Why the frost giant battle?

[candybarsuvius]

I've read the entire OOTS online and I'm now wondering what the (plot-advancement) purpose of the frost giant battle is. For one thing, it's been pretty protracted. I don't see how it will change things significantly unless the Mechane is stopped altogether, which doesn't seem likely yet. Also, I'm wondering just who managed to enlist the frost giants in the first place, given that not many know about the Order's plan to go to Dwarf World in the first place. Theories:

1) Hel, with the assistance (somehow) of VampDurk, threatened/promised some huge reward to the giants. But that would have to be a pretty powerful inducement, as they are obviously smart and would have known they would suffer massive casualties in the effort.

2) The only real effect is to get Belkar killed. Unlikely, as I think his death (foretold by the Oracle) will be from an act of self-sacrifice, as in the semi-voluntary character development/becoming wiser and un-evil theme. Also honoring Durkon's sacrifice. Besides, when Belkar dies, it'll have to be by taking more than just a few frost giants with him.

3) To either disable the Mechane or get its crew to revolt. This would slow the Order down, but it wouldn't stop them. I was thinking that they could abandon the Mechane and call Uber, but they're in dwarven lands and the dwarves only drive Mini-Coopers--the party wouldn't fit.

4) Somebody else will die/be taken out of action. Unlikely, as the party is already weakened greatly by not having Durkon (or, at least, VampDurk).

5) I think it's very likely that Roy will succeed in his plan to stop VampDurk, very possibly rez Durkon, and set up the final showdown at Whatsis Gate with the party at full strength. Plus, they wouldn't stand much of a chance against Xykon without a high-level Good cleric and healer, so they need Durkon in his original form.

6) Of course, this could be a setup for Roy & Co realizing the hopeless nature of their dual task (1. save the world 2. save the world) and Roy leading his weakened party into a Pickett's Charge against Xykon, with the MitD turning on Xykon just as the Stick is getting crushed. Also, maybe Redcloak and Xykon turning on one another.

I don't think any of these scenarios are all that likely--maybe #6 has a chance--so I'm wondering where this particular story arc is going. Thoughts?

[Gift Jeraff]

I think this will be what causes the Mechane to stop helping the OOTS (after dropping them off at the dwarf town).

[Jasdoif]

Hel, with the assistance (somehow) of VampDurk, threatened/promised some huge reward to the giants. But that would have to be a pretty powerful inducement, as they are obviously smart and would have known they would suffer massive casualties in the effort.Suppose Hel already secured Thrym's support (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html), and the frost giants are following Thrym's commands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1056.html).

[candybarsuvius]

Suppose Hel already secured Thrym's support, and the frost giants are following Thrym's commands.

Possible, but that means that the Thrym-vote single panel was inserted for the sole purpose of justifying a twelve-strip (so far) battle later on. Since the various Northern gods weren't named before or after that strip (with a couple of exceptions), no particular reason is shown why Thrym should embrace the end of the world and all his followers. Also, there aren't that many gods in the Northern pantheon who are gods of a particular race, and it's hard to believe that they would vote to obliterate all of their followers.

I get your point, but it still seems a bit contrived as a plot element--though the "my reasons are my own" suggests that something undisclosed may be going on with the frost giant battle. Maybe Thrym was promised pizza for a year by Hel or something.

[137beth]

Possible, but that means that the Thrym-vote single panel was inserted for the sole purpose of justifying a twelve-strip (so far) battle later on. Since the various Northern gods weren't named before or after that strip (with a couple of exceptions), no particular reason is shown why Thrym should embrace the end of the world and all his followers.

Reason seems pretty obvious IMO: Hel promised Thrym more power in her reorganized Northern Pantheon, and he was happy for the opportunity. Thrym may not be that much different from the Dark One in some sense: he's an underrepresented divine being whose followers have the short-end of the stick, and he's willing to destroy the world (or threaten to) to get more power. The difference being that Thrym's plan is to help a more powerful goddess in exchange for higher status, while the Dark One is going at it alone.
Unless Rat and/or Tiamat are still interested in helping the Dark One, and their defense of him wasn't just a one-time thing.

[factotum]

We don't know, because the plotline isn't finished yet? I'm sure there are people who were wondering why there was an extended scene at the Godsmoot, but that turned out to set up the antagonist and major plot points for the next book.

[candybarsuvius]

We don't know, because the plotline isn't finished yet? I'm sure there are people who were wondering why there was an extended scene at the Godsmoot, but that turned out to set up the antagonist and major plot points for the next book.

That's why I tagged it "guessing." Speculations. Musings. Not knowing but wanting to guess. Wondering. I wasn't looking for some kind of inside information. Obviously, we don't know. But have you never been 2/3 (or 3/4, or 1/900) of the way through a book and speculated on how it might end?

Any extended scene in any kind of dramatic narrative--such as that at the Godsmoot--makes the reader wonder why it's there if it seems tangential to the plot. This does NOT mean that the reader is a bubblehead who doesn't realize that there must be a method to the madness. I wondered why the extended frost giant battle was there--I didn't say there wasn't a reason for it.

[Doctor West]

There is a not insignificant percentage of forum goers who dismiss anything that doesn't seem immediately relevant to the battle against Team Evil as filler, so you'll have to forgive the rest of us for getting defensive about speculation about the narrative purpose of an ongoing scene. :smalltongue:

[Cizak]

Possible, but that means that the Thrym-vote single panel was inserted for the sole purpose of justifying a twelve-strip (so far) battle later on. Since the various Northern gods weren't named before or after that strip (with a couple of exceptions), no particular reason is shown why Thrym should embrace the end of the world and all his followers. Also, there aren't that many gods in the Northern pantheon who are gods of a particular race, and it's hard to believe that they would vote to obliterate all of their followers.

I get your point, but it still seems a bit contrived as a plot element--though the "my reasons are my own" suggests that something undisclosed may be going on with the frost giant battle. Maybe Thrym was promised pizza for a year by Hel or something.

Thrym wants the world to be destroyed, so he voted yes. A party of mortals declare their plans to make sure the "no" side wins the vote. Thrym commans his own loyal mortals to make sure the "yes" side wins. What's contrived?

[M Placeholder]

Thrym wants the world to be destroyed, so he voted yes. A party of mortals declare their plans to make sure the "no" side wins the vote. Thrym commans his own loyal mortals to make sure the "yes" side wins. What's contrived?

Nothing. I like the Frost Giant battle so far. It also shows advancement in another area - Belkar might have undergone character development, but he is still implusive and instead of letting V and Haley handle things, he jumps overboard against the wishes of Roy and gets involved. It also shows that despite his character development, Belkar is still an awful character build wise - if he was built like a halfway decent Ranger, he could have picked them off with a ranged weapon from the deck of the Mechane, and if any giants did get aboard, then Roy would have able backup from Belkar as well as Elan.

As for the "Reasons are my own" from Thrym, I think that might have something to do with the Ordening and if he was convinced to interfere by Surtur, then Thrym might have been trying to convince himself that his vote was his own, and not just bound by the Ordening. Remember, Surtur did say that Hel's plan was no Ragnarok, but he went along with it.

[martianmister]

Bandana is doomed, frost giants will be the final nail on her coffin. :nale:

[Kish]

Counting the strip where the giants appeared at the end, it's been twelve strips so far. I don't think that exactly qualifies as "pretty protracted." Try comparing it to the bandit camp battle.

[137beth]

Counting the strip where the giants appeared at the end, it's been twelve strips so far. I don't think that exactly qualifies as "pretty protracted." Try comparing it to the bandit camp battle.

Obviously the frost giants were in a lot more strips, but the bandits stole all but 12 of them to make it look like the frost giants had fewer appearances than the bandits!

[Celestia]

It could just be a neat battle. This is still a high fantasy epic, especially one derived from D&-"Combat is My Jam"-D. We need some action and death every once in a while.

Though I'm sure it'll be plot relevant or something if that matters, I guess.

[Bongos]

Blue skin tattooed fur bikini wearing battle axe wielding frost giant warrior woman!

What more reason do you need!?!

[Celestia]

Blue skin tattooed fur bikini wearing battle axe wielding frost giant warrior woman!

What more reason do you need!?!
None at all. :smallamused:

[BeerMug Paladin]

You failed to suggest another possibility for the battle. Split the party. Belkar is pretty far behind the Mechane as of 1061, Haley and V are no longer airborne, and although Roy and Elan are still aboard the Mechane, unless it comes down it is unlikely they will be landing or returning to the others in any way.

If the Mechane survives the fight, it is not apparent that the group will be reuniting. The crew cannot turn back for them and after this event are unlikely to want to stop and wait for the others to catch up. Hopefully Haley has some useful wands to help survive.

Even if the Mechane is brought down by the fight, the strips suggest that the group could still be spread over a sufficiently broad enough area in total to still have the party split.

[TheNecrocomicon]

To be fair, it makes sense for the Order to face opposition going from the Godsmoot to pursue Lurkon into the dwarven lands; there was no way that was going to go perfectly smoothly. And it is a novel way for the Order to be fighting, I can't recall any other time where they've been fighting a largely airborne battle, or one from a moving platform like the Mechane (except maybe the sea trolls and a bunch of other offpanel skirmishes guarding the ragtag fugitive Azurite fleet).

Even though I still have issues with the fact that, in real time, the party has been inching their way through this battle for four months, and it will probably take several more strips to resolve the immediate threat, so there had better be serious narrative consequences from this scene if the intent is to make it feel worthwhile. By now, the Order may well arrive to find Lurkon and Associates having long since vamped/dominated the entire dwarven council-of-elders, or at least a small army of dwarven citizens.

[Snails]

As Elan has said in some strip some time ago, there is always exactly one "wandering monster" encounter for every significant journey between important locations.

In this case, the DM has something specific in mind, suggested by the story situation, rather than rolling on a wilderness table.

I, for one, would be disappointed if an entire half a pantheon that voted for destruction sat on their hands while the fate of the world hung in the balance. I would also expect at least a minor contribution from the anti-destruction faction, just to show that these gods can be somewhat effectual through their minions when they mean business.

[M Placeholder]

I, for one, would be disappointed if an entire half a pantheon that voted for destruction sat on their hands while the fate of the world hung in the balance. I would also expect at least a minor contribution from the anti-destruction faction, just to show that these gods can be somewhat effectual through their minions when they mean business.

Looking at the gods that voted no, and the ones that voted yes, then I can't see any of the anti destruction faction being able to mount anything like Thrym and the Frost Giants. Considering that the Patrons of two races are in the Yes camp, and the Frost giants were likely to be able to mobilize without too much hassle considering the area of the world, its hard to see any of the gods that voted no doing the same. Could any of them have an entire race to order?

[candybarsuvius]

You failed to suggest another possibility for the battle. Split the party. Belkar is pretty far behind the Mechane as of 1061, Haley and V are no longer airborne, and although Roy and Elan are still aboard the Mechane, unless it comes down it is unlikely they will be landing or returning to the others in any way.

I "failed" to suggest this because if the narrative object was to split the party yet again, then it could have been done in less convoluted and more effective fashion. Haley has wands, V can recharge, etc. so even if the party is littered all over the mountains at the end of the battle, they can re-form relatively easily. It's not like the previous situations where the party was split by huge distances and didn't even know where the others were.

Also, the story is coming to some kind of a climax, and when the Big Battle occurs, the Order will need to be at full strength (whether or not that includes a rezzed Durkon), so I can't see any narrative purpose to splitting up the party and then spending half a dozen strips showing how they manage to get back together. There might be some point in showing how they were slowed down to the point where they weren't able to stop the dwarves from being dominated by VampDurk, but that could have happened anyway--that they just didn't get there in time, even without the frost giant battle delay.

I guess my reaction is that it seems as if things are being unnecessarily drawn out, and since I'm pretty sure that that isn't the case, my curiosity is piqued as to what purpose this extended scene serves in the entire narrative. Of course, female frost giants in fur bikinis are enough of a reason in and of themselves...

[TheNecrocomicon]

Looking at the gods that voted no, and the ones that voted yes, then I can't see any of the anti destruction faction being able to mount anything like Thrym and the Frost Giants. Considering that the Patrons of two races are in the Yes camp, and the Frost giants were likely to be able to mobilize without too much hassle considering the area of the world, its hard to see any of the gods that voted no doing the same. Could any of them have an entire race to order?

Also, since part of the author's message seems to be that gods are self-absorbed beings who generally don't care for their followers and aren't worth worshipping, perhaps the lack of intervention by the anti-world-destruction camp is deliberate to ensure that they (and their associated church organizations) come across as profoundly inept and ineffectual within the narrative.

Why else do you think Thor is constantly drunk off his ass, Odin is always portrayed as an idiot, and a good many others like Hel are outright evil? There are no redeeming characteristics shown about the gods because the author doesn't want to show any.

The other deities in this setting do have powerful followers that they can mobilize, but they sit back and let the world hang on the actions of a few mortals because they can't be bothered to really care. The Godsmoot is the first instance of them really caring what happens, and even then, the conversation is between the gods and they take no notice whatsoever of what the puny mortal beings think, want or care about. Meanwhile, the only real solution being proposed among the gods is flipping the proverbial table to start the world anew.

[Darth Paul]

To be fair, it makes sense for the Order to face opposition going from the Godsmoot to pursue Lurkon into the dwarven lands; there was no way that was going to go perfectly smoothly. And it is a novel way for the Order to be fighting, I can't recall any other time where they've been fighting a largely airborne battle, or one from a moving platform like the Mechane (except maybe the sea trolls and a bunch of other offpanel skirmishes guarding the ragtag fugitive Azurite fleet).
And there's two excellent reasons for the battle; it makes narrative sense for the heroes to face opposition to reach the goal (if they didn't have to do heroic things in order to save the world, and overcome heroic obstacles on the way, then why would heroes be needed in the first place?) and it's also a unique battle format showcasing the powers of the reunited Order (minus Lurkon) and their new, higher power levels.



Even though I still have issues with the fact that, in real time, the party has been inching their way through this battle for four months, and it will probably take several more strips to resolve the immediate threat, so there had better be serious narrative consequences from this scene if the intent is to make it feel worthwhile. By now, the Order may well arrive to find Lurkon and Associates having long since vamped/dominated the entire dwarven council-of-elders, or at least a small army of dwarven citizens.

But how long has it been in-comic? Rounds? Not long enough to be significant in an evil plan that takes hours or days to execute. The Mechane was going this way anyway, the battle didn't change that. Only if the OotS lose will it affect the larger narrative.

It may only take 8 or 15 minutes to read through this battle in book form, which is largely visual and will go faster than a lot of exposition strips. In fact, allow me to hazard that the narrative purpose is partly to be an antidote to all the recent exposition (which a lot of forumites were griping on about) and instead to BE a big, badass action sequence!

Plus, giants in fur bikinis were mentioned. :smallamused:

[factotum]

Even though I still have issues with the fact that, in real time, the party has been inching their way through this battle for four months, and it will probably take several more strips to resolve the immediate threat, so there had better be serious narrative consequences from this scene if the intent is to make it feel worthwhile.

That's the old problem of viewing a continuous storyline with large gaps in between each segment. If you were reading this entire battle so far without those gaps it would take you a matter of minutes, which is more representative of the actual amount of time in-comic it's taken for it to happen; if you were reading this in a novel form this entire scene would probably have taken three or four pages at most.

[Emanick]

That's the old problem of viewing a continuous storyline with large gaps in between each segment. If you were reading this entire battle so far without those gaps it would take you a matter of minutes, which is more representative of the actual amount of time in-comic it's taken for it to happen; if you were reading this in a novel form this entire scene would probably have taken three or four pages at most.

Not if it was R.A. Salvatore. :smallamused:

[Kish]

Even though I still have issues with the fact that, in real time, the party has been inching their way through this battle for four months, and it will probably take several more strips to resolve the immediate threat, so there had better be serious narrative consequences from this scene if the intent is to make it feel worthwhile. By now, the Order may well arrive to find Lurkon and Associates having long since vamped/dominated the entire dwarven council-of-elders, or at least a small army of dwarven citizens.
You realize that makes no sense, right? It's been twelve strips. Less than two minutes of in-comic time. Rich has said repeatedly that he's not going to adjust his story based on the speed at which the strips go up on the website. If you cannot or will not distinguish "this is taking a long time to go up in real-time" from "this is an extended protracted scene," you should stop reading the online strip until the next print book comes out, at which point you can read it at the speed the in-comic events unfold without your brain playing "it's been weeks since anything changed, that means weeks of Greg advancing his scheme!" tricks on you.

[candybarsuvius]

You realize that makes no sense, right? It's been twelve strips. Less than two minutes of in-comic time. Rich has said repeatedly that he's not going to adjust his story based on the speed at which the strips go up on the website. If you cannot or will not distinguish "this is taking a long time to go up in real-time" from "this is an extended protracted scene," you should stop reading the online strip until the next print book comes out, at which point you can read it at the speed the in-comic events unfold without your brain playing "it's been weeks since anything changed, that means weeks of Greg advancing his scheme!" tricks on you.

Why is it that on the internet, people feel free to act in ways that in real life, would get them a punch in the mouth? You realize that it's pretty condescending to imply that he can't comprehend the fact that the strips go up at long intervals and thus, real time can't be expected to match the story line, don't you?

Making snide remarks about the limitations of someone's intellects or perceptions (which remarks are uninformed and therefore stupid) is what keeps internet nerdies at their keyboards in Mommy's basement instead of going out and interacting with the world. If you will be meeting with family this Christmas, try telling someone that because they disagree with you, their brain must have been playing tricks on them or they don't have the mental acuity to distinguish concepts. Unlike on the internet, though, you'll have to be prepared to duck.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Why is it that on the internet, people feel free to act in ways that in real life, would get them a punch in the mouth?...
(which remarks are uninformed and therefore stupid) is what keeps internet nerdies at their keyboards in Mommy's basement instead of going out and interacting with the world.

You may have just won this thread's irony award.

[Snails]

Looking at the gods that voted no, and the ones that voted yes, then I can't see any of the anti destruction faction being able to mount anything like Thrym and the Frost Giants. Considering that the Patrons of two races are in the Yes camp, and the Frost giants were likely to be able to mobilize without too much hassle considering the area of the world, its hard to see any of the gods that voted no doing the same. Could any of them have an entire race to order?

I agree with you.

The point is not that the anti's bring an army. The point is that the pantheon demonstrate the potential to sway real world events, when there is no reason to keep cards close to one's vest anyone, as their mortal followers on this plane are basically disposable.

In this case, it is really only Greg that we expect to be a real challenge. These giants are not going to beat the Order, but they might get lucky and cause enough damage to the Mechane to delay the Order to some degree of apparent effect. On the anti side, I would like to see that there are people out there trying, even if all they can offer is a few healing potions and a jug of wine in the wake of a battle the Order wins by their own efforts.

[Kish]

Or for that matter, we could come in on the tail end of (e.g.) Greg's forces slaughtering a group of Sif's followers without significantly more or less difficulty than the Order has slaughtering the frost giants.

(But I think the frost giant battle likely has more to do with the developing tension between Andi and Captain Bandana.)

[Keltest]

Looking at the gods that voted no, and the ones that voted yes, then I can't see any of the anti destruction faction being able to mount anything like Thrym and the Frost Giants. Considering that the Patrons of two races are in the Yes camp, and the Frost giants were likely to be able to mobilize without too much hassle considering the area of the world, its hard to see any of the gods that voted no doing the same. Could any of them have an entire race to order?

Between Thor, Odin and Loki, they could conceivably mobilize the vast majority of the Dwarven nation if they were so inclined to do so. Now, WHAT they would mobilize them to do is an interesting question, because sending your followers on a witch hunt for followers of another god is probably up there on the List of Things Deities Shall Not Do For Fear of Open Warfare Between The Gods.

[candybarsuvius]

You may have just won this thread's irony award.

Nice try. My remarks about a general class/group of people and how they behave are not the same as specific attacks by one individual upon another.

You may want to look up "irony" (on the internet, of course).

[candybarsuvius]

Between Thor, Odin and Loki, they could conceivably mobilize the vast majority of the Dwarven nation if they were so inclined to do so. Now, WHAT they would mobilize them to do is an interesting question, because sending your followers on a witch hunt for followers of another god is probably up there on the List of Things Deities Shall Not Do For Fear of Open Warfare Between The Gods.

Well, as has been pointed out, in the OOTS universe, the gods are stupid and lazy and quite often, don't even act in their own best interests, let alone those of their followers. A rather apt allegory, though certainly unintentional, for the current pantheon of gods that are about to seize absolute power in the United States.

I do wonder, though, why any race would willingly follow its god's orders if doing so would hasten their own destruction. After all, it's a buffet of gods out there. The frost giants should tell Thrym to get bent and switch to worshiping Fluffy, the goddess of bunnies, or something.

[Keltest]

Well, as has been pointed out, in the OOTS universe, the gods are stupid and lazy and quite often, don't even act in their own best interests, let alone those of their followers. A rather apt allegory, though certainly unintentional, for the current pantheon of gods that are about to seize absolute power in the United States.

I do wonder, though, why any race would willingly follow its god's orders if doing so would hasten their own destruction. After all, it's a buffet of gods out there. The frost giants should tell Thrym to get bent and switch to worshiping Fluffy, the goddess of bunnies, or something.

Following that train of thought for a moment, why would Thrym tell them what the ultimate goal is? He can just say "These guys are working against me, do your best to stop them".

[Peelee]

Nice try. My remarks about a general class/group of people and how they behave are not the same as specific attacks by one individual upon another.

You may want to look up "irony" (on the internet, of course).

"I'm better because I insult large groups of people instead of just one at a time."

Imean, I guess you do get points for efficiency, even if you then lose them for lack of originality.

[candybarsuvius]

{Scrubbed}

[candybarsuvius]

Following that train of thought for a moment, why would Thrym tell them what the ultimate goal is? He can just say "These guys are working against me, do your best to stop them".

Yeah, but the frost giants had a representative at the Godsmoot, so they know that Thyrm voted for the destruction of the world. That's a real weakness of this plot arc--that races whose gods voted for their destruction would cooperate with that plan, never mind actively rebel against it. If they succeed in stopping the Order, that makes it all the more likely that they'll all die, so they should actually be putting up signposts to guide them through the pass and leaving out plates of giant-sized cookies and cups of hot cocoa.

(Horrible thought--is Santa actually a frost giant???)

[An Enemy Spy]

Didn't say one was better than the other--you might want to work on your reading comprehension. I just said that your "irony" comment was sadly, pathetically, stupidly, moronically inaccurate and misplaced. Merry Christmas.

If you talk like this in real life I can see why you're so knowledgeable on the subject of having punches thrown at you.

[candybarsuvius]

If you talk like this in real life I can see why you're so knowledgeable on the subject of having punches thrown at you.

And if you make remarks like that, I can see why you know so much about throwing punches.

Silly internet child-talk.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Didn't say one was better than the other--you might want to work on your reading comprehension. I just said that your "irony" comment was sadly, pathetically, stupidly, moronically inaccurate and misplaced. Merry Christmas.

Hold on a moment, Peelee's not the one who made that comment. In this case, I'm the pathetic moron. :smallbiggrin:

Or at least I would be, if you understood irony. Chanukah Samaech!

[An Enemy Spy]

And if you make remarks like that, I can see why you know so much about throwing punches.

Silly internet child-talk.

I feel like you thought that was some kind of burn, but as a comeback it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

As a quick aside, I actually have had punches thrown at me in public. Not for anything I said, mind you. The guy was just a bully who wanted to pick a fight with a complete stranger at a gas station for no good reason. He sucker punched me in the back of the head and I gave him one to the nose that put him on his back and then he ran away, not surprising since people like that are usually cowards who try to intimidate people to make themselves feel tough. I'm not bragging btw, just sharing an anecdote since we're on the subject.

[Peelee]

you might want to work on your reading comprehension.

Ya know, someone else really said it better than I.

You may have just won this thread's irony award.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked. Please be civil on this Forum and follow the Forum Rules.