 different ways they could gather help, but only enough time to do about half of them.

1. Part of the local friendly army has been routed and the survivors gathered nearby. The PC's go there to recruit them to help defend the town and find out that the surviving commander was bribed by the enemy to break and run. The PC's need to expose his treachery and gain the loyalty of his troops.

2. There are rumors of a troupe of paladins in the nearby hills. The PC's travel to recruit them and find out they are hunting a vile Beast of Malar who is too crafty to be caught by mounted paladins. The PC's act as bait and at least hold out until the paladins can arrive or at best slay the beast themselves.

3. The PC's travel to a nearby town to escort a group of gnomish artificers to the town.

4. The PC's hear rumors of a bronze dragon in a nearby mountain range and want to try to recruit him. They find the dragon and he explains he is looking for a group of goblins that have stolen his eggs. If the PC's can recover the eggs from the goblin lair he will aid their cause.

5. The PC's are told of an armory that has been lost behind enemy lines. If they can punch through to the armory they can get enough weapons to arm the townsfolk and aid in the city's defense.

(other missions the PC's didn't pick)

6. Punch through enemy lines and raid supply routes thereby forcing the enemy army to divert some men to secure the rear.

7. Raid a nearby evil wizard's tower to steal his large cache of alchemists fire that can be used by friendly artillery.

8. There are rumors of a nearby ruin that was discovered by a farmer. A scholar from the town identified it as an ancient elvish armory but he went inside and never returned. Inside it's full of deadly undead as well as a trove of elvish magic.


OK so now it's time for battle and I've broken it down into 5 parts.

1. The enemy army doesn't know about the new defenses the PC's procured so they try to storm the castle. The PC's help defend the main all and inflict as many casualties as possible until the bad guys pull back.

2. The city soon comes under artillery attack from several huge catapults (manned by giants). The PC's need to infiltrate the enemy lines and take out the artillery. (A found scroll of control weather should help with this)

3. The attacking army approaches the city in force with a ram and the PC's need to take it out before it can break through the main gate.

4. The enemy manages to circle around and break through a different gate. The PC's need to help repel the incursion and then hopefully make good use of a 'wall of stone' scroll they found to seal up the hole.

5. To disband the horde the PC's are asked to take out the enemy general. Here is where things should get really interesting. It will be dark by then and I think a combination of using their dragon friend to lift them up and spells of feather fall, will turn the PC's into HALO jumpers that can drop in right near the general's tent and hopefully dispatch him and his lieutenants.

6. As a final test (and the PC's should be pretty depleted by now), they need to fight their way back to the town.

I have reinforcements coming at dawn so if the PC's can help hold they town they will be relieved by then.

So far we've done three of the 'preparation' missions and I hope to get into the main battle over the holiday.

Hopefully you can pull some ideas.

General

Stryyke
2016-12-23, 08:11 PM
Let me throw in my two cents. I'm currently planning a battle for my PC's where they must defend Trademeet against an incoming ogre and giant army. Maybe a few of the ideas could rub off for your campaign.

So to start I gave the PC's a few days notice that the army is on their way. I then presented them with 7 or 8 different ways they could gather help, but only enough time to do about half of them.

1. Part of the local friendly army has been routed and the survivors gathered nearby. The PC's go there to recruit them to help defend the town and find out that the surviving commander was bribed by the enemy to break and run. The PC's need to expose his treachery and gain the loyalty of his troops.

2. There are rumors of a troupe of paladins in the nearby hills. The PC's travel to recruit them and find out they are hunting a vile Beast of Malar who is too crafty to be caught by mounted paladins. The PC's act as bait and at least hold out until the paladins can arrive or at best slay the beast themselves.

3. The PC's travel to a nearby town to escort a group of gnomish artificers to the town.

4. The PC's hear rumors of a bronze dragon in a nearby mountain range and want to try to recruit him. They find the dragon and he explains he is looking for a group of goblins that have stolen his eggs. If the PC's can recover the eggs from the goblin lair he will aid their cause.

5. The PC's are told of an armory that has been lost behind enemy lines. If they can punch through to the armory they can get enough weapons to arm the townsfolk and aid in the city's defense.

(other missions the PC's didn't pick)

6. Punch through enemy lines and raid supply routes thereby forcing the enemy army to divert some men to secure the rear.

7. Raid a nearby evil wizard's tower to steal his large cache of alchemists fire that can be used by friendly artillery.

8. There are rumors of a nearby ruin that was discovered by a farmer. A scholar from the town identified it as an ancient elvish armory but he went inside and never returned. Inside it's full of deadly undead as well as a trove of elvish magic.


OK so now it's time for battle and I've broken it down into 5 parts.

1. The enemy army doesn't know about the new defenses the PC's procured so they try to storm the castle. The PC's help defend the main all and inflict as many casualties as possible until the bad guys pull back.

2. The city soon comes under artillery attack from several huge catapults (manned by giants). The PC's need to infiltrate the enemy lines and take out the artillery. (A found scroll of control weather should help with this)

3. The attacking army approaches the city in force with a ram and the PC's need to take it out before it can break through the main gate.

4. The enemy manages to circle around and break through a different gate. The PC's need to help repel the incursion and then hopefully make good use of a 'wall of stone' scroll they found to seal up the hole.

5. To disband the horde the PC's are asked to take out the enemy general. Here is where things should get really interesting. It will be dark by then and I think a combination of using their dragon friend to lift them up and spells of feather fall, will turn the PC's into HALO jumpers that can drop in right near the general's tent and hopefully dispatch him and his lieutenants.

6. As a final test (and the PC's should be pretty depleted by now), they need to fight their way back to the town.

I have reinforcements coming at dawn so if the PC's can help hold they town they will be relieved by then.

So far we've done three of the 'preparation' missions and I hope to get into the main battle over the holiday.

Hopefully you can pull some ideas.

General

Very nice. I can definitely use several of those.

Draconi Redfir
2016-12-24, 01:50 AM
I find this sentiment amusing, given that arguably the most well-known example of this in all of fantasy has a wizard doing it.

Correction: That case has the wizard fighting ONE massive demon-god thing that was all but unstopable.

Were it still that army of Goblins that were chasing them, it likely would have been someone like Gimli fending them off, letting the others escape while at the same time geting revenge on as many goblins as possible.

Kelb_Panthera
2016-12-26, 02:48 AM
Now we're talking. Some great ideas in there. I can definitely use some of them. Some of those ideas inspired a thought; rather than hunting down and killing the General specifically, in a non-story battle, they could just be required to assassinate someone the enemy General respects. Sending a message to the enemy general.

You say "message," I say "martyr."

You're the DM so it's your call but psy-war wise, killing the right guy usually has more impact than just "sending a message." The message you want to send is that "none of your defenses can save you," written in the guts of somebody extremely secure -and- strategically important to the enemy forces or at least high-ranking in the enemy government. Even then it's half-wasted if the enemy leadership can spin it that he died nobly for the cause and that his example should be as a guiding beacon to all the men of <enemy nation/tribe> so make sure that you write in big, bold, splashy fashion.

Pschological warfare is a hell of a game in itself if you know how to do it. Same goes for intelligence.


Oh, and get ahold of a copy of Heroes of Battle ASAP. It's got plenty of stuff for exaclty what you're trying to do here and should prove quite valuable even if you're not playing 3.5.

Pugwampy
2016-12-26, 04:12 AM
This thread fits my Dm personality .

This is a combat scene on my to do list , perhaps you can beat me to it .

Trench warefare game . Get two sets of blocks for either side of the table . I suppose find a shirt or towel to fill in the middle . One trench with baddies and one side with players . Possibly plastic gates infront of both "trenches" ?


==================== Players
====================


<cloth filler>


====================Monsters
====================

Freed
2016-12-28, 12:55 AM
Are the players commanding the troops or directly in the battle?

Stryyke
2016-12-28, 01:39 AM
Are the players commanding the troops or directly in the battle?

I think at least one battle they will control an army, but I think just 1 major battle. I might have them command some troops during minor battles just to introduce it as a concept. Mostly they will be participating in various aspects of the confrontation. I've actually been reading Heroes of Battle to gain some insight, since it was recommended above.